Rondo

I vote for the faceless men catching up to Arya and giving her the gift of death.  Permanent shut-eye is not going to happen though because her wolf is still alive.  She will get to live a wolf's life.  

On 4/16/2023 at 5:01 AM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

House Stark has a bad reputation in the South.  They are known for treason and rebellion.  Eddard confessed to treason and the people reacted with hostility.  The public may not have liked their mercurial King Joffrey but they also condemn treason.  We the readers are privileged to know the reason why Eddard tried to take control of the kingdom away from Cersei and Joffrey.  But the commoners and the nobility are not.  They only know what they heard and what they witnessed.   It is also very much in doubt whether the Starks will be able to prove that Joffrey was not a Baratheon and thus was not the legal heir.  Catelyn Stark is known as the Lady who drew the lion into battle when she ordered the arrest of Tyrion.  She also murdered an innocent boy at the Red Wedding.  Sansa is forever tainted as an accomplice to King Joffrey's murder.   The Starks will never be able to prove that Jaime Lannister had tried to kill Bran.  

There are only two people alive who can salvage *some* of the Stark reputation and honor.  Jaime and Cersei Lannister.  Cersei has not done so for understandable if not selfish reasons.  Jaime has had many opportunities to help salvage the Starks' public image and reputation but he has not done it.  Will Jaime confess the needed information to redeem the Starks?

*Some of the reputation can be salvaged.  Perhaps Eddard was right to displace Cersei and Joffrey.  Jaime tried to kill Bran Stark and that was an insult to guest rights.  Let me repeat, Jaime broke guest rights.  Sansa knew nothing about the assassination of Joffrey until it happened.  But the fact that Robb rebelled and Jon broke his vows at the Wall, those are not redeemable. * 

Robb Stark was a rebellious lord.  Future history books will paint him as a divisive figure.  

On 4/17/2023 at 4:58 PM, astarkchoice said:

Ok now that old grmm had pretty much said we arent getting thw books finished (as hes instead gonna focus on dunk and egg books and new series) lets do more what ifs involving our fav living wmds!

1) dany is somehow checkmated by the masters or astopor and forced to give up her dragon. Through  a brutal  regime of slaves being burnt alive giving rewards and punishment   the beast breaks to their will (as we assume they had planned)....whats next for the slavers ? And dany?

2) dany is less patient and submits ro xaros marriage request ..loses one dragon and gains a huge fortune ...what do the quartheen do with the beast?  And again dany?

3) the all wise wizzards in quarth bring water with them and douse lil drogos flames..what becomes of dany , her' kids' and the wizzards?

 

Daenerys Targaryen and her 3 Dragons are the future saviors of Westeros.  They will make it past Slaver's Bay.  She will build a grand army and take back Westeros from the incompetents who are currently sitting on her father's throne.  

Bran's chapter began this long and still unfinished story.  You might say the first Bran chapter is the foreshadowing of very dark events to come.  Very dark in general but also predicted a very dark future for the point of view character, Bran Stark.  

Brother Gared, a seasoned man of the Nights Watch, was caught and charged with the crime of desertion.  Desertion, we are explicitly told, is a crime punishable by death.  We know from the Prologue what had happened to Gared just as we know the ranger had important information to convey.  Gared was obviously traumatized and suffered from PTSD.  Ned Stark listens to the man briefly and carries out the execution.  Bran Stark, a young boy, was brought along to witness the execution.  Furthermore, Bran Stark was told not to look away.  The Starks find the wolves on their way home from the horrific scene of the execution.

The Usurper's party arrives in Winterfell and Ned Stark accepts the offer to become Hand of the King.  Bran Stark accidentally sees Jaime Lannister and his sister, Cersei Lannister, making love in one of Winterfell's ruined towers.  Jaime, to keep Bran from revealing his secret, pushed Bran from the window.  The fall breaks Bran's body.  All of the boy's dreams of becoming a knight went out.  

Bran has several dreams.  He dreamt of his bastard brother, Jon Snow, growing cold and experiencing the rigor mortis of death.  He also sees across the Narrow Sea and Essos to Asshai, where he sees dragons.  Lastly, he sees into the lands of always winter, almost literally he saw the Heart of Winter.  

