The Fattest Leech

Quaithe is Quaithe. She is a guide for Dany to follow as she unravels puzzles. For any readers of GRRM’s other works, she is Jala Wo of Wo and Shade in Sandkings.

I second this. I’m not even a super mega Jon fan as some are, but there are no magic incest babies in his future. I think some picked up different books from a different section of the store. GRRM isn’t writing incest as winning Disney fantasy

It is both. History isn't what has been reported and Jon is learning this along the way. Answered by @Balerionthecat above GRRM has never, ever, ever, never, ever, written any incest to be positive in his stories. They always bring down a dynasty. This does include aunts and (sister) cousins as the canon tells us. Even Jon was grossed out (per D&D) when he learned he was sexing on his aunt, and Jon knows Dany as basically a stranger, not a sister like Arya and Sansa who are of his clan kin. No, no Ned and Cat vibes. Cat wanted Jon dead. NOT hating on Cat, but she is a firewoman who was in her ways against Jon. Fire lady vs old gods dude... it'sa a thing in this story. Well aware of this Valerie character. However, keep in mind that these aren't exact 1:1 stories, and the Val-type exists in Melantha Jhirl, the Bitterspeaker+Janis Ryther, Holly, Randi Wade, Jennifer, and Maggie. ASOIAF Val is the combo of Valeria and Cynthia. These are all based on GRRM's impression of Altair played by Anne Francis, and yes, that includes the connection to historic Nymeria. This is the only story where a Val-type, or part of the prototype, dies- but not fully. Just as this type is always put with a Jon-type and that Jon-type dies sometimes, but not always but a long shot. It depends on the story. But what we have is a Val & Jon, never a Jon and Dany or Sansa or Arya or even Arianne type. And I don't get why you keep inferring women who have their own agency, are trusted by the mains, are sent on missions by the mains, want unity with the mains, can do things like fight their own battles, drink a bulb of beer, are extremely smart at chess (a euphemism for politics per GRRM), and happens to be attractive to the main is basic? By the way, this is the exact opposite, but similar, argument that Arya+Jon shippers use. That Jon wants a tomboy! So, I guess there is a ship's race being scheduled? That would be the Eclipse (get it?). No. Stannis is trying to use Val as coin to con some dude in to taking Winterfell so that Stannis instantly gains Northern loyalty. Using women as coin is a gross practice across all of Planetos, and one that the author is making us question and revolt against. And? These are means of survival in this world, especially for a female to have these skills and to not be raped and killed. This is the same symbolism behind Jon giving Arya her own Needle (a euphemism for penis/ personal agency). Now, now. This is just anger driven hyperbole. I have not said anything near close to this at all during our conversation. I do believe that I actually said the opposite about Arya a few posts ago. Asha is an extremely interesting character and of course she is because she is most likely going to undo the Iron Born misogynistic/unlearned/unread ways. And I have already addressed the agency and learning that Sansa is already doing on page, and I even referenced her lady's armour and what she is/could be doing in TWOW. What do these woman have to do with Jon and Val's arc? Why would you think only one person can work towards any sort of reformation? There's a video (filmed in Sweden I think) where someone asks GRRM about Sandor and Bretan and he confirms the Hound aspect is directly taken from Bretan Braith. I tried to find the video, but lost it , but did ask Ran about it a few weeks ago (because he was at the recording) and Ran also confirmed this. I have not heard/read the comparison you are speaking about but would love a link to it if you have it. “In A Song of Ice and Fire, I take stuff from the Wars of the Roses and other fantasy things, and all these things work around in my head and somehow they jell into what I hope is uniquely my own.” –GRRM I would never expect GRRM to copy any story as an exact 1:1 from beginning to end. It would be an extremely boring story to already know what happens as soon as it starts. I actually ususally never get into the Beauty and Beast Sansa discussions but I do enjoy reading them. Here are a few things I have learned along the way. GRRM requested ASOIAF calendar art of Sansa and Sandor that's just like the movie poster: Sansa and the Hound as La Belle et la Bête ... which by the way he has hanging on his office wall. And he wrote a scene for the show paralleling La Belle et la Bete: The scene he wrote for Blackwater And he put a romantic picture of them called SanSan on his website. There is something the fandom humorously calls 'Sandor Speak'. There was a good thread that 'translated' Sandor speak, but alas, in some forum update more than a year ago many, many threads were eaten including this one. However, GRRM gave Sandor the Beast's lines such as: La Belle et la Bête (Beauty and the Beast): One does not call me "my Lord"; one calls me "Beast." I don't like compliments. Sansa and the Hound: "Spare me your empty little compliments, girl … and your ser's. I am no knight.... And I'm no lord..." And there's lots more, he also said "there's something there" and there's more to come: "You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes [there's only been one so far], that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on." And as for the TV show, he wanted the actor who played the Beast in the TV show to play the Hound: "Ron was twice nominated for an Emmy for his portrayal of Vincent. If anyone ever makes a film of A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE, I wanted him to play the Hound." And yeah the point of Beauty and the BEAST, it's not actually a story about a sweet guy. Who knew? The Beast is NOT mild mannered in either La Belle et la Bete or the TV show. He had his gentle side but as GRRM always points out, the Beast is violent. He often describes Sansa saying Sandor is gentle with her, and yet he is violent by nature because... he's the Beast. Gonna have to go with the author's words on this unless he shows us otherwise. So far there is something there, and it is kept alive by the 'whisperjewel' of Sandor's green cloak that Sansa kept (whisperjewels being a key component across Martinworld). The show never hinted at anything between Jon and Sansa, and neither has the books, so I don't see this sporadically happening 2/3 of the way through TWOW, or even worse, all the way out into ADOS. Except, Jon isn't just a Stark or Targaryen, he is something else. He is an aspect of the old gods that identifies with itself, the same reason why Bloodraven (a recurring aspect of Jon & Bran throughout ALL of Martinworld), it is why Brynden Bloodraven Rivers rejected being a fire Targ, or even Blackwood. He chose to be Brynden Bloodraven Rivers (again Fevre Dream reference). Jon is not either Stark or Targ, he is a Snow and he will own that word (as Tyrion teaches him) and he will be Jon Snow, King of Winter. And I do believe that on the show when Arya and Jon meet again in the godswood, that Arya also gives him the "be true to your family" speech. That was not a Sansa mission on her own. And it doesn't mean anything more than the overall thematic of the story of personal identity. I agree that the snide comment "Lady Lannister" sucks because it is not true!!!!! (Sorry, quoter is now going goofy and I cannot break responses up???) If Jon starts and continues lying to everyone now to get what he wants, and if he reeealllly wanted Winterfell, he would have lied for that. But he didn't- certainly not in the books nor the show. And Stark greyness has always been all over. It is our introduction to the Ned that taints the way readers assume all Starks are. The wild wolf, the wolfishness that gets people killed too early, the kneeling wolf... none of them are the same same, but they aren't getting worse either. But again, lies and arbor gold = political deathtraps. Jon cannot fall into this trap or he will be just as greasy as the other snakes in the den.

