The Fattest Leech

I always wondered if Balerion was some GRRMified rework of Belial/Berial/etc? Lovecraft used this idea/name as well, and Dany's dragons comes from Asshai/Stygai, also derived from Lovecraft, I assumed GRRM was rounding out his dragon mythos with these details.

I popped in to this thread and noticed it is actually an older thread with a dated post from me to you at the top. That's all

@Lord Varys a gentle reminder about your sig line

Do you get the joke that the wildings aren't the enemy that those south of the wall are lead to believe?

It's pretty clear what the basic plot timeline is here, and that includes this betrayal being in development in some manner (that seems to grow in complexity with time) and it happens before Robb married Jeyne <- and that is the key in these arguments here. Certain fans stating Robb should have died/whatever because he betrayed Walder, when in fact something was in the works for a while. I have no idea why you tend to whitewash the antagonists of the story, especially ones that GRRM says he wrote as rotten to the core like Tywin, Janos Slynt, Walder Frey. It is fine to like a character for who they are, "good" or "bad", but at least admit what they are first. Martin does write very dark characters despite what some readers might think. GRRM is speaking and telling things from the perspective of the character in that quote, as he most often does. This is about the closest GRRM comes to giving his own personal feelings on how he would act within the story video link.

Do you even get the double entendre of being a butcher? You misspelled "mad man".

Falling up because you are a type of cutthroat isn't actually making it on your own. What does one have to show for it in the end with a life like this? It is basically living day to day with zero security, as we see with Slynt several times over. Not only the bribes and stealing money from his brothers and a big no-no of trying to infiltrate the Night's Watch with the politics of the south/other realms, but the highly prejudice zealot also can't think for his own self A Storm of Swords - Samwell V "Nine days too long. I have captives to dispose of, a realm to order, a war to fight. Choices must be made, decisions that involve the Wall and the Night's Watch. By rights your Lord Commander should have a voice in those decisions." "He should, yes," said Janos Slynt. "But it must be said. We brothers are only simple soldiers. Soldiers, yes! And Your Grace will know that soldiers are most comfortable taking orders. They would benefit from your royal guidance, it seems to me. For the good of the realm. To help them choose wisely." The suggestion outraged some of the others. "Do you want the king to wipe our arses for us too?" said Cotter Pyke angrily. "The choice of a Lord Commander belongs to the Sworn Brothers, and to them alone," insisted Ser Denys Mallister. "If they choose wisely they won't be choosing me," moaned Dolorous Edd. Maester Aemon, calm as always, said, "Your Grace, the Night's Watch has been choosing its own leader since Brandon the Builder raised the Wall. Through Jeor Mormont we have had nine hundred and ninety-seven Lords Commander in unbroken succession, each chosen by the men he would lead, a tradition many thousands of years old." Stannis ground his teeth. "It is not my wish to tamper with your rights and traditions. As to royal guidance, Janos, if you mean that I ought to tell your brothers to choose you, have the courage to say so." That took Lord Janos aback. He smiled uncertainly and began to sweat, but Bowen Marsh beside him said, "Who better to command the black cloaks than a man who once commanded the gold, sire?" "Any of you, I would think. Even the cook." The look the king gave Slynt was cold. "Janos was hardly the first gold cloak ever to take a bribe, I grant you, but he may have been the first commander to fatten his purse by selling places and promotions. By the end he must have had half the officers in the City Watch paying him part of their wages. Isn't that so, Janos?"

Ah, thanks. I wasn't sure if your first idea had also involved changing this other part. Maybe Ned does, if Ned were to indulge in some fruit eating and lady watching with Robert as Robert wanted him to do on the way down from Winterfell.

