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Elisabetta Duò

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  1. Elisabetta Duò

    [Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

    Well to me Jamie/Brienne and SanSan are quite different things for many reasons (intent of the Author, character development, influence of the characters on each other, outcome and others), but I don't wanna go into it (I'm not willing to start an off topic discussion about it... first because it's off topic - I mention it because somehow SanSan has been mentioned in this Jamie Brienne topic - and second, for personal reasons). Just pointing out that 'to everyone their own opinions' but it's not a similitude everyone agrees on (except for the obvious beauty/beast nod).
  2. Elisabetta Duò

    [Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

    Yeah, that would be frustrating indeed.
  3. Elisabetta Duò

    [Book Spoilers] Jaime & Brienne- What's going on?

    Same. I would love for them to make it, but i don't think they will (at least in the books, likelly in the show too). My prediction ... I think Jamie will end up dead (possibly in different moments in the books and the show... now the show will be more conventional about that i guess, but i think in the books it's even possible Jamie doesn't get full closure with his brother or with Brienne, maybe he won't even meet them, because that's what happens in life, especially if he dies murdering Cersei / committing some sort of sacrifice and/or murder-suicide: "we will leave this world together, as we once came into it... I cannot die while Cersei lives. We will die together as we were born together.") while Brienne will survive and in the end, she will lkely take what was Jamies place as Lord Commander of the King(Queen)sguard. That role defined Jamie's life for better and for worse and in a depressing way, it's kinda 'romantic' that she - who represents the kinight in the shining armor more than any man could ever do and who is the only living person (along with Tyrion) to recognize some inner honor in him and not judge him from the outside as a kingslayer because of Aerys - takes his place. I can already picture her in a room, alone and thoughtful/moved, while she adds the lines about Jamie heroically dying to save the Kingdom to the White book of the Kingsguard.
  4. Elisabetta Duò

    A+J=T v.9

    I wasn't even aware that some people thought Sweetrobin isn't Jon Arryn's child, i'm really a bad fan , the truth is I often focus only on the characters I'm more interested in. Anyway, I don't think that we as fans should be carried away and start believing that everyone is a bastard, Lysa had sex with Jon, she recalls those moments with Sansa and we have enough bastards in the series as it is (robert's ones, cersei+jamie's ones, Jon as lyanna's, possibly if the theory presented her is correct tyrion... I don't really think we would need another one). Anyway, I can't wait to find out how the whole Sansa-killing-a-giant-in-the-snow-castle will play out though...I've read the thread and I've seen how people debated about it and about who the giant is.
  5. Elisabetta Duò

    A+J=T v.9

    Exactly, it's not like I 'hate' the idea and I would accept it. I just won't really like it because I disagree with some of the A+J=T 'believers' that it wouldn't change for the worse the Tyrion-Tywin dynamic..besides that hey JKRowling killed both my fave characters so I'm old enough and i can certainly accept Tyrion=Targ... the Author does as he likes. Ok so better you stay away from GOT season 6, there is an event that some people interpreted as a proof that A+J=T.
  6. Elisabetta Duò