I am still holding on for Team Rickon and hope that he is more of a Snarly Yow story (fingers and toes crossed)... but you always make a good case that makes me go 'hmmmm'.

Congrats! I can imagine how you feel because I myself have worked hard over the last few months to finally get the original versions of all of GRRM's work here in my dirty little paws. Right!?! Even my dingy little $3 original is sacred to my bookshelf now, so I understand. Congrats again.

Jon tells people over and over that Val is not a princess. Jon knows what she is. When he has his waking slaver dream about taking Winterfell, that is when Ghost shows up to remind him who he is. This is also a scene where Jon is (semi?) warging Ghost without realizing it. Jon and Ghost are one, Ghost and Val look like they belong together. (looking for the quote...) Dany and Jon have not met and don't even know about each other yet. Chances are they won't meet until the end of TWOW or even the start of ADOS since GRRM said Dany (and Tyrion) are in Essos for most of TWOW. That is part of the point. No one fits because Jon is not going to fit either. He won't be Lord of Winterfell, but rather Jon Snow, King of Winter, the ancient (first men) title being brought back to use. Nope. I have not in the least tried to assume this. I have said before in this very thread that Jon will be King of Winter, and ancient title linked to Starks and first men, of which the free folk are. The wall probably won't be standing much longer, the land is one, so there won't be a 'king beyond the wall' anymore. A Storm of Swords - Bran II "Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire." "If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one." "One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled." Well, if truth be told, I do. But please don't tell anyone because I don't want it to get out because I couldn't handle the sheer volume of fan mail. I was expecting this argument to pop up a page or two ago and was happy to see it didn't, but here we are. There are oodles and oodles of examples of things GRRM told the D's to do, but for whatever reasons the D's decided not to use. This argument actually doesn't hold much water. As said by others before, if the D's put aliens in to the show, there is nothing George can do about it. GRRM went on and on about the inportance of Stoneheart, but instead the D's gave us lazy fart "revival" of Jonny Stoneheart and the Hound with the BWB taking a piss in the river. George told them a few seasons ago that the direwolves would be very important for the Winterfell battle against Ramsay, and to feature the wolves a lot, but the showrunners went against that. And if that was the case, and the point is to have another (boring at this point) incest ship between Sansa and her brother-cousin, why didn't GRRM tell the D's to use this? Why did we not get any of that on screen? Val is short for Valerian, as in the flower, because free folk women have flower names. Dalla is actually based on a horse, but that is for other similar reasons. Valerian/Valyrian is a play on words for both the fire and ice side of the story. Why on earth would it be a warning to Jon to not trust blondes??? Sorry, but this is a completely odd line of reasoning here. I have provided much text to back up my words in this thread, please feel free to do the same when making odd comments like this. How has Val done anything against Jon or the NW or the people of Westeros? Val has dark honey blonde hair, and this appeals to Jon and his bear-side in the naturist symbiotic relationship. The bear and the maiden fair. Val is observing and verifying that Jon followed free folk custom of the 'stealing' practice. Tasting sweet air vs cold air is because Val and the free folk have actual experience with the Others and wights. This is also foreshadowing for Jon's mutiny and what is actually happening when Jon feels "only the cold". A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII When they emerged north of the Wall, through a thick door made of freshly hewn green wood, the wildling princess paused for a moment to gaze out across the snow-covered field where King Stannis had won his battle. Beyond, the haunted forest waited, dark and silent. The light of the half-moon turned Val's honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath. "The air tastes sweet." "My tongue is too numb to tell. All I can taste is cold." "Cold?" Val laughed lightly. "No. When it is cold it will hurt to breathe. When the Others come …" Val has inherited more than just clothes from her sister Dalla. She has also been