TheBlackSwan

The GEOTD theory isn't really solid, it's based on assertions and doesn't connect with the story, Alabstur already deconstruct this theory in his video The Fall of The Great Empire of the Dawn while he argues that the Children of the Forest are the ones who taught the Valyrians their arts, a theory which has better arguments, connects very well with the story and is supported by the tv series. The two theories won't fit together because LML is most likely wrong, there were no dragonriders before the Valyrians, and the Bloodstone Emperor didn't trigger the Long Night. The Seven-Pointed Star state that an Andal king, Hughor of the Hill, received a vision from the Seven of promised lands to conquer. The maesters reject this explanation and suggest that the Andals may have fled the Valyrian expansion. There are others example of the maesters rejecting the supernatual legend when it's the correct answer (such as the Others, the irregular seasons or the Valyrian's prophecy about the doom of men coming from Westeros) so the Seven-Pointed Star is not far fetched... Both could be right since there are theories of multiple waves of Andals. In his Grand Unified Theory, u/wildrussy argue there were 2 waves and for Company of the Cat, They Came in 3 Waves. It is say that some people claim the Five Forts were built by the Pearl Emperor. Martin talked about those kind of allegations: in Westeros, Bran the Builder is credited with multiple constructions such as the Wall, Winterfell, Storm's End, the Hightower. When people don't know who build those structures, they are more likely to claim that they were built by a legenday figure when it's not the case... No one knows who built the Five Forts nor why. The Five Forts were built against the Others? Well you just mentioned that the Others were made by the Singers in Westeros because the First Men were invading... Westeros. They signed the Pact in... Westeros. The Last Hero in a Westerosi myth who fought the Others in... Westeros. There are no traces of the Others in Essos so if the legends of the Five Forts are true, if there were demons in Essos, they probably weren't Others. The Long Night is describe as the first long winter, it would be strange for winters to be caused by meteor impacts for 5,000 years without anyone noticing, and if meteors are responsible for long winters, what causes long summers? Greenhouse gases released by the ruins of Valyria? Martin said the explanation would be magical, it seems he's more interested in what winter and summer represent than in the scientific cause of the manifestations (dust blocking the sun, the planet's axis and orbital plane, etc.). The series' story could be right, it provides a logical explanation for the creation of the Others. The Singers tried to stop the invasion by splitting the continent in two twice, it failed twice, no need to try again. Men are warriors, they reproduce faster, they're better equipped, so the Singers, on the brink of extinction, made their own warriors, the Others who could turn the number of men against them, it seemed the best strategy. The First Men were unable to defeat the Others and gave up the war, signing the Pact. In the books, we don't know why the First Men gave up, they had the whole continent, they could have exterminated the Singers for good... unless the Others were created but that would have happened so long ago that people would have forgotten about it or maybe there are traces left on the runes that no one can decipher and in the trees, as Jojen says: the trees remember things now forgotten in Winterfell. Did a Long Night happened during that time? Maybe. If the Others can influence winter with their ice magic (seasons and magic being part of nature they could interact with each other), they might have done so and once the war was over, they brought it back to normal since they were still under the control of the Singers.

Is it really a theory? The Night's Watch was made during the Long Night and fought the Others during t the battle of the Dawn: It would be pretty hard to built an enormous fortification like the Wall during a long winter that could have blizzards and dead people attacking. The Wall was mostly build after the Others were push back, probably during a long summer. So I don't think the Night's King appeared during the Long Night either, it would be later once the Wall was built.

