AlaskanSandman

Thank you for you work and bringing us all together btw! Totally miss your old theory videos and general discussions

A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun. But it did no good to brood on lost battles and roads not taken. That was a vice of old done men. Rhaegar had wed Elia of Dorne, Lyanna Stark had died, Robert Baratheon had taken Cersei to bride, and here they were. And tonight his own road would take him to his niece's chambers and face-to-face with Cersei. Cersei and Kevan are the only ones to think about Lyanna. With Cersei never mentioning Elia. It seems Cersei viewed Lyanna as more a threat than Elia. Kevan seemed to think the same for some reason. So two options. A. Rhaegar liked Lyanna more than his wife and cheated. (Leaving your wife even in divorce for another woman I think may still classify. Maybe not) B. Cersei and Kevan were not privy or a part of Tywins plan. Did Tywin tell Kevan, Cersei, or Jamie of his Red Wedding plot? It doesn't seem like any except maybe Jamie were aware. Jamie only because he crossed paths with Roose Bolton. Though, he may not have known how it would play out. Id have to look more to see if any of them mention prior knowledge.

The House of Black and White want to kill the Sea Lord of Braavos using Arya. The House of Black and White seems a minority faction compared to the Moonsingers. Plus one of them is in Old Town after Maester Walgraves key. Varys had the Dothraki he wanted to invade also which lovvvve slaves. Mix in Hardhome which I long ago wrote about and suspected as being hit for Slavery by slavers or dragon lords coming for slaves for their mines. Im more and more thinking this is the actual Narrative. Events in Westeros were about to become more embroiled in foreign affairs.

The Targaryen alliance. Which included the North, and Giving them more land and a new wall. With Mance coming south, and Tormund coming south to father Alyane. Mix in that salve traders have discovered wildlings make good slaves. Im thinking the Targaryen's were going to expand into Essos and Aerys needed a full kingdom alliance so his efforts could be focused abroad. Martells are typically Targaryen loyalist since they wed into the family a long time ago. This leaves me to suspect Illyrio and Varys (Who had come to court after Duskendale) and who are ok with slave trading from what we can tell. Old Town must have been in alliance with the Slave Traders. Mance's red silk slash im thinking more and more is an agreement between Mance and Rhaegar having to do with this slavery issue and possibly the Others.

Sorry forgot this. Lyanna im sure was at Harrenhal, and Kevan was at Harrenhal. Just not Tywin. Jamie was present. No mention of Cersei so I assume she stayed at the Rock with Tywin.

I def need to flush the theory out more. I get the impression the Targaryen alliance minus Lannisters had to do with expanding into Essos which may have threated the slave trade. Tywin teaming up with Braavos makes sense, but Oberyn has ties to Old Town, and Volantis that I don't fully understand yet. That is an interesting point about Peter and Lysa, except who back then was like Baelish to do such a thing. Varys was around Im not sure if I see Aerys being merciful after how horrible he supposedly was. I would think hed let him burn. Getting close enough to a man burning of wildfire to cut his head off may risk your life and spreading the uncontrollable fire. Ned was a teen and never been good at mysteries really. Plus, why would he know. I think he suspects something, but anything provable Robert has just turned down. And Jamie I think just keeps to the lie. He does wonder why he's telling Brienne. Like maybe its a practiced story, but who cares about telling her, since shes no one important anyways. Jamie not telling Ned that Aerys was about to blow up the city with all of them in it, seems odd. Jamie just literally saved Ned and could rub it in his face. Saved a million at least.

I do wonder why we don't here of any houses speak of this ancient enemy. Seems Mel is the only one aware besides the Watch.

Its worth pointing out that the only Lannister who thinks about Lyanna at all. Is Cersei, who seems to think that Lyanna is why she wans't able to marry Rhaegar. Something her father told her? Is she ignorant to the fact that Rhaegar wed Elia Martel years before and already had two kids. Tyrion, Jamie, and Tywin don't seem to mention Lyanna at all. Like they know Lyanna really meant nothing to Rhaegar, or the War.