given Dalla's place of wisdom. A Storm of Swords - Jon X "But once the Wall is fallen," Dalla said, "what will stop the Others?" Mance gave her a fond smile. "It's a wise woman I've found. A true queen." He turned back to Jon. "Go back and tell them to open their gate and let us pass. If they do, I will give them the horn, and the Wall will stand until the end of days." Open the gate and let them pass. Easy to say, but what must follow? Giants camping in the ruins of Winterfell? Cannibals in the wolfswood, chariots sweeping across the barrowlands, free folk stealing the daughters of shipwrights and silversmiths from White Harbor and fishwives off the Stony Shore? "Are you a true king?" Jon asked suddenly. ADDING because I forgot to first time around: Dywen, who somehow knows things, also smells the cold when evuul is afoot (or a hand, as in a fiery hand) A Clash of Kings - Jon III Thoren Smallwood swore that Craster was a friend to the Watch, despite his unsavory reputation. "The man's half-mad, I won't deny it," he'd told the Old Bear, "but you'd be the same if you'd spent your life in this cursed wood. Even so, he's never turned a ranger away from his fire, nor does he love Mance Rayder. He'll give us good counsel." So long as he gives us a hot meal and a chance to dry our clothes, I'll be happy. Dywen said Craster was a kinslayer, liar, raper, and craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons. "And worse," the old forester would add, clacking his wooden teeth. "There's a cold smell to that one, there is." A Clash of Kings - Jon IV "Ghost," Jon breathed, surprised. "So you came inside after all, eh?" The white wolf often hunted all night; he had not expected to see him again till daybreak. "Was the hunting so bad?" he asked. "Here. To me, Ghost." The direwolf circled the fire, sniffing Jon, sniffing the wind, never still. It did not seem as if he were after meat right now. When the dead came walking, Ghost knew. He woke me, warned me. Alarmed, he got to his feet. "Is something out there? Ghost, do you have a scent?" Dywen said he smelled cold. Like so many other decisions. The raping and raiding a few of the more wilding types commit is different from what those southroners in power and high lord seats commit how exactly? The Night's Watch and other people up north also trade with the free folk, so there are the good in there as well, and it also shows the free folk and northerners are capable of understandings. Lord COmmander Mormont even offers to escort Craster and his daughters south of the wall for protection (the NW true purpose). The free folk are humans, as Val says during one of Jon's other off page visits with her... A Dance with Dragons - Jon V Val had reminded him of that, on his last visit with her. "Free folk and kneelers are more alike than not, Jon Snow. Men are men and women women, no matter which side of the Wall we were born on. Good men and bad, heroes and villains, men of honor, liars, cravens, brutes … we have plenty, as do you." She was not wrong. The trick was telling one from the other, parting the sheep from the goats. ADDING AGAIN because I couldn't find the quote in time: George RR Martin gave his words and ideas of unity to Val, the one who is playing half the role of the new Nymeria. "I'm not an "American First" (and maybe because I read science fiction) I'm a "Terran First". I'm a human being first. And I have this sympathy for other human beings no matter what side of the giant ice wall they happen to be born on." Did you not watch the show? THEY MESSED WITH EVERYONE! (yes, I am being a tad cheeky because the show is so obvious ) But GRRM has also talked about how Sansa and Sandor think and dream of each other and the whole beauty and the beast thing, which I won't go in to right now because it is getting too late for that. Also, GRRM said Sandor (the Hound aspect of him) is a straight reuse of Bretan Braith from Dying of the Light... so paying attention to his older stories is important all around. But if we follow what you suggest, again if this was Sansa's story (incest with her brother-cousin) D&D would have told it. It is a major plot point and not one to be missed. Jon doesn't want to be ruler at Winterfell, that's the thing. Maybe the show tried to sneak this in... somehow , but show and book Jon does not want to take anything away from his siblings, including "Lady Lannister". Eddard lied to protect his family, not to manipulate himself politically. If Jon starts lying, then he is no better than the snakes and vipers in the pit that is King's Landing. Ack! Errands are my nemesis. Have fun.

