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I dont understand why we keep having this argument when Fire and Blood exists. Fire and Blood specifically states that Aegon III is king because he is Rhaenyra's heir, not because he is male.

The conflict could be the assumption that Corlys = Otto. Its simple and actually works.

Again, the color of dresses at a tourney/feast dont dictate not liking each other, its the origins of the name. You are conflating 2 things. All your quotes, and even your explanation include the children being born and used as pawns, the antagonist of the main series is routinely referred to as "Bastard", Ned Stark's bastard," Bastard of Winterfell". You believe her calling them half siblings matter, I believe its literally a throw away line of a private conversation no one could have possible heard in the context of a story where calling someone a half sibling is normal and therefore, meant by the author as a confirmation of their own bias(author being the Maester) You mean letters that no Westerosi maester could have possibly been reading ?????? The character would be sexist, not GRRM. But again, your splitting hairs. weight =/= beauty, was my point. We never disagreed on the line, but rather what it means. My argument is that the character equates weight to beauty , where as you think the line is separate and that she is some simply got ugly as she had children. Even your unreliable narrator of Mushroom mentions weight as the standard for beauty and not looks. No, your argument was Rhaenyra's "infidelity" and how it was caused by Laenor. it wasnt. she would have slept around even if she had 8 kids and all of them looked like Laenor. He could have had sex with her every night and she would have slept around. In short, Laenor's sexuality isnt the problem, Rhaenyra simply wants someone else. The show specifically leads us to believe that her and Harwin had been together since the wedding. No, this is like saying in a society that allows slavery, the abolitionist isnt the better person than the slave own. You can indeed still contrast people in a society that overwhelmingly supports something. So in short, the majority can be deemed bad and it can then be placed on your moral character.

sure it does, homophobia being common doesnt make it ok.

Yes, i would assume all apologies after your child lost an eye , would be fake , and that incident took place 14 years into Alicents marriage No, that is where we are told the names "Blacks" and "Greens" come from. No where in the book are they said to hate each other there. Its clear thats a retroactive title. She never says that, she only says they are to blame. Aegon II however in the very next sentence calls for Rhaenyra's head along with her childrens and Daemon's. You have a right to that opinion. But its just that. an opinion. That wasnt the point there. You claimed Rhaenyra's children dont fight and are perfect. they clearly do. No, he said she gained weight, whether you find a 150 to 200 pound women attractive (based on illustrations of her) is entirely up to the reader. You are simply arguing that it was Rhaenyra who made the call instead of Daemon, got it. The show says they had sex, you can assume ejaculation, there is no reason not to. As I and others have pointed out when this was discussed weeks ago, gay men can achieve orgasms with women, its not that hard(speaking from personal experience)

Thanks for that info. I do find the green dragon better though. And you are correct, the titles of the 2 sides are applied retroactively I think the "discussion" is simply seeing Aegon act horribly You are right about Daella, idk what I was thinking, but we are never told that Lady Jeyne is Lord Rodriks grandchild. We simply assume

to be clear, because there is a weird debate in the fandom on this, gay men have sex with women all the time. Rhaenyra simply didnt get pregnant as a result of the sex.

What exactly do you think having Otto fired, or sleeping with Criston Cole are ????? Again, in the books, we arent told of a single instance of Rhaenerya and her Step mothing having a problem until near the start of the dance. Your assumption is that they simply left out those details, and you have a right to that belief, but that is your opinion, not fact. In the book, she literally says she will forgive her brothers and sisters and blames Otto and Alicent, so yes, she indeed does think of peace. in the book Its Daemon, Lord Celtigar and Rhaenys who mentions using the dragons, and Rhaenyra says no "war at what cost, to what end? My sons would be the ones riding those dragons mind you, and im not strong enough to fly yet... so it will be our 5 against their 4, and one of theirs will be Vhagar. " It is then Daemon who specifically says to find allies before they go to war. I have no idea how you came to this conclusion, there is a whole fist fight in Episode 8 Martin did none of those things. Again , thats you arguing head canon. Vaemond dies the exact same way in the book. She doesnt in the show either, You are completely misusing the word infidelity. i think you mean impotence. As both Rhaenyra and Laenor are guilty of infidelity, and no where in the show does Rhaenyra claim she wouldnt have slept with Harwin if she had been pregnant by Laenor(as we are specifically told they did have sex)

Yea, the book makes it seem like Cole switched sides by his choice, it just never says if that is by him being angry, or simply choosing Alicent

The problem with your argument is that all the same things happen in the book. So again, you are mad at GRRM's writing rather than any liberties the show writers took.

I mean, Dany never had all that much control over Drogon, he did his own thing, and the whole " a dragon is not a slave " thing.

