Corvus corone

On 3/17/2024 at 9:36 PM, Daeron the Daring said:

It seems as tough we can construct a fairly convincing story: The Last Hero is the Night's King, who along with his 12 predecessors/companions were the first of leaders of an alliance and order of men against the Night, which would later develop into the Night's Watch we know today. It was, however, this 13th hero that becomes important, as he reaches the Children of the Forest. Interestingly, we are told the 12 other LC's/heroes give their life for the cause, and yet the Others only follow our ultimate hero, creeping up to him, closer and closer, as per Old Nan. But he does reach the Children of the Forest, who either provide a lethal weapon against the White Walkers or a means to bargain and reconcile with them, which ultimately results in the establishment of The Wall. However, our last hero either gets corrupted by the force he managed to struck by a blow so huge it had to retreat, or he fails to present his end of the bargain as something acceptable to the people of Westeros. The people of Westeros must preserve his legacy, his heroic deeds and (what they perceive) as his failure. But to make it easier to swallow and process for the generations to come, to not ruin the hope the Last Hero gave, they separate these two into a romantic hero and a romantic villain.

I fully agree as I had similar thoughts, but the longer I thing about it, the more I get convinced that the Last Hero/Night's King on the one hand and Azor Ahai/the Bloodstone Emperor are two independent entities and not all one and the same person. While pondering these thoughts and discussing them in the forum, I'm getting more and more convinced that the Long Night was the result of two events that coincided: A darkness that affected Planetos as a whole, and the return of the Others that affected Westeros, but probably not Essos nor Sothoryos. Tales of the Long Night are shared by different cultures across the globe, and they all agree that it was a darkness that lasted for years, if not decades. Old Nan specifically mentions that "in that darkness, the Others came for the first time", which suggests that it was already dark when they entered the scene. As for me, I'm pretty sure that this describes a unique event that is clearly distinct from a "regular" winter, which is never completely dark. What caused that darkness is up for debate, whether it was a supervolcano or a cosmic impact or something else, but I prefer the idea of a cosmic event because the Doom of Valyria, the biggest eruption in recorded history, did not cause a similar darkness, and because of several hints given in the story and the world book linking the Long Night to meteorites and/or something happening to the moon. Fun fact, when Jojen tells Bran about his green dreem of the sea flooding Winterfell, I speculated that this might be a tsunami caused by the impact of the Red Comet because that what happens in one of my favourite German fantasy book series - and that was back in 2010 or 2011.

So, maybe we have to distinguish between two coinciding events that are remembered as the Long Night: A global darkness caused by a vulcanic or impact Winter, and the returnof the Others caused by the Andals. But how might these two events be connected, other than happening at the same time? I have a few ideas which are not fully fleshed out and certainly lack proper evidence. One is that there is no furher link and that they just coincided with Westeros at its centre, the Andals in the north and Pre-Valyrians/GEotD people in the south. In another idea, I'm thinking about the possibility that the Andals and the GEotD might have further links. TWOIAF introduces two odd details: First, it suggests that the Bloodstone Emperor founded the Church of Starry Wisdom, which is a weird detail given that this religion plays such a minor role and was only mentioned once in the main series, probably unnoticed or easily forgotten by most readers. Why mentioning this detail at all? Other people have already suggested a connection between the CoSW and the Faith of the Seven, which I consider at least possible due to the Faith's clear association with the stars (for instance, the Starry Sept in Oldtown as the historical main seat) and that it is based on the Catholic Church. But to be fair, many religions are based on or at least influenced by the stars, so this might just be a coincidence. An intriguing, but purely speculative idea is that Septon Barth found out something about that and that this was the reason why Baelor I ordered Barth's work to be destroyed, but other than this being exactly the kind of things Barth would love writing about, there is, of course, no evidence.
Another odd detail mentioned in the world book is that it suggests out of the blue that the Andals, unlike what is believed by most, might have originated south of the Silver Sea and not in the Axe peninsula of Nortwestern Essos or in Andalos. Both claims might actually be true because that's what actually happened over and over again in our world; no human population has just one origin. I cannot really make sense of this detail, but Crowfood's Daughter suggested that Lengii and hence the Bloodstone Emperor's tiger-woman bride have ties to the Fisher Queens of the Silver Sea and the Tall Men of the same area, unfortunately based on the wrong assumption that the Silver Sea was much bigger. Maybe there is a link between the Andals and the Tall Men, since the original Andals are described as being tall as well? However, the descriptions of hair and skin colour don't match, so I'm careful.

Gosh, luckily this is all just speculations about fiction. I really feel like a conspiracy theorist wearing an aluminum hat, but unlike in real life, there is at least the chance that some higher power (i.e. GRRM) indeed planned all this. Any thoughts, on this, evidence for or against it?