The writing may or may not be exciting or worthy of praise to some, and that is ok because what I am talking about here is how Martin, in his own Martinworld universe, has created his own archetypes and according to his own word, has reused them. Val and Jon, and Val and Jon together, are one of those thematic types he pairs together for however that story works. This is an interesting topic for me. I do not know you personally or even much in the fandom to know what you have or have not read (as I mentioned above). There are many in the fandom that will not or have not read any ancillary stories such as the World book nor even Dunk & Egg. Crazy, right?!?! I agree. No, the show chopped up Val (and LSH, and Jon Con, and Arianne, and Aegon 6, etc, etc) and gave them to other show characters that basically also morphed into something that is show only. There are many, many examples of this remixing. Show!Jon Stoneheart is another one. Daenerys in the books is not going to have a special shoulder braid and white coat the way they showed it in S7. Jon and Dany aren't going to have boatsex. That is all a Val plotzee mix-in. Just as the show mixed in Aegon 6 with Dany when needed, and mixed in Arianne with Jon when needed. It was all forced in the show for ratings and shock and awe. The only Val in showSansa is this past season in the scene when Sansa and Dany have that heated discussion in the library (? need to find the scene). That is a straight from the books Val against Selyse scene. Plotzee! Sansa realizes she will not bow or kneel to Danaerys here, just as Val tells fire queen Selyse that she won't kneel to her (as Val should resist this particular fire queen). A little, for one scene, as I mentioned above. But in the canon reality, it is Val, and way more extremely word for word and action for action. Yes, and Arya names her wolf Nymeria. But who is actually doing all of the frontline plot actions in this history repeat? There are always subplots that mirror the major and this isn't the only case. GRRM has said that not all secondary character stay minor. This is an archetype, like Bloodraven, he has been crafting since the 70's, and the time in the story had to be right when introducing them. Jon didn't need Val in A Game of Thrones, and she was almost introduced in book 2 at the end before GRRM switched the chapters around last minute. And so may Jon after an explosion of the disease. After all, we see Jon questioning his own knowledge (quote above) and if something bad happens because he failed to act in time, he would really take that as a major blow to himself and his mission. Yikes, I don't remember show Ygritte saying this to Jon. Wow, that is an absolute corruption of the dialogue and intent which is not the same as the book intent, as we see happens over and over. Again, Plotzee! Someone else in the books wears ears around their neck. Vargo Hoat? Someone else? However, in the books, Ygritte is a 'fire' sided person, and the theme of fire always burning/consuming trees is beyond prevalent in this series (and other GRRM stories). Jon is a tree person, knowing this it is easy to see that Jon and Ygritte was never endgame. ADDING: Found this clip with Ygritte. Wow, yeah, the D's with their myopic vision of what strong women and 'women on top' actually means... brutality Again, entirely different context and the D's completely missed the point by leagues. The D's left all of the magic out of Jon's show arc, which created major voids in his show development. This is just a perfect example of a missing/misused detail that screw up the whole intent. The violent free folk are the 'wildings' like the Weeper and his ilk. That's it. It is not all free folk as Jon shows readers. Again the show dropped this detail and even made the advanced Thenns nothing more than weirdo potato hating cannibals. They most certainly are. The Dothraki are so feared that cities pay them to NOT raid and pillage. The Dothraki are slaving monsters. For the books, in no way is it shown Sansa could do this. They haven't been on page together for how long? Sansa dreams of Sandor, whom calls her his Little Bird. Jon does need someone to help reign in his wolfishness and that will be Val, Morna, Borroq, with Tormund (and maybe Morna) taking that helm in the real world while Bran/Ghost do that in the existential plane. Ramsay and Jon are a history repeat of the Red King Boltons being a 'bastard' version of the Stark and who are jealous of not inhertiing the skinchange gene. The story The Skin Trade explain this beautifully. This Jon-Ramsay, Snow brother vs Snow brother, has to happen in Martinworld. Jon has to use smarts, reality, and the knowledge of the weirwoods (history) to help thwart what will happen to humanity if people do not work together and change-> progress. If this doesn't happen, Westeros (Planetos?) will be stuck in the proverbial dark ages forever. You read Fevre Dream? Same exact concept in that story from beginning to end. ADDING: Meant to say that Jon has to use smarts, not lies, in order to move forward. Lies are what causes the constant problems in this world. They need more truth, and that that truth comes from the trees. Except no, and especially not in Jon's eyes... A Dance with Dragons - Jon III and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife! Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones. He found himself thinking about Sam and Maester Aemon, about Gilly and the babe. She will curse me with her dying breath, but I saw no other way. Eastwatch reported savage storms upon the narrow sea. I meant to keep them safe. Did I feed them to the crabs instead? Last night he had dreamed of Sam drowning, of Ygritte dying with his arrow in her (it had not been his arrow, but in his dreams it always was), of Gilly weeping tears of blood. Jon Snow had seen enough. "Now," he said.

Jon is following the Free Folk ways A Storm of Swords - Jon II "Yes, but . . . Tormund, I swear, I've never touched her." "Are you certain they never cut your member off?" Tormund gave a shrug, as if to say he would never understand such madness. "Well, you are a free man now, but if you will not have the girl, best find yourself a she-bear. If a man does not use his member it grows smaller and smaller, until one day he wants to piss and cannot find it." A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII Val waited by the gate in the predawn cold, wrapped up in a bearskin cloak so large it might well have fit Sam. Beside her was a garron, saddled and bridled, a shaggy grey with one white eye. Mully and Dolorous Edd stood with her, a pair of unlikely guards. Their breath frosted in the cold black air. "You gave her a blind horse?" Jon said, incredulous. A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII Their breath mingled, a white mist in the air. Jon Snow drew back and said, "The only thanks I want is—" "—Tormund Giantsbane. Aye." Val pulled up the hood of her bearskin. The brown pelt was well salted with grey. "Before I go, one question. Did you kill Jarl, my lord?" "The Wall killed Jarl." A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI "Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him. They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely. "Have you been trying to steal my wolf?" he asked her. Sorry, couldn't resist adding these quotes.

