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Springwatch

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  1. I certainly hope so, or you'll be spreading confusion everywhere. You're splitting hairs here. If a person says, "You're safe with me", that absolutely does imply an intention to keep you safe. If you disagree, that's fine, but it's not fan-fic. Secondly, if your complaint is that Joff's gallantry is fake and not his 'real' motive, that is also fine, but has nothing to do with my original post, which is a list of all the actual events that would sway sympathy towards Joffrey if Sansa reported them in the court scene. "You're safe with me" is one of those things, no matter what interpretation you put on it. We don't have to go through every point. One is enough to overturn your accusation that my post was only worthless fan-fic. Arya attacked Joff from behind. This is true, therefore your accusation is wrong. The other points are true too.
  2. She is a little snobbish. She doesn't like bad smells and rough manners, but those are both very human things - so I'm rejecting the idea that she's sees Mycah as non-human and his murder not a problem. She's got plenty of empathy right from the start. She covers for Arya with Mordane twice - once in the sewing room, once at breakfast at Trident. When Arya turns down the carriage ride with Sansa and the queen, Sansa is lonely and desolate - so I'm rejecting also the idea that she was unmoved by Arya's three day disappearance and didn't want to help her. Sansa was introduced to the story as a normal, if a bit snobbish, little girl, and that's how we should expect her to behave. Not as some ice-hearted psychopath - because, where would that come from?
  3. I said I took those examples from the text. Do me the respect of checking before squealing fanfic. Anyone who wants to can read the chapter, they don't need you as intermediary. Seeing as you misrepresent me at every turn, I wish you'd let them get on with it.
  4. Literally anyone can read the chapter and know you are arguing dishonestly. I'm finished with you.
  5. IT IS IN THE TEXT. There are no versions of the truth, there is just the truth, which we can read out of the books. Joffrey lied about Mycah. But honestly, Mycah is of no importance to Robert. What Robert's interested in is the wound on the back of Joff's head, and the wolf bites. Calling Joff a liar would achieve little. I'm saying honourable means honourable to both sides. I'm also saying that the full truth is not going to make the king feel kindly to Arya, for example, she clubbed Joff from behind. No. This is justified by the text. Cat tells us that Sansa has been a little lady and courteous since she was three years old. Sansa herself constantly thinks that courtesy is a lady's armour. Note, courtesy, not silence. Multiple times we see Sansa in a 'court' situation - she puts on her favourite dress, makes herself beautiful, and pleads. That is: in front of the Small Council after the coup, in front of Joff on the iron throne when she's pleading for Ned, and in front of the Lords Declarant in the Eyrie. It's habitual behaviour. Also, at Darry her father is with her and wants her story told. She has no choice. If Arya hadn't intervened, then in the next seconds, Sansa would have continued or Ned would have prompted her. This is not fanfic. We know this because Ned wanted Sansa's testimony. And stop accusing me of fanfic. You are gaslighting me. Cut it out.
  6. Straw man. At no point have I said Sansa gave an account to Robert. Obviously. What I gave (because it seemed to necessary, and still does) was a reminder what the truth actually looks like. What I wrote was all facts lifted from the text - all the things that would make a bad impression on Joff's royal parents. Certainly. But concealing evidence so that a family member can win a court case is not honourable. Oh, she was going to tell the truth in the end, she knew that. Ned didn't put her on the stand to say 'can't remember' and go home. What we are looking at here is a winsome child who has been manipulating adults since she was three years old (because that's what courtesy is, right?) What we see here is how Sansa always behaves in a pinch - puts on her prettiest dress, makes herself as beautiful as possible, and goes out and pleads like a cute little angel. No doubt she would have allowed Robert to comfort her tears, and hear her story. Not that she had any choice. In the end, no-one had any choice, because within 5 seconds, Arya had tackled her to the ground and beat her up in front of the king and court. Case over.
  7. What the heck? When does Ned ever say or think anything about Mycah's humanity? When does Sansa ever deny it? This is getting ridiculous.
  8. That's it, exactly. Being involved in a bad situation doesn't make a person guilty of causing it. That applies to both Arya and Sansa.
