Tucu

41 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

This could be relavent.

 

Kingsguard, but not only are they not described as shadows, but we are specifically told that they aren't shadows. Though not white, the grey wraiths that were Ned's companions once are the shadows here.

 

A Stark commanding shadows :-)

Later in one of Jamie's dreams Rhaegar and the KG are Jamie's icy shades/shadows/ghosts

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He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.<...>

The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound.<...>

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.<...>

“Do you believe in ghosts, Maester?” he asked Qyburn.

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Black crows and white crows, what could they have in common?  Shadow is both a noun and a verb.

- an inseparable companion or attendant (noun)

- follow and observe someone closely and secretly (verb)

Jon is dressed in black and his white shadow is Ghost.  The black brothers in the prologue of GoT are secretly observed and followed by white shadows.  The WWs are also brothers - black brothers and white brothers.  Who do they serve or who were they meant to serve?

Related piece of wisdom from an unlikely source:

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You are fighting shadows when you should be fighting the men who cast them," Daario went on

17 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that WW  are only puppets of some kind of mastermind(s). Or their real leaders are controlling them like wargs/greense'ers do with their own "puppets". So only way to really eliminate Army of Death would be to wipe out those masterminds and their ability to control their slaves.

The WWs are also called watchers (like the NW) in the AGoT prologue. In The Watcher and in the Captain of the guards Areo Hotah repeats expressions like this 4 times:

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Serve. Protect. Obey. Simple vows for simple men. That was all he knew

Then in The Queensguard Barristan thinks this:

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The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking, it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their sides.

So we have a white shadow repeating the serve, obey and protect vows mentioned by Areo. Simple vows for simple men.

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So, probably nothing but Above, several quotes where the "Others", are described as white shadows. They are also known as white walkers, cold gods and cold shadows. Below, ghost is mentioned as a white shadow.  Below, Patchface singing.

 

Nothing interesting, we all know the shadows talked about here are the Others, and they came to dance.

 

Below, Jon at Alys' wedding and while wildlings coming under his protection.

A snowflake danced upon the air. Then an Other. Dance with me, Jon Snow, he thought. You'll dance with me anon.

 

I remember posting Ser Waymar's dance and the snowflake dance but don't remember ever connecting these two to Patchface's song, so I thought I'd post again.

The WWs, Ghost and the Kingsguard are described multiple times as "white shadows". Not sure exactly what it will mean but I always look for references to "white shadows". Ghost protects Jon and the KGs protect the king; the WW are protectors of what?

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Joffrey was galloping at his side, whey-faced, with Ser Mandon Moore a white shadow on his left

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His two white shadows were always with him; Balon Swann and Mandon Moore, beautiful in their pale plate

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Dany glimpsed Ser Barristan sliding closer, a white shadow at her side

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Finally he rolled over the side and lay breathless and exhausted, flat on his back. Balls of green and orange flame crackled overhead, leaving streaks between the stars. He had a moment to think how pretty it was before Ser Mandon blocked out the view. The knight was a white steel shadow, his eyes shining darkly behind his helm. Tyrion had no more strength than a rag doll. Ser Mandon put the point of his sword to the hollow of his throat and curled both hands around the hilt.

The last one is when Mandon attacks Tyrion.

52 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tywin gets septons to say all sorts of crazy shit

Tywin and every king and great lord since Jaehaerys I (until Cersei). Will it be any different if Tyrion comes home with Dany?

30 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maybe this should be it’s own thread, but since Tysha really was a common girl who married Tyrion, does that mean that his marriage to Sansa is fraudulent? Because in this case, Tyrion’s first marriage would have been real, as well as consummated. Even if Tywin “annulled” it, he technically wouldn’t be able to.

Tywin got the "septons" to undo the marriage:

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"After he was done with her, my father had the marriage undone. It was as if we had never been wed, the septons said."

5 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One of the best things about this series is that it’s so detailed that every time I re-read it, it’s like reading it for the first time. One of the worst things about this series is that it’s so detailed that I inevitably end up forgetting a ton of stuff.

Did the Redwyne fleet sail to the Reach after Loras took Dragonstone, or were they part of the force Mace took with him to King’s Landing? 

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The queen sent for him at once. As soon as he strode into her solar, she knew his tidings were good. "Your Grace," he said with a broad smile, "Dragonstone is yours."

"How splendid." She took his hands and kissed him on the cheeks. "I know Tommen will be pleased as well. This will mean that we can release Lord Redwyne's fleet, and drive the ironmen from the Shields."

56 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

What is the origin of the term skin changer?  Is it common in fantasy, or is it something GRRM created?

Beorn is called a skin-changer in The Hobbit.

59 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Does anyone know what program/template is used here to make family trees? ->

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Stark#Family_tree

I want to make a family tree like that. How can I get access to that program? Can that program be used on THIS forum, to insert a family tree created with that template into a thread here? Or is that program could be used only inside awoiaf part of the website, only at the Wikia-side?

It is a MediaWiki template. Defined here: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Template:Familytree

Probably a customised version of the ancestor of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Tree_chart

Edit: I don't think you can embed it in the forum.

2 hours ago, Lunabricot said:

Yes that make sense. So, the Others are potentially working with the CoTF? What are those sneaky CoTF up to?