Jon may be struggling with different personalities that are new to him, but that doesn't mean he dislikes Val. Quite the opposite. When the chaos at Hardin's tower happens, the safety of Val is still Jon's first thought. A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me. Then he heard the shouting … and a roar so loud it seemed to shake the Wall. "That come from Hardin's Tower, m'lord," Horse reported. He might have said more, but the scream cut him off. Val, was Jon's first thought. But that was no woman's scream. That is a man in mortal agony. He broke into a run. Horse and Rory raced after him. "Is it wights?" asked Rory. Jon wondered. Could his corpses have escaped their chains? The screaming had stopped by the time they came to Hardin's Tower, but Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun was still roaring. The giant was dangling a bloody corpse by one leg, the same way Arya used to dangle her doll when she was small, swinging it like a morningstar when menaced by vegetables. Arya never tore her dolls to pieces, though. The dead man's sword arm was yards away, the snow beneath it turning red. Whooooaaaah, Nelly! Do you know what that line means? It isn't about voilence. Is that what you think? Please clarify.

Well, that is your take. I guess it was disappointing for you to come away with that impression, but I did not. However, did you see the archetypal buildup in each story that was re-purposed for ASOIAF? And before anyone naysays this idea, Martin himself has stated he has reused characters and themes from his past in to ASOIAF. Oh no, it takes way more than just resisting Targaryens to be a new Nymeria. That was not the whole of Nymeria's story by any means. I have already given you a few quotes to start, but please do read more, especially between Rhaenys and Meria Martell then compare to Val and Selyse, and then compare the integration of different peoples, and the bigotry, and OH SO MUCH MORE. I mean, practically word for word and scene for scene between the two examples. Tell me what experience Jon has with greyscale and then tell me how the rest of the world deals with it. Jon is learning, and we all know the stupid meme joke that I won't repeat here. Exaggerated rumors as Jon shows and GRRM says. A reader should not fall for this segregationist crap. This is GRRM literally using the trials of oppressed people in the real world as an example in his own story. If you read these other Martin books are you said, you should have picked up on that right away because he uses this same "otherized" human idea in those same stories as well. Westerosi standards are rubbish crap that do nothing but oppress in the current style and standard. The iron throne is a symbol of conquest and submission, not something to look up to (again, per GRRM). Ok, you keep saying that but there is nothing to back this up. So far the only weildling of weapons or death Val has done was to literally protect herself from a southron guard. See the irony about who the real violent beings are? Val does ask for a type of quarantine for Monster when she tells Jon to move monster away from Shireen and into Hardin's tower. Still, that isn't going to stop an epidemic should one break out in that environment. By the end of that interaction, Jon himself starts to question his own knowledge as we read in his internal (italic) thoughts. A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI "She seems a sweet girl. You cannot know—" "I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow." Val seized his arm. "I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl." Jon shook her hand away. "She is not dead." "She is. Her mother cannot see it. Nor you, it seems. Yet death is there." She walked away from him, stopped, turned back. "I brought you Tormund Giantsbane. Bring me my monster." "If I can, I will." "Do. You owe me a debt, Jon Snow." Jon watched her stride away. She is wrong. She must be wrong. Greyscale is not so deadly as she claims, not in children. As I mentioned, that was just a small bit. This realization happens a few times in the story, also when Jon realizes that he and Ghost are one. These realizations should not be overlooked. A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII Half a mile from the grove, long red shafts of autumn sunlight were slanting down between the branches of the leafless trees, staining the snowdrifts pink. The riders crossed a frozen stream, between two jagged rocks armored in ice, then followed a twisting game trail to the northeast. Whenever the wind kicked up, sprays of loose snow filled the air and stung their eyes. Jon pulled his scarf up over his mouth and nose and raised the hood on his cloak. "Not far now," he told the men. No one replied. Jon smelled Tom Barleycorn before he saw him. Or was it Ghost who smelled him? Of late, Jon Snow sometimes felt as if he and the direwolf were one, even awake. The great white wolf appeared first, shaking off the snow. A few moments later Tom was there. "Wildlings," he told Jon, softly. "In the grove." Gilly and other FF are also starting to treat Jon like a new king, as are Liddle, Flint when they question Jon atop the wall how he would handle issues in the north, like a Stark son of Eddard. They respect Jon for his answers. And Alys makes comments to Jon during her match with Sigorn that Jon is acting as a father/king. As GRRM said, kings/rulers/everyone are not just born that way, they are created, and we are witnessing the creation of Jon Snow, King of Winter. A Dance with Dragons - Jon II "He'll be down with the books. My old septon used to say that books are dead men talking. Dead men should keep quiet, is what I say. No one wants to hear a dead man's yabber." Dolorous Edd went off muttering of worms and spiders. When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. "You don't need to take a knee for me. That's just for kings." Though a wife and mother, Gilly still seemed half a child to him, a slender little thing wrapped up in one of Sam's old cloaks. The cloak was so big on her that she could have hidden several other girls beneath its folds. "The babes are well?" he asked her. The wildling girl smiled timidly from under her cowl. "Yes, m'lord. I was scared I wouldn't have milk enough for both, but the more they suck, the more I have. They're strong." Undoing the trope. Hardin's tower is about to fall. The Vale is about to be squashed by a blizzard and the Lance will probably come down. This all happens as these women avoid the princess in the tower trope and start making their own choices (for good or for bad). And as to Arianne, she is the Nymeria antithesis because she wants to take something by her "rights". No bueno when someone in this story makes that claim. A Feast for Crows - The Queenmaker "More like several hundred, ser," said Garin. Arianne left them to their banter. Drey and Spotted Sylva were her dearest friends, aside from her cousin Tyene, and Garin had been teasing her since both of them were drinking from his mother's teats, but just now she was in no mood for japery. The sun was gone, and the sky was full of stars. So many. She leaned her back against a fluted pillar and wondered if her brother was looking at the same stars tonight, wherever he might be. Do you see the white one, Quentyn? That is Nymeria's star, burning bright, and that milky band behind her, those are ten thousand ships. She burned as bright as any man, and so shall I. You will not rob me of my birthright! Oh yes, she will eventually go north, as will all of the Stark children at some point. I think it is Eddard that tells one of his children that "all roads lead to home/Winterfell." And I fully expect Sansa to be turning the tables on Littlefinger by then, if not before. Gotcha. Ya need to remember that the written word has a job to do, and sometimes a small forcing of words (exposition) is necessary. This is the job of the author to make it happen. Jon doesn't exist, so the thoughts he has are what the author wants the reader to know through showing us. Jon the character won't say "you're my archetype", but the reader should see this playing out on page my small bits of info and actions. Whether the reader agrees with the way the author handles it, well that is another thread. Nope. Again, Jon doesn't actually have any real experience with females outside of his own clan kin and others at Winterfell. All he knows, for the bulk of this learning, come from Catelyn and Old Nan's tales, and even Sansa... A Clash of Kings - Jon III "Gilly, he called me. For the gillyflower." "That's pretty." He remembered Sansa telling him once that he should say that whenever a lady told him her name. He could not help the girl, but perhaps the courtesy would please her. "Is it Craster who frightens you, Gilly?" Which kinda funny that Dunk also has to be taught what to say to girls by Egg when Dunk goes to meet Rohanne Webber. A bit of a fun parallel. Agreed. This also applies when people claim Val (and her archetype) are just good-looking tom boys.