Bran's dog saves him from the assassin.  He comes out of his comma and wakes up to his ruined body.  Soon the children of House Reed comes to visit Winterfell.  Robb declares rebellion and leaves for the South.  Bran the Broken becomes the acting lord of Winterfell.  Theon and the Ironborn take the castle from Lord Bran.  The cripple and his friends are forced to hide and then leave from the burning castle.  This is another very traumatic episode for Lord Bran.  

Bran and Co. crossed the Wall and passed through the Nightfort and the Bastard Gate.  They meet Bloodraven, the Targaryen bastard known as Brynden Rivers.  Brynden teaches Bran and shows him how to use his abilities.  Bran saw through the eyes of the Winterfell tree.  He saw the brutality of his ancestors.  His mind travelled back in time, reading the tree's memories and sees his ancestors making human sacrifices to the trees.  In the real world, he sees bones scattered all around the vast cave.  Bran begins to enjoy the dark.  He begins to love intruding on the mind of his simpleton servant.  He begins to engage in voyeurism and spies on his potential love interest, Meera Reed. 

Brynden tells him the strongest trees grow in the dark.  Those are not normal trees because no tree can survive without the sun.  Where do the trees get their energy?  Human blood.  What does Bran have that make him a valuable asset against the White Walkers?  His Skinchanging powers.  Brynden has a plan to use Bran to wrest control of the wights away from the White Walkers.  It is unfortunate, I think, because Bran Stark will betray Brynden and use his powers to avenge the Starks.  He will learn that it was Jaime Lannister who pushed him from the window and took away all of his dreams.  There will be no peace with the Lannisters.  

Everything Bran has been exposed to by his elders are slowly leading Bran to become evil.  Bran is not just physically broken.  He is also morally broken.  From the major screwup that was Gared's execution, to his crippling, and finally to the deaths of his siblings.  All of those will not lead even a good person to become better.  Bran will see the death of his bastard brother at the wall.  He will see the deaths of Sansa and Arya.  Bran will betray Brynden and use his Skinchanging powers to drive the wights to indiscriminately attack Westeros.  Bran will become the Lord of Darkness and his bloody reign will last the duration of the Long Night.  Bran Stark will have to die before the Long Night can end and for Spring to return.  

On 4/7/2023 at 1:03 PM, SeanF said:

Do I think there’s a danger that Arya will come to see killing as a solution to every problem?  Do I think the Faceless Men are manipulating her?  Yes.

Do I shed crocodile tears over Daeron or the dishonest broker? No.

Do I cheer the deaths of Chiswick, Raff, and the Tickler, hell yes!

On 4/7/2023 at 1:23 PM, Darth Sidious said:

Arya decided to seek that group of madmen and join. She has killed on their behalf. She is manipulated but most the accountability is Arya’s.

Ok. 

Ok. I cheered the deaths of Jon and Robb. 

On 4/7/2023 at 1:47 PM, SeanF said:

I’m sure you did, because you admire evil acts and people.

”Evil is attracted to evil”, as Pinhead puts it.

Sean.  The only difference here are the story characters.  Jon Snow was a man whose decisions will cause more deaths and sorrow to the kingdom compared to what Raff and Tickler has ever done.  Or could have done.  It was more important for Jon to die because he has done more harm and would have continued to do more harm if Bowen had not killed him.  Robb's war caused more suffering and sorrow than anything Raff and Tickler has done.  So Darth cheering for the deaths of Jon and Robb is no different from you having no sympathy for Dareon and cheering the deaths of the men you don't like.

On 4/7/2023 at 12:49 AM, GZ Bloodraven said:

But that doesn't give Walder the justification to break guest right. 

Robb was not justified to break his oath to Walder.  

Breaking guest rights is a serious offense.  Breaking an oath is just as bad an offense.  

23 hours ago, SeanF said:

A word to the wise.  Mass murderers, rapists, people who hunt women for sport, and flayers are not the heroes of this tale.

Ramsay is not a hero.  Neither is a lord commander who betrayed the Order, his sworn brothers, and Westeros for his little sister.  So, yes, Ramsay and Jon are not heroes.  

The wedding happened because Lord Walder and Roose needed to prove themselves to Tywin Lannister before they can be pardoned for the rebellion.  It was the only way those two could deliver a win against the Starks.  Walder turned his back on Robb in the first place because the crime referred to on this section by gizzard of Oz as the sin is a broken oath.  Robb made many bad choices but it was the breaking of an oath that got him, his direwolf, and his bannermen killed.  

