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  1. The story is entirely different if Eddard is alive. Walder Frey isnt needed in that instant. Ned also can use Arya and Sansa as bargaining chips as he pleases. Ned also wouldnt have allowed Theon to be his envoy to Balon. The Iron Islands never invades the North.
  2. dsjj251

    Did the Vale hate the Targaryens ?

    In the Books, Yohn Royce's kin were killed by Aerys. So im guessing there was some hate.
  3. dsjj251

    Was Robert's Rebellion justified ?

    The crimes of Aerys go further than just killing Brandon and Rickard Stark. He killed everyone with Darklyn blood or who had that last name with the exception of Ser Dontos Hollard, as well as those serving those houses directly. He also burned the villages of those 2 Houses(not sure why he didnt burn Duskendale itself). Killed the wet Nurse of Jaehaerys, then killed his mistress and entire family. It is stated that other executions were done between this event and the Rebellion, but not named specifically. Besides Brandon Stark, heir to Winterfell; King Aerys also killed Elbert Arryn, heir to the Eyrie , Kyle Royce, and Jeffory Mallister. So no, Stannis is not responsible for more deaths than Aerys.
  4. The fact that half the country ignores his grandfather if part of why you are wrong. except the line doesnt say "until Laenor and Laena". No, you are wrong. And I have already explained why. this is a circular argument when you have created your own head cannon for reasoning that is never once mentioned in any book.
  5. In universe, the characters themselves who are Velaryon dont call themselves Velaryon, They call themselves Targaryen. There is a clear distinction by the in universe author and the people he is writing about when the children of a female Targaryen/male Velaryon are compared to the children of a Male Velaryon/Female "insert House". Again, thats called moving the goal post. As i Said. I disagree and have stated why. We are both trying to find reason in something none of the books really address directly.
  6. I dont get what you mean. My argument is past present tense starts when the book is written in universe, which is sometime after the Dance probably near 259 AC and that the line is purely poetic. Yours is that it is present tense in the context of each line. We simply disagree. This is again you changing your logic and moving the goal post. I dont believe we are ever told of a single character who had a dragon who was then not expected to become a dragonrider. We have had dragons die or eggs born broken, but never an argument of "im giving so and so a dragon, but they should never ride it. What "could" have happened has nothing to do with actual expectations based on the history within the books. We are both guilty of flipping back and forth between logical lines of reason. so im not innocent either. Not sure how you think Aemma adds anything to this, by your own logic, she was Princess/Queen consort and should have been allowed a dragon right ????? Remember, my argument has always been that there arent that many adult dragons. Yours is they were forbade based on birth order and status, meaning once Aemma married Viserys, she should have been given one as she leap frogged Rhaenys, Laenor,Leana, and technically Daemon.
  7. 1, I already said I dont agree with your premise when it comes to the past present tense of the line in question. So no, i dont need to reread it (since I clearly already differentiated between "claiming" and riding). 2. I already talked about Saera and why she didnt get a dragon, we both agree there. VIserra as well. 3. Your assumptions. Clearly you have every right to argue for your theory, but it just doesnt make sense with Jaehaeys letting atleast 4 grandchildren/great grandchildren claim dragons while he was alive. One who had already been a female dragon rider and married to another House.
  8. Lets say you are right and the quote literally references 101 and before(again, not likely, but what ever). Laenor had already claimed Seasmoke by the time of the great council and Rhaenys was already married to Corlys. So by your own standard, the quote is wrong. I said they were bookish and likely didnt care for dragons, not that they were shy in and of itself. LOL ,you made like 50 assumptions in 2 paragraphs there.
  9. Again hitting the high notes 1. Your quote refers to the Velaryon blood itself, not the offspring or wives with Targaryen blood. This is clear because it is written in past present tense after the Dance. At that point, 6 members of House Velaryon had been dragonriders that we know of. So ether the line isnt true in and of itself OR it is poetic, and children with Targaryen blood are "blood of the dragon" , and wives are not considered part of the family on context. The only other option is it being meant in context of pre Doom. 2. You cant argue "heavily implied" on other subjects, and then pretend Veagon or Maegelle were going to mount a dragon,but The Old King forbade it, because it fits your narrative. While its possible, the opposite is more likely to be true. They were both shy and bookish. 3. Rhaenys claimed Meleys after Alyssa died and then married Corlys, all while Jaehaerys was still alive. Your argument that he didnt want all these people to have dragons(specifically women) doesnt hold up unless no one cared what he thought and did it anyways, LOL
  10. Honestly, there should have been a rebellion after the dragons were dead. Aegon III was a weak ruler at best and the country was already divided.
