The Fattest Leech

I agree to this. He lost any religious fervor when he saw his parents die. No question, but that also leads in to his future as well. He doesn't, though. He questions her along the way more often than not. Melisandre came to him on her own mission (which probably wasn't for Stannis himself, but to get to Jon, only Mel doesn't know the real who or why yet). Mel has tried hard to convince Stannis that he is AA reborn. She even gave him a flaming sword! But does that sword work without Mel and her majocs close by? We have not seen it work, not up to and including the TWOW chapter. What we see instead is Stannis referring to Davos as the reason why he is there (to save the realm first blah, blah, blah). And later we see Stannis using his "old" wartime strategic planning and cunning. Not pulling out his fiery blade or spouting anything about him being a reborn red god figure. Agreed. Never disputed this. Maybe, maybe not. He kinda has to have a world to rule over. I think he at least sees this when he points north and calls whatever the real enemy. Here I disagree. This reads to me like you are saying Stannis is a devout follower of Melisandre and will follow her like she is a red fire queen, and in doing so make everyone else bow or burn along the way. He does not do this with Davos or Justin Massey, and both are his hand and advisor, respectively. We know Melisandre looks out for herself first in her flames. The odds are is she will use Shireen for her own needs rather than Stannis knowing or doing so. GRRM has given us a heads up there is quite a bit going on at Castle Black. With Shireen, Selyse, and Melisandre all being in the same place as the huge kerfuffle, and the personal threats they may be facing, it seems Shireen's destiny is with Mel and Selyse, not Stannis. Melisandre paid the naked steel no mind. If the wildling had meant her harm, she would have seen it in her flames. Danger to her own person was the first thing she had learned to see, back when she was still half a child, a slave girl bound for life to the great red temple. It was still the first thing she looked for whenever she gazed into a fire. But again, he questions Mel along the way, gives the credit due to Davos, and never chants or even asks for Melisandre. He is winding his way through this mire on his own wits and he seems to be realizing this more and more. I re-read the Theon TWOW chapter last night and it seems the case in Stannis' future as well. Stannis may be picking up on an elemental power, but that is not from Melisandre. When we look at Mance and his comments about wearing the ruby cuff, he hates it. It gives him odd thoughts and feelings... but still, he removes it when he is away from Melisandre and then he is back to his own (devious) self again. Melisandre has her own agenda, and she hasn't figured it out yet. She has made herself appear useful in order to get her (plot) moved foreward. Stannis was just a ship ride, a step stone, in what "R'hllor" has planned for Melisandre. Coincidentally, I had already stared doing some re-reads on this Shireen burning idea and puzzling out the clues elsewhere, and I have to say, Selyse is a big part of this event. I think we assume Stannis because he seems to "obvious", or because of the abomination, but it does not appear to be happening that way. Also, even after Stannis left CB, Jon sends Maester Aemon away because Jon worries that Aemon, and Aemon Steelsong, are not safe around Melisandre and her flames because of his blood. ADDING: Also because Mel looks out for herself first, and because of the issues with the mutiny at CB, Mel will be, in her opinion, forced to move the fiery hand of R'hllor, even without Stannis' knowledge: A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. "If she knew, she would have taken the boy away from us. Dalla's boy, not your monster. A word in the king's ear would have been the end of it." And of me. Stannis would have taken it for treason. "Why let it happen if she knew?" "Because it suited her. Fire is a fickle thing. No one knows which way a flame will go." That is where there is not text to show Stannis called for the punishment of the men who ate the dead men. Every line from the book says it was the queen's men that called for this, and Stannis wasn't there for the setup, he never sang along or called for R'hllor, and he never even said "may the force be with you" at the end. He just walked away "wordless" and went to focus on something else. The second part is speculation. Stannis could very well die in the battle at Winterfell, or immediately after. There is no promise for a Stannis and Melisandre reunion. He can try to push Red Rahloo on the northern men, but they won't go for it, and Stannis will be stuck in the middle of a nasty winter in the middle of the north, surrounded by a bunch of old god'ders... which doesn't really sound very strategic Stannis-like to me. Bow or burn will not work in his favor. You can say that again! Exactly... unless Davos is there There is a the constant online debate about what constitutes as a "god" in this series. Chances are there is a nature/elemental force that one choses to use this way or that. Choice is a rather consistent theme in all of GRRM's work, and this includes the Theon TWOW chapter as well. Or, people can be like Mel and take credit for wind when it was just a natural occurrence Melisandre takes credit and gives blame as needed to make herself seem legit. She is going to be exposed real soon. I think even she gave hint to this: That was a lesson Melisandre had learned long before Asshai; the more effortless the sorcery appears, the more men fear the sorcerer. And these rumors are already spreading: A Storm of Swords - Samwell IV "The red one?" said Sam uncertainly. "Melisandre of Asshai," said Grenn. "The king's sorceress. They say she burned a man alive at Dragonstone so Stannis would have favorable winds for his voyage north. She rode beside him in the battle too, and gave him his magic sword. Lightbringer, they call it. Wait till you see it. It glows like it had a piece of sun inside it." He looked at Sam again and grinned a big helpless stupid grin. "I still can't believe you're here." Sure thing. I will be at the pub and you can buy me a stout when the book comes out. YES! I agree with this, and it seems to be going this way. Not much I can say without adding a huge TWOW spoiler tag, but I think Stannis will stay religiously neutral, but he will question Melisandre, if not R'hllor itself, and the extremist pendulum will continue back to middle (if he survives). ADDING because I forgot to mention it earlier; I do agree that Shireen will not burn at the start or first part of TWOW. It seems that a more natural plot progression will allow it to happen later, which is one of the reasons why I speculate that Mel and Selyse will take Shireen and flee to Nightfort. It may happen there if not right in front of the gate through the wall to the northern side.

