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Aenarion

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About Aenarion

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  1. In particular, I remember that Olivar Frey (Robb's Squire) wanted to stay with him due to his oaths and sense of duty/honor. He was forced to return to the Twins (I wouldn't be surprised if he was dragged there, honestly). He was kept out of the Red Wedding, and I wouldn't be surprised to know that he was held captive at the Twins to avoid him warning Robb about it somehow (be it by stealing a raven or going away on his own). Now, he and Roslin are the only Freys that we know of that hated the Red Wedding, and had to be forced to either be a part of it or be kept out of it. Is it possible that lordship of the Twins would pass to Olivar after all the shit goes down there, and the Freys eventually recover their honor (if Olivar continues to act honorably as he has so far)?
  2. Aenarion

    Can You Forgive Lord Walder Frey?

    Gotcha. I guess I just always assumed that it was a major battle and that since Eddard and Jon Arryn reached the place with some number of their soldiers, the riverlords had as well. I definitely want to know more about the Battle of the Bells. From my understanding of Jon Connington's musing on the battle, he himself admitted to having bumbled around there and wasted time rather than make an end of the rebellion in some way. I always thought that meant that he HAD his army (maybe a smaller force from the crownlands of several thousands?), and wasted enough time trying to find Robert that the battle happened. PS. I see what you mean about feudalism. I'll read up more about it (admittedly, the knight mythos is something that has always attracted me, so I'm sure it will be interesting on several levels). Seeing it spelled out in detail makes it more understandable.
  3. Aenarion

    Can You Forgive Lord Walder Frey?

    Putting it like that, them holding a silent grudge (and passing over the Freys when the time came to reward vassals for their service) makes more sense. At that point there was still Dorne fairly untouched by war and able to bring at least one more army to bear, and the armies of the Reach under Mace Tyrell were still investing Storm's End. Though from what I'd understood, feudalism had certain obligations on both sides. Your lord vows to protect you and uphold peace, but you vow to serve your lord with taxes and soldiers if needed. If you violated the one or the other (a lord failing in his duties to maintain/protect the realm or a vassal that failed to meet their military or economical obligations), then you were fair game for reprisals? That is probably a gross oversimplification, and I admit that my knowledge of feudal politics is extremely limited. I suppose that in reality it would be limited to what actually happened and the current situation (e.g. Tywin sending some lord an envoy to play The Rains of Castamere rather than an army to burn his house down for not paying taxes and making noise). It just seems to me that showing up with your army long after the battles have been won and your lord called you to war would garner more than just a mean nickname. Plus, what can I say? I am biased against the Freys, and want to see them burn. XD One thing I will say about the Battle of the Bells is that we KNOW Eddard led an army there, as did Jon Arryn. So regardless of whether everyone was there or not, there was time to raise the North and the Vale and reach the battle. Walder Frey certainly wouldn't take longer than the North to call his banners and march on the town.
  4. Aenarion

    Can You Forgive Lord Walder Frey?

    I guess it just meant that in the situation where it happened, Walder Frey should have counted himself lucky not to be punished. At that point he had rushed in with MAYBE 4k soldiers. Robert would have had at least 20 to 30k, so he'd have been able to put Frey in his place if Hoster asked for it. The issue with Frey isn't that he showed up late to the Trident (certainly could be true that he was ACTUALLY late), it's that he didn't show up to all the battles BEFORE then, when all the other vassals in the Riverlands did (and the Vale, AND THE NORTH). Everyone talks about him showing up late to the Trident, but who cares about THAT? Yes, it was the turning point of the war, and Robert won (mainly because Mace Tyrell was a dunce and sat it out). That being said, if Walder had shown up to the Battle of the Bells, and had his levies fight, nobody would have judged him for being late to the Trident (even IF he hadn't been there for the battle). You don't earn rewards, distinction, gratitude from your lord by being a bad vassal. He deemed himself insulted by not being treated like a Lord Paramount when in reality his Lord Paramount was probably praying and hoping that Frey would get it in his head to rebel so he could carve him up, and install someone more amenable to the ruling overlord. Hoster Tully would have been well within his rights to accuse him of being a Targaryen Loyalist that decided to switch sides when the dragons were defeated, and I doubt anyone would have faulted them being punished (certainly not Jon Arryn, who had lost nephews, Eddard, whose family deaths were the start of the Rebellion, or the River Lords who all showed up and suffered for their devotion). Maybe not stripped of lands or titles, but certainly paying for their disloyalty. The main difference between the Freys and the Reynes/Tarbecks/Greystarks is that the latter got big enough that they challenged the Lord Paramount (and lost). Give the Freys another generation or two, and history would probably have repeated itself. PS. If Westeros got invaded by a foreign enemy, and the Vale sat the war out for whatever reason you can BET that they'd have to answer for it (be it in reparations, losing lands/titles, etc).
  5. Aenarion

    Can You Forgive Lord Walder Frey?