  11. 1. Again, quote your source here. There is a giant difference between House Velaryon not having dragons/dragonriders and the half Targaryen child of a male Velaryon never having a dragon/being a dragon rider. Laenor and Laena were both allowed to be around and even claim dragons while Jaehaerys was alive. 2. Aegon participated in at least one war involving Volantis, and we are told that men from Westeros fought in multiple wars during the century of blood, not just Argilac himself. My point is that there could have been people who saw tactics to take down dragons, Dorne had to learn it from somewhere right ? 3. Dragons and Jaehaerys children - Yes, there could be more dragons, but there also could not be. By name, we only know of the ones I already mentioned, the unnamed dragons could be the ones later claimed by his brother and sister, grandchildren and nieces and nephews. 4. Age of Dragons, this is a circular argument because if size doesnt determine age, then you cant say which dragon is older just because someone rode it first. 5. Vaegon and Maegelle, again, we are told the nature of these 2. Is it possible they both wanted dragons and were forbidden to get them, sure, but its more likely neither cared about them. Again, the fact that Jaehearys allowed his great grandchildren to be around and even claim dragons makes your theory on those 2 less likely at least when it comes to Vaegon. Jaehaerys trying to make a man out of him in multiple ways would actually make it more likely he was ask to attempt to bond with one and never did. 6. Eggs on Dragonstone. If controlling the dragon's and dragon eggs were that important, then there is no way he would leave them unguarded on Dragonstone for his grandchildren and great grandchildren to claim without his permission. Especially after Elissa Farman.
  12. 1. My point in context of the first paragraph was that we are not told of marriages among any of the Great Houses, or the other Targaryen children not married to each other for the 100 years before conquest. So there is no evidence either way on that one. However, the regions tended to marry within each other. My guess is that there are some Celtigars and Bar Emmons who have Targaryen blood, or may have been half Targaryen and been dragon riders themselves 2. When it comes to involvement with conflicts, I was actually referring to your comment saying that people would have known how to tame/take down a dragon if Targaryens had married away dragon riding women. I was pointing out that Westerosi men participated in the war where Aegon attack Volantis, and would have seen what ever tactics they used as well. 3. I specifically said adult dragons for this reason. The young dragons cant be ridden; And some of the older ones are too sluggish to fly, just as Balerion would be in 93 AC 4. Your Aerea quotes are from 51 AC. Aemon didnt claim Caraxes until 72 A.C. , thats 20 years. Its very possible that the young dragons at Dragonstone are any combination of the dragons claimed by others in the next 30 years. And besides, we know that when the Dance happens, there are only 5 unclaimed dragons that arent hatchlings . 5. Seasmoke and Tessarion are the same size, and Seasmoke is too small to ride when Leanor bonds with him. Rhaenyra names Syrax herself, and Sunfyre is "young" and smaller than the later in 120 AC, so while they could have been born during the reign of King Jaehaerys I, they would have all been born late in his reign and not ridable, possibly after the deaths of the children you believe could have claimed them. 6, Vaegon and Maegelle are both described as bookish, it is more likely than not that they just werent interested in dragons. And since most of Jaehaerys children didnt claim dragons until 15+, you cant even argue that they should have claimed dragons younger. Also, im fine with your Saera argument, but that seems more like Saera being wild than Jaehearys outright barring his children from being dragon riders. Isnt it more likely dragons are treated like cars, and you need to be "ready" and stable to ride one ? Especially since Rhaenys, Viserys, and Laenor claimed a dragon during his reign, and Laenor did not have the title of prince and was the heir to Driftmark. It is possible Deamon claimed Caraxes before the old kings death as well.