    A+J=T v.9

    I haven't reseatched the demon monkey thing enough… I read the wiki page of the Monkey King after reading your post and some other stuff, I tried to understand how much Martin is familiar with chinese mythology and if he ever read something about it but I didn't go further than that, so I'm not 'competent' enough to express my opinion here. Also, while I 'know' the greek/roman mythology because I'm italian and I had classical studies at the high school (so ancient greek antcient latin etc, they were my fave subjcets along with philosophy and history) I'm not into asian mythology at all and I'm not even into comics so I'm a profane at the very least when it comes to this stuff, I could easily misundestand the aim of the story. At first sight, some elements of this character are interesting (like the rebellion and being in jail), some others look out of place (like the incredible strength, the general attitude, etc). When I read the books and I noticed the repetition, I wondered whether a) he used the words demon monkey repeatedly while they're not relevant, hoping we wouldn't catch the gargoyle thing, thinking it irrelevant as well, or b ) the trolled us with the Monkey King reference c) he was truly referring to that mythological figure, but we don't know exactly to what extent and what part of his path will be relevant in our story (he did both terrible things and heroic things). As for the gargoyles, they surely have a connections with dragons, even if the gargoyle theme is complex and can be interpreted in many ways, there have been many interpretations here and on reddit and on quora I guess and on tumblr and anywhere else … we don't know if and how He will play with it. He may 'use' some aspects linked to the gargoyles mythology and not others (or use them all) and we don't know which aspects will play a part and to what extent. Tyrion = gargoyle is 100% clear, because of the literal references, because he was in charge of the cisterns and drains at GR, because of the pat-the-dwarf / pat-the-high-waist-gargoyle reference, because of the snarling. Still we don't know if he's implying one of more of these links: Tyrion = guardian, Tyrion = dragonTarg, Tyrion = dragon rider, Tyrion = garguille as a monster / evil figure, as Tyrion doing mischief once he gets to ride a dragon, Tyrion = gargoyle as sinner resembling a gargoyle and condemned to turning into a stone for his sins (developing belated greycale), Tyrion = gargoyle as stone dragon sacrificying himself to wake dragon from stone, Tyrion = etc. etc. etc. As far as I know, the 'original' gargoyle was a lion, not a dragon, meaning that in ancient aegypt and in ancient Grece gargoyles = lion's head. Then they kinda vanished when the Roman Empire fell. During the 12th century, when gargoyles appeared in Europe, many gargoyles were depicted as hybrids of more than one animal and many were some version of a dragon, especially in France. The Roman Chuch supported the idea that gargoyles were monsters and rappresentations of evil. The gargoyles are given a mostly positive meaning in some centuries, a mostly negative one in other centuries but usually they were given both a positive and negative meaning and traits at the same time, being at times considered as representations of the human nature. Isidoro di Siviglia (“Ethymologiae”) said that people who will sin should be given magical erbs to be transformed in smnstrous gargoyles being hallf men half animale, accoding with the old idea that physical degeneration was a clie of spiritual degeneration, an idea which came back with the nazist Reich, so they felt entitled to kill handicapped people and people with any disability or mental illnerss to preserve the spiritual health of Germany (sic). Martin is familiar with french history so I guess he knows also about the French legend about St. Romanus who was made bishop of Rouen, who won against a monster called Gargouille (dragon with batlike wings and the ability to breathe fire from its mouth). The monster was led back to Rouen and burned, but its head and neck would not burn due to being tempered by its own fire breath. The head was then mounted on the walls of the newly built church to scare off evil spirits and used for protection. Some say that gargoyles were guardians who scared the demons and made them stay away from the church, other historians say that the gargoyles were the demons that scared the people but people could seek refuge in the curches, others say they were evil monsters who lost against the church and were converted to true faith, or the souls of sinners who couldn't go inside the churches and were condemned to turn into stone because of their sins, or a symbol fo the fears fo the medieval man. They were also on the castles walls. I agree with you that the dreams are an interesting clue - even if they might even be a red herring, being too 'obvious' as a clue. It's just that these things (the gargoyle-dragons stuff) can foreshadow Tyrion being a dragon rider as well as Tyrion being a Targ (granted that He told you can be a dragon rider without being a Targ) or even something else. He has some characteristics that the Targs have, without being a Targ (who knows about the ancestors, I'm talking about Tywin). I don't know, call it a feeling if I'm being irrational, I just don't buy it that A+J=T. I agree it would be a powerful 'shock twist' (even if maybe an easy way out for the kinslayer thing) and it's not like I would hate it or anything (Tyrion is my fave character, as long as he's alive and doesn't turn into a gargoyle because of his 'sins', I don't care if he's a Targ or not, even if we disagree on the impact it would have on the Tyrion-Tywin dynamic), but I'm not onboard. I've read somewhere that GRRM told D&D about some twists, one of them happening near the end, so granted that R+L=J should be confirmed sooner than that, who knows maybe you're right, but my guts tell me otherwise.
  7. Elisabetta Duò