13 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

The GEOTD theory isn't really solid, it's based on assertions and doesn't connect with the story, Alabstur already deconstruct this theory in his video The Fall of The Great Empire of the Dawn while he argues that the Children of the Forest are the ones who taught the Valyrians their arts, a theory which has better arguments, connects very well with the story and is supported by the tv series.
The two theories won't fit together because LML is most likely wrong, there were no dragonriders before the Valyrians, and the Bloodstone Emperor didn't trigger the Long Night.

Alabastur tried to deconstruct the GEotD theory, but I don't agree with many of his conclusions and I always get the feeling that he's deliberately omitting key evidence in favour of the GEotD. For instance, he does not address the Daynes and his theories don't explain the anachronisms surrounding this house. I don't agree with all of LML's theories either and doubt in his approaches, but the idea of pre-Valyrian dragon people who came to Westeros and vanished as a result of the Long Night is actually well-supported and convinces me more than Alabastur's idea that the Children were behind everything and that the Valyrians were the first and only dragon people and only created during the Long Night. And even if the Children were somehow involved, this doesn't disqualify the existence of Pre-Valyrians altogether.

One person who does a good job reconciling LML's and Albastur's ideas is Crowfood's Daughter in her YT channel The Disputed Lands. I had a chat with her and she also argues that the two other theorists' ideas are not necessariliy mutually exclusive. For example, Alabastur argues that the base of the Hightower was built by the Mazemakers, while LML sees it as evidence for the GEotD. In her video about the Mazemakers, she suggests that the Mazemakers were part of the GEotD and provides support for this idea. One key argument is that the Bloodstone Emperor is said to have married a tiger-woman, and as tigers are frequently associated with Leng, this phrase might actually just mean that the GEotD and Leng somehow joined or united, and indeed, TWOAIF lists Leng as part of the GEotD. As Leng has clear parallels to the Mazemakers, as Alabastur argues as well based on the size of the native Lengii and the presence of large undeground "mazes" attributed to the Old Ones, it is conceivable that the base of the Hightower just represents the joined culture and technology of Leng, on whose architecture the mazes are based, and the GEotD, which might have provided the dragon fire, and maybe this united civilisation is now remembered as the GEotD. Conflict resolved, at least for me, especially as it would explain the base of the Hightower, the Valyrian features of some members of House Dayne and possibly House h´Hightower and the anachronistic sword Dawn.
In her Secret Origin of Dragons videos, Crowfood's Daughter also suggests that both dragons and dragon people were created in tandem and that did not happen in Valyria, but in the Further East, as indicated by the repeated mentions of human-lizard hybrids or other people with some, but not all Valyrian features in this part of Essos. She leaves the question who created these people and their dragons unanswered, so Alabastur might actually be right about the Children being somehow involved in this process, but their initial "Song of Fire" might not have been the creation of the Valyrians, but of their ancestors somewhere in the Further East (and not necessarily in Asshai) long before. But after the Long Night, only Valyria remained.
 

13 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

The Five Forts were built against the Others? Well you just mentioned that the Others were made by the Singers in Westeros because the First Men were invading... Westeros. They signed the Pact in... Westeros. The Last Hero in a Westerosi myth who fought the Others in... Westeros.
There are no traces of the Others in Essos so if the legends of the Five Forts are true, if there were demons in Essos, they probably weren't Others.

That's not what I said. TWOIAF suggests that they were built to keep out the demons of the Lion of the Night. But you already pointed out one of the most critical aspects: Unless the Grey Waste and the north of Westeros are somehow connected (which I neither believe nor exclude), the Others are limited to Westeros, but the Long Night was a global phenomenon echoed in multiple myths across the known world, so there's likely to be more to it than just the invasion of the others. Legends of a moon cracking, a stone falling from the sky, the title of the cancelled prequel, Bloodmoon, and GRRM joking about the return of the Red comet all point to this conclusion.
 

13 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

The Long Night is describe as the first long winter, it would be strange for winters to be caused by meteor impacts for 5,000 years without anyone noticing, and if meteors are responsible for long winters, what causes long summers? Greenhouse gases released by the ruins of Valyria?

If the Long Night was just an above-average long and harsh winter, there wouldn't be legends about it. In a normal winter, the sun does not hide its face for years, on which Old Nan and Yi Tish legends agree, but other cultures remember a darkness that lasted for a lifetime as well. I think it's safe to say that the Long Night was a so-far unique event that is not just marked by years of extreme cold, but also by darkness, and that might have been what caused the imbalance of seasons we see in the story. It's more than just a long winter.

1 hour ago, Aebram said:

Where is this material please? Can you give us a link?