  13. Instead of trying to individually quote this, im going to hit some high point. 1. The Targaryens arrived on Dragonstone in 114 BC, Aegons conquest started 112 years later. We literally know nothing about Westeros in that time period other than 3 major events. War between the Iron Islands and the Stormlands for control of the Riverlands, and even that is assumed and could have technically happened before 114 BC, Westerosi participating in the multiple wars between the Daughters of Valyria, And the War/battle between the Reach and Stormlands. Other than that, we know nothing. We are told that there are multiple wars between these factions, so it is possible Aerion/Aegon participate in one and no one from Westeros saw the Dragons, but it is also possible they did. The point overall is that there is no mention what so ever to marriages in the sense you argued. 2. Jaehaerys Children - There were only 2 adult dragons that were riderless when Jaehaerys had living children old enough to ride. One was Dreamfyre, after Rheana died, the other was Balerion. All the other dragons mentioned in the story were either not born yet, wild, or we dont know their birth to confirm them. to add to this, Daella was terrified of dragons, Vaegon and Maegelle both swore them off in favor of religion and academics, Only Saera carried for them, and Fire and Blood never says Aegon forbade her from having one, it says she tried to steal one after he imprisoned her for sleeping with 3 young knights. Gael was young. By the time they would have been 12. Balerion was claimed by Viserys I (93 AC), Leaving Dreamfyre as the only known ridable dragon. Viserra could have claimed either, but we have no actual indication as to if she tried and failed, or was forbidden to do so. 3. Known dragon riding ages. Rheana - 12 Maegor - 25-27 (born in 12 AC, claimed Balerion after death of his father in 37 AC, rode him by 39 AC) Aemon - 17/18(born in 55, mounted Caraxes after Tourny in Duskendale, 72 AC or shortly after) Baelon 16-17 (born 57, Mounted Vhagar after Tourny at Old Oak, 73 AC or shortly after) Alyssa 15+ (born 60, claimed Meleys after marriage to Baelon in 75 AC Rhaenys 13+ (Claimed Meleys after the death of her mother) Leanor 7+( claimed, but did not ride Seasmoke til later on) Laena 12(born 93,rode Vhagar in 105 AC) I could keep going, but I think it is reasonable to say 12/13 is a good age to start from when it comes to dragon riding, and the books say They(Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys) were all dragon riders before marriage 4A. Because of the dragon riding age, I made the same 10 year argument as yourself. None of the books say Sharra offers herself as 3rd wife, nor does King Durrandon his daughter. It is possible, but unlikely for those who follow the faith of the 7. It is far more reasonable for them to believe Aegon unmarried than to offer themselves and their daughters to him as 3rd wives. 4B, Becuase of this and the age of Sharras last born child, that is where im getting the 4 number from. Does it technically matter, no, but it shows she believes both herself and Aegon are free to marry. 5. Aerion being alive may be the reason you dont here about Dragons in the other conflicts. He may have forbid it. 6. You are right about the small number of Dragons and the possibilities behind it, But that could also mean he just died and Rhaenys just because a dragon rider. We are both arguing theories based on little information.
  14. There is no evidence of this, nor the argument that the Targaryens would care in the first place, as long as the person riding the dragon had Targaryen blood, they seemed to be fine with it. You are going to have to quote where this is mentioned We can assume dragon riding age and marriage after puberty, so the earliest would be Rhaenys at 13 marrying a 15 year old Aegon . Again, the marriage proposals also make it seems that Aegons marriages are relatively newer than this. For example, Sharra Arryn has 2 young sons, her husband cant be long dead. And for Ronnel to be small enough to sit on Visenya's lap, i would say he isnt much older than 5 or 6, his brother being a year or 2 younger. Which is how I get the 4 years number being the earliest they could have gotten married.
  15. I dont really see the argument that Targaryens actually cared about blood nobility to that extent. Aegon married one of his sons to a Hightower, Jaehaerys was fine with the possibility of marrying his daughters to Arryns, Blackwoods, Lannisters, Manderlys and more . While none of these matches would have resulted in a dragon being controlled by a different house, it seems to me it was understood that the dragons belonged to House Targaryen regardless. It also seems as though "bonding" is real and only those of Targaryen blood could do that, so its not like a dragon could pass from say the child of an Arryn-Targaryen match to an Arryn-Royce cousin if the first died with no issue. As for Aerion, we have no idea when he died, but we know Aegon wasnt lord when he first mounted his dragons, nor was he when he and Visenya traveled Westeros. Since we know the painted table wasnt commissioned til after that, I would say they didnt get married until 4 years before conquest or later.