    A+J=T v.9

    IF the sphinx is a person, I think Tyrion may be the sphinx, hence the 'riddle' ("the Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler"): at a minimum, the sphinx had human head and lion body and he's a lion (=Lannister) with human face so he's half-man, half-lion (and he's noseless as the sphinx in popular culture and recent times (not in ancient egypt/greek one). When the sphinx has wings (for example in the grek mythology), they are hawk or eagle wings, not dragon wings. It's true they meet a Valyrian sphinx with a dragon's body and a woman's face, but that's just to let Tyrion say the obvious line “A dragon queen” = Daenerys ... and it's not how sphinxes usually are, even in ASOIAF. The sphinxes found at the Citadel have the body of a lion, the face of a human, the wings of an eagle and the tail of a serpent. In the story we have both male and female sphinxes, as the valyrian word for "prince" can allude both to a man or a woman. So some people suggested that the riddle would be that the prophecy can speak of a woman as much as of a man: dragons like sphinxes can be either male or female. If they are right, the sphinx is not a person. Anyway, the egyptian sphinx was a man and benevolent, while the greek one was a woman and malevolent. The greek version had often also snake tail and eagle wings. Both had a ferocious strength and both were thought of guardians, often of temples (as gargoyles are - also - guardians of churches and castles, so sphinxes = gargoyles in serving as grotesque stone guardians). If Tyrion is the sphinx, then we reasonably have to look for the egyptian one and not for the greek one when looking for clues, unless GRRM mixed things up and used both the mythologies. A mythological being with the body of a lion and the head of a human being is present also in the traditions, mythology and art of South and South-East Asia where it's known as man-beast or man-lion. During the mannerist period, there was a return to sphinxes in art, there was this female sphinx rendered as a recumbent lioness (french sphynx); sphinxes were revived in art when the "grotesque" decorations of the Nero's Domus Aurea were brought to light in late 15th-century Rome (where the term grotesque here refers to the extravagant style of Ancient Roman decorative art, long used largely interchangeably with arabesque and moresque for types of decorative patterns using curving foliage elements; only in more recent times, 18th century, grotesque has come to be used as a general adjective for the strange, fantastic, ugly, disgusting and thus is often used to describe weird shapes and distorted forms). The terms comes from the italian grotte (caves), because the grotesque paintings were found in Roman ruines that were called at that time Le Grotte (The Grottoes) due to their appearance (rooms and corridors of the Domus Aurea, the unfinished palace complex started by Nero after the Great Fire of Rome). Then we also have: It's quite ambiguous and open to debate if Moqorro did count Tyrion amongst the dragons or not. I think this may mean that Dragons and Tyrion are different things. There are all sort of dragons and then there's him, a snarling gargoyle = guardian = sphinx, in the midst of the mess. The dragons are listed as x,y,z, then there's a full stop. 'And you'. It's possible he was still counting him as a dragon, but it's more likely he didn't. Also, Tyrion mentions to Brown Ben Plumm most of the stories heard about dragons are fodder for fools, one of which is Dragons riddling with Sphinxes. Again, I think this means that dragons and sphinxes are usually two different things and - it's a stretch and I'm not sure of it but still a possibility - it might even mean that the man lion = sphinx (Tyrion) will riddle with the Dragon (Daenerys), he will be playing riddles with her, she won't understand him or his true intentions so he will be the lion who betrays her. It's maybe too obvious (tyrion is basically the only lion interacting with daenerys), but I just thought that given how things are now, I can't see Tyrion sticking with her in the long run.. their approach to power is completely different (he's a politician and a reformer, she's a conqueror and a revolutionary) and i think he will end up thinking she lost it and he will change side (maybe aligning himself with Jon? i don't know, it depends on how it all will play out..the fire to destroy the white walkers, etc.) Anyway, all the references scream 'Tyrion = noseless lion-man = sphinx = grotesque guardian = gargoyle' to me. The people who favor A+J=T think that Tyrion = sphinx => he's a targ; I'm not onboard with A+J=T, so I'm personally more inclined to think that IF he's the sphinx, it foreshadows something else (one of the reasons for Tyrion being the sphinx is him being a lion = lannister, not a dragon), maybe him being a riddle as being a dragon rider without being a Targ (or being a descendant of a Targaryen through his direct line of ancestors), having a special connection with dragons and being able to influence them (waking dragons from stone, fending evil off, whatever, etc.), a connection which is still unclear and which might have many different outcomes (especially the gargoyle theme, which has been interpreted in many different ways, all of them nicely put and somehow convincing) or maybe even something else about his role as a guardian in the fight against the others (Mormont said to him "we need men like you ON the wall" = stone guardian as gargoyles on the walls, not a man fighting AT the wall). They will need to figure out the 'riddle'. Others think of Alleras ("A sphinx is a bit of this, a bit of that: a human face, the body of a lion, the wings of a hawk. Alleras was the same: his father was a Dornishman, his mother a black-skinned Summer Islander."). Others imply that this reference makes Tyrion the sphinx as a targ, because his mother and his father are from different houses as alleras parents were. I think that it was just a simpler misdirection like 'looook it's alleras!' while it's not him. Others think of somebody else, because when Maester Aemon is talking about "the sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler," it was in the context of the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised. so that he might be talking about the valyrian sphinx as it is more closely related to valyrian society/mythology, so about somebody being half dragon (Jon?). If the sphinx is Daenerys (dragon + woman face), then she's the riddle because we don't know if she'll be benevolent or malevolent, whehter she's turning into a mad conqueror burning everything she doesn't like like her father or not... the riddle will be how she will behave. Or maybe it's none of them, the sphinx statue at the Citadel might even mean that the Citadel's intentions are the riddle itself (cheap theory but still, just to say it's not necessarily a person). Anyway, we'll see. GRRM let us understand Tyrion will be a dragon rider since 1996, when he said "oh, if Tyrion could fly..." as well as, imo, he let us know Tyrion is Tywin son, when he said Tyrion was named by "his father" and Jon "by Ned".
  8. Elisabetta Duò