Rhaegar didn't fund Harrenhal. Tywin Lannister did, framing Rhaegar who was friends with Oswell Whent. Drawing Aerys out into public allowing people to see Aerys and his long unkept hair and nails. Due to his paranoia driven by Tywin and Duskendale. Tywin sat back at the Rock and with a few carefully placed messages and actions, stoked Roberts Rebellion. Tywin also settled the dispute between Aerys and Braavos, by secretly being funded by Braavos to take down the Targaryens. Which is partially why Tywin is in debt to them. Tywin who with a couple well placed moves. Put in Jeyne Westerling to break up Robbs alliance with the Freys, while poisoning Jeyne so she couldn't have kids. Then allowing Walder Frey who was dishonored by Robb, to kill him at a wedding with reassurances from Tywin and House Lannister. It fits his MO I doubt Walder knew that Jeyne was just a ploy of Tywins, playing Walder for a fool.

If things had gone right. Lyanna would be married to the Baratheons, Targaryen loyalist, and cousins. Rhaegar would be married to Elia Martell. Brandon would be married to Cat. And Jon Arryn would be loyal to Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon. With House Tyrell already loyal to the Targaryen's. The Lannisters were the only ones left out till magically, for no reason. Rhaegar supposedly kidnapps his cousins bride and sets off the war. Which happened to benefit Tywin and get him everything he wanted. His daughter married to the King. Edit- Iron born were Targaryen loyalist and only rebelled under Robert and no Dragon Kings. Double Edit- Im sure Aerys could've secured House Tyrell by wedding Maegery to Viserys when both had come of age.

I mention that plausibility in my thread that Bran was given a watered down version due to his age. Yet cat says Brandon was hung while his father watched, then his father was killed. Why kill Rickard after Brandon had been hung to death when Rickard was already supposedly burning to death. Redundant to do. Then there is the issue of the uncontrollability of wildfire to be using it in the Throne room with out burning the floor and everything in there. Tyrion accidentally lights his own ships on fire even. Then we are told wildfire cannot be put out easily and usually has to just burn it self out. So how is Aerys just burning people? Barristan never thinks of Aerys as burning people and he served him. Only Lannister men are saying it and it makes it less than trust worthy to me. If Lyanna really ran off with Rhaegar, she was doomed from the get go. Didn't matter if Rhaegar saved her from her father. Dorne would kill her for the slight to Elia. Walder Frey did the same to Robb for his slight. It betrays reason and logic for Rhaegar and Lyanna to think there was any happy ending to their alleged love affair. If they even had one.

That mad lads a different story

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII "And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII "They strangled Brandon while his father watched, and then killed Lord Rickard as well." A Dance with Dragons - The Discarded Knight Gingerly, so gingerly, the seneschal approached the head, lifted it delicately by the hair. "Admiral Groleo." Ser Barristan glanced toward the throne. He had served so many kings, he could not help but imagine how they might have reacted to this provocation. Aerys would have flinched away in horror, likely cutting himself on the barbs of the Iron Throne, then shrieked at his swordsmen to cut the Yunkishmen to pieces. Robert would have shouted for his hammer to repay Bloodbeard in kind. Even Jaehaerys, reckoned weak by many, would have ordered the arrest of Bloodbeard and the Yunkish slavers.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/ If your not interested in reading my theory where i've quoted who says what. You can search yourself. Its only coming from specific people who hate the Targaryens. Not even the Starks, who have reason to hate the Targaryens think Aerys burned Rickard. They think Rickard was beheaded. They have his body. So idk why they wouldn't think he was torched if he really was.

Though your point about Rhaegar seeking out the ghost of Highheart is an interesting idea. He would know of Jenny of Old Stone and of the Ghost of Highheart likely. Having learned about her in the Riverlands would make sense. Him setting out with his friends could have been simply to find her, and have nothing to do with Lyanna. Rhaegar could simply make an offer to Rickard before kidnapping one of his fathers loyal lords. Rickard had visited K.L. and Aerys wanted to extend his lands.