Apart from being man-made (not volcanic glass like obsidian) and made of steel, Lightbringer and obsidian have the same powers. Martin said there is a reason why obsidian is call "dragonglass" and that he had given obsidian magical properties. We can see that in the scene where Sam kills the Other with the dragonglass dagger. From that scene we can see what the dragonglass can do: Generate heat, burn in contact with an Other Kill an Other, melting him Once the Other gone, the obsidian turns back cold and remains intact We know from other characters that obsidian is link to fire magic, it can generate fire, can burn without deteriorating: So obsidian is glass that can generate fire like dragon and that's why it's call "dragonglass". Its fire magic powers can kill the magical ice demons. Dragonglass is too brittle to be useful against enemies with weapons strong enough to strike steel, the glass would shatter, as demonstrated in the scene where Sam tried to stab Small Paul with the obsidian dagger: the dagger shattered against the chain mail. It would therefore be logical to transfer obsidian's powers to a more resistant weapon, one made of steel. Sam found one tale of the Last Hero slaying the Others with a blade of "dragonsteel". By the name and the fact that it could kill the Others it's fair to assume that "dragonsteel" is a steel that that can generate fire like a dragon, a steel that has the same powers as obsidian. So the Last Hero blade would be a blade that can generate heat, when stabbing an Other, the Other would melt. A blade that generate is also the perfect counter to the Other's blades made of ice since those blades will frost regular steel but a blade heated would melt that frost... Here's how Lightbringer is describe: A blade that generate heat, burn into battle (against the Others and their blades of ice) and melt a demon (an Other). Lightbringer is name given to the dragonsteel sword of the Last Hero. The hero that R'hllorist claims to be their god's champion, Azor Ahai, is in fact the Last Hero. The Nissa Nissa tale? It's what the Last Hero did after his sword shattered when he faced the Others, he made a special to be able to fight them. Dragonsteel is a steel rooted in fire and blood magic. Their is only one magical steel link to fire and blood magic in the story: Valyrian steel.

Azor Ahai, Hyrkoon, Neferion, Yin Tar, etc are just name given to the hero who fought the Ohters, the Last Hero. Yandel dismiss the possibility that a group of men would have known how to tame dragons before the Valyrians, as he said, if they were men they would have use the dragon to conquer the world. The GEOTD aren't as known dragonriders, we know nothing about their magic. The best candidates are the Singers. They aren't conquerors like men, they know skinchanging, they helped the Last Hero to forge a fire magical steel with a blood sacrifice which is basically what valyrian steel is, their greenseer can see events at long distances and contact people into their dreams which is exactly what a valyrian glass candle do, they can shape stone with magic like the valyrians, they craft obsidian like the Valyrains. Their magic can be refer as "song" and "singing", the Long Night ended with a secret song, Valyria rise just after the Long Night, the Dragonglords are the song of fire. Here's what Martin said about the incest: Azor Ahai is not the original hero, the legend of Asshai mentions a unnamed hero, its legend spread west and people appropriate the myyth. R'hllorist claims that it was their god's champion, Azor Ahai but that's their religious belief. Now the legend speaks about a hero fighting the "darkness" and darkness is how the Others appears in visions. So the Ashaii legend is in fact a vision about a hero fighting the Others and where do we find them? In Westeros, the hero is in fact the Last Hero. Now let's take a look of the Last Hero and Azor Ahai tales. THE LAST HERO PART I The Last Hero was looking for the Children, he faced the Others and his sword get destroyed, most likely because of their blades of ice that can shatter steel. So the Last Hero have no sword, he can't get a regular blade since they are useless against the Others. He needs a special sword... AZOR AHAI PART I So "Azor Ahai" needed a special sword to oppose the "darkness", the Others. He makes a blood sacrifice to forge a magical blade. THE LAST HERO PART II The Last Hero has now a magical sword that can deal with the Others. I wonder how he get it? If only there was a tale about a hero who needs a magical sword and makes one... Also what can that dragonsteel sword do? Seems it can kill the Others and the only thing we know that can kill the Others is obsidian, "dragonglass", a glass that generate fire like a dragon. Stabb an Other with a dragonglass blade and he will melt so maybe the dragonsteel blade is a blade that generate heat like the dragonglass, stabbing an Other with such blade will have the same result. Also a blade that generate heat will counter the frost from the Others' blades made of ice. AZOR AZAI PART II "Azor Ahai" slaying an Other with a blade that generate fire and the Other melt... hmm that sound familiar... Azor Ahai / Lightbringer = The Last Hero / dragonsteel blade. The Nissa Nissa tale is the part where the Last Hero makes the dragonsteel, a magical steel rooted in fire and blood magic that has the same powers as obsidian, dragonglass.