    A+J=T v.9

    I do love Tyrion, he is my fave character and I still don't think he is a Targ, nor I would like it. There is at least 1 alternative explanation for basically all the supposed clues listed here, but honestly, unless one wants to spend all their time here arguing, it would take too much time… we'll find out soon (at least those of us who watch the show ...this year or in a couple of years). As for any category of fans, there are many different types of fan. If he turns out to be, fine, I'll accept it, GRRM can do as he likes, but it would ruin the whole Tyrion-Tywin dynamic imo.
  9. Elisabetta Duò

    A+J=T v.9

    cheers
  10. Elisabetta Duò

    A+J=T v.9

    Yes I am, thank you :-) Yes it's fun, isn't it? I'm not really sure if it will lead us to Tyrion's connection with dragons or to him developing belated greyscale and die/ become a gargoyle (I hope not, but...) or if is has some other metaphorical meaning, but I think it's relevant. (I knew that quote, but thanks for reminding me of that... when I first read it had me concerned.. I mean, in some old interview he called Tyrion 'the villain', then he talked about 'mischief', I just hope he doesn't want to turn Tyrion in a 100% revengeful a** after he gets to ride Viserion. I think Tyrion will get revenge (Viserion is described as having a roar able to send a hundred lions running and because when they follow the red comet, Viserion sinks his teeth in the lion's mane), I just hope he doesn't do just that, I hope he can somehow find his place and some peace. I think his fate at the end of the series is less certain than most of people think, especially if GRRM is still convinced of having the Tyrion+Jon+Arya(or Sansa) love triangle and turn he and Jon into rivals... and it pains me to tell this because he's my fave character).
  11. Elisabetta Duò