I have a hard time believing Aerys was burning people with Wildfire in his Throne Room only Lannister men are reporting that. Cat and Bran report no such thing. Jamie never once says as much to Ned unlike the show. Jamie is also a liar so i wouldn't believe when he tells Brienne. Barristan question what Aerys would do over something and thinks he would have the guy cut down. Not burned. Barristan never once mentions or thinks about Aerys burning people alive. We are instead told how dangerous, unpredictable, and hard to put out wildfire is. Yet Aerys is using it in his Throne room. The Lannisters accounts, Yandel, and Pycell cannot be trusted. Tywin's wife had hooked up with Aerys. Tywin's marriage proposal was spurned, and Jamie made a kingsguard. Tywin was coming for blood and revenge and made up lies, and started the war by framing Rhaegar. Tywin's greatest gift is his ability at chess.

Space balls is by far my favorite movie that this trope is used in. Princess Vespa and Prince Valium hahah

I could've listed a ton more examples and there are variations of them. Like Belle and Gaston in Beauty and the Beast. In Wedding Crashers, main chick was engaged to a cheater. I could go on but really, it is an old trope. Cersei is hardly the most logical rulers out there. Robert for all his supposed fury, never sent assassins' after Viserys and Daenerys. It took his council urging him before he finally thought about it, but then regrets it and orders it stopped upon his death bed. Robert is not a cruel man. A drunkard yes, a womanizer, yes. A cruel man, no. Thats why people loved him. He forgave his enemies. I think Ned thinking of Broken promises after Jon is safe from dead Robert pretty much kills the idea that Jon is who he was protecting and failed to protect. The other broken promise if it involved Jon at all probably involved telling Jon the truth, not just lying to him. Though with Robert making him "promise". It brings to mind the idea that the "promises" were not to one woman. Ashara is still a moving cog in the machine.

Im beginning to question the entire "Canon" narrative we are told. Including Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, Aerys burned people in his Throne Room with Wildfire, Daenerys is who she thinks she is, and very much more considering Mance as Jon's father. Making Jon, completely of the Ice faction with no ties to the Fire side. The more and more I look at Tywins actions in breaking up Rob's alliance with the Frey's makes me think of Tywin breaking up the Alliance the Starks had with the Targaryens. Rickard visits Aerys and Aerys then wants to extend the North and build a second wall north of the main wall by 100 miles. Aerys then wants to build aquaducts in Dorne. With who Rhaegar weds into via Elia Martell. How to break up the Martell and Stark alliance with house Targaryen? Frame Rhaegar for kidnapping Lyanna and dishonoring Elia Martell. Sansa being kidnapped by Bael(ish) when having been linked to Loras at the Tourney, makes me think of Lyanna being linked to Rhaegar via the Tourney, but being taken by Abel/Bael-Mance. Tormund also takes Maege Mormont and fathers Alysane who even has his crooked teeth smile. Making me think the Wilding right of passage is to go south of the Wall and take a lords daughter like Bael did. Pycell, Yandel, and Lannisters are to blame for the "Canon" narrative imo.

Not low born in that she is a lords daughter, but not queen. Its a trope and cliche used in manyyyyy chick flicks and rom cons. It a cliche and and old trope. If Robert killed Jon at the wall, why would the Watch ever feel safe or anyone going to the watch. It would disrupt thousands of years of establishment. Sending Eddard to the Wall, Janos Slynt, or anybody becomes pointless. I would think the Lord Commander would be the next to die, from his own men for lack of protection. The Whole reason to send Jon to the Wall is to keep him safe, and he is. Ned thinks of Broken promises. His promise being to allegedly protect someone. The only person at that point he failed to protect was Daenerys. Not John. Robert was dead and Jon forever safe from his wrath. Makes no sense to my mind.

I do try to keep my eyes open for the R+L=J theory. How it would work or what clues would work for it. Which is why i asked if the possible "Storm" dany reports from Viserys that hit Dragonstone, wasn't a literal "Storm" but a "Storm of Swords" or a battle. Viserys is seen as possibly unreliable in his memories when compared to Jamies thoughts or the lack of blocks in a castle built of fused stone when describing the storm tearing blocks from Dragonstone. Along with never being described as being torn up by battle. The blocks he is hearing is stones being thrown at Dragonstone to try to bring it down, but failing. Im currently trying to dissect what Rhaegar could have been up to, even if it involved Lyanna. There are so many moving wheels that are puzzling. Like House Hightower and there part in things, with the Martell wanting to attack them. Bran reports Rickon being beheaded but else where they report he was burned to death. I imagine Aerys using Wildfire in the thone room, and the wildfire not getting out of hand and burning the whole place down. Yet, it supposedly happened at Summerhall. Something seems off. Though maybe they just lied to Bran to spare him the details. Maybe Aerys had a way to put out Wildfire soon as it was done burning exactly what he wanted it to burn and no more. There are other things that Im curious about, but am not beholden to any one theory exclusively.