  9. Moving on to opinion - Arya misread the situation. Joffrey wasn't about to kill or maim Mycah, he was in the mood to impress Sansa, not horrify her. So he ignores the playfighting element, and acts out the tough guy hero, punishing the villain who struck his betrothed's sister. He's a bully - he wanted Mycah hurt and frightened, and he'd enjoy Sansa pleading for mercy too. That's where it would have ended. An ugly scene, but from Mycah's perspective, much better than what actually happened.
  10. Meaning me? No fan fiction. Pure factful goodness, from the text. In the spirit of mischief, I have to ask would it be honourable for Sansa to leave all the inconvenient bits out of her testimony, so as to make her family member look good? Is that how honourable Starkdom works?
  11. Yeah, right, she could have told them what actually happened. That's Joff's stated aim was to keep Sansa safe from the (then hidden) fighters. That Joff only threatened Mycah after Mycah had hit Arya hard enough to make her cry out. Oops, that sort of makes Joff look like the good guy he wasn't. She could have told them Arya attacked Joff from behind, aiming a hard blow at his unprotected head, hard enough to split his scalp. That Nymeria raced in out of control, bit his sword arm, snarling and ripping at him. She could have told them that Joff split precisely one drop of blood, and Arya herself never had a scratch on her - but after the combined attack of Arya and Nymeria, Joff was soaked in blood, crying in pain. To which Arya callously remarked that the direwolf (!) only bit him a little. Then she picked up the fallen sword and threw it in the river. Then she and Mycah both ran off like guilty criminals, instead of, you know, checking if Joff was going to bleed to death or anything, and might need help. It's not a good story to tell. It's not good at all. Ned may think the only important thing is that Joff lied, but Joff's royal parents are thinking it's all about a wolf attack. And Arya's attack too.
  12. Oh for heaven's sake and again. There is simply not time enough in life to keep answering these.
  13. But that's a point against you, really. The marriage was public. All the northern lords saw Ramsay's brown-eyed bride. They may doubt Arya had brown eyes, but they have no proof, because all the Winterfell folk are gone and likely no-one else ever paid much attention to Ned's little daughter. Jon would be that proof. If he says his sister had grey eyes, that settles the matter, and Ramsay's claim vanishes. His only hope is to cause as much chaos and violence as possible, because if it comes to judgement, he will lose.
  14. Right. And this is what happened - King Robert ordered Ned to have Tyrion released. Cersei did the persuading, but as she doesn't like Tyrion much, Tywin probably did some prompting too. Nice one. They used to call it casus beli, but all it means is we're looking at the match, not the firework.
  15. He's probably a split personality (hinted by that dream of two heads). It's hard to pin down the split through - humane and not-humane? fire-and-blood and not? irrc he contradicts himself once or twice: advises Jon to embrace his identity and not be mocked on it - but himself is very touchy and resentful about being a dwarf in Westerosi society.
  16. This so much. Warmth is life; light is life. That scene in the HotU when she flees down the corridor while the lights go out around her - that seems more prophetic than all the rest.
  17. I didn't get it. I ended up skimming back and forth, and still couldn't get into it. Having admitted as much, I'm voting it down. Behind the Shakespearian draperies, there are speculations and assertions here that are just as sweeping as anything on this forum - such as: Because instead of finding a home, Daenerys will arrive in Westeros to find further loneliness because there she won’t be needed. There is no queenship for her but an entire nation of people who see her as an outsider, a brutal warlord when they already have their gallant Prince Aegon VI there. Instead of the loneliness of isolation, Westeros will be the loneliness of the crowd and rejection. ? It might happen. It might not happen. Worse is the assertion that even if Dany dies fighting the Others, her death must be insignificant to the outcome, and cannot be a sacrifice to a good cause. To be honest, I suspect the author is motivated by pacifism and wants the outcome to be pure of Dany's warlording and all the fire and blood thing. (I mean, I don't know, but what else is there?) But the opening was terrific, I grant you. GRRM makes many cultural references though - he's not bound by them.
  18. No, it's the other way. Tywin spells it out. Tyrion is a second son with no prospects of a good marriage or inheritance - but the marriage with Sansa was planned to make him Lord Paramount, or equivalent.
