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Everything posted by theMADdestScientist_

  1. theMADdestScientist_

    They should have taken Rhaegar captive

    Pretty much this. Robert had to kill Rhaegar or be killed by him. There was no way Robert would have been capable of taking Rhaegar as a hostage. Besides, Robert would have never let him live, as Robert wanted the throne that was supposed to be his.
  2. theMADdestScientist_

    How good of a match would Jaime and Lysa have been?

    Fully agreed sir.
  3. theMADdestScientist_

    How good of a match would Jaime and Lysa have been?

    No, but this time not because of Lysa. The problem with Lysa's marriage to Jon Arryn is that Littlefinger was a valeman as well, and Jon Arryn allowed him to get close to him and Lysa. If Lysa marries Jaime, then she has to go to the Westerlands, she most likely will never see Littlefinger ever again. Life at Casterly Rock would de far easier if compared to King's Landing, and Jaime was young while Jon Arryn was older than her own father. The problem here is Jaime though, Jaime would still be highly influenced by Cersei, and Jaime was a puppet before he lost his hand. Cersei might very well want her dead if she feels that Lysa is taking Jaime away from her.
  4. This is actually very plausible, but the Baratheon children were even closer related to Rhaegar, and their father was one of Aerys's closest friends as well. And yet, they never lived at court, but at Storm's End. This makes me think that instead of going to court because he was a distant relative of Rhaegar, Arthur could have come to King's Landing with a family member that simply decided to serve at court in some fashion. As for how they became close, the story pretty much paints Arthur as a man of honor, nobility and integrity. To put it simply, he was a rare kind in that pit of snakes they call King's Landing. That's probably what made Rhaegar like him and want to be his friend, or maybe it was Arthur who liked Rhaegar and wanted to be his friend. They didn't seem to be that different from one another, at least it seems that way. Barristan mentions that Arthur was helping Rhaegar with the tourney at Harrenhal. A tourney that was made to see what could be done about Aerys's mental health.
  5. theMADdestScientist_

    Do you think Cersi can stop the propecy?

    No, this is one thing that will not happen. Supposedly, the Lannisters killed his mother and sister, and were about to kill him too if hadn't been for Varys. Aegon has nothing to do with Quentyn's death, nor will Doran kill the blood of his own sister(if he indeed believes he is the son of Elia).
  6. theMADdestScientist_

    House Targaryen, the First Family of ASOIAF

    And so is everyone else rulling Westeros at this point. She isn't better or worse than anyone there, except maybe for Cersei, she is definitely better than Cersei.
  7. theMADdestScientist_

    In defense of Lady Lysa Arryn

    Have you paid attention at Lysa's behavior when Catelyn goes to the Vale with Tyrion? that's the harm her father did to her by marrying her to Jon Arryn. She cried a lot when she was married off to him, and Catelyn does not blame her for that, Jon Arryn was older than her father. And Hoster seems to regret what he did to her right until the end. Was Jon Arryn innocent though? yes, but he certainly was not a good husband, he couldn't possibly have been, he was too old for her. Lysa's behavior when we first meet her tells us what her life has been. Even as an evil act, she did had reasons to kill Jon, but in the end, she did it for Littlefinger. She just let herself be used, that's where I don't agree with her.
  8. theMADdestScientist_

    How did Ned learn where Lyanna was?

