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YOVMO

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Everything posted by YOVMO

  1. YOVMO

    Seeing the bigger bigger picture.

    sure. and about the relationships between generations of privilege when some bleed for it and others were handed it. And duty and honor versus self advancement through less scrupulous means, and the positives and negatives of dynastic rule, and about how the university system has been corrupting older and more powerful knowledge since the time of Aristotle, about the nature of power, about the ups and downs of brute force, it is a mystery book an espionage book....about how people wind up altering their destiny because they believed their destiny was set in stone, about human growth over time through significant life changes, about the nature of religion, about the nature of death and, yes, as seams says, creepy trees and wolves. And that is just to name a few things. I could sit here and tell you how asoiaf is about whether morals are objective or subjective and held in place by power just as easily as I can tell you that it is about the power of music on the human soul. Saying that it is about something is way too concrete. That is for a John Grisham novel not an epic like this.
  2. YOVMO

    Seeing the bigger bigger picture.

    Why does there need to be a point. Martin has written some books, excellent ones imho, and it is to the reader now to see what the point is. A more appropriate question that What is the point of a song of ice and fire is "what do you think the point to a song of ice and fire"
  3. YOVMO

    Seeing the bigger bigger picture.

    Yes, absolutely food. The last time I read the series I gained 10 pounds. Freaking GRRM. He is like the night king creating a zombies of overfed nerds. We are going to march on the New York Public Library when the time is right. Don't forget midgets.
  4. Chuck Lorre writes tv show about geniuses. This is gonna be GREAT!
  5. HA! This makes perfect sense. Every show with some "genius scientist" is basically a thesaurus driven ding bat convention. Fantastic!
  6. I actually heard a pretty funny and at the same time intelligent and insightful comment yesterday from a friend of mine. He said that writers simply cannot write characters which are smarter than they are. Because of this, the absolute peak of intelligence the characters can have in the show without martin's direct contribution is capped at the level of intelligence of D and D and since they are mind numbingly stupid, even the smartest of their characters are stuck at that level. It isn't that they think their audience is dumb, they are just writing what they can based on their own limited intelligence.
  7. While I do think he has the temperament to be a good king and a good maester could teach him and davos the finer points of governance, the problem with him being king is he doesn't really have any great alliances....the kind that are forged in youth. Think of Robert. The stormlands are loyal to him (with the exception of i think 3 minor loyalist houses that sided with Aerys but wound up bending the knee after the rebellion) and while the stormlords would have followed Gendry it wouldn't be the kind of blood loyalty they had for Robert. Robert was fostered in the Vale and Jon Arryn was like a father to him. He was fostered with Ned and ned was like a brother to him. Ned brings the Tully's and with them the Riverlands. Robert Married Cersei bringing in the Westerlands. The iron Islands tried and failed an uprising and were brought to heel. Just through blood, fostering, marriage and friendship Robert had the loyalty of 5 of the 7 kingdoms, the iron islands posed no threat and the tyrells were power hungry and easily bought off with honors and titles. Dorne had no love for robert, but 1 out of 7 isn't bad. Add to this that robert fought a war as its leader and as such was a fabled character to the small folk and had targaryen blood connecting him to the older dynasty. These are the kinds of relationships that take many generations to form and are absolutely required for a monarch to have. If Gendry calls the banners does he even get all the storm lords? As for Jon bringing back the style King in the North I really don't like this for a lot of reasons. The practicality of the interconnected nature of the kingdoms forged over 300 years since Aegon's conquest aside, Jon seems burned out from command. He is also, I think, technically undead at this point.
