Jump to content


  • Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by AlaskanSandman

  1. If you except the fact that you are being mislead, then the picture changes. Like Andals building round towers. When there are no round towers in Pentos, a mostly andal city. Also, there are no ruined castles with round towers mentioned in Essos near Andalos. The Aryns only built theirs after visiting the castles of Westeros. The Maesters are either purposely or accidentally reporting history wrong. The Andals are who broke the pact during the Age of Heroes that was established between the First Men and the Cotf
  2. Yet there are clear hints that the Andals were there then, Like Lann the Clever being an Andal, or the descendant of an Andal. Through Floys the Fox or Rowan Goldtree, which connects House Gardener who is off having Tourney's with Knights and dragon slayers. Also the castles having round towers among other things.
  3. I still think the Age of Heroes was the beginning or early migration of Andals. Akin to the Anglo-Saxon migration to England before the Viking invasion. Both groups being part of the Germanic families as opposed to the Celtic societies they invaded in England. The Valyrian invasion is akin to the Romans who in Norse culture were called the Vallir people in the Kingdom of Val. Using the spelling themes of the Romans found in Hispania, you turn Val or Valir, into Valiria/ Valyria. Who likewise built roads that they became famous for.
  4. I would say based on what we've seen thus far. He is unpredictable. For some one like Doran who probably feels that he can predict most peoples actions, has a hard time predicting Darkstar. As Darkstar has few loyalties and belongs to a cadet branch of a major house. Meaning he's probably a schemer who is looking to rise in ranks. Meaning that the only thing Doran can count on with Dark Star, is that he is dangerous. Like how Roose should never have been trusted. Anything beyond that is hard to tell from the scant info we're given about him.
  5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_constructed_by_J._R._R._Tolkien#Mannish_languages Lô- / loh- corresponding to Anglo-Saxon éoh, "war-horse", and the derived names Lôgrad for "Horse-Mark", and Lohtûr for Éothéod, "horse-people". This word is an exact homonym of the Hungarian word for "horse", ló. The Rohirric word for "horse" has been identified as a cognate for Tolkien's Elvish words for "horse": rocco (Quenya) and roch (Sindarin). All names beginning with Éo- supposedly represent Rohirric names beginning with Lô- or Loh-, but the Rohirric forms of names such as Éomer and Éowyn are not given.[5] An example of Tolkiens work process. So in Elvish, inspired by Finnish/Hungarian, horse is Loh/Lo. The People of Rohan speak a language inspired by the Elves, that Tolkien then translates into an English corresponding Name with the root Eo for Horse. Eo descending phonetically from Lo. Even though in the real world Eo descends from a different origin. This is one such process for his conlang creation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf:_The_Monsters_and_the_Critics Tolkien wrote a book about Beowulf and did a translation of the Book. Pulling some names like Theoden, Hama, and Halfdan from Beowulf. He was a big lover of Old English. Dainn, Durinn, Dwalin, Gandalf, Frodo and the like are all from the Norse sagas. My favorite one though is Fearon from Norman French meaning a smith of Iron. Im assuming is what inspired my favorite Elf, Feanor, the "Spirit of Fire" who forged the Silmarils.
  6. Well Gondor seems to be roughly located where Istanbul/Constantinople would be and was sacked and controlled by the Germans at one time when Germans controlled most of Europe following the Roman Collapse. The Haradrim seem modeled on the Middle East. With the Haradrim and Gondorians being descendants of Atlantis/Numenor. The United Kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor having parallels in the Romans Churches East and West halves, or the Two Kingdoms of Israel and Judah. As most Europeans dynasties tried to link them selves to the ancient biblical tales such as British Israelism. Im not sure Tolkiens feelings on the real world idea, but seems to be going for a similar idea in his story telling though. A missed Opportunity I find though is the location of Nain, Israel and the association that could've been made to the Norse dwarf Nainn from the Völuspá. Given that Durinn in myth was known for relocating the Dwarves. It would've fit to have a Dwarven kingdom in the south that Durinn led some of his people from to the Northern lands. Specially given the association of the word Elf to Alb, meaning white, found in words like the Alban kingdoms of Scottland and Italy. Alban with its root Alb meaning white, is similar to the Semitic/Phoenician word for white or milk, Laban. Also where the Lebanon mountains get their name, for the snow white peaks. Same reason the Alps got their name from the same root of Alb. Alb became Alv in German then becoming Alf in Norse and Aelf in Old English. Becoming Elf in modern English. The Dwarves are among the Alfar, as was Gandalf, so listed in the Völuspá.
