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Posts posted by purple-eyes

  1.  Lyanna's also the daughter of a LP herself, which is super significant. Not sure that they'd seen anything like these marriages between regions happening before in their contemporary history. 

    I don't think this happened, but one cynical way of interpreting R+L is that the prince decided at Harrenhal that he was going to impose himself upon the neat little anti-Targaryen marital alliance happening between FOUR regions (and five had Jamie + Lysa worked out after all).

    :rolleyes: It's been a couple of months since I've been on these boards. I see that we're still collectively engaged in all kinds of hyperbole where Rhaegar Targaryen is concerned...

    True, Lyanna is a strong link to bind Tully, Stark and Baratheon together. If Ned is a girl, then probably Ned will be this link. (Robert will happily marry Ned, I guess)

    The friendship between Ned and Robert is not enough to build this alliance, it had to be marriage bonding then the blood bonding. 

    Can you imagine Daenyres eloped and remained hidden with Daemon Blackfyre before marring to Prince of Dorne?

    I bet they were also in love, not less than Lyanna's precious love. 

    For North and Stromland and house tully and house Arryn, yes, Lyanna is similarly important as Daenyres. Her union would bind everything together. She enjoyed all the benefits as a spoiled "princess" of the north (crying proudly "this is our bannerman" for Howland reed, the heir of the grey watch) but when she needs to take responsibility for it and give people peace as well as the ability to fight the mad king, she yelled for true love and eloped and brought doom to the whole westeros. 

    Is this a heroic action? 




  2. There are two things we need to clarify here: 

    1. Many people cheat. But this does not mean people think cheating is good and correct. most of them people do it in a more secret way to protect their reputation and children born from these unions were called bastards thus were not recognized. When a king publicly cheat, people think this is a scandal, not a brave and heroic action for true love. Why did rhaegar need to elope and hide? If it is so good right, he should do it in public. 

    2. Did rhaegar cheat for true love? GRRM went as far as to tell us Elia can not have the third child. Then after that, rhaegar eloped. If Elia can provide a third child, apparently he would not do what he did. He may have love in lyanna. But that is not enough or worthy for him to take action, until he lost the possibility to get a third child from his wife. And his love in lyanna did not stop him from going back to fight rebellion (including her brother ned) either. If he was so mad in love, he should have stayed in TOJ to accompany Lyanna, not leaving her in that broken tower with only three bodyguards. Lyanna probably would not happy to see him back to fight with Ned either. Rhaegar did not even try to negotiate or contact ned. He only brought a 40000 men army to fight with them. Do you think he gave an special order to his army that they must let the rebellion leader Ned Stark alive? Highly unlikely. 


  3. Can not edit, display is not complete. 

    Like robb, he decided to marry a frey girl, so frey gave him army and fought for him. 

    However, he abandoned this due to his true love, then this is not good and even himself knew this is wrong. 

    Why? Because this marriage is associated with the benefits of both sides, you do not have freedom to follow your heart and destroy it. 

    He can choose to refuse the marriage of frey, try to work out by himself, then pursue his love marriage, nobody can blame him. 

    But he can not enjoy the benefits of arranged marriage and abandon it due to his "true love" at the same time. 

    You accept this marriage, you also accept responsibilies. 

    So you do not have right to marry for your true love. 


  4. You've yet to convince me why "do not cheat" is a moral absolute. When you're in a marriage of duty, who are you hurting by starting a relationship with another person? It's not like you chose to agree to never be with someone else, like in a modern relationship, so it's not a betrayal of any kind. At most, you've wounded your partner's pride.

    As to your analogy, yes, it is fine to take another job if you hate your current one - people do it all the time. You presumably took the job, agreeing to the conditions of employment, of your own free will, and have the option of quitting, though, so I don't see what this has to do with arranged marriages.

    I have no idea what you mean by "live marriages", but yes, people have been taking extramarital partners for thousands of years. I imagine it was pretty enjoyable, or people would stop doing it. Not that simply enjoying something, or not, has any bearing on morality, of course.

    that was love marriage. My iPad automatically adjusted that and I had a problem to fix it because the window can not show everything. 

    But anyway, about the job, surely you can quit and move to a job you like. Just like rhaegar can certainly try to set aside his wife and then do whatever with lyanna. Then this is morally correct. 

    But if you are in the job, even you hate this job, you should not secretly work for another company. Which is like the cheating within marriage. 

    I would like to mention that marriage did not appear for love or passion. It appeared as an social and economical unit to let the human beings grow and continue: for example, man and woman work together to raise their common child thus human beings can be passed. This is the basic function. That is why thousands of years arranged marriages worked fine and love based marriages only appeared in much later time. Even nowadays, people still prefer to marry somebody with more money and higher social status, not because rich people have more true love, but they can have a better life. 

    To be able to fulfil this function in Middle Ages, marriage is like a strong contract. Thus needs faithfulness and responsibility. So those who cheated were thought as improper, because it damages the basis of marriage bonding, hurt the benefits of both sides and cause instability. 

    What you said, it is your natural right to cheat during an arranged marriage, is not correct for that time. Robert was called whoremonger king. Aegon was called unworthy.   Their behavior was disliked although they were certainly in arranged loveless marriage. Why did ned feel ashamed by having bastard at home? He had an arranged marriage for sure. Why was cersei punished for her affairs even after Robert died? Why Aerys did a shame walk and swore to be faithful to his loveless wife? 

