Sinnie

What a nice, lovely and mature thing to say. Welcome to the forum? I don't recall mentioning Victarion once, or using the word awesome. I'm not sure you fully understood the point of my post. Psychopathy is not the description for every single person who does things we may not like. My point was that the word 'evil' and 'psychopath' are being passed out to describe all of these characters without considering any of the nuance to their particular presentation. Have you ever met any people in real life who have done any of these things? The most striking thing about teenagers who have raped children, murdered members of their family, hurt others for fun is just how normal they are. Often they are scared, vulnerable, lonely and had such terrible experiences that they are completely unsure of which way is up. I am aware that these are books and aren't going to mirror real life exactly in that level of detail. But it is quite an important distinction to make that just because someone does things that are completely outside of what is acceptable, does not mean the whole person is evil, full of hate and can only do bad things. In my post, I also suggested considering the context of their society, it affords certain freedom to act to those in power while also setting some expectations on ruthlessness; therefore a higher level of distasteful acts are going to be seen and accepted. The original comment was that Euron was too flat as a character, simply the cartoonish dark lord. That was taking him as being 'evil', doing 'evil' things and having no redeeming qualities. I'm trying to say that there is no single person alive, ever, who is born evil, or is wholly evil. I'd consider Euron to be more mentally unwell than psychopathic, he appears to be blending fantasy with reality much more than Joffrey or Ramsey do. This may not change anything in terms of how Euron comes across on the page, perhaps GRRM is making his character too flat. but I'd be surprised if his inspiration for the character and what he knows about what is bubbling under the surface is purely "Euron is evil". We haven't seen enough of him on the page yet to divine his intentions, what his previous experiences have been and what internal drivers are at work for him. But my guess is that he is hallucinating, having extreme fantasies, or is being manipulated by an outside force.

Just on the topic of 'evil' characters and whether Euron (and others) are a bit cookie-cutter villainesque.The 'evil' word has been thrown around a lot, as well as 'psychopath'. I think we can pick a few good exemplars of the generally not nice characters of the books: Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsey and Euron. I think it's important to remember the context that these characters live in. All are members of great houses which affords a certain amount of latitude and leniency in terms of behaviour (i.e. they can get away with all kinds of stuff), throw into that the familial issues that come from having to live up to that greatness and common lack of proper parenting due to father's often being off fighting wars and stuff. Plus, a certain ruthlessness was required to maintain their position at the top of the pile. Similarly, everyone has the capacity to commit quite heinous acts, books-wise, take a look at Ned. We find meet him when he beheads a man of the nights watch who ran away from his post because he saw a white walker. Either you think he is not telling the truth and therefore has gone 'mad', in which case, beheading a mad man is quite a callous thing to do, or you believe him and you're beheading him because he is too scared to stay at the wall instead of finding him a less front-line role, which is also a rather callous action. Ned has his reasons, in the context, they are even considered noble. From our modern societal perspective, he just straight up executed a scared man - but on reality basis, Ned has to maintain authority and such actions are sometimes required. Take a real world example, quite a number of rich and powerful people are being investigated and convicted of sexual offences - something about that position of power that awakens the unsightly beast within us all. What's my point? On the whole, I'd say neither Tywin or Cersei are psychopaths, or indeed, have a similar mental disorder. Cersei is probably more traumatised than anything. Tywin grew up with people laughing at his house, he is a proud man and came to realise that the best path to restore his house involved quite bloodthirsty and callous methods. He is very much a product of his circumstances, I wouldn't consider him to be particularly 'evil'. He will care about his family, he has twisted that somewhat, but he would never deliberately act against them. Tyrion is actually a bit of a mystery - the fact that he is a dwarf should make little difference to Tywin, it seems like an odd reason to actively despise your own child. I have two thoughts on that, either he truly, madly, loved Joanna and therefore her death hit him very hard and he could never forgive Tyrion, or the TargTyrion theory is true and Tywin knew, or suspected. Either way, I think Tywin has made some very poor 'moral' decisions, but is not evil or psychopathic. Cersei is more complex. Her main issue stems from being a woman in a mans world and feeling inadequate in her place. Add in the unhealthy sibling attachment which bred jealousy due to Jaime's achievements and an abusive and absent husband. Cersei does love her children, again, she has twisted this somewhat so that her actions are justified - but she is evidently not devoid of emotion. We have seen her rise and fall, as any person would, she is not psychopathic. She is quite paranoid - to the extent of a personality disorder? Probably not, Again, a victim of circumstances - she tries to forge a path in a world that requires a certain ruthlessness to rise. We probably see her supposed 'evil' more keenly due to her being a POV character. You think Littlefinger and Varys are more sympathetic and kindly than her? Joffrey will likely develop into a full blown psychopath and sadist. He's what, 14 when he dies? The mixture of having his grandfather, father and mother and the screwed up affection/attention, plus the incest. The reality is that he was not wired correctly. While he was tame compared to Ramsey and Euron in terms of actual actions, that is more likely due to age. I think Joffrey would have kept torture chambers and administered them personally. Ramsey is also a psychopath. No emotional connections, no remorse, causing pain for his own pleasure. He is not insane or mad, he is probably quite in control of his own behaviour, fully aware of the consequences of his actions and just doesn't care. Euron I would say is not psychopathic. Based on what we've seen so far, I'd say he is probably mentally unwell. Schizophrenic perhaps? The drugs, the exposure to magic and perhaps a little bit of abuse when he was younger (remember, abuse breeds abuse, he probably experienced something in his own childhood). I imagine he has full blown hallucinations and delusions of grandeur. This may even be helped along by others who are influencing his mental state. My ultimate point? I'd not write Euron off as a 'dark lord' who is 'evil' and just wants to take over the world. Your dark lord is born evil, acts evil and dies evil - all they do is evil. For starters, Euron would not have been born evil, no one is, that's absurd. There may will be circumstances that cause his brain to be wired differently, but it is not a sure route to evilness. If you take Euron to be genuinely mentally unwell, hallucinating that he is the God of the world, the great Kraken, that the Others whisper to him - whatever. Consider that cutting out people's tongues plays to some kind of master plan in his head. Then perhaps we are watching what would have happened if Aerys had been able to have his way when he wanted to burn everyone. This doesn't preclude Euron from being clever, or aware of what is going on. I'm sure he has got a brilliant plan, but it could just be that the basis for what he is doing and believes could be psychotic induced. Of course, that doesn't necessarily add to the character per se, if his on-screen actions are only portrayed in a 'I kill you all' fashion.