Same, but I also don't see that as any final landing either. In all actuality, Jon was rather inexperienced with any females outside of Winterfell, sooo I think this is a case of learning through experience. Anyway, I think GRRM also learns along the way... Q:...Fierce warrior women would not take birth lying down! They would be active, strong, and show how powerful they are while bringing forth new life. GRRM: Well, point taken. I'll take a look at that book if it turns out that I need to describe another birth... especially if it's from the viewpoint of one of POV characters. However, in my own defense, I should note that Dalla was not a "warrior woman" per se. She was from a warrior culture, yes; one that gave women the right, but not the obligation, to be fighters. Ygritte was a warrior woman, as was (most conspicuously) the fearsome Harma Dogshead. Dalla and Val were not. Also, though I don't go into details, something was obviously amiss during Dalla's labor, since it killed her. Childbirth isn't quite the killer in Westeros that it was in medieval Europe in the real world, since Westeros has the maesters, who are a considerable improvement over medieval barber/surgeons... but the levels of mortality for both infant and mother would still be frighteningly high by modern standards. And the wildlings don't have maesters. Nor do they have any handy healing magics, such as we see in many other fantasy epics. Dalla did not even have a midwife at the crucial moment. Presumably the midwife was scared off by the big battle going on all around them as the birth was happening. Dalla had only her sister Val. All that being said, if I do depict another birth, I promise to consider all of this more thoroughly beforehand. Hmmm, what could be amiss at that moment in time? That's all you have to say I cringed so hard when I heard Val being Plotzeed! around in to other arcs as well. When Jon says this in the books, he is actually pleasantly relieved that Val is not a trope archetype female.