On 3/22/2023 at 3:34 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

A lot of talk on the appropriate punishment for Arya Stark for the crimes of foul murder.  Specifically, the murders of Dareon and the Insurance Underwriter.  She is guilty of many more murders but some are claiming those others acts of self-defense.  The old witch saw many more murders in Arya's short future but we can only judge and sentence for crimes already committed.  There is no justice in punishing somebody for what they might do or what they are predicted to do.  And this is about justice. 

Arya has no objections to handing the dead.  A fair punishment for crimes already committed is a life time of servitude to the Silent Sisters.  There obviously has to be a method to keep Arya from running away.  And we can further speculate on how that might be accomplished.  Perhaps a magic binder that will keep Arya bound to the Silent sisters or something of the like. 

This is fair in my opinion.  At least she is given a chance for redemption even though she feels no guilt. 

Comment below and let me know if you consider this too light of a sentence.  Too light or just right? 

The order of the silent sisters are not in the business of treating the mentally disturbed but the calm may help reduce Arya's urge to kill.

Pick any of the slaving families in Meereen.  Or Astapor or Yunkai.  What they do to slaves is worse than anything in Westeros with the exception of the Others controlling the wights.  Those who use mind control to force the dead or the living to do their bidding are the worst of humanity but they are not limited to a single family.  Varamyr and Bran are the main offenders among the humans.  

Fifteen years of servitude for Dareon's murder.  The same amount of time for the Insurance man.  That's thirty years in total.  Reduce time for good behavior, to 12 years for each crime for a total of 24.  

39 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Legally speaking Joffrey was entitled to take Ice, but I suspect a lot of houses would think what Tywin did with it - melting it down and having it completely remade, and dying the new swords red into the bargain - was rather tacky and vulgar.

The question that comes to my mind is whether anyone actually knows that Widow's Wail is made from Ice. Did Tywin announce it when he gave Joffrey the sword? I can't remember. And Oathkeeper doesn't really seem to be public knowledge.

The north may care but the people in the other parts of the kingdom would not care.  They know the Starks for rebels.

15 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

You'd think that would have had higher consequences than it did. Valyrian Steel blades are basically priceless, and they are often ancient heirlooms which are closely associated with their respective houses. 

Tywin had a lot of nerve to not only steal Ice for himself, but also melt it down to make two swords. That sets a very  dangerous precedent for any house moving forward. Imagine if the Daynes of Starfall had been in Eddard's position. Would Tywin have stolen Dawn and done the same? The backlash would have been incredible, especially from any house with their own Valyrian Steel blades to protect. No amount of gold that Tywin had offered was enough for any house to part with their blades. The theft of one of these blades should have been high scandal, no?

The Starks lost to the Lannisters.  Eddard gave a public confession to treason.  Jon is now a known traitor in the north.  Sansa is implicated in the death of Joffrey.  I don't think many people are offended when Tywin took and melted Ice.  The Starks are considered rebels and traitors.  

On 3/8/2023 at 2:12 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Jon didn't send anyone to take Arya from Winterfell, he sent them to pick her up from the Wilderness. And this doesn't change anything because Ramsay is still coming to kill Bowen because Bowen can't hand over the hostages either.

All the trick with the wildling women meant he expected Mance might need to enter Winterfell illegally to get Arya.  Mance was operating under the orders of his lord commander.  Jon was responsible for that mission.  Mance broke guest rights when they killed Roose Bolton's people.  

You are right in that none of this matters now because Jon is dead but his bad deeds will have a ripple effect that will ruin the Night's Watch.  It was all his fault though.  Bowen will do his best to sort things out but Jon created a situation where it will be next to impossible to do so.  

On 3/6/2023 at 10:30 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Disagreement had already escalated as Ramsay was coming to kill them all because they didn't have the hostages. Bowen killing Jon doesn't magically make the hostages appear so Ramsay is still going to attack only this time the Watch won't have a good leader (unless Jon recovers/is revived really quickly) and will be in disarray. Great job Bowen.

Jon's agents successfully took "Arya" out of Winterfell.  That is what made Ramsay angry.  The covert operation that got "Arya" out was inappropriate for men of the Night's Watch.  

On 2/28/2023 at 3:30 AM, Only 89 selfies today said:

These men are still alive.  Magic gives them immortality.  The vision is not one-way like watching a recorded image.  The ghosts clearly saw and recognized Daenerys.  They communicated to her through the vision from wherever they are.