It's in a video by ASoIaF Theorist (formerly known as Alabastur) on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDL9exJJ99A
I've asked him to add links to his sources, but he hasn't done it so far. The video is a bit hard to watch for me because he's openly celebrating his "triumph" over LML and mocking him, and that's just not a nice style. In German we have the word Schadenfreude if you're happy about someone else's misfortune, and this video is a great example for that. Still, I cannot deny the logic of Alabastur's reasoning if his points turn out to be right.

After I checked out the Histories & Lore videos included with the GoT bluerays, it seems that the creation of the Others and the Long Night were indeed two separate events:

Quote

Yet after the dawn must come the night. The great evil that the Children unleashed in the war returned centuries later, and only an alliance between the Children and men defeated it.

As a book reader, I do not want to rely on show-only evidence, but it fits with the version presented in TWOIAF. If this version is true, the Hammer of the Waters is probably not the result of a cosmic impact, at least if we assume that there is only one major event like that and that this is the trigger of the Long Night. The Pact would have been formed after the Hammer, and the Long Night would have happened after the Pact and hence after the Hammer. Based on this quote, I would assume that the Long Night was triggered by a cosmic impact that happened after the Pact and saw the return of the the Others, not their initial creation. No cosmic impact involved in the Hammer or any time during the War between the Children and the First Men, only later when the actual Long Night happened.

But then we have Old Nan telling Bran this:

Quote

In that darkness, the Others came for the first time. (...) They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins.

Given that GRRM chose Old Nan to be usually right, this version conflicts with the one in GoT Histories & Lore: The Others appeared first during a darkness that is likely to be the Long Night, although they were supposedly created earlier during the Dawn Age and only unleashed a second time during the Long Night. Are these just inconsistencies between the books and the TV series, or is there more to it?

My head canon currently goes like this:
1. During the Dawn Age, the First Men entered Westeros and waged war against the Children, who in turn created the Others, forcing the First Men to make the Pact with the Children. No cosmic impact involved in the Hammer of the Waters, no debris blotting out the sun, no darkness, no long night. Maybe the Hammer was just the results of rising sea levels after and ice age, similar to what happened to Doggerland or the Black Sea, which is sometimes thought to have inspired the myth of the Great Flood in the Bible and other religious or mythological texts from that region.
2. During the Age of Heroes, the Andals invaded, violated the Pact by killing the Children, and forced them to unleash the Others a second time, which coincided with a cosmic impact that amybe destroyed the second moon and blotted out the sun for years. After all, GRRM has hinted to the return of the Red Comet (I need to find the reference - maybe one of you can help out?), making it possible that the upcoming Long Night might be triggered by a cosmic impact as well and that something similar happened in the past. Pre-Valyrian dragon people referred to as the Great Empire of the Dawn were present during that time and might be the true cause for the Andals to flee to Westeros, rather than the actual Valyrians. The GEotD people might have been either the creators of the dragons or a first attempt of another, older civilisation to create dragons and dragon people. The GEotD might have some connections to the Mazemakers of Lorath and/or the Old Ones of Leng, and the base of the Hightower might indicate that the GEotD and their dragons joined their knowledge and culture with the Mazemakers/Old Ones to build this structure. The cosmic impact and the resulting Long Night ended the GEotD's dominance, and only Valyria as an offshoot remained, also changing and transforming its culture due to the consequences of the Long Night, becoming more and more distinct from their GEotD ancestors.

What do you think?

Hi everyone, after a long time being inactive here I'm back with a topic that causes me some serious headache. There have been similar topics that address this issue, but for all I know, they're all archived, so I'm opening a new one, hoping that I did not miss any other open and related topic.

I'm a firm believer in the existence of pre-Valyrian dragonlords, for which there is a lot of evidence. For those who are not familiar with this theory, here is some key evidence which is usually brought up:
- Legends of dragons and dragonslayers in Westeros during the Age of Heroes, such as the legendary knight Serwy of the Mirror shield or the dragons who supposedly roosted on Battle Isle where the Hightower is located.
- The presence of fused black stone (dragonstone) at places that were never conquered by the Valyrians, such as the base of the Hightower in Oldtown or the Five Forts east of Yi Ti.
- The Daynes and possibly the Hightowers frequently having Valyrian features such as pale hair and dark blue to purple eyes.
- The existence of House Dayne's ancestral sword Dawn that might have been forged in a dragon flames as well.
Frequently, these pre-Valyrian dragon people are identified with the Great Empire of the Dawn from Yi Tish mythology, in particular because its rulers are said to have built the Five Forts, for which they would have needed dragon fire. Some theorists even speculate that the GEotD created the dragons and the ancestors of the Valyrians through blood magic/genetic engineering, and I think there's good evidence for that. The GEotD is said to have falled during the Long Night, and its last ruler, the Bloodstone Emperor, is said to even have caused the Long Night by slaying his own sister and bringing down the wrath of the gods. The descriptions of the Long Night in Yi Tish legends sound very much like an impact winter, and that is even further supported by the mention that the Bloodstone Emperor worshipped "a black stone that had falled from the sky". Some theorists, especially LML who first proposed that theory, believe that this was not just an ordinary meteorite, but the remains of a second moon that Planetos allegedly had according to a legend from Qarth. The legend of Azor Ahai, who is said to have ended the Long Night, also mentions the cracking of a moon, so I believe that this is entirely in the realm of possibilities, especially as it would explain the unpredictable seasons in GRRM's world or the Hammer of the Waters. But as much as I want to believe in this theory, I'm not entirely sure whether that's the way George is going.