    A+J=T v.9

    I didn't mean that Tywin using this name was a proof that Tyrion is a Lannister, I meant that GRRM choosing this name for him is a proof that he is a Lannister, if you get what I mean. Of course you may be right and actually the (only) reason for this name is that Tywin named him after Tyrion the II, but I don't believe it because the names usually have a purpose in the Author's perspective (which is not the same purpose they have in the characters' perspective, which is often different or unclear and basically irrelevant): Joanna didn't name Cersei that way because the baby reminded her of Circe (who didn't even exist in Westeros' history), it's GRRM who made a statement with the name, he established a clear connection betweem these two female figures, he wanted Cersei to recall Circe because of the role she would have in the series. Same with Jamie. So I assume it's the same with Tyrion. It doesn't really matter why Tywin named him Tyrion, what really matters is why GRRM wanted him to be named Tyrion and I think it's to symbolize that he's his father's 'true son'. This is a very clever observation, if you don't mind me saying. I admit I didn't think of it. But if it's true, then Jon wouldn't be techinically a Targ as well so GRRM should have said that the second and the third heads didn't need to be Targs, while he mentioned only the third. Yes. As I was saying, I think with this 'not necessarily' he meant the third is not a Targ, without being too obvious about it. I agree with you that being one of the heads and being a dragon rider is not the same, one can be a dragon rider and not one of the heads.. I don't know what Tyrion will be, all I know is that imo he will ride Viserion. If he's also one of the heads or not, I wouldn't know for sure: if he is, though, then he's not a Targ in my opinion because Daenerys and Jon are and I think this is what GRRM meant even if he said 'not necessarily'; i talked about that only because people who think that A+J=T often uses Tyrion's connections with dragons as a proof he's a Targ. I think the two topics are independent. Thanks for replying, btw! I am kinda new in this forum (I've written just about 40 posts I think) so I do appreciate that you took the time to answer.
  12. Elisabetta Duò

    A+J=T v.9

    I agree, he has been named by Tywin (Joanna named Cersei and Jamie). We just disagree on the reason behind the name.. I think he named him with the typical Ty-name before he knew he was a dwarf, you think he wanted to 'divert' attention from the fact he was a bastard and people might suspect about it given Aerys behavior. Yes you are right, GRRM's words were that you were not necessarily to be a Targaryen, he didn't mention the blood, but I summarized it that way because in my perspective it's the same when it comes to Tyrion ... either he's Tywin son (hence a Lannister) or he's Aerys son (hence a Targaryen). Almost everyone in Westeros has at least a drop Targaryen blood if you go back in time enough with the ancestors to find it, so if Tyrion is able to ride a dragon as a Lannister, to me it's definitely not because of that odd drop of Targaryen blood that he might have and almost everyone else could find in themselves, but because of other reasons GRRM has not made clear yey (I find Tyrion's connections with Gargoyles very relevant to this extent, for example, a good summary is here - I don't know the guy who wrote it: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/30cith/spoilers_all_tyrion_gargoyles_and_the_implications/ ). What Martin said is "Three heads of the dragon... yes... but the third will not nessesarily BE a Targaryen..." . So if one is Daenerys (Targ) and the second is Jon (Targ), that means that Tyrion will be head of the dragon without being a Targ (he says 'necessarily', but let's be honest, what he means is that the third is not a Targ). Therefore, the only situation in which I would believe Tyrion might be a Targ, is that R+L=J is false so that Deanerys and Tyrion are Targ and Jon is not (which I don't think it is, unless GRRM changed his original plan just to spite us because we all figured it out ages ago).
  13. Elisabetta Duò