  7. Well he was veryyy inspired by Greek. The Blessed Isle of Elysium matches that of Tir na nOg found in Celtic myth, that to the west lay undying lands of the gods. With Numenor matching Atlantis (Likely inspired by Numitor, ancestor to Romulus and Remus of Rome. All who come from Aeneas of the Trojan war. Rome likely being originally a Greek colony that broke away.) With a touch of Lyoness slipping under the ocean waves one night inspiration. And Gothic to my knowledge preserves the Germanic language before the shortening of many words. Like the dropping of z in Germanic languages. Compare Waranos from Proto Indo European (Reconstructed) to Ouranos from Ancient Greece (Uranus in Latin) to that of Wodanaz in Old German. Wodanaz becoming Woden in Old English, Wotan in German, and eventually worn down the smallest in Norse with Odin. Odin and Uranus are cognates.
  8. Yea he talks about it in the appendixes or opening letter to his editor, i can't remember which. He used a little of Latin and Greek linguistic features to do with structure for his Quenya language, but mostly Quenya was inspired by Finnish, while Sindarin was inspired by Celtic. As for Old English, some examples of replaced words are Tungol, for Star. Became Steorra from Latin/French. Or Fell for Mountain which in Norse would be Fjall. The Norse and Old English definitely would have understood each other better than modern shows depict them, like Vikings. Germanic languages are pretty close with German being the most distinct due to the High German sounds shifts. So Day, would be Dagr in Norse, and Daeg in Old English, but Tag in German. Like in Guttentag, Though some Latin and French words are similar to Germanic ones as each came from Proto Indo European. Where as Hungarian and Finnish are language isolates that didn't come from Proto Indo European, but actually are Uralic. Possibly predating the Indo European spread, as Basque also predates P.i.e. So Tolkien was essentially saying those older languages came from the Elves, but got muddied with time by Sindar Elves and men till they resembled Celtic and Germanic dialects.
  9. Yea i think in most other things, he's really good at placing you in the scene with his descriptions. Not so much on the sex stuff though haha
  10. Agreed. And yes, Tolkien is given over credit for his languages as many verbs are missing to actually have a functioning language. Though it can add something to have conlangs I think. It just depends on what you are going for and trying to say with them. Im not so into creating conlangs just for the sake of creating them. Klingon i can understand as its an alien race, but creating fake languages with different human groups just to have them isn't something I would go for. The map issue is definitely the more important of the world building, i would agree.
  11. Already touched on all of this. For suspension of disbelief, it would be out of place to have it in the novel as you are stating it. And as far as Opt, no you don't have to have an operation to be trans by all definitions as some are non binary. Neither identifying to male or female. Which speaks to my point about it being too broad a term and too modern to be applied in the context of a historical fantasy.
  12. Random thought brought on by another thread dealing with somewhat sexual topics (transgender people). Had me thinking, you know what, id actually enjoy it if Martin stayed away from sex all together. Romance, love, and sex do not seem to be GRRM's strong suite in writing. The descriptions given during his sex scenes have me wondering where George's head is at when hes having sex. A penthouse story or Daniel Steele is more erotic that reading about Tyrions strangely bulbous member, or Roberts course hair in comparison to Jamies. More often or not, sex in Asoiaf just gives me the creeps.
  13. Oh I would agree with you there. And as no character would thus be able to openly state "im transgender", its all speculative and "fan fiction" in a sense to go to far down that road. Im not overtly interested in reading a knights and armor tale that openly uses "transgender" in the text, but I am open to a human tale of some one like Arya or Jon Connington struggling with their self identity on some level of wishing they had been born of the opposite sex, like Brienne. While being given a tale of their human struggles and why these type of feelings may arise in people of all sorts. Reading a propaganda piece on modern politics doesn't interest me though. I think Martin has tried as much as he can to include an array of human dynamics where he can and is actually one of his strongest traits as a writer, employed cleverly at times through his pov storytelling method. Something that adds another human level to the story not always seen in other novels
  14. Thats where something as complex as that should be handled less on the nose. Arya would be a good character to drops hints of it into, and let the individual readers apply what they will like people with song lyrics. I dont think Asoiaf isn't the place for those subjects as a whole, just not contextualized in the same light as we would want to view them. This also has the virtue of challenging the reader from their perspective.
