Canon Claude

You mistake me. I got all that. But did you really have to drag generalized barbs against a generation of people into this conversation about a fictional series? Do you really have to bring your own political agenda to the fore?

Really?

My question is where the name “Baratheon” came from. Is it a Valyrian name? Essossi? Westerosi?

Ah yes, the Renly Justification, heh.

Presumably he revealed himself to be a faceless man. Who’s going to believe those two if they tell anyone?

So? The wildfire ended up sitting there for decades without being disturbed. What is even your point? [redacted: I remember what you mean about Chelsted, but I don’t think his death was as significant as the stuff I’m talking about] The defeat at the Trident and the sack of King’s Landing were two concrete events, two things which triggered Aerys into ordering the fire to be lit. If one or both those events don’t happen, then that changes everything.

Again, Jaime’s killing of Aerys was a reaction to Aerys ordering the caches to be lit. He only did that AFTER his son and his army were destroyed at the Trident, AFTER he allowed Tywin and the Lannister cavalry into Kingms Lansing, and AFTER Tywin began looting the city. If none of that happens, then Aerys’s actions change, which means that Jaime’s actions also change.

Yes, the only way to end the war is the death of Aerys, but I don’t think he’d have lit the caches if his army won. He wasn’t THAT crazy.

I agree. The chosen one narrative is my least favourite aspect of this series, and I really hope GRRM subverts it somehow. I hate the idea that he’ll try to justify all the awful crap that’s happened because of Rhaegar and Lyanna… what would that even say? “Sorry that generations of people had to die brutally, but it was all worth it because these two royals produced a guy who will save everyone else!”

The irony is that the Baratheon brothers could have easily been unstoppable. Robert’s war prowess and charisma, Stannis’s sense of justice and willingness to promote the right men to the job regardless of social class, Renly’s social skills and adaptavikity, they all have traits which, when properly combined, would produce the greatest ruler that Westeros has ever seen. Plus they would all keep each other’s flaws in check. Stannis could reign in Robert’s hedonism, Renly could remind Stannis not to disappear up his own ass, Robert would prevent Renly’s ambition from going too far. They had all everything in their grasp and instead they let everything fall apart because they never actually loved each other.

A bit late for that, no? He’d have to do a bit more than that to make up for his hedging.

You forget that the majority of the Reach forces were still intact. They won an easy victory at Ashford and spent a year besieging Storm’s End with presumably minimal casualties. The Reach would definitely have enough men to fight Tywin, plus the survivors of the Stormlands and Crownlands. Plus the Ironborn would jump in and raid the Westerlands when armies clashed.

I do wonder where the name Baratheon comes from. Was it ever said?

Except he didn’t raise Domeric. Domeric grew up in Barrowton and the Vale for several years. He was already a young man when he came home and openly defied his father by seeking out his half brother, presumably out of compassion or curiosity. Doesn’t seem like a Roose Jr type to me.

Don’t forget he was willing to sacrifice three of his own relatives, including his wife’s brother, just to send a message to Ellen Tarbeck.

Yohn Royce avenging his son’s murder (assuming that Ser Loras is still alive by that point)

Tywin is absolutely the beneficiary of absurd luck, but at the same time, he does have to be somewhat capable in order to capitalize on that luck. Cersei, for example, is just as lucky as him but she squanders it spectacularly. Hell, Machiavelli himself devoted chapters of “The Prince” to how a prince must make use of good fortune. Say what you will about him being a clever administrator, an average general, maybe a good warrior when he was younger, that’s all up for debate. But if nothing else, Tywin knows how to take advantage of good fortune.

How can we not answer this with hindsight? We’d have to forget what we’ve already read across five books.

This is the proudest defence of conservatism and narrow minded bigotry that I’ve yet seen on this site. And I’m looking forward to Bowen Marsh’s gruesome and well deserved death in the next book. He told Jon to let thousands of people die cruelly, including children. The “Watch” that he’s defending deserves to be obliterated. The times are changing. Jon tried to bring about progress for the good of humanity and Marsh murdered him for it. He gets no sympathy from me.

Forget her allies, or even the fact that she hasn’t lived in Westeros during her life, her bid for the throne will be opposed purely on the fact that she’s a woman.

You’d think Bear Island would have some kind of harbour and fleet to protect itself.

Wasn’t this all a reaction to Stannis winning, though? Wouldn’t Tyrion have altered his plans if he heard that Renly had won?

And Renly would also possibly die in the blast, along with Brienne, Loras, etc. And Cersei would definitely do it, too, be damned the consequences. She’s never cared about other people’s problems beyond a few her own family.

You think Renly would bother with bargaining?

Let’s assume that the shadowbaby failed somehow, so Stannis was left with just five thousand men facing twenty thousand knights and horsemen. Renly’s battle plan is carried out, and Stannis dies with a sword in hand. What then? What do Tywin and Robb and Tyrion and Varys and Balon and Doran and the rest do differently? Would Renly be able to take the throne for himself? Would he be able to keep it?