    A+J=T v.9

    Tyrion is NOT a Targaryen imo (it would be cheap if GRRM used the same 'trick' two times and R+L=J is 99% going to happen, Tyrion's relationship with Tywin is one of the most deep and meaningful on the show and it's not meant as a cover up for a Targ twist, GRRM said you don't need Targ blood to be a dragon rider, Tyrion's connection with dragons as set up since book 1 may have another explanations, etc. etc.) even though I think he will ride Viserion, that's pretty obvious since book 1, because Viserion is smaller in size than any other dragon, he's gold and he has a roar able to send a hundred lions running..and when they followed the red comet he sank his teeth in the lion's mane.. so the dragon may be the instrument of the revenge against the Lannisters who wronged Tyrion. Tywin hates him because: 1) he's a dwarf; 2) he 'killed' Joanna 3) he suspects - better, he wants to believe - that Tyrion is not his own (because it would make easier for him to live with 1) and 2) and behaves accordingly to his belief Even assuming Tywin wanted to hint / believed that Tyrion were a bastard and acted that way, what Tywin thinks is not necessarily the truth. Tyrion is, in my opinion, a Lannister to boots and 'truly Twyin's son', the one who is best suited to follow his father's steps (if only his father could see that), he has his father's instincts for politics + that bit of compassion which might make him similar to the man Tywin was before Joanna died. His name is GRRM's way to underline this aspect, imo. He didn't choose names randomly, just for example Cersei is clearly named after Omero's Circe. Jamie might be a joke for J'aime. Tyrion's name starts with the "Ty-" prefix, like his father Tywin and his grandfather Tytos (and Tygett, Tybolt, Tygett, Tyrek, Tya Lannister). Similar names are later used elsewhere but they mostly came from the same source (Tya married a Baratheon) and nowhere you find a concentration of Ty-prefix names as huge as with the Lannister family. Other houses use other prefixes (Aemon, Aegon, etc.). The Ty = Lannister thing is very fitting because I've read that Ty = Land and the Lannisters are known for their wealth in a world where land is one of the status symbols along with gold (which is one of the Lannisters' colors), even their family name Lannister looks like an ibrid between Lancaster and Land and smells of 'Land-owner/runner', so it fits them that their names start with a syllabe meaning land, as a synonym of power. Tyrion embodies both Land (Ty-prefix) and gold (he's never short of gold and uses it to buy allies, to buy freedom, etc.) because metaphorically he would be the best suited to follow after Tywin, the only one with his skills and inheriting his capability in politics (Tywin, as stern and cold hearted as he was, has been the best Hand of the King ever for 20 yrs…). If taken almost literally, his name might even be foreshadowing that Tyrion is meant to inherit Casterly Rock, if he survives...the son with the Ty-prefix inherits the land. With this, I'm NOT implying Jamie and Cersei are not Lannisters. They definitely are to me. It's just that it suited GRRM better to have them all named for specific aspects he wanted to underline. He wanted Tyrion to be the only 'true son' of Tywin. In the narrative, it's easy to justify that only Tyrion was given the Ty-name because Joanna (who ruled Tywin) got away with naming their first child (the twins) so that the Ty-name was given to the next son … so Tyrion was probably named before he was born, so his father didn't know he was a dwarf. But the real reason is that GRRM wanted to give the characters names that were linked with the character. In AFFC, we learn that Tyrion was a name given to Kings before Aegon: even if I don't think this is foreshadowing of Tyrion being King, I think that as Cersei knew that, Tywin had to know that as well and probably resented Tyrion even more, because he had high expectations for him, named him with a Ty-name suitable for a King, and he was born a dwarf and 'killed' Joanna. This, unless we suppose that Tyrion was named specifically after King Tyrion II Lannister the Tormenter, who was said to enjoy sex with women only after he made them bleed (basically he was a Jeoffrey), as little Tyrion made Joanna blead to death and/or was born to torment Tywin. I dont think so though: King Tyrion I and King Tyrion III were apparently honorable Kings and I can't see Tywin givin a dwarf ANY Ty- name, not even the one of a tormenter and especially if there were other honorable Kings with that name. He wouldn't give a dwarf the name of a King, end of. If any of this rant about names is correct, there are slim chances he isn't a Lannister, so the Targ theory has to be wrong, because GRRM would have known since the start if Tyrion whether a Targ or not and I would exclude he named him Tyrion as red herring (too small as a clue to be a red erring, hence genuine clue).
  14. Elisabetta Duò

    A Compendium of Theories v.2

    Hi I'm new (and not a mother tongue) so forgive me if I'm doing something wrong with the reply, but I don't think I've seen the theory - many people think it's true - that says Tyrion will die in the end from a belated form of greyscale killing him from inside out, turning into a gargoyle and so fullfilling both the prediction that his mouth will be his end and the dream he had in ACOK: The key points of the theory are: 1- Twyin, Varis and Tyrion himself always said he'll die because of his inability to keep his mouth shut. 2 - when he swallows black water (potentially getting greyscale), it happens like that: 3- back in ACOK, he had a dream where he was experiecing exactly the same that happens to people who suffer from greyscale 4- greyscale can be silent for a long period of time and start from inside, so one can't tell he's ill 5- Tyrion is constantly compared to gargoyles (as Shireen, who suffered from greyscale also was), so that he might literally turn into stone (because he didn't just get touched, he swallowed half the river) and so literally become stone resembling a little gargoyle I have to say if this Tyrion's endgame I'm going to ask for my money back, but it seems pretty likely unless it's misdirection.
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