I forgot to mention this 2 weeks ago, but this is the perfect time. When GOT Season 7 leaked almost 3 months before the premiere , we got the actual internal monologue /thoughts of the characters because it was written down(scene leaks were proven true, so I assume the internal stuff is true too). It said Tyrion was in love with Dany and so on and so forth. Well, because we now know the leaks for this season of HOTD were true, and that they filmed out of order and supposedly the inner working of the filming were leaked, do we believe the reddit thread ? That this is the original version of the script and that the rewrite was filmed and footage lost ? I tried to find the thread and cant, but it basically said when Viserys is dying, he thinks he is talking to Aemma about Baelon. And he basically repeats the "I saw our son wearing the conqueror's crown ....dragons roaring" line and that is why he is crowned the way he is. But that this was the second shoot after rewrites and the footage was lost and they couldnt film a 3rd time so they just left it in. That misunderstanding would make sense.

A green dragon makes more sense, does the book even explain why the dragon is golden(is it meant to represent Sunfyre ?) ????? I dont understand why keeping your original oath is seem as the surprising thing Rodrik's sons and Daella( Aemma's mother) are brothers and sister. Aemma would be their children's first cousin. Not aunt. Aemma would only be their aunt if she had a older brother, and as we know Daella died after the one child.

TV show fans =/= book fans. I think most people here are book fans and the above kind of thing just doesnt happen here(from what I have seen)

In Universe Book Knowledge: Rhaenyra should have the support of House Baratheon, House Stark, House Arryn, and of course House Velaryon. House Tully should have also been included in that belief, but Old Man Grover broke his vows. She also had numerous support throughout the Reach as well as the majority of the Crownlands. Rhaenys, we can believe, knew this, so why kill Aegon and be seen as a Kinslayer when your belief is basically that its the entire kingdom against the Hightowers and The Westerlands ???

I feel like the end scene is setting up the city's hate for dragons, and makes a lot of sense in context

DUDE seriously , how are you not understanding the very simplistic concept that people can believe something to be true AND Be wrong about that thing Lets use a real world example. there are people who genuinely believe the world is flat, they are wrong Alicent genuinely believes her father and thinks Rhaenyra could have killed her children, she is wrong. It doesnt "kill the theory", its a reset. She now believes its prophecy/Viserys wish for Aegon to rule. You understand both of those things can and are true at once right ?????? You can fear something and do horrible things to make sure that thing doesnt come true . Seriously man, at this point, im actually hoping you are trolling, because how on earth have you made it this far in life without understanding dichotomy or mutual exclusivity ?

I answered this a while ago and you even responded to it New episode tonight updates this.

GRRM has done entire interviews on unreliable narrators, and we are literally told Mushroom cant possibly know some of these things as he was in another city when events happened or on another island. Cool, quote it. then, something like, I count 8 different users replying to you, not one has agreed when that subject has come up. LMFAO at the bold, idk why you would even post that line here when you are arguing a 3rd person, retrospective of jealousy, but go on. Anyways, its a history book, then entire thing is written in retrospective except for the first person accounts themselves, by 2 maesters who awere born at least 50 years after the dance. I understand your argument. I disagree with it and saying you are wrong. Do you understand that not agreeing with you is not the same as not understanding you ? WHO ????? No, it is just you

You had the nerve to write that after you have been Fan Fic/Head Canon-ing your way through an argument ??????? LOL

You have every right to that opinion. But you are using "ifs" as an excuse to not be pinned down on a subject and change your argument when needed. no. Mushroom is not a source. You can pretend he is all you want, but no one takes that seriously. im rereading the book, I never once get the vibe that its exile, and Never even close to Rhaenyra being bitter or harsh. In the books, the rivalry is between the children directly, not Rhaenyra and Alicent, and all mentioning of the blacks and greens are retroactive to the Dance itself. Even the actual naming traces back to an anniversary tourny, where they clearly had no animosity at each other at the time. Again, neither book or show is actually doing what you claim. There is no defacto immunity since Rhaenyra never threatens them in book or show. NO, its simpler than that, she doesnt want her trueborn daughter to marry a bastard. You are over thinking this. Why do you believe this. Give me the actual line in the show that leads you to believe this . No, its again, you making up some weird head canon making it about power, when in the actual show, the only argument ever made is her believing Rhaenyra will kill her trueborn sons, thats it. jealousy is never once conveyed, we have behind the scenes comments on video from the Executive producer which specifically says, Alicent finally listens to her father, How are you trying to pretend this is about jealousy ?????? Cool, but if thats your argument, it destroys every one of your Rhaenyra arguments since she didnt order any of those early deaths. Besides, Luke isnt the first death and Alicent is clearly fine with all of them. we already went through this.