    You may feel it is totally fine to cheat if in an arranged marriage, but people in westeros certainly disagree with you. That is how marriage worked in that time. 







  5. Is that supposed to invalidate my opinion? Well, if I'm a fanboy, then your a hater. I guess that makes you just as irrational.

    So what if the other nobles have to bear arranged marriages? I'm sympathetic towards them, too, and don't blame any of them for having extramarital affairs (which a lot of them do). It's supremely unfair to have to stick by a partner you didn't chose to be with, even if they aren't horrible.

    And so what if Rhaegar got to keep reading and playing his harp? He only got to do so because they didn't conflict with his duties. When it came to his own wants vs. duty, though, Lyanna was the only time time he put aside duty.

    interestingly even in Middle Ages or in the book universe or in the modern world where still many people do arranged marriages do feel it is not a good thing to cheat. 

    By the way, it is not certain that rhaegar eloped with lyanna more for duty or for love. 

    You said he put aside duty for lyanna. 

    It is in fact likely that he ran away with lyanna due to duty. 

    The best proof is that he left after he knew his wife can not have the third child. 

    About arranged marriage, 

    By your logic since they do not have chance to marry the one they want, then it is perfectly fine to cheat. If I remember correctly, live marriage only appears in a couple of hundred years, but we did not see people enjoy cheating over thousands of years.

    By your logic, it is fine to cheat even today if you do not love your spouse any more.  

    Let us say, you do not like this job, you have to take it for money, you hate this boring job, is it ok for you to ruin your duty and work for another boss secretly? 

  6. Do you also compare yourself to starving people before you complain about your own problems?

    Besides he has a good reason for not giving up the crown even though he wants to. 

    it is quite hypocrite to say Robert was tortured by his position of king. It was himself who claimed to be king at trident. He could have given the position to stannis much earlier. Why would he want to murder dany if he really hated to be king? Several millions of gold dragons can prove how he enjoyed his new job. Just as dreaming lyanna as a perfect wife to blame cersei, he just wanted to find some excuse for his laziness and irresponsibly. 

    You serously think he will really go to become a sellsword instead of king of westeros? Never. 


  7. It's baffling how many people on these forums are siding with the mad king in RR.

    then you will feel even more confused that why so many people did not want to side with the rebellion:

    people in seagull town, people in Stromlands, people in riverlands, people in Iron islands, people in Dorne, etc. 

  8. Even if you were in an arranged marriage, and the concept of divorce didn't exist?

    Then you should let your wife cheat on you too. open relationship. 

    in fact, whole westeros is full of arranged marriages, but still people think cheating is not a good thing. 


    by your logic, if it is an arranged marriage, you should feel free to cheat. it is right thing to do. 

    But people still think it lowly. 

    And Marriage vow cursed the people get between husband and wife. 

  9. I've noticed that you constantly keep saying that Elia would be "fine" with Lyanna and Jon, meaning that she'd accept the shame and danger Rhaegar deposited in her lap because she'd have no other choice. What kind of "fine" this is? Having no choice isn't the same as being "fine". Not trying to kill someone isn't the same as "fine with them". It just means you're powerless. And that would be doubly true for Elia, unless she was a prophecy nut and wholeheartedly believed that Lyanna would give birth to only one child and it would be a boy, and kept believing it even after the baby turned out to be a boy who would be a threat to her own son. Why would Elia be fine with a "spare" and the spare's mother when she could reasonably expect that they'd try to supplant or kill Aegon or be used to that purpose by others?

    And now it's "just like Naerys"? Naerys was the long-suffering wife of Aegon. She wasn't in position to be fine or not about anything. No one asked her how she felt. We certainly don't know that she was "fine" with being humiliated and having Aegon's bastards thrown in her face. If her son's reaction to Bittersteel and his mother is something to go by, she wasn't fine with Aegon's illegitimate offspring. Missy was clearly the exception but that was due to her personality and presumably due to the fact that she didn't have enough standing to pose a threat to Naerys and her children. When Barbra's father sought to elevate his daughter to queenship, Daeron and the ever dutiful Dragonknight who later died for Aegon thought this was too much.

    Daeron most certainly wasn't fine with his father making children on a woman who sought to be queen, even after the expected death of his own mother, at a time the rumours about Naerys and Aemon hadn't even started and his own position should have been secured.

    I agree that she is not really fine with it. 

    But like you said, she is powerless compared to her husband at this moment. 

    Naerys had an adult son and prince brother to help her get rid of Barba. Herself is the Targ princess so she is more secured. 

    But Elia did not have royal brothers and adult son. 

    She can only be "fine" with it at this point. 






  10. If he wins the war and deposes his daddy successfully, then he will take Jon back to KL (Lyanna died of childbirth so she still died), then Jon will be raised in RK. Elia is likely to be fine with this extra son of rhaegar just like Naerys. But Oberyn would likely try to kill him. 

    Robert would die, rhaegar may spare Ned and Jon Arryn. So maybe Jon will be sent to winterfell in a later age and raised by Ned and Cat. 

    This is all I can think about. 


    And rhaegar will kidnap another woman to create daughter Visenya.