Here is the book quote because it may help to see it as a refresher in full context: A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI "I can do more." Why not? thought Jon. They are all convinced she is a princess. Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her. "I must inform the queen of this agreement," he said. "You are welcome to come meet her, if you can find it in yourself to bend a knee." It would never do to offend Her Grace before he even opened his mouth. [Val] "May I laugh when I kneel?" Jon and Val are about to go in to "battle" with a fiery southron queen. Why is bending the knee to fiery queen so important to save anyone? It isn't and Jon is struggling with trying to please too many kings and queens at that moment. Val is resisting this political intrision, as she should and we readers/viewers know why. Additionally, this is history repeating of Nymeria and the Rhoynar fleeing the dragons all over again. In a nutshell, Jon and Val together are the new Nymeria from history. Jon was born in Dorne, but... A Game of Thrones - Jon I "Lord Eddard Stark is my father," Jon admitted stiffly. Lannister studied his face. "Yes," he said. "I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers." "Half brothers," Jon corrected. He was pleased by the dwarf's comment, but he tried not to let it show. And this is put to readers a few times in the story... The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne There are no cities in Dorne, though the socalled shadow city that clings to the walls of Sunspear is large enough to be counted as a town (a town built of mud and straw, it must be admitted). Larger and more populous, the Planky Town at the mouth of the river Greenblood is mayhaps the nearest thing the Dornish have to a true city, though a city with planks instead of streets, where the houses and halls and shops are made from poleboats, barges, and merchant ships, lashed together with hempen rope and floating on the tide. Archmaester Brude, who was born and raised in the shadow city that huddles beneath the crumbling walls of Sunspear, once famously observed that Dorne has more in common with the distant North than either does with the realms that lie between them. "One is hot and one is cold, yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart from the rest of Westeros by history, culture, and tradition. Both are thinly peopled, compared to the lands betwixt. Both cling stubbornly to their own laws and their own traditions. Neither was ever truly conquered by the dragons. The King in the North accepted Aegon Targaryen as his overlord peaceably, whilst Dorne resisted the might of the Targaryens valiantly for almost two hundred years, before finally submitting to the Iron Throne through marriage. Dornishmen and Northmen alike are derided as savages by the ignorant of the five 'civilized' kingdoms, and celebrated for their valor by those who have crossed swords with them." Not at all and it seems kinda weird to claim this, afterall, the free folk are not in to incest but Val still manages to like and sing to Monster. It is a case of learning through experience rather than rumors. Even still, there is a difference between not blaming the child (Monster) for what the father did (Craster), and not wanting a deadly disease to spread. Remember what Tyrions learns about this disease while he is on the Rhoyne. Val's idea is not unusual and seems to be pretty typical. A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII "Craster's son?" Val shrugged. "He is no kin to me." "I have heard you singing to him." "I was singing to myself. Am I to blame if he listens?" A faint smile brushed her lips. "It makes him laugh. Oh, very well. He is a sweet little monster." No, Jon says he is half a wilding (and half a warg) as he is slowly coming to realize in ADWD. Again, this is just a small bit of that scene, but it shows Jon is sloooowly learning and he just needs to reach the next phase of acceptance (which he will). The thing is, calling these people "wildings" is shown to be a derogatory term, akin to the many awful words people use in real life. They are free folk, something Jon also learns about from experience rather than rumor. A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII Mully cleared his throat. "M'lord? The wildling princess, letting her go, the men may say—" "—that I am half a wildling myself, a turncloak who means to sell the realm to our raiders, cannibals, and giants." Jon did not need to stare into a fire to know what was being said of him. The worst part was, they were not wrong, not wholly. "Words are wind, and the wind is always blowing at the Wall. Come." A Clash of Kings - Jon VII A vast blue-white wall plugged one end of the vale, squeezing between the mountains as if it had shouldered them aside, and for a moment he thought he had dreamed himself back to Castle Black. Then he realized he was looking at a river of ice several thousand feet high. Under that glittering cold cliff was a great lake, its deep cobalt waters reflecting the snowcapped peaks that ringed it. There were men down in the valley, he saw now; many men, thousands, a huge host. Some were tearing great holes in the half-frozen ground, while others trained for war. He watched as a swarming mass of riders charged a shield wall, astride horses no larger than ants. The sound of their mock battle was a rustling of steel leaves, drifting faintly on the wind. Their encampment had no plan to it; he saw no ditches, no sharpened stakes, no neat rows of horse lines. Everywhere crude earthen shelters and hide tents sprouted haphazardly, like a pox on the face of the earth. He spied untidy mounds of hay, smelled goats and sheep, horses and pigs, dogs in great profusion. Tendrils of dark smoke rose from a thousand cookfires. This is no army, no more than it is a town. This is a whole people come together. Across the long lake, one of the mounds moved. He watched it more closely and saw that it was not dirt at all, but alive, a shaggy lumbering beast with a snake for a nose and tusks larger than those of the greatest boar that had ever lived. And the thing riding it was huge as well, and his shape was wrong, too thick in the leg and hips to be a man. And as much as I loathe, loathe, loathe the lack of context and playing Plotzee! the show just gave us for the final two seasons, I was not surprised at all that Jon went with the free folk. I just DO NOT think it will happen that way in any near shape as the show gave us. Well, since we are already book-heavy at this point, the show did not show this at all- the connection of Jon and Sansa because of marriage markets. That just wasn't there on the show, as we saw, or did not see... however it goes. As far as the books, Sansa is not about to have the same story that the show gave us. Sansa is actually coming in to her own set of skills as of the TWOW Alayne chapter. I don't see that comparison here. Either way, I love Sansa and would hate to see her being used as any political marriage meat to anyone again. She should not be married off for any type of 'legitimacy' or title validation. Eeuhhm, I'm not so convinced that Sansa won't know how to protect herself. Her armour is courtesy and it is being spit shined as we type. She doesn't need a sword to poke anyone with a pointy end. A Clash of Kings - Sansa I "Is that what 'they' say, Your Grace?" Joffrey frowned. Sansa felt that she ought to say something. What was it that Septa Mordane used to tell her? A lady's armor is courtesy, that was it. She donned her armor and said, "I'm sorry my lady mother took you captive, my lord." "A great many people are sorry for that," Tyrion replied, "and before I am done, some may be a deal sorrier . . . yet I thank you for the sentiment. Joffrey, where might I find your mother?" A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI "Gentle, pious, good-hearted Willas Tyrell. Be grateful you were spared, he would have bored you spitless. The old woman is not boring, though, I'll grant her that. A fearsome old harridan, and not near as frail as she pretends. When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery's hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey's nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure . . . whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell's servants. That is how the game is played. "I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp [songs] can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands. Yup. And Hardin's tower is described as literally about to fall over- trope averted! Yayay Val and the other women are going to escape that terrible pit.