Yes, a lot of "ifs" Cool, but that has nothing to do with your argument or mine. Again, not once have you shown any of this. Your best argument for Rhaenyra being violent would be of Daemon killing Vaemond. Again, give examples of these flaws you speak of. You have a right to believe its bad writing, but that doesnt change anything. Yes, you wrongly claimed she left for a reason that she did not. As others said, she also didnt lose the nickname because she was now ugly( but even if she had been ugly, that doesnt make her jealous which is your other flaw) No, the terms "Blacks" and "Greens" are both used retroactively. im not saying they didnt hate each other before the war, im saying we never get an example of that in story. We can assume the Aemond eye incident counts , but what else ????? No one is arguing the "Opposite", I simply said the book never shows Rhaenyra being jealous of Alicent, and here again, you claim the book says it does but does not give an example. I dont need a page number or an exact quote, just context to your claim, what situation in Fire and Blood makes you believe this ???? Ok, i didnt clarify this earlier, but I need to now Show motivation : Hubert wants Aegon on the thrown and convinces Otto of the same, Otto then scares Alicent into believing Rhaenyra will kill her children. Book motivation : We dont actually get one, the dialogue we here in the show is pretty much what will be said at the Green Council, but it isnt said in book until that moment. And even then, it reads more as justifications rather than reasoning. The Ageon window scene in show is pretty much the same as what we get in the book right after Viserys dies . Aegon and Aemond in the next episode both refer to Helaena as a his future queen, not wife. And Yes, the death of Luke makes them villains, 100% , because even in that moment, Luke clearly isnt there to kill Aemond, who is already a traitor. This is an example of you saying something exists in the book, but not actually giving an example. I dont need you to quote the exact line word for word, I just need an actual example so we can compare notes , thats it.

You have repeated the same argument and never given a single example from the book. Yes, i did say this I also said this I never argued this at all. idk if you are mixing up who you have argued with. You were right on the first 2, but I never said this . I did say Rhaenyra wasnt jealous of Alicent. LOL, i dont mind you using a term I used, but here you are clearly just trying to use it because I said you were. Never once have i argued head canon. 90% of our debating has been me asking you to give an example from the book to back up your belief , and you just wont. Trying to flip the argument doesnt work when I have actually given examples to back up my claims. The original premise You : There should be nuance to who is good and who is bad My response was that Fire and Blood does indeed paint one side as better than the other, so the nuance you are asking for isnt actually what Martin intended overall, or at least not what he conveyed in the book. Others have replied and said the same, the Blacks are clearly the good guys, even if all their tactics to win werent above board. They didnt start the war. They didnt draw first blood.

Cool, you believe we are talking past one another, so simplify your responses to direct context. Each time I ask you to explain your argument , you say one of 2 things "its clear to me/my opinion"(or some version of that) or "i said if" Assuming you are genuinly trying to make a point and not talking in circles, I ask this. Dont talk in hypotheticals aka "ifs" AND give examples to back up your claims instead of simply saying you believe something to be true. The problem with your argument is that I never said her motivations in the context of the Book/show didnt matter. I said your argument didnt matter. 2 separate things. Alicent's in universe claim is that Rhaenyra would kill her children. However, YOU , the reader cant make that argument as you personally know Rhaenyra's inner thoughts from the book. You know Alicent to be wrong, regardless of if Alicent knows it. Thats what im saying. Im not the only person responding to you in this thread. Multiple people have said they dont see the jealous Rhaenyra that you do, and idk about the others, but I asked for an example and you never gave one. instead of saying "read the book again", simply tell me what you see as her being jealous ? Ugh, again, Alicent doesnt have to be right about Rhaenyra to fear her and genuinely fear for the lives of her kids. Do you genuinely not understand that concept ? Why does how many people like my post matter at all to you ?

My language isnt even colorful. Your are making arguments based on what you want the characters to be rather than what is actually stated on the page. In your own response to me, you said you took one of my statements to your perceived logical conclusion. Thats the end point of your favorite scenario, not a fact. and you are doing it in the context of the story in both book and show as well. She didnt. Never once in book or show did she threaten them, neither book or show even hints that she would, it is entirely speculation on the part of the Green faction that she cant reign without them being dead, and since you support that belief, you then argue that its fact she wants to hurt them. You agreeing with the belief doesnt make the claim itself true. It has nothing to do with protection, because it was never a threat. Again, opinions. I dont see Alicent as lusting for power in either situation. Thats my opinion, but show me the line in book or show that you define as lusting for power and we can discuss it. The only bad trait taken from Rhaenyra was her homophobia towards Laenor, but even that was light in the books, what other trait are you claiming they took away ? And yea, i already said i disagree about your argument from the first couple of episodes, so no reason to rehash that.