  19. Sansa is very short of heat and fire, but I could see a team lemon, team light, team gold - not Melisandre, but a common goal, fight the darkness, maybe. Alleras and Bael are straight up, in your face, anagrams. So... is it letters or sounds that matter most when grrm constructs a name? If he's trying to have both, no wonder he's slow writing ... and yet, and yet he generates characters and names easily as a production line. I'm sure there's method behind the madness.
  20. Alayne could inherit. Impossible in the normal run of events, but who expects things to turn out normal? Larence Snow was a favoured candidate to inherit the Hornwood title. Jon Snow was offered Winterfell. Ramsay Snow did get Winterfell. The exception is becoming the rule nowadays. As to the favour: she said it was promised to another, which I'd guess is a hint she'll give it to someone not a typical knight - a mystery knight maybe. Or no-one.
  21. Agree! But still - VS armour, a magic horn, and maybe a dragon's egg... that's quite a haul. Maybe he did go to Valyria, and just got lucky not falling into one of the danger spots. That could be true for Aerea/Balerion most of the time too - they only got infected/attacked right at the end. That is a really key point. I go with those who say there is no half-way house - a ridden dragon is a bonded dragon. This fits better with all we know about dragons not tolerating another rider. (I'm not sure Drogon is typical, because there's so much Dany does not know.) So, in that case, either Aerea specifically wanted to go to Valyria, just as an adventure, maybe; or she had no destination in mind and the only thought she gave Balerion was anywhere but here. Or, find me a home. Victarion's red priest said the glyphs translated as 'Dragonbinder', which is all the clue you need to connect with the old tales of controlling dragons with whips and sorcerous horns. It is a bit odd though - I mean, did all Valyrian dragon horns have the name Dragonbinder? Why did it need a name? The glyphs also said 'blood for fire, fire for blood' - which is tricky. Very like the Targ words, but what does it mean? Maybe a blood sacrifice will bond a dragon, but a fire sacrifice will bond humans. Or something else.
  22. A bit of a diversion, but this caught me by surprise. I suddenly realise I thought true love, especially true marital love, was more a northern thing. Like Ned Stark's marriage. The fire examples all seem like passionate desire, crazy romance, sex magic and holy prostitution. And like I said, the modern red priests don't seem capable of loving another human being. But there it is: AA loved his wife, in the most fundamental legend of R'hllor.
  23. To me, melting sounds a bit odd - I'd have expected eyes to sizzle and steam, maybe - I assume the oddness is to highlight the link. Works for me anyway. It's an assumption worth considering, because experts in both traditions think Dany is their hero. I'm not really seeing the problem with the dragons. It's just another way of saying a team isn't it? I wouldn't call them red herrings, because that says mistaken identity, but I'm going with Mel's idea of one man casting many shadows. (She only sees one AA; we see more.) Don't think Ned's a prophet. Sometimes a character makes a random remark that turns out later to come true, but there's no way of identifying it as prophetic except with hindsight. I'm saying the crones correctly saw a shadow of the Stallion in Rhaego, but his path was cut short. (Mel also says not all futures come to pass. Mel is full of helpful tips. ) But here's the thing. Dany is a long way down her path - the bleeding star, the dragons from stone. Prophets swarm round her like bees at a honeypot. If Rhaego is a red herring, Dany would be a red whale, and there's no graceful way to dispose of a dead red whale.
  24. Good reasoning, but on the other hand, none of the red priests we've seen so far are married. Marriage seems incompatible with their fanatical devotion (slave of R'hllor). Mel could sacrifice fifty husbands without feeling woe or sorrow, and if they were all red priests, they probably wouldn't care either. This is where is gets tricky. AA quenched the hot blade in a cooler liquid (we know this because the earlier blades shattered). To recreate LB, you'd have to heat up the VS steel, and why would anyone do that? [ETA it wouldn't be tempering or quenching if the steel was room temperature] If they did it, and it worked, there's another issue, which is there are lots of VS swords, and lots of devoted red priests. Why not multiple Lightbringers?
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