  8. I actually had a post on this the other day, not only does legit gendry become roberts heir but even if we look at pre rebellion line of succession King Aryes II Rhaegar Rhaegar's Legitamite Male issue in age order Viscyers Viscyers legitimate male issue in age order Robert ((Rhaegar's cousin and grand son of Rhaelle and great grandson of Aegon V) Robert's legitamite issue in age order Which means, with Aryes, Rhaegar, Baby Aegon, Vicsyers and Robert dead a legitimized Lord Gendry Baratheon is still in line for the throne before Dany as Targaryen primogeniture is agnatic since the great council of 101 where all male heirs were given primacy over any female. Smart danny. So the line of sucession as it stands now would be Jon as the son of Rhaegar though it looks like he has no interest in the crown and would probably rather spent his time back in the north living a life of repose. Then Gendry THEN Dany and the second Gendry knocks out a legitimate heir Dany is all through. Raising him up earlier on does have potential, but just never would have seemed practical. You can only get raised from bastardy by royal decree, same with being given a lordship (especially of a great house like Storm's End). So who would do it? A living Robert I? That would cause way more problems with cersei than he ever seemed to want to be bothered with plus would be an impossition on Tommen (assuming robert doesn't know about Joff and Tommen being bastards I am sure the plan was for Tommen to be lord of storms end when he came to majority and hold it for his brother kIng Joff). So looks like Robert wouldn't raise him. Then you have Joff. Forget it. ANd after him Tommen which cersei would have seen to never happening for one of roberts bastards. So while it would surely have been interesting to see Gendry in the ultimate rags to riches as lord of storms end, there is simply never a monarch for whom it would have made any sense to actually do it) Not sure what Martin's intention is with Storm, would love to know. Obviously with his mother being Delena Florent it would be even easier to sell it. One think I am sadly pretty sure of is that Martin will not actually release a book.
  9. Maybe Gendry....ugh....Rivers after being legitimized by Dany effectively making him higher in the line of succession than she is make the executive decision to change the meaning of the bells....a tradition dating back to 47 AC with the death of Aegon I
  10. A good topic. I am going to jump in after reading the thread, just wanted to thank you for pulling out the exceplent youtubes. i had forgotten all about that. Tyrion specifically informs Jamie that the bells mean surrender. Even if this was correct, whcih it isn't, why wouldn't jamie have figured that out in his nearly life long service as a member of the kings guard. Also, is there a different number of bells for a kings death than there is for sounder. Is it like the night's watch. People just standing around the city trying to figure out if cersei has died or called a retreat?
  11. Ok, so a lot has already been made of the fact that by legitimizing Gendry (Gendry Rivers :::audible groan:::) Dany has created a claimaint to the throne making him Robert's heir. However, there is another concern. Because the Targ's practice agnatic primogeniture it would seem to me that by legitimizing Gendry, even without thought to Robert's reign as King, Dany still gives him a better claim to the throne. Assuming strict line of succession and not taking the throne by force, Jon is clearly the heir to the throne as Rhaegar's son. However, as of yet the realm is unaware of this. If the realm were to stay unaware or if Jon were to abdicate the throne, go north of the wall to live in repose, get killed, whatever....the next in the line of succession would no longer be Dany, but rather Gendry as the great grandson of Rhaella. Nice move.
  12. YOVMO