I would really love it if they are immortal.  

Bowen Marsh killed his commander because that commander just announced his plan to lead the wildlings to attack Ramsay.  It is the only reason.  Bowen was not plotting a management change.  He was preventing his commander from escalating the disagreements with the Boltons.

Roose Bolton and Walder Frey were tending their own affairs and then the Starks came along and forced them to war.  I can see why Walder would demand a very high price for his cooperation.  The marriage engagement was also his guarantee of protection.  That guarantee became worthless after Robb showed his true colors.  

2 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Bowen was a dope, I said was as I'm sure Wun Wun has bashed his head in by now.

Wun Wun will be dead before he can do that.  

On 1/29/2023 at 4:53 PM, The Commentator said:

Tully madness is now on the table for discussion when talking about the sanity of Catelyn's kids. 

I will be using it to support my opinion during my next talk about Arya's mental state.  

On 2/4/2023 at 10:49 PM, H Wadsworth Longfellow said:

Some talk farther down the forum are trashing the loyal steward of the Nights Watch, Bowen Marsh.  The attacks are not fair.  Marsh was not an ambitious man.  He was not looking for political advancement or personal material gain.  He and his Brothers assassinated Lord Commander Jon Snow because they had a duty to.  Jon Snow put them all in danger.  They needed to end his disastrous leadership before more damage is done. 

I found this very interesting debate on Reddit.  I like what the user Feldman had to say.

 

 

 

Feldman10 is presenting good points.  If there was conspiracy against Jon the moment they chose was very bad timing.  The best time to do the stabbings had already passed.  Before Jon won the wildlings over.  Bowen obeyed all of Jon's instructions but the raid on House Bolton was too much.  The stabbings was a badly planned reaction to Jon's admissions of crime and the revelations of the pink letter.   

On 1/21/2023 at 7:53 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Rondo, I was wondering, you know your friend Tai Pan? I haven't seen them in a while. Will they be here soon to give more insight on the Starks as well?

Craving Peaches, I believe I understand what you are insinuating at.  I saw where you have been throwing my name around in other threads.  It is soft slander.  If you believe there is fraud going on then by all means report it to the Site Administrators.  Know this, I believe there is fraud from the Anti-Daenerys, Pro-Stark fans and would like to report the following accounts (Craving Peaches, KingEuronGreyjoy, The Last Wolf, Corvo the Crow, and Maegor Targaryen I ) be checked for duplicates. 

Craving Peaches, I say this in the interest of goodwill and want to avoid confrontation.  Please accept it as such.  Trying to intimidate people who do not agree with you has been tried many times.  Just about all of the personal attacks are coming from the Anti-Daenerys, Pro-Stark fans.  It doesn't work.  

I am not attacking you.  I do have a right to speak on my behalf and defend myself after you have thrown my name around.  Feel free to have my user account inspected.  I only ask the Administrators to check yours and those listed as well.  It is only fair.  I believe you would consider that also fair.  Put this question to rest so we can move on with interesting discussions.  

@Ran

On 1/18/2023 at 10:41 AM, Craving Peaches said:

"Oops, I accidentally set off the Wildfire cache at King's Landing."

Arya will set it off on purpose.  There's no oops.  It's a stony faced Arya watching the city burn shortly after she ignites the Wildfire.  Jon's reaction will not be the expected shock as he will be beyond such emotions after the Others raise him from death.  

8 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

But they were together. And nothing happened.

Where's Rondo?

I am here.  Is it more criticism of the Starks you're looking for?  I am working on a criticism of Bran.  I will do my best to post on the subject in the following few days.  You might disagree.  I am basing my anticipation based on what I have seen of your opinions here.  We will debate in a few days.  

On 1/15/2023 at 9:08 PM, Adelstein said:

I don't think that reacting irrationally to seeing your son murdered in front of you can be considered a sign of hereditary madness.

To the extent that killing Jinglebell even was irrational. Taking him hostage was entirely rational. Killing him was just following through - albeit unnecessarily - on that initial decision.

Cat went madder than Aerys in her minutes.  Aerys was driven to madness by his experiences in Duskendale.  Look if Aerys can go mad because of stress so can the Tullys.  It means both have the weakness in their families.  Arya and the other Stark kids have this gene.  The trauma of witnessing Ned's head dropping in the bucket drove Arya to insanity.