  15. As stated many times before, there are people back then who may have been transgender by todays standards. We cannot say for sure how they would identify though as you are retroactively speaking about dead people who aren't here to identify for them selves on a subject not so clearly defined back then. There were certainly people who identified as the opposite sex to some degree, but to what exact degree we can not say. No, not all transgender people want to be reassigned as its a broad term that also encompasses nonbinary people. Though, the ones that typically fully identify with the opposite sex, generally seek to follow through with the change. Or else its like being trapped in a prison. There were gay people back then, and cross dressers, along with hermaphrodites. So by today's standards, there likely would be some one back then who by today standards would identify as Transgender. We cannot say for sure though as no one ever did, and there is no text stating as much. So anything else is just assumption. Further, to point out again. The point of self identity is just that, self identity. Not something others can dictate. So by virtue of that fact, and the lack of the term in historical context. Its fair to say that no, transgender people did not in fact exist as we understand it. There is nothing political about that and i even quoted the wiki article basically stating the same thing. HIstorians don't work off assumption, or at least good ones don't. They work off of facts of the times they are studying. In the past, marrying and sleeping with a 13 year old girl by a 30 year old is normal. If you tried to view that through today's lenses, you would think everyone back then was a pedophile in the same context as we understand pedophiles. They didn't have the rules, laws, or mental context of the issues back then that we do today. Im merely trying to be an authentic witness to history, not appending my modern political biases into the past with terminologies that didn't even exist back then to contextualize something they may have seen as different than we do. It is a paradox though (and ironic) to identify some one in the past as transgender when they are not here to identify themselves. Im not ignorant enough to label people past or present on such things. Its a matter of respecting self identity by not assuming people of the past's identity. I swear im not trying to be controversial, political, or anything negative and I apologize to over simplify a very complex subject in some of my broad strokes of explaining the complexities of using that modern term on ancient people.
  16. This is a larger section of that Wiki to illustrate my point. Hippocrates refers to it as a disease that he attributes to impotency due to riding a horse without stirrups. The ancients for you folks. Not the most enlightened people. This is how it would have been thought of back then.
  17. Self identity is exactly that, self identity and not something others can assign to people. We're talking the usage of a modern term towards ancients people who aren't here to "self identify" themselves. Do you get the point here? Self identity is exactly that, self identity and not something others can assign to people. Run that back a few times and think about that. Edit- So in no context, is it really appropriate to apply "transgender" to ancient people. Post opt, pre opt, or no opt possibilities and just an identity concept. I hope im not coming across as rude to you or anyone. Just trying to drive home the complications of the modern usage towards people of ancient times.
  18. Here's another point, since "Transgender" term didn't exist then, how are you, in the present, going to assign the label to people of the past who may or may not have applied it to them selves. That's as ignorant as you just assuming someone today is transgender with out asking them.
  19. No, youre just wrong. As I clearly pointed out with the word blue. Blue did not historically exist either by word, or by mental association. Yes blue was there, but it did not exist to the ancient people anymore than transgender people did. You can tell your self what ever you want and pretend others are being ignorant, but in fact, you are being ignorant and any other "historian" claiming as much is too. Though, there are "historians" who claim all sorts or nonsensical stuff so there are always margins for peoples perceptions over facts. again, you're simply viewing the past through a modern lens and trying to apply something modern that did not exist in the same context back then. Again, there would certainly be people back then who had identity crises, but to flat label them as transgender would be a misnomer at the least.
  20. Also, comparing gay people and transgender people isn't fair. As a male to female transgender person may still prefer women. Just sayin. I know there were people in the past that, by today standards would identify as Transgender had they the option though. Being gay is a little more straight forward and something they definitely had words and concepts for in the past. Transgender is a more recent terminology and concept though probably made possible due to the option of fulfilling ones self identity through surgery. As most transgender people are usually either post or pre opt surgery. So, as Im no authority on the subject, it seems to be tied to the modern ability of actually transforming now. Where as in the past, the idea of physically altering someone into becoming the alternate sex, was impossible. If you explained the surgery to them, it may sound like Frankenstein and crazy to them. Maybe not. Body modifications are not old, but that extreme of a modification would not have been possible with out significant blood loss and infection. Penicillin was only invented in 1928 even.