The show within itself is nonsensical. It does not make sense in its own world. The books are at least consistent within itself as a world (complete with purposeful inconsistencies). There is nothing that the show can spoil because all they do is play with the source material as needed, while still rearranging everything for whatever reason.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/ Use it wisely.

Faith itself is not solely a religious term. It simply means you have strong confidence or belief in something (doesn't have to be Jeebus). Stannis was led to believe that Melisandre could deliver him what is rightfully his. Melisandre has been shown time and again to interpret her flame reading incorrectly. Stannis rewards Davos by making Davos his hand, and this is after Davos releases Edric. Stannis realizes earlier before he left the wall to go on his campaign that he had it wrong. Here is a book quote to show what happens. It is Davos that gets Stannis to where he needs to be to "save the kingdom", not Melisandre. When you have character development, things tend to changeover the course of the story: A Storm of Swords - Jon XI "I am no lord, sire. You came because we sent for you, I hope. Though I could not say why you took so long about it." Surprisingly, Stannis smiled at that. "You're bold enough to be a Stark. Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." Stannis pointed north. "There is where I'll find the foe that I was born to fight." Now, maybe start adding some book quotes to your discussion because so far I have not seen anything of the sort besides your own opinion.

You have to go back and read the Asha chapters in ADWD because that starts this journey with Stannis being away from Melisandre, and away from her enscorceling she does to people and the Asha/Wayward Bride chapter shows the readers the power and majics of the north and trees. From there we see Stannis care less and less about Melisandre... but the Queen's Men (Melisandre's in truth) are the ones who do all of the worshipping, praying, and asking for Mel and the ones asking to burn people. Stannis does not. Stannis does not pray or chant or sing or talk about Melisandre. Stannis did not set up the pyres. His faith is dwindling and based on the TWOW chapter, his eyes are now opening. A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice "Where is the king?" asked Ser Corliss Penny. Four days ago, one of the king's own squires had succumbed to cold and hunger, a boy named Bryen Farring who'd been kin to Ser Godry. Stannis Baratheon stood grim-faced by the funeral pyre as the lad's body was consigned to the flames. Afterward the king had retreated to his watchtower. He had not emerged since … though from time to time His Grace was glimpsed upon the tower roof, outlined against the beacon fire that burned there night and day. Talking to the red god, some said. Calling out for Lady Melisandre, insisted others. Either way, it seemed to Asha Greyjoy, the king was lost and crying out for help. "Canty, go find the king and tell him all is ready," Ser Godry said to the nearest man-at-arms. And even Justin Massey, one of the only ones to be nice to Asha as well as being Staniss' advisor and the one Stannis entrusts Shireen to, has lost faith in Melisandre. A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice "My champion," Asha said to Justin Massey. He deserved that much, whatever his motives. "Thank you for the rescue, ser." "It will not win you friends amongst the queen's men," said the She-Bear. "Have you lost your faith in red R'hllor?" "I have lost faith in more than that," Massey said, his breath a pale mist in the air, "but I still believe in supper. Will you join me, my ladies?" The only ones keeping faith to fires in the way of burning people are the religious zealot R'hllorist Melisandre men. A Dance with Dragons - The King's Prize On the fifth day of the storm, the baggage train crossed a rippling expanse of waist-high snowdrifts that concealed a frozen pond. When the hidden ice cracked beneath the weight of the wagons, three teamsters and four horses were swallowed up by the freezing water, along with two of the men who tried to rescue them. One was Harwood Fell. His knights pulled him out before he drowned, but not before his lips turned blue and his skin as pale as milk. Nothing they did could seem to warm him afterward. He shivered violently for hours, even when they cut him out of his sodden clothes, wrapped him in warm furs, and sat