LordBolton'sLeech

I do like the show (barring a few decisions like the context of Cole killing Joffrey) a lot more than the book version. Because it does feel like a drama in which I can connect with the characters rather than a brief overview with a lot of 'maybe this happened or maybe this other completely different thing happened'. I'm actually sad to not get a show version of the earlier stories. Would have loved to see more about Jahaerys, Alysanne and their kids. 

13 minutes ago, DMC said:

I was clearly talking about the books, not the show.  In the books we have her engaging in sexual activity with at most five men - Daemon, Cole, Harwin, Laenor, and Mushroom according to Mushroom.  Exactly half of Aegon's acknowledged mistresses counting Daena.  In what way is book Rhaenyra's sexual promiscuity in any way comparable to Aegon's self-professes and open behavior?

Look at that wild sex club she's created. More than one man? Watch out KL.

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

Feel free to state them again. 
 

FYI: I mean moral failings, none of which she has shown. She loves her children, is endlessly forgiving, calm, diplomatic, and incapable of anger.

You explicitly said we could not include the first 5 episodes. Which leaves us with 4 episodes she was actually in after. Okay so we also can't include failings as a monarch. 

She was part of a conspiracy to kill a random dude and take Laenor's place so he could run away? Is that not a moral failing? It's possible to interpret her requesting Aemond's thorough questioning of her children's legitimacy as torture. She straight up ignores her half siblings. While it would have been wise and honestly good of her to bond with them. 

I don't know how to break it to you. But a man saying "she's a slutty slut and will make the whole city her brothel" is PROBABLY a sign he's pissed about something personal. 

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

Outside of the first five episodes, where has she shown any potential flaws? From what we know the bastards weren’t her fault, and neither was Vaemond’s death. And faking Laenor’s death didn’t carry any lasting consequences so it was the right move.

A lack of foresight regarding her Velaryon children to the point of needing to gaslight everyone to protect them and herself. An inability to chastise Luke about the eye incident leading him to nonchalantly smirk at Aemond during the feast rather than show true contrition. Not explaining to Rhaenys/Corlys earlier on that she did not have their son killed. Underestimating the antagonism of her enemies and being legitimately shocked by Rhaenys' announcement she'd been usurped. Risking her heirs on a mission despite the possibility their enemies might be around. All of these could be considered failings of a monarch. I don't agree these were all bad ideas but it can be argued at length. 

1 minute ago, butterweedstrover said:

That is not what I came away with from the discussion. I thought it meant that Cole wouldn’t think that an actual reason for why she would be a bad queen to which I responded it made sense even if it was tinged in hypocrisy. 
 

No I very much was saying it wouldn't help any perception of the Greens. That yes Cole -would- say that. It would have lead to a billion more "OMG COLE IS THE WORST" responses. Honestly I wouldn't have minded it but they helped him by not including it. 

For the record, I think Rhaenyra has shown flaws as a potential monarch. (Less so than Aegon imo but still). I just refuse to believe the Greens are acting as a result of it. 

I think they've made Alicent's reasoning a lot more sympathetic. And book Cole was either if I went with either Mushroom or Eustace, a dude who turned on a teenager he was sworn to because she hit on him after being groomed by her uncle and he rejected her or he's a total incel. The show actually made him a lot more sympathetic because of the position Rhaenyra put him in and the conflict he had considering his oaths. Honestly, the show went with the best option regarding his character. I can understand wanting him to have more agency but I think his falling out with Rhaenyra is well done. 

But other than this, I don't think the reasons for opposing Rhaenyra are because the Greens think she'd be a bad queen. It's a smokescreen. 

Also okay so Rhaenyra as far as we know has had sex with four men. Daemon doesn't even seem half as lecherous as Aegon. His vices seem to fall more into violence. What would make anyone think they'd turn KL into a brothel?? Anymore than any other monarch or lord who has had sex with more than one person. It's because Rhaenyra's a woman than any straying from the "virginal, pure path".

It's pretty telling that you would read "she gained some weight in her pregnancy" as "well clearly she was physically unappealing and became super jelly of Alicent." Like wtf? The books didn't mention anything about physical attraction, just weight gain? And Harwin was still into her, I don't think she was lacking in dudes going for her??

I don't think that is at all something we're supposed to take at face value. That she was jealous of Alicent because she was hotter or whatever. Human beings are a lot more complicated than that. Women don't just attack eachother because the other is hotter, there is always something else going on. 

4 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Isn’t it? I mean showing a total lack of regard for sexual norms would make her bad queen.

Ehh, I imagine they thought they could rein him in whereas Daemon and Rhaenyra didn’t have any such influences.

I don't think that was Martin's intent. To suggest that she should have been more cautious with her sex life but it's fine because Aegon can totally be reigned in. I think he intended to show a clear double standard and a hypocrisy with morals.

But also I do not think her regard for sexual norms has any bearing on what kind of queen she would be. Because that's ridiculous. Having a lover because your husband is gay and definitely does not enjoy bedding you is pretty reasonable. She could have been smarter regarding the children but I don't think it effects how good of a queen she'd be. 

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

After watching the whole season... Don't you think that the Velaryon plot would have been far more easier and coherent if Rhaenys and Corlys just... loved the Strong kids like in books?

 

I mean I don't think Corlys treated the Strong kids any worse than his own son? I mean he hasn't shown any overt love for the Strong boys despite defending them as his trueborn grandsons and being kind to them. And Rhaenys did cite their possible deaths as a reason to not sit the conflict out (in case the Greens killed them). But flip side, Corlys did force his son into an unhappy marriage that if he empathised with his kid a little more he should have known does not work -at all-. 

38 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

As for Cole, yeah I concede that was in the book, but it doesn’t change the fact that the book going from him being another screw in the Alicent/Rhaenyra rivalry to him being a loser without agency reinforces their grand plan: 

Blacks good, Greens bad.

I mean if they went with what he said in the Council in the books, it's something along the lines of "that slut Rhaenyra and her husband are going to turn KL into a big old brothel". Which doesn't exactly make the Greens look BETTER since I don't think "she sleeps around too much" is a comprehensive objection to her adequacy as a queen. 

ETA: Especially since the most flattering descriptions of Aegon have him being super lecherous. So there's that hypocrisy that just points to misogyny in the Greens. 

Not for nothing, GRRM on how he feels about Rhae and Alicent's portrayal: 

Quote

Very briefly, however, I think Ryan has handled  the “jumps” very well, and I love love love both the younger Alicent and Rhaenyra and the adult versions, and the actresses who play them. 

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2022/10/11/random-musings/

Which seems high praise. So I don't hold credence to the whole "they are changing the characters toooo much" complaints. He seems fine with it. With praise he didn't really seem to heap onto the latter seasons of GoT. 

I also don't quite understand why the above poster repeatedly ignores Eustace's version of what happened with Cole. The writers could have gone either way.