It is not clear at all, but I think GRRM is giving us a hint at how the operate via this Littlefinger quote:

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Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game.

After five books we have no clear picture of who the Others are or their motives. They are masters at the game.

19 minutes ago, Lunabricot said:

I'm totally for the Black Gate! I think Gared and the direwolf are closely connected. Then it raises the question of who helped him? Sure, CH seems the obvious choice. But, if we goes back in time a little, I find it strange that the Others let him go unharmed. Why? Are the two events linked?

There is a pattern in the books where the CoTF/greenseers/CH do impossible rescues with what appears to be a scare-them->break-them->rescue-them sequence. They did it to the Last Hero, Sam, Bran&Co and maybe Gared.

1 hour ago, The_Watcher_On_The_Walls said:

Lol for a minute I was wondering what you were on about, like why would the watch not accept the existence of the others?

 

I’m the goose, I meant Gared. 

When I read your question I got this image of Will's wight walking all the way to The Wall and being rejected at the gates ;-)

About Gared I see two options:

-He was really scared like Stiv and Wallen (Osha's companions)

-He was one of Coldhand's rescuees and was tasked with escorting the she-wolf through the Blackgate all the way to Winterfell.

4 hours ago, The_Watcher_On_The_Walls said:

Why didn’t Will go back to the wall instead of deserting after the prologue?

Will's watch ended that night and they do not accept wights in the NW.

55 minutes ago, glass_table_girl said:

 

Hi you two, 

Along with some of the other reddit mods and Nitannian, I put together the summary of the Aeron chapters. I wanted to just clarify that I changed the wording of the document since it seems it was ambiguous and could be misunderstood. 

The shadow was not tall, the woman was. The woman herself is shadowed, though. I missed the shadowed parts, but you can see in my original written notes that it was the woman was tall. 

Thanks for the clarification.

1 hour ago, Nights Kings Queen said:

Reading that closely resembled the pain I felt when I read the red wedding chapter. George please save Dany from this murderous child molester

Sadly it does relate to marriage. Not only does it relate to marriage, it relates to love (hence why hizzy isn't shown). There was 3 sets of three different visions that the undying showed Dany. "daughter of death", "bride of fire", "slayer of lies". In the "bride of fire" section it showed her silver in a setting that resembled the place she lost her maidenhood to Drogo (representing her marriage to Drogo), the next showed Aeron dead at the prow of Silence (which I guess represents her marriage to Euron... I really don't know at this point), and the last one showed a blue rose growing from a chink of ice (confirming R+L=J, and representing her marriage to Jon... I guess).

Like I said, Hizdhar isn't there because it's "bride of fire". There's no fire (love) in their relationship.

And as for the thing with the dwarfs. In Dany's vision it represented the war of the five kings (5 dwarfs abusing a beautiful woman - westeros), in Aeron's there are more dwarfs. My guess being more kings and queens have risen, or rising up since dany was in the HOTU. Which was something Mel warned Stannis about, that more pretenders would rise, or something.

I just think people are going too far by taking this as a list of Dany's marriages. Dany is not daughter to Viserys, Rhaego or Rhaegar. Why does she need to be a bride to the corpse in the ship and Jon? Lyanna is the most likely person that can be linked to both a blue rose and a bride of fire.

22 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Rhaegar, Rhaego and the Mad king get capped with child of death 

Stannis, Aegon and the stone beast get capped with Slayer of Lies

Drogo, Euron and Jon get capped with bride of fire 

But Euron is short one eye. If you want to include a Greyjoy, it would have to be Victarion that is heading there with a much needed fleet and Dragonbinder. And the bride theme seems to be missing Hizdahr.

6 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

It actually is related to marriage 

a silver mare - Drogo

a corpse on the prow of the ship, grey lips smiling sadly - Euron Greyjoy 

a blue rose growing in the chink of the wall of ice- Jon Snow 

And then it gets capped with bride of fire implying she's going to be the bride of these 3 people at one point 

Vyseris, Stannis, Rhaegar, Aegon and Rhaego are referenced by visions in the same paragraph. They can't all be related to marriage.

2 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Nope. Why would Daenerys marry Jon Connington? 

Jon has nothing to offer her. 

It's definitely Euron

grey lips smiling sadly = Greyjoy 

That vision is not related to marriage. And Jon Connigton sailing on a ship smiling at getting back to Westeros, but sad that he will soon die of greyscale is a good match for the vision. And he has bright blue eyes.

3 minutes ago, Hos the Hostage said:

My first thoughts on the tall terrible woman with hands of white fire was Dany, but since she was not tall, I thought it would be the Night's Queen. The Others are told to be tall and white. White fire may note be the normal fire. Then the detailed version that Ran posted, it says 'tall shadow' of a woman. This woman could be of any height, if only the shadow was tall.

I would also add that Arya could grow to become a tall woman:

 

Dany after passing beneath Asshai's shadow as in Quaithe prophecies: "and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow".

Edit: the quote from the chapter is "Accompanied by a long, tall terrible shadow of a woman with hands of white fire, standing next to him". So the shadow is tall, not necessarily the woman.

3 minutes ago, Makk said:

A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. 

So is Aeron the best match for the corpse at the prow of the ship? Does it mean anything?

Isn't Jon Connington still a better match for that vision?