him by the fire. That same night he slipped into a feverish sleep. He never woke. That was the night that Asha first heard the queen's men muttering about a sacrifice—an offering to their red god, so he might end the storm. "The gods of the north have unleashed this storm on us," Ser Corliss Penny said. "False gods," insisted Ser Godry, the Giantslayer. A Dance with Dragons - The King's Prize Even when the shout came down the line to make camp for the night, it was no easy thing to warm yourself. The tents were damp and heavy, hard to raise, harder to take down, and prone to sudden collapse if too much snow accumulated on top of them. The king's host was creeping through the heart of the largest forest in the Seven Kingdoms, yet dry wood became difficult to find. Every camp saw fewer fires burning, and those that were lit threw off more smoke than heat. Oft as not food was eaten cold, even raw. Even the nightfire shrank and grew feeble, to the dismay of the queen's men. "Lord of Light, preserve us from this evil," they prayed, led by the deep voice of Ser Godry the Giantslayer. "Show us your bright sun again, still these winds, and melt these snows, that we may reach your foes and smite them. The night is dark and cold and full of terrors, but yours is the power and glory and the light. R'hllor, fill us with your fire." Later, when Ser Corliss Penny wondered aloud whether an entire army had ever frozen to death in a winter storm, the wolves laughed. "This is no winter," declared Big Bucket Wull. "Up in the hills we say that autumn kisses you, but winter fucks you hard. This is only autumn's kiss." A Dance with Dragons - The King's Prize The horses and the common men had it hardest. Two squires from the stormlands stabbed a man-at-arms to death in a quarrel over who would sit closest to the fire. The next night some archers desperate for warmth somehow managed to set their tent afire, which had at least the virtue of heating the adjacent tents. Destriers began to perish of exhaustion and exposure. "What is a knight without a horse?" men riddled. "A snowman with a sword." Any horse that went down was butchered on the spot for meat. Their provisions had begun to run low as well. Peasebury, Cobb, Foxglove, and other southron lords urged the king to make camp until the storm had passed. Stannis would have none of that. Nor would he heed the queen's men when they came to urge him to make an offering to their hungry red god. That tale she had from Justin Massey, who was less devout than most. "A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire," Clayton Suggs had told the king. And Godry the Giantslayer said, "The old gods of the north have sent this storm upon us. Only R'hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever." A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice The She-Bear tried again. "I do not need to watch this." It is not you the queen's men want to burn. "Then go. You have my word, I will not run. Where would I go? To Winterfell?" Asha laughed. "Only three days' ride, they tell me." A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice It is not you the queen's men want to burn. "Then go. You have my word, I will not run. Where would I go? To Winterfell?" Asha laughed. "Only three days' ride, they tell me." Six queen's men were wrestling two enormous pinewood poles into holes six other queen's men had dug out. Asha did not have to ask their purpose. She knew. Stakes. Nightfall would be on them soon, and the red god must be fed. An offering of blood and fire, the queen's men called it, that the Lord of Light may turn his fiery eye upon us and melt these thrice-cursed snows. "Even in this place of fear and darkness, the Lord of Light protects us," Ser Godry Farring told the men who gathered to watch as the stakes were hammered down into the holes. And Stannis going back to a beacon fire atop a tower means something. There are different kinds of fire in this world, just as their are different kinds of cold. Stannis going to a beacon fire is a signal of seeking knowledge, or, finding knowledge. A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice Wordless, King Stannis walked away, back to the solitude of his watchtower. Back to his beacon fire, Asha knew, to search the flames for answers. Arnolf Karstark made to hobble after him, but Ser Richard Horpe took him by the arm and turned him toward the longhall. The watchers began to drift away, each to his own fire and whatever meagre supper he might find.