Or maybe the legend is just a romanticized version of what really happened. There was no wife offering her bosom, sacrificing herself to make this magical steel. It was a human sacrifice, the person certainly not being okay to die, but the facts are romanticized by the religion's priests to paint what happened in a better light so as not to show the one they consider their savior to be a horrible person. We have no reason to believe that these events took place as the priests, the religious texts claim, they are not objective.

But wouldn't she tell Jaime? He tried to kill Bran, so I doubt she'd be ashamed to tell him she'd finished the job so they'd be safe.

They are based on the Asshaii ancient legend: So this legend spread westwards, and cultures appropriated it, giving this hero different names like Hyrkoon, Azor Ahai, etc. That legend is most likely based on visions since the hero is said to be fighting the "darkness" and that's how the Others appears in visions: So the hero with his red sword fighting the darkness, leading virtuous men into the battle that brought back the day was in fact fighting the Others. Let's take a look on the legends of the only part of the world that mentions the Others and their army of undead... Only in Westerosi tales we can find an accurate and detailed description of the Others and their powers: their army of undead, the blades of ice that can shatter steel, the fact they flee the sun, take babies etc... and that's because they were only in Westeros. They came from the Land of Always Winter that only Westeros is connected to. And most importantly, we find the tales of a hero, the Last Hero, who fought the "darkness", the Others, with a red sword, the dragonsteel blade, leading virtuous people, the first men of the Night's Watch, into a battle that will brought back the day, the battle of the Dawn. The hero that the red priests claim to be Azor Ahai, their god's warrior, is in fact the Last Hero. The first book introduce us to the Last Hero. He went looking for the Singers and the power of the Old Gods to end the Long Night and defeat the Others. Unfortunately, the cold shadows catch up to him and his sword break (most likely fighting them, like Waymar Royce) but he managed to survived and found the Singers who will help him. People say we don't know what happened to him after that, but now that we've shown that Azor Ahai is in fact the Last Hero, his next move is obvious: Since his sword broke and since regular steel is useless against the Others, Azor Ahai the Last Hero had to make a magical sword that could deal with the Others and their blades of ice, a sword "like none that had ever been". The Lightbringer tale is how the Last Hero made the dragonsteel, a magical woven is fire and blood magic. No surprise that when we heard back from him, he now has one: People never really wonder how did the Last Hero got his dragonsteel sword. If only there was a legend about a hero forging a magical sword... And people never wonder what this sword can do. After all, the legends say that the Others don't fear iron; their sword of ice can freeze and shatter steel. So how can he slay the Others with his dragonsteel sword? Well, coincidentally once again, "Azor Ahai" returns in the next book with a description of his sword killing an Other... Lightbringer, the dragonsteel sword do the exact same thing that obsidian, the dragonglass dager did when Sam stab the Other with it. It's in the name "dragonglass", a glass that generate fire like a dragon, a glass that can burn without deteriorating and that's what the "dragonsteel" sword, Lightbringer, could do as describe in the Jade Compendium. So Essos in not full of "Azor-Ahai-ish figure", Hyrkoon, Neferion, all the other ones and even Azor Ahai (especially AA...) are based on the Last Hero.

The Singers and the power of the Old Gods seems to have been essential. They sang a song, probably the song of fire which might have triggered the first long summer.

But obsidian is magic. Obsidian is glass that can generate fire like a dragon, that can burn without deteriorating hence "dragonglass". That's what we saw when Sam kills the Others, the dagger remains intact. These magical properties are pretty important, as you say Beric and Thoros flaming swords were pretty useless because they break and they break because the fire has damaged the blades and Salladhor San says that Stannis' Lightbringer is wrong because it's a burnt sword. Understanding that obsidian is called "dragonglass" (and "frozen fire") because of its magical properties allows us to make a link with the weapon used by the Last Hero to slay the Others: the dragonsteel sword. If "dragonglass" could kill the Others, then the "dragonsteel" must be a steel that can generate fire like a dragon, burn and stay intact. A steel that possess the same power as obsdian without being brittle as the glass... The only sword being describe like that is Lightbringer. As the Others have ice swords that can destroy steel, it was only logical that the Last Hero, having faced them and broken his sword, should then set about forging a weapon that could counter them. All this helps to explain that the priests of R'hllor perceived the Last Hero as the warrior of their god, Azor Ahai, and named his dragonsteel sword, Lightbringer. Now with just have to search for a magical steel made with blood and fire magic...