However, there is another theory regarding the cause of the Long Night, and it's conflicting with the one mentioned above. This theory states that the Andals triggered the Long Night by killing the Children of the Forest, who in turn created and unleashed the others. To downplay their involvement in the Long Night, the Andals then supposedly rewrote history and blamed the First Men instead. The key evidence goes as follows:
- The Others are said to have hated Iron, but Iron is said to have arrived in Westeros with the Andals, while the First Men only knew bronze.
- Stories from the Dawn Age and the Age of Heroes mention knights, including Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, although knights are associated with the Faith of the Seven, who entered Westeros with the Andals.
- Importantly, GRRM has stated that the Long Night happened around 5000 years ago and might have coincided with the rise of Valyria (https://ew.com/author-interviews/2018/11/19/george-rr-martin-interview/). Recently released material from the cancelled prequel series Bloodmoon that was supposed to take place during the Long Night also indicates that the Andals and the Faith of the Seven were around at that time.
This theory is particularly brought forward by ASOAIF Theorist (formely known as Alabastur) on YouTube, and it has its merits as well, but he and LML present their theories regarding the Long NIght as being incompatible. There is good evidence for both, but how do they fit together? The Andals were suppossedly driven to Westeros by the Valyrians, who would have come after the GEotD, while their supposed ancestors are said to have falled during the Long Night. Moreover, according to Yi Tish legend, the Five Forts were built by the Pearl Emperor, who ruled generations before the Bloodstone Emperor, who is blamed for causing the Long Night. Why building a structure that is supposedly meant to protect the GEotD from demons associated with the Long Night before the Long Night? If the GEotD fell because of the Long Night, it is very unlikely that they had the resources to build the Five Forts after that. And there are more open questions: Was the Long Night caused by a cosmic impact or by the Children unleashing the Others? Were the Others created before the Long NIght during the war between the Children and the First Men and just unleashed a second time during the Long Night, or weren't they created before the Long Night at all? One possibility brought forward over and over again is that there has been more than just one Long Night, particularly because Old Nan tells Bran that the Others came "for the first time" during this event, which makes some people believe that they came at least twice and that there have hance been at least two Long Nights, too. But if this is true, what's the order of events and what happened when? Was the First Long Night the impact winter that brought down the GEotD, broke the Arm of Dorne and forced the Children to create the Others, while the second Long Night was triggered by the Andal Invasion and the genocide of the Children, who unleashed the Others in turn? What makes me doubt in this hypothesis is that Bloodmoon claimed to reveal the true origin of the Others, which would then have happened during the Andal Invasion, and that the nem of the cancelled series evokes associations with the breaking of a moon, so I feel compelled to believe that there was only one Long Night and that coincided with the Andal Invasion and the Fall of the GEotD.

What do you think? I'm happy about any input that helps me ro resolve the problems I have when I'm trying to fir these theories together.

Cheers!

OK, I'm not completely new here. I already signed in last year, but I was super busy with my master thesis and my motivation to contribute to deeper conversations about ASOAIF was rather low. Now I'm done, so I'd like to give it another go!

I'm from Germany and a fan of the books since 2009. I read the first books in German, but since I didn't want to wait for the translation of ADWD, and since the translation was completely changed ("crippled") in the meantime, I'm more used to the English version now. I guess that's the reason why there's no German sister Wiki to AWOIAF - fans of the old and the new translation simply cannot find a compromise. I also used to watched the TV series, but only until S6E02, and stopped after that because I was too frustrated about what they did with many interesting characters. Fortunately, I'm quite spoiler-resistant, so I know about the latest revalations nevertheless.

Apart from Martin, my favourite fantasy authors are R. Scott Bakker, Joe Abercrombie and some German writers you probably don't know, but heavily influenced my preferences and my own style nevertheless (I'm also writing Fantasy stories, but are even less likely to finish one day than GRRM).

Let's see whether I'll manage to keep up with the forum this time!

On 4.6.2017 at 10:20 AM, A True Kaniggit said:

Crap. Has no one really greeted any new board members this year? We've really dropped the ball.

Let's see whether my hello will be recognized!