Dealing with the Freys is a long time coming for Martin and I cannot wait because he has built this tension up just so well across the entire ASOIAF series that the payoff will be glorious. *And by Freys, I do not mean all down to the few innocent few, but the main players of the twisted game. A long time coming... The Mystery Knight "The Hand is kind." Butterwell stumbled off, so blind with grief that he did not even seem to recognize Dunk as he passed. "You have my leave to go as well, Lord Frey," Rivers commanded. "We will speak again later." "As my lord commands." Frey led his son from the pavilion. [the son being the snot nosed Walder]

Right, Gared was too in shock (or something) to speak. In general: So as is the norm for everyone south of the wall, they assume the tales are true about the free folk and they are the cause of all that is wrong. Ned seems to think it Mance Rayder that is the threat, because the whole prejudice and lost memory that now says "ooooh, the bad wildlings are doing bad things" paranoia that is taught to those south of the wall. It is Catelyn that thinks there are darker things, but this is a hangover from the original idea that Martin had where he had Cat (with Arya and Bran) go with her far north where she is killed by the Others up there instead of being killed by the "Others" of the Riverlands instead. A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I "He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well." "Is it the wildlings?" she asked. "Who else?" Ned lifted Ice, looked down the cool steel length of it. "And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all." "Beyond the Wall?" The thought made Catelyn shudder. Ned saw the dread on her face. "Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear." "There are darker things beyond the Wall." She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts. His smile was gentle. "You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one."

Does Ned still tell Robert in this scenario?

I hope this isn't another #freyfamilyvalues thread in disguise? Walder Frey, as written by GRRM since GRRM introduced him as a 'snot nosed" kid with an obnoxious behavior, had been planning some sort of betrayal for a long time. Martin has developed the "character" for Walder Frey a long time ago. As we can see in this GRRM note about Walder IN WALDER"S OWN PERSPECTIVE, meaning not actual "fact", he and Roose were up to no good for a while. No, Robb did not deserve to die for his actions. That is absolutely absurd to think so. And NO, getting revenge on someone is far from the best course of action- a pretty large theme and "message" Martin is writing hard to get across (ahem, Lady Stoneheart). Q: We know that Roose Bolton had already taken Walda Frey to wife before Robb married Jeyne Westerling. Does this then mean that Walder Frey had already planned to ally himself with Bolton to murder Robb before Robb's marriage betrayal, or was his anger towards Robb and his reasoning towards his own family as to why Robb had to be killed more than just a pretext, and the genuine reason for the Red Wedding? GRRM: "What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him... As for Bolton, if you reread all his sections carefully, I think you will see a picture of a man keeping all his options open as long as he could... sniffing the wind, covering his tracks, ready to jump either way... even as late as his supper with Jaime at Harrenhal... Thanks for all the kind words. I'm glad you enjoyed the book. https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1116

Yes, this. I'd say that in some of GRRM's past stories there can be a few things that are left open (even though a conclusion is right there), and then there are some stories that people complain are confusing because it isn't the ending they wanted. How many times has GRRM said that he writes the story HE wants to read. This isn't typical fanatsy here, but we have to shed typical ideas and get into Martinworld to see his vision. We are in his world, not the other way around. Bran becoming a leader/main watcher/whatever is ASOIAF fits EXACTLY with the way Martin writes. People are gonna complain no matter what, unfortunately. +: I really want to emphasize that Bran becoming the head tree in town (not a literal tree) is THE LEAST shocking thing GRRM is working towards. There are several societal changes coming by the end of the story, changes that show a near-future progression in a way that is opposite and better for more people than the completely F'd up Planetos that we see. GRRM included all of the terror so readers will cheer when it changes (or we see the seeds of change).

And honestly this thread seems like another one of those threads where the OP already has a fixed opinion and really just wanted to start a flame thread so they could vent some. See ya

However, even in Dying of the Light, we see that the way that type of "marriage" was first started is not a total 1:1 to the free folk way. The scifi aspect, especially with the genetics that runs through females the DNA, is a major factor. I suspect that there is something to certain genes running through the mother's DNA in ASOAIF as well (Jon and Lyanna), but that is another subject for a later day. Back to Dying... we also see that there are some that are redefining what a holdfast is, who can stay and go, pins of protection against "hunters' (which translates to Others and Boltons in ASOIAF) and even Gwen chooses to be there with Jaan, that is something that the free folk women have. Ooph. That doesn't sound like a fair "deal" to me. I tend to think GRRM is asking readers to rethink this southron (and Targaryen) way of life, especially when it comes to the women he writes. So many unhappy woman who have no say ain't such a good thing.