  21. Let me give you another example to your point. Thats like saying blue didn't exist just because they didn't have a word for it back then. Well yes, because blue as a concept did not exist to them back then. It is a rare color in nature and the sky is not always blue, nor is the ocean. They would call it grey, or wine colored, or even green. Cause blue did not exist to them any more than neon colors did. Applying modern logic to ancient cultures has gotten many historians into trouble
  22. You can poach for arguments all you want but i covered all the variants that would be possible. With no other way to act out their self identity issue other than to cross dress or have a same sex partner, there wasn't transgender people back then in the modern context. That term didn't even exist then. You're just trying to apply modern arguments into an ancient world where they didn't exist. And no, transgender people didn't always exist. People with identity crisis, yes. The term and idea of transgender though did not. At best you might be thought of as a dandy or a tomboy, such as Arya. As Arya is still a child and yet to demonstrate emotional feeling for anyone beyond her family, it would be inappropriate to label her one way or another. If she is anything like her aunt Lyanna who was similarly a tomboy, she will likely grow out of some of it to a degree. As to whether she is transgender, you would have to ask Arya if she wanted man bits. As being a tomboy does not preclude that she is either gay or transgender at heart, you would have to wait for the novel to develop to know anyfurther. As to Cersei being transgender merely for her actions seems a slippery slope on the usage of the term transgender. She dresses and acts like a feminine female in most all respects, straight down to using her looks and sex and tools and weapons as opposed to Brienne using brute strength and a sword. Is Brienne Transgender now? Unlike Cersei, she has no kids? She did love Renly though, very fiercely. So is she transgender now? and Simply not a strong straight female that happens to not be very good looking? Does not being good looking preclude all females are transgender? Again, you seem to be applying modern logic to an ancient culture/world, albeit fantasy.
  23. Agreed. Its not that the internal struggle wouldn't exist back then, but the concepts and processes of things back then were markedly different. Along with public perception, as noted with Penny's fate. As Tyrions notes that Penny would die if Penny's master dies. His will be the first throat slit.[2] —Tyrion Lannister's thoughts on Sweets's fate if Yezzan dies Even Tyrion "dead panning" Sweet would be appropriate to the times as the concept didn't likely exist and if it did, most probably didn't care to be sympathetic about it.
  24. This is something ive noticed between GRRM and Tolkien. There is an interview with Tolkien in which he say's he made his maps first, stating that it would be a mess to write the book and create a map after. Something George did. I can see Tolkiens logic as with a map and language set first, writing mustve become much easier. For instance. Tolkien pulled from a lot of real world stuff with the Myrkwood being a real mythic place located near Ukraine. The Shire being in England and Mordor being where the Black Sea is and Gondor being roughly the Greeks .As the Gondorians are connected to the Atlantis myth/ Numenor. Numenor likely being pulled from Numitor, one of Romulus and Remus ancestors. With Rome having ties to the Greeks, but Italy and Spain being cut from Tolkiens map likely cause he hated the Latin influence that ruined Old English, which he loved. Plus it simplifies the story, especially not having the Mediterranean sea trade routes. Now, that all being said. Frodo's journey to Mordor is roughly equivalent to a holy pilgrimage to Jerusalem or a crusade. So his journey is roughly 10-12 miles a day at a years travel. Another example is how the Rohirrim come from the North near Dale and is reflected in their linguistics. With people from Dale and The Lonely Mountain having Norse names, while the Rohirrim have names similar to Old English. Like Eowynn, Eomer, Theoden, Hama, and Halfdan. The Distance between these two lands is changed from history though, with the Rohirrim being roughly in the lands that the Goths would've been. Though you do have Theodoric among the Goths, and his name is similar to Theoden. Martin, working as a gardener, has gardened himself into a few rabbit holes. Though he some how manages to hold a large part of it together, likely through the aid of Elio and Linda. Or else we would have horses changing sex ocnstantly and peoples eye colors constantly changing. Something they pointed out to him before. With all these other narratives (Yiti, Dunk and Egg, Fire and Blood 2, and i can't remember what all else), I worry about not just ASOIAF, but of those stories as well. I could see the Dunk and Egg show passing his books just like ASOIAF did. As an aspiring writer, its something I try to avoid by taking the time to build my world, maps, languages, and history before completing the main story. Or else id be in the same pickle as George or worse, as im no gardener and couldn't wing it like him.
  • Create New...