    The guy stood on the sidelines until Robert's Rebellion was won at the Trident. Hoster Tully, Jon Arryn, and Eddard freakin' Stark brought their levies from the Riverlands, The Vale, and THE NORTH of all places to the Battle of the Bells to fight. Walder Frey just happened to not be present for it? Not buyin' it. He stayed back deliberately to pick the winning side, and then showed up late to the Trident. Admittedly, he might well have planned to show up DURING the battle of the Trident (who knows on which side of the river), and joined Robert's side (seeing that they had the advantage). That does not excuse the fact that he wasn't present for any battle beforehand. Hoster Tully would have had every right to strip Walder and his brood of the Twins (remember that he has maybe 4k people at that point, vs. Robert's army of over 30k at the Trident), and had them count themselves lucky to keep their heads. I can almost guarantee that if Tywin called his banners and someone ignored the call, that person would have some VERY difficult explanations to make to Lord Lannister. If Eddard were more in the vein of the old Stark Kings (rather than Jon Arryn's style of ruling), he'd have served a disloyal bannerman some nice Fire and Steel for that (e.g. Greystarks).
  6. Aenarion

    Can You Forgive Lord Walder Frey?

    In Westeros, marriage alliances are a reward for loyal service to a vassal. They are bargaining chips (sealing alliances between houses), rewards (offer marriage to a vassal and an alliance to reward loyalty/service (as the Starks had done with many of their Masterly Houses in the past), and obligations (breaking a betrothal is seen as "Serious Business" in Westeros) all in one. That is why breaking a betrothal is such a big deal, and why arranging marriages (as well as finding keeps and lands) is such a big deal for the nobility. Also, wasn't one of Walder Frey's chief complaints that he had never been offered a marriage alliance to one of the Tully brood? While he may have been a chief banner man, he was never one that served loyally and earned his liege's gratitude. Hoster may not have attended Walder's weddings, but neither was the reverse true as far as we know. Walder Frey had an overblown sense of his self importance and worth as a noble house of the Riverlands. He wanted to be treated with the same respect as a Lord Paramount without a) the history OR b ) the actual power/wealth of one. While also not fulfilling his obligation as Hoster Tully's vassal. My opinion of Walder Frey is that he had a skewed worldview in which the Freys were on the level with the Starks, Lannisters, Arryns, and was unwilling to meet his obligations to earn his liege's respect and gratitude. PS. Looking back on it, doesn't it seem uncharacteristically brazen of Walder Frey to join Robb Stark so boldly? Not only does he allow them to cross (which would be a fine payment for marrying into the Lords Paramount of the North), but it rids him of one of his brood to marry off. That being said, he could have happily said he was going to hold the Twins, and merely keep the Lannisters from crossing because Hoster Tully had not called him to war (which he would have been well within his rights). For someone who is so careful with his status and power it seems very uncharacteristic that he would join Robb to beat the Lannisters bloody without seeing some sign that Robb was not doomed. PPS. Thanks! I'd forgotten about that (currently through 1st re-read of the book, and I haven't reached that part).
  7. Aenarion

    Can You Forgive Lord Walder Frey?

    No. I would not forgive Walder Frey for the Red Wedding. Firstly, he could have easily taken down all the northmen without killing them (especially after the bedding. If Walder explicitly stated, "Drop your weapons and you won't be harmed" while dozens of his men-at-arms walked in with steel armor and weapons, I doubt that the northmen would rush to their death. They are brave, not stupid (if nothing else, Robb would probably surrender). He deliberately betrayed the North after stating that they were his guests and under his protection. He could have declared openly for the Lannisters, stated that he would NOT open his gates for the North and they would have to figure out a way to make it work, or declared against the Northmen and declined their offer of alliance without stating his loyalty to the Lannisters. Admittedly, the last one would not have been very bright. The Freys KNEW they were doing an evil thing (hence why so many of them were so on edge and nervous during the wedding). They deserve their upcoming comeuppance. I, for one, will enjoy reading their downfall every step of the way. Hopefully the ones that were banished from/imprisoned at the Twins for refusing to partake in the Red Wedding will be allowed to take over at the end. . . but for the majority of them? Let Lady Stoneheart handle them. PS. The Freys were only wronged in their own mind. They had done NOTHING to earn the loyalty of Hoster Tully, and during Robert's Rebellion sat on the sidelines until AFTER the war was won at the Trident. He ignored Hoster Tully's call to arms for any battle before then, after all. Frankly, he should have counted himself lucky that he and his family weren't stripped of their rights and replaced after THAT showing. He wasn't given a marriage alliance? You *EARN* those. He was never a LOYAL bannerman. Why should he be rewarded for loyalty that he never showed? That would be an insult to all the bannermen that DID show up loyally to serve their overlord (Mallisters, Blackwoods, Brackens, Pipers, etc). He never approached Hoster Tully about a marriage for Edmure, and Lysa and Catelyn would make for alliances with Lords Paramount (even Walder Frey cannot justify Hoster Tully picking the friendship of lords with 20 to 40 thousand swords over and the riches of a kingdom over himself). The ONLY insult that Walder Frey received was the denial to foster some of his family at Riverrun, which is understandable from Hoster's side after his experience with Baelish (btw, has it ever been explained how someone so insignificant in the grand scheme of things got his son fostered by a Lord Paramount?).
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