Any TWOW spoilers are not considered complete until publication. They are still works in progress. I don't know that I would make that "ghostwriter" call just yet

Yes, yes, yes. I was just having a similar conversation with another last evening. You can tell a great deal in the writing style from George himself over his time writing and developing his craft. He has his own voice the same way any author does. A change in author would be noticed by line #2. In general, I can't find the article at the moment, but remember when JK Rowling wrote under the pseudonym Richard Galbraith? Readers figured it out rather quickly because of the style and verbiage used. Story telling is much more than just words on paper. No ghost writer for my vote.

In this world, there is more than one kind of slavery and with it comes breaking the other kind of chains.

And this... The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Breaking Even if we accept that the old gods broke the Arm of Dorne with the Hammer of the Waters, as the legends claim, the greenseers sang their song too late. No more wanderers crossed to Westeros after the Breaking, it is true, for the First Men were no seafarers...but so many of their forebears had already made the crossing that they outnumbered the dwindling elder races almost three to one by the time the lands were severed, and that disparity only grew in the centuries that followed, for the women of the First Men brought forth sons and daughters with much greater frequency than the females of the elder races. And thus the children and the giants faded, whilst the race of men spread and multiplied and claimed the fields and forests for their own, raising villages and forts and kingdoms.

This is most likely the bulk of the answer, maybe a few small details to come (breeding habits?), but the giants were indeed put out with the other old races and they dwindled. The song seems to tell the history pretty well... Ooooooh, I am the last of the giants, my people are gone from the earth. The last of the great mountain giants, who ruled all the world at my birth. Oh the smallfolk have stolen my forests, they’ve stolen my rivers and hills. And the’ve built a great wall through my valleys, and fished all the fish from my rills. In stone halls they burn their great fires, in stone halls they forge their sharp spears. Whilst I walk alone in the mountains, with no true companion but tears. They hunt me with dogs in the daylight, they hunt me with torches by night. For these men who are small can never stand tall, whilst giants still walk in the light. Oooooooh, I am the LAST of the giants, so learn well the words of my song. For when I am gone the singing will fade, and the silence shall last long and long. ASOS - Jon II seems to have the most active giant info (and such a good chapter). There seems to be a speck of talk about female giants, and that it seems they are existing there still (in addition to the one Tormund loved on)... A Storm of Swords - Jon II "So," the girl called when she saw him, "d'you believe us now, Jon Snow? Did you see the giants on their mammoths?" "Har!" shouted Tormund, before Jon could reply. "The crow's in love! He means to marry one!" "A giantess?" Longspear Ryk laughed. "No, a mammoth!" Tormund bellowed. "Har!" A touch off topic, so I won't go in to very much, but speaking of Tormund, there is another in history that is said to have made babes with a giantess; John the Oak. I am sure if you squint a little, you can see the great big connections That story ... but anyway, you are right! There is a lot of talk about the old races, and how misunderstood they are, and the difficulties with mating and procreating, etc, etc etc.

What timing! I quit honestly just sat down because I just arrived back home from a wet, rainy day of errands. The only giantess I can think of off the top of my head is the one that made Tormund a "giants babe" . But let me look at some other stuff before I attempt and adult answer.

Ah, gotcha. Not sure about your specifics, but good questions. I’ll check it out when I get home to my books.

Jon sent them all to Eastwatch to pass through the wall there. There is mention of them at Eastwatch and how they are all the talk, or something close to that, and there are no reports of misbehavior that I can remember. Sorry, no book quotes at the moment, but I do know it is said in Dance

I agree 1000%. Just this past week I have seen references to things in threads that somehow "confirm" what happens in the books, to which I can only laugh. And I was a tad confused about a few of the mentions and had to look them up in the wiki or search site (for my modern rapid ease) only to find out that it is NOT book information at all. In general these are a few recent issues I have come up against... I know what you mean about losing some great posters. I have mentioned this to other friends as well. Now, some of those posters were a little extreme, but sometimes I will take extreme over the rampant trolling we are left with. And, you're welcome

Exactly! And thank you for this additional quote. Why, WHy, WHY?!?!?!?!?! Of all the decisions to change the backstories... this???