This is probably where Tysha went after she was raped, back home.

George R.R. Martin - Talk To Al Jazeera I think so. The Others are said to be threaten the world with a never ending winter but if Daenerys is victorious, R'hllorists claims she would bring a never ending summer? I think the Others and the Dragonlords are connected to the magic of ice and fire and those magical forces are connected to the seasons. The title is also a reference to Frost's poem in which ice and fire, although opposing forces, they can destroy the world. So if the Others wins, if ice magic take over, an ice age that would end the world, if the Dragonlords remains, fire magic will cause an never ending scorching heatwave. Get rid of them, the seasons will back to normal.

I think the quotes are quite suggestive, there is the waves hammering, the giants shaking the ground. If it can describe an earthquake and tsunami how could they omit the big rock coming from outer space? Bringing a meteor doesn't seem to fit with the magic of the Children, with how they are in touch with nature. Yeah I find his theory too tinfoily. There is no evidence that the Great Empire of the Dawn had dragons. They aren't known as dragon riders. There is no proof that they built the Five Forts, we just have "some people claim". Its frontiers are define and Asshaii was not part of it. Ashai'i don't know who were the ancient people who taught the Valyrians their arts and how to tame the dragons, they say they came from the Shadows which was not part of the GEotD. And Yandel dismiss that legend because if Men had dragons, they would have used it to conquer. It clearly implies that those people weren't men which fit with the whole "elder races" that populated the world before the arrival of humans, like the Children of the Forest, presented in TWOIAF. The Bloodstone Emperor is clearly a nod to Lovecraft. Lovecraft has stories about the The Church of Wisdom worshipping a black stone with red veins from outer space, practising blood sacrifices for an evil god.

Just Sam being clumsy. The Hammer of the Water must refer to the way waves break against the rocks: Why would it be a meteor? There is no mention of a big rock or ball of fire coming down from the sky to describe the breaking of the Arm... The waves hammering the rocks, the Hammer of the Water. Such destructive waves must be a tsunami, caused by an earthquake: "waking up giants" is a way to describe an earthquake. The Children, trying the stop the First Men colonization, provoked an earthquake to destroy the Arm of Dorne and later, to flood the Neck. Pushed back into the Land of Always Winter, the Children understood that it would be useless to do that a third time and, instead, made a group of warriors to fight for them, change the tide of war, they made the Others.

Valyrians are from Valyria... sure Valyria wasn't the big empire that it's known for but it was there like Martin said in the quote I posted. And Old Ghis existed also during the Long Night. If we look at the timeline it says that after the Long Night, Old Ghis saw that Valyria had dragons, they attacked the dragon lords to try to get their hands on these powerful weapons, 5 wars broke out, the last one launching the expansion of the Valyrian empire. The last war happened 5.000 years. Martin confirmed that the Long Night happened closer to 5.000 years BC. So Valyria was around the Long Night and it's probable that they got the dragons and the spells to forge valyrian/dragonsteel towards the end of the Long Night, that the Children of the Forest are the one who taught them those arts. History is written by the victors... and Alabastur has a great video to explain that aswell with serious proof that the Andals covered up their responsability: ASoIaF Timeline Theory - the Andal Coverup Not sure that you will watch so I'll just reuse the quotes. For the "well documented": So what we know from the Dawn Age was written by the Andals and the Andals didn't know much, same for the Age of Heroes: Like Sam said in A Feast For Crows So we can't really believe in what the Andals wrote, especially if they are responsible for the Long Night. What we think we know of what happened during that time come from the Andals and especially one of their book call "True History" (weird name...) and some accounts from that book are dubious. When a character says that the Long Night happened 8.000 years ago, he is referring to True History but some maesters contest it and we know they are right. Alabastur has a serious argument about that and it's High Heart. He remind us that the Children likes to live beneath hills and weirwoods and that High Heart is a really large hill, a hill that is above the clouds. It also has 31 weirwoods, High Hearts could have been a really important place for the Children, like their capital. But it was destroyed and the Children slaughtered and we have 2 stories of what may have happened: - The first one are from songs/legends. They says that the Children and the First Men team up to protect High Heart from the Andals but they got slaughtered and the weirwood were cut down. - The second version is from the book True History, it says that when the Andals arrived, High Heart was already destroyed and the Children had already left the Riverlands thousands of years before. If True History is right, what did put an end to the Pact between the Children and the First Men leading to the Long Night? They were living in peace together... unless True History is just a covered up, the Children and the First tried to repel the Andals but they got slaughtered, the destruction of High Heart put an end to the Pact and triggered the Long Night, the Others.