    Why did Benjen take the black?

    I always read "southern ambitions" as crownland ambitions. Marrying off Brandon to Cat Tully and Lyanna to Lord Robert ties the houses of Tully, Stark and Baratheon. Ned already Had a connection to the House Arryn through his being fostered there. By Having the stormlands, the reach, the vale and the north allied through marriages and fostering Rickard was creating a block that was more powerful than the Crown and could be used for leverage or even outright rebellion. Lady Barbery was upset because she thought she wold be the one to Mary Brandon because the north typically married to other northern houses. That she was refering to southron ambitions i think is clearly an anger at Lord Rickkard and his Maester breaking with tradition and changing the more isolationist policies that the south had had by tradition
  13. YOVMO

    King Gendry I Baratheon

    100% correct which I why I qualified my original comment saying that i am speaking strictly of line of succession. The part that got me was when Dany smirked and bragged to Tyrion how smart she was to make Gendry the Lord of Storms end without realizing that she also gave him a better claim to the throne
  14. YOVMO

    King Gendry I Baratheon

    First let me start by saying that while I disagree with your final conclusion, I loved your response. Thank you for it! Did Aelora take priority or was it just because of her marraige to her brother Aelor? I thought this was all decided in the great council of 101 when male dominant primogeniture was codified as law. Ok here I am following with you lock step. Right, because the son of Rhaegar takes priority over the brother of Rhaegar. Here is where we disagee I think. I am of the opinion that the great concil of 101 made it so that any Male with royal targaryen blood too precidence over a female. Correct on this too. It is only the legitimising that allows for the question. And, by consequence, Aegon V. While this does make sense, I think I Have to say that Dany is out of the running with a legit Gendry for the same justification Robert I has to the throne. If Robert I is the legal heir to the throne after the deaths of aerys and rhaegar and Viscyerys being in the wind, then it would be, i think, his issue not as a product of the rebellion but as a product of the targ heritage. I think you made a very fair case and while I don't agree with you 100% I can def see your pov and agree it is compelling. Run this one through though. Let's say Aryes is still king and the royal family is as it is prior to the rebellion. Then lets say they all get in thier family minivan and have an accident killing the entire family. No rebellion, total accident and everyone is killed with the exception of Dany who they didn't bring along for this family trip. I believe it to be the case that then lord robert would be tapped as the next king of westeros in the targaryen line which would make his eldest issue the next in the line. Of course, as a bastard, Gendry would have no place but as legitimized it would seem that Gendry is next. Of course this doesn't really matter because Jon has the North and, ostensibly Riverrun and the Vale and Dorne and Dany has a Dragon
  15. YOVMO

    King Gendry I Baratheon

    It isn't just blood line though it is also status. Bastards never have a claim. Gendry had nothing until the moment Dany made him Gendry Baratheon. The blood of Aegon V didn't matter because he wasn't noble. However, as Lord Gendry Baratheon of Storms end, son of Robert, Grandson of Rhaella and great grandson of King Aegon V he has a better claim than any female targaryen
  16. YOVMO

    King Gendry I Baratheon

    And does she have any living male children, grand children or great grandchildren in the 7 kingdoms that can press a claim or are we saying "if there was a direct decendent of Mariah Martell and Daeron the Good they would have a better claim. If the latter, you are right. If Daeron II and Mariah have a great grandson I will immediatley consider HIM above dany in the line of succession and, likely, above Gendry. In the meantime, Gendry is the great, great grandson of King Aegon V which means he has a better claim than Rhaegar's sister. As long as there are males in the line of the king there will never be a female to sit the throne. Again, you are absolutely right, if there is a male heir of Mariah and Daeron it is very likely they have a better claim then Gendry. Both that heir AND gendry would still have a better claim than Dany.
  17. YOVMO

    King Gendry I Baratheon

    Robert's Great Grandfather was King Aegon V and the larger point is that women, by westerosi law, do not get a nod to the throne unless all the men are gone
  18. YOVMO

    King Gendry I Baratheon

    But that is just where it gets tricky i thnk (and honestly where it gets fun...lets not forget this is all fun and games .... no one has lost an eye ). I agree, if Danny is the True Queen then succession revert back to pre roberts rebellion. So lets take the line of succession from before the rebellion King Aryes Rhaegar (kings eldest son) Aegon (Rhaegar's son) Viscyres (kings younger son) Robert (Rhaegar's Cousin) Joff (*) Tommen (*) (stars for joff and tommen obviously because Robert isn't their real Father Dany does not fit into the line of succession at all when Aryes and Rhegar are still alive assuming Robert has male heirs. So ok, now lets add in a legitimized Gendry Baratheon and Jon Snow King Aryes Rhaegar (kings eldest son) Aegon (Rhaegar's son) Viscyres (kings younger son) Robert (Rhaegar's Cousin) GENDRY Joff (*) Tommen (*) (stars for joff and tommen obviously because Robert isn't their real Father If Gendry is a Baratheon he is older than Joff so, totaly excluding Robert's rebellion he is 5th in a line of succession which Dany is never in. Now we knock out who is dead at the time that Dany winning the IT rolls back robert's rebellion. Aryes, dead. Rhaegar, dead.Aegon (book dead, show Jon Snow). So Jon is the rightful heir of Rhaegar. Now let us say that Jon abdicates as it does seem he has no interest in being king. Next it would pass to Visyers (dead) then Robert as Rhaegar's cousin, dead.......leaving us with King Gendry I Baratheon having nothing to do with Robert's rebellion and reign only with the Targaryen line of succession.
  19. YOVMO