Never ever did I say anything about "tom boy". I recommend reading Fevre Dream, Armageddon Rag, Nightflyers, Weekend in a Warzone, The Skin Trade to start with to see how GRRM has developed his own thematic structures and archetypes. GRRM has been writing and twisting common ideas since the 60's. None of these are new ideas, nor are they born from 2000's current politics and social changes. So, is she an attractive woman that also happens to be a weirwood symbol, inherits queenly clothing, and good at not letting people walk all over her and her people (Selyse and Mel for two), or is Val just a tom boy? She knows history and has experience with issues that southron people think are children's stories. Martin has been working for a few books now to set them up, as I asked about , and he does not seem in any haste to throw it all away in the final act. Will it be a fairy tale? Who knows but GRRM, and I doubt it because GRRM has spoken about relationships and how up and down they are in reality. Will it be thrown out in favor of some incest-blood betrayal-whateves relation? No. And Ghost likes her naturally... always trust your dog Since when can't tom boys also be 'attractive' while doing 'boy' things? I don't think the author is wrong about his own character.

(prefacing this by stating the show dumbed Jon and Bran down in the learning department making them nothing more than floppy dolls with pull-strings in their backs that has them on drooling repeat... but anyway...) And? For context, what is that actual full text and situation? Jon is about the only one, and one in a power position, that actually understands the threat of the Others. No, he does not at this moment in time need someone who plays the part of a southron politic person- whether a blushing maid or a traitorous Janos Slynt; people distracting from the true purpose of the NW. Instead Jon admits all sorts to the watch to work together to save humanity (mist likely how it was the first time around, NOT as how the NW de-volved into). History is in a little bit of a repeat here with the bits and pieces of the past we get are telling the current/near future of the story. Are you speaking of Morna? She is far from "only masculine". She is a woman, probably woods witch/healer (traditionally feminine), connected to old gods/weirwood symbolism, and she is a mother. Jon lets her settle her own people at Queensgate, something unheard of in modern ASOIAF times (but again, probably closer to how the NW was originally operating). Is there someone else you were thinking of instead? Jon even merges two different people together when he marries Alys Karstark to a Thenn in order to avoid a power-usurp-incest situation at Karhold. There is a line in the story that this is something a "king" would do. Strong disagree. Sure, just as Satin can do more than just be a sex worker. It takes all kinds. Donnel Noye was a one armed armorer. It takes all kinds. I am sure then males can sew as well. In fact, I think we do get that detail in the books somewhere. This is one of Jon's first lessons at the wall. Here is just a small bit, but the whole scene is very telling: A Game of Thrones - Jon V Maester Aemon touched his own collar lightly, his bony, wrinkled finger stroking the heavy metal links. "Go on." "He told me that a maester's collar is made of chain to remind him that he is sworn to serve," Jon said, remembering. "I asked why each link was a different metal. A silver chain would look much finer with his grey robes, I said. Maester Luwin laughed. A maester forges his chain with study, he told me. The different metals are each a different kind of learning, gold for the study of money and accounts, silver for healing, iron for warcraft. And he said there were other meanings as well. The collar is supposed to remind a maester of the realm he serves, isn't that so? Lords are gold and knights steel, but two links can't make a chain. You also need silver and iron and lead, tin and copper and bronze and all the rest, and those are farmers and smiths and merchants and the like. A chain needs all sorts of metals, and a land needs all sorts of people." Maester Aemon smiled. "And so?" The issue is going to be that Jon has no choice but to address the politics of the lower realm in order to help save humanity. By then he will know who he can turn to when he has to make tough decisions. The scene between Val and the fiery Selyse is a prime example of how the author has already been setting this up so that when Act 3 begins in earnest, Jon isn't going to have to waste page space starting all over from scratch. It will come from his experiences in (his) real life and what he learns when he is underwater in his coma dreams with Bran/weirwood/Ghost connections.

And this is a bad take on Jon. He puts women and young girls in charge of castles and (minor based on age) positions in the Night’s Watch. Jon is the closest to equal primogeniture as it comes in this world. There ain’t time or reason. The story is only lasting two more books with two huge battles and a wounded Jon to deal with first before the so called Dothraki “invasion “ as GRRM called it.