I would think we would hear about Rhaegar being in a cult. They have no problem insulting the Targaryen's else wise. Yandel is writing a history book for the Lannisters. To paint the Targaryens as evil as possible to justify Roberts Rebellion and subsequent marriage to Cersei, leading to Tommen, would make sense. Word of Stannis and Selyse hooking up with the Red Woman, on an Island, made it way to court in the song of little birds. I would think that Rhaegar having a cult would make the rounds of gossip.

I agree that it's an old fairy tale trope. The low born girl who steals away the man with a woman not worth him. Whether its she's just mean, a cheater, or some cliche thing. If Lyanna had time to meet the guy beyond a quick encounter, then maybe she would give him a chance. Assuming Lyanna is more like Arya rather than Sansa. Though we are not given this impression. We are told Lyanna would have wielded a sword if her father had allowed it, as Arya now has needle. Arya, seems very little interested in "Love" "Princesses" or "Married men". I don't think the set up is there despite a few misleading quotes from Ned. A Game of Thrones - Eddard VIII "We may not have a fortnight. We may not have a day. The king mentioned something about seeing my head on a spike." Ned frowned. He did not truly believe the king would harm him, not Robert. He was angry now, but once Ned was safely out of sight, his rage would cool as it always did. Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion … and there was the other matter, the business with Catelyn and the dwarf that Yoren had warned him of last night. That would come to light soon, as sure as sunrise, and with the king in such a black fury … Robert might not care a fig for Tyrion Lannister, but it would touch on his pride, and there was no telling what the queen might do. A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. "Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east." There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not. First time in years, though he just thought about him the other day. Im not sure Ned is a reliable narrator despite all the confidence in his thoughts. He uncomfortably thought Rhaegar? Why uncomfortably? Thinking of any body my sisters have been with, even the jerks, doesn't make me uncomfortable. The threat of Robert to Jon? Jon is beyond the touch of Kings now. He's on the Wall, given up all lands, all titles, any children. Jon is safe and far from Roberts radar. The only child Eddard fears for in regards to Robert, is Daenerys, and maybe Viserys. All the rest of what i typed is more or less to point out the logistics of them actually hooking up would mean. Nothing good. Its a feudal world and things don't work like that.

I know Viserys is used as a faulty narrator when speaking about Dragonstone. While I havn't come up with an explanation for Jamie and Viserys remembering the flight to Dragonstone different, but I had a thought I was curious if had been considered or mentioned before. That the greatest storm to ever hit Dragonstone, was not a literal storm. Hence why Stannis, Davos, and everybody else fails to mention a storm. The "Storm" was the Baratheons sieging the Island. Storms End being the end of the Andal Storm possibly (built to defend against the Andals), "Storm" being a metaphor for war. Like a Storm of Swords. If Dany and Viserys got away from Dragonstone before the "Storm" sank all the ships, then it would explain some of what happened on Dragonstone. Especially a Storm happening in Summer despite them getting storms in the fall and winter. I still tend to think Jamie didn't actually see the Queen leave and that Viserys is remembering correctly. Yet, this would explain the Storm of Dragonstone, and preserve the integrity of his memories. He seems to get most everything else right about Westeros

Just like Jamie tells Brienne of how he saved the City by killing the King. Both Brienne and Jamie being King Slayers, and Brienne being Dunks descendant explains Summerhall. Dunk is a king slayer. GRRM doesn't just throw the clues for these characters in other peoples chapters willy nilly, he puts it in their chapters to the character it matters to. This is why Daenerys, has a plot steeped in Lemon Trees and Dorne, and Jon has one steeped in the North. Daenerys is the child of Rhaegar, and why she sees herself as Rhaegar in her visions.