    King Gendry I Baratheon

    That is incorrect. In fact, while Robert's claim to the throne in practicality was winning the revolution, the reasons given for him to be king was his Targaryen blood. Hi grandmother was Rhaella Targaryen which makes Rhaella Gendry's grandmother. Call it Arryn's excuse if you will, but by law, after the death of Rhaegar and with Viscyers in Essos, Robert was in fact the next in the line of succession to the Iron Throne. Put simply, if you took the rebellion out of the picture and the mad king and his entire family died in a bus accident, Robert would have been tapped as king as the next in line. Yes, there are other's with targ blood there was a lot of targs boning a lot of high borns, but it isn't JUST targ blood it is of the royal line. Aegon V's daughter Rhaella was Steffon Baratheon's mother. This wasn't some cousin, Robert can trace his line back to Aegon V and was the only one in westeros with any way to trace direct ancestry back to a King. There are three people in westeros who can do that now, Jon, Gendry and Dany. As a Bastard, Gendry would have been out of the running. As legitimized it is different. It was codified at the great council that primogeniture would be agnatic so Dany doesn't get a thing until every male Targaryen in the line of kings is gone so she is third.
  20. YOVMO

    King Gendry I Baratheon

    Yes! Had this conversation just yesterday with a friend of mine. Dany and a legitimized Gendry is very much this situation repeating itself. I am going to take a little time this weekend to reacquire myself with the events which happened after the death of Aegon IV wrt succession and the great bastards. I wonder if Daeron II was younger than Daemon Blackfyre. I really wish I had the kind of faith in the show that lead me to believe that they are actually writing out a subtle bit of tie in, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that the show isn't just all " You want a good girl, but you need the bad pussy "
  21. YOVMO

    King Gendry I Baratheon

    I believe your order is incorrect. The Targaryen's practice agnatic primogeniture by law which means all male Targaryens must be gone before a female can be considered. So it would be Jon, then Gendry then Dany. Gendry is, after Jon, the last male with Targaryen blood and as such his claim will be stronger than Dany's
  22. YOVMO

    King Gendry I Baratheon

    We know for a fact that Gendry was born in flea bottom. As a peasant he wouldn't even be given a bastard surname as that would be reserved for high born bastards. He would just be Gendry. But that aside, if he had decided to give himself a bastard surname it would be Gendry Waters because he was born in and lived in the Crownlands. However, after finding out about Robert it is possible he might have used Gendry Storm as his father was a Stormlander. For Gendry Rivers to be a reveal and not an egregiously sloppy error he would need some connection to the riverlands that he felt very strongly about. His mother worked in an ale house. So is it possible that his mother was actually a high born Riverlander? And if so is it possible Gendry found out about it off screen? And if so, is it possible that in that very short period of time, without ever having stepped foot there, the Riverlands became more important to him than the place of his birth and childhood or the place his revealed father, King Robert, was from? I mean...I suppose it is possible. But it wouldn't make any sense and I can't see it going anywhere. That said, that is 80% of the show for the last 2 seasons so who knows.
  23. YOVMO

    King Gendry I Baratheon

    Yes, you are correct which is why I mentioned aside from the actuality of taking a throne by force. My question is very much straight forward a line of succession question and as far as I can see the line of succession, given Gendry's legitimization, Goes Jon (who clearly wants no part of it) then Gendry then Dany. I agree the show wouldn't go too much into it, they are far too busy writing bad television with absolutely no coherent plot to do something interesting.
  24. force ghosts robert baratheon, ned stark and jon arryn (played by hayden christenseen) look on approvingly as everyone celebrates the end of the night king with fireworks and dancing.
  25. YOVMO

    Faceless Men and Iron Bank

    While excellent assassins, I don't believe the FM could field the kind of army that would stop invaders. Maybe if it was Aegon I where he was such a huge character and had a dragon that his (and his sisters) deaths would totally change the game but a serious army with a real chain of command and stuff wouldn't be rough. Think about a lannister force invading Braavos. Well equipped, well armed and armored and well trained. Even with Tywin looming larger than life, his death would have little bearing. There owuld be an already thought of plan involving ground invasion and ships etc. At its peak the lannisters could field 60,000 even if you believe in tons of tin foil about people being faceles men (and I am one of the people who does) even the most outside nutty guess would be about 30. If the Iron Bank wanted to resist an invasion force into westeros they would be better off hiring unsullied, free companies and a few faceless men and putting them under the command of a capable general. The bigger question is, what is in it for the bank to stop the invading force anyway?
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