Valyria did exist during the Long Night but the dragonsteel could be the first valyrian steel made before the Valyrian started to make it and got famous under the name that it's currently known for. As for the Andals, I doubt Martin made an error, the timeline is blurry because they don't have the same tools that modern society have: But it seems they were already in Westeros during the Long Night, they might be responsible for it when they started to destroy the weirwoods, ending the Pact between the Children and the First Men. Look for @Alabastur works, he made some really strong arguments about these: Who Taught the Valyrians to tame dragons (the post on the forum if you want to talk about it) ASoIaF Timeline Theory: Andals in the Long Night - Game of Thrones Also, it's doubtful that the Others hates iron. The only time it's mentioned, it's by Old Nan. She is reporting tales and superstitions and one of our popular belief is "cold iron": So it's more likely an invention by Old Nan, a superstition, especially since the old books found in the Night's Watch library says that steel is useless against the Others:

Not everyone found it by themselves. Also in 2005: « Someone asked about R+L=J and if he would change the story because everyone seems to be on to that. I thought it was interesting that he didn't restate the part about Rheager/Lyanna when he repeated the question so everyone to hear. He restated it as, would you change something because people online have theories (ie to make them be wrong). And he asked how many people talked on internet boards and only a few people raised their hands, so he pointed out that theories that are rampant on the internet aren't known by everyone. He also says he doesn't read the online posting boards so he doesn't see the theories unless someone emails it to him. » https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2005/11

That's what I was implying, R+L=J being the most popular theory about Jon Snow parentage means Martin was referring to that theory. :p 14 years before that interview he even said something similar when someone asked him about R+L=J

Yeah I wouldn't use the show to confirmed that theory. But there is this declaration: “The internet affects all this to a degree it was never affected before,” Martin tells EW when asked about fan reaction to the final season. “Like Jon Snow’s parentage. There were early hints about [who Snow’s parents were] in the books, but only one reader in 100 put it together. And before the internet that was fine — for 99 readers out of 100 when Jon Snow’s parentage gets revealed it would be, ‘Oh, that’s a great twist!’ But in the age of the internet, even if only one person in 100 figures it out then that one person posts it online and the other 99 people read it and go, ‘Oh, that makes sense.’ Suddenly the twist you’re building towards is out there.” https://ew.com/tv/2019/07/15/george-rr-martin-game-thrones-fan-reactions/ There aren't a lot of popular theory about Jon Snow's parentage that were popular before the show and we can see he already talk about that 17 years ago: « Someone asked about R+L=J and if he would change the story because everyone seems to be on to that. I thought it was interesting that he didn't restate the part about Rheager/Lyanna when he repeated the question so everyone to hear. He restated it as, would you change something because people online have theories (ie to make them be wrong). And he asked how many people talked on internet boards and only a few people raised their hands, so he pointed out that theories that are rampant on the internet aren't known by everyone. He also says he doesn't read the online posting boards so he doesn't see the theories unless someone emails it to him. » https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2005/11 To me, Martin's declaration with EW in 2019 confirmed R+L=J.