    It's funny that people are still debating this. I guess it makes sense, until George doesn't set something in stone, people will theorise until the end of days. But George has already said how Ned knew where Lyanna was, and why Ashara Dayne killed herself. They are all a part of the legend of Bael the Bard. What happened to Lyanna and Rhaegar and what happened to Ashara and Ned is all there. Rhaegar takes Lyanna, and her brother Brandon(her father in the legend of Bael) goes after Rhaegar. He does not find Bael, just as he does not find Rhaegar after he takes Lyanna. He doesn't get killed in the legend of Bael, while the Mad King kills him after he goes to the Red Keep. Ned, now the Lord of Winterfell(He is Bael in this part of the story, instead of Rhaegar who was Bael in the beginning) marches south to fight in the rebellion, and he wins. No, lover slew brother. This bit is about Ashara Dayne and how Ned, once her lover, killed her brother Arthur. "The gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing", got that? Ashara knew where her brother Arthur was, what she did not knew is what Arthur was truly doing. For Ashara, Elia's lady-in-waiting, what Arthur was doing for Rhaegar was completely wrong. Arthur had aided Rhaegar in "kidnapping" Lyanna, he tarnished his honor while harming the family of her once lover. Ashara told Ned where Lyanna was, and Ned proceeded to kill Arthur. Ned then brought back his sword(his head in the legend) to Ashara. He also brought a baby with him. Ashara then comes to the tragic realization that the man who(likely) impregnated her and left her for another woman(thanks to the war), the man she once loved, killed her brother with her help. Ashara Dayne became a kinslayer. Even worse, she also found out what Arthur was truly doing at the Tower of Joy, he wasn't keeping Ned's sister a hostage, he was protecting her son by Rhaegar from Ned's closest friend and ally: Robert Baratheon. Robert who condoned the butchering of Rhaegar's children and Elia Martell(her liege lord and friend). Ashara then kills herself by jumping from the tallest tower in Starfall after realizing what she had done. Another interesting connection is this one: The song about Bael the Bard normally ends when they find the babe(Jon). The darker ending to it is when Ned goes to Starfall, and Ashara Dayne realizes what she did.
  9. theMADdestScientist_

    In defense of Lady Lysa Arryn

    I'm no feminist, but I kind of don't blame Lysa for killing Jon Arryn either, what I don't agree is the reason why she killed him though. She did it because Littlefinger asked, so it's not something that came from her(despite she having all the reasons to do it), but from someone else. If she had done it by her own choice instead of doing it to please someone else, I would have agreed more with her.
  10. theMADdestScientist_

    Ashara and Ned match

    No, she isn't. Ashara was enough for Ned. Seeing how Rickard did his bussines, you can see that none of his kids wanted the match he made for them. We know how much Lyanna hated the match with Robert, and even if Barbrey Dustin is bitter, I do believe her that Brandon did not want to marry Catelyn. Because it does looks like Brandon to not want to marry Catelyn. Then you have Ned, would his father allow it? I don't think so. According to the ASOIAF APP, Rickard was an ambitious man, and he would not gain much by marrying his second son into house Dayne, who was too far from the North.
  11. theMADdestScientist_

    Could Rhaegar have fought for the other side?

    Robert did not burn his body. As Jorah notes, Robert just walked over his corpse and went to King's Landing. To burn the body of a fallen Targaryen is a tradition, and that was likely done by those who fought beside Rhaegar. Barristan Selmy most likely. Robert doesn't care about traditions, and he cares even less about Rhaegar's corpse.
  12. theMADdestScientist_

    Could Rhaegar have fought for the other side?

    These are two bastards already, it's a lot for a guy who isn't even married yet. And one of these bastards he sired in a brothel on his favorite whore while Lyanna was supposedly "in danger" according to Robert himself. The other thing is that he was a natural alcoholic, and we know what happened to Cersei thanks to his drinking. A woman will only get out winning with Robert Baratheon if she isn't his wife. But for a woman who marries Robert, she needs to be prepared. On long term, Robert will get tired of her(as he got tired of everything once he had a taste of it), and that's when he starts to piss on her dignity, and that's just the beginning as well.
  13. theMADdestScientist_

    Could Rhaegar have fought for the other side?

    Tell me, is a man of fathers bastards the same as a man who only fathered legitimate children with the woman he was told to marry? I don't think so. It surprises me how people think it is the same thing. Rhaegar did his duty for as long as he could, but is seems he cracked in the end. If it turns out that Rhaegar really "left" Elia for Lyanna, I can understand why Lyanna went with him. And for me, that's what happened.
  14. theMADdestScientist_

    Could Rhaegar have fought for the other side?

    Is she really that short-sighted? could she predict a bloody war that would tore the realm apart would happen because she chose her own path? no one would have been capable of predict that, even though they should. Also, at her age she could see things that even older and honorable Ned couldn't. As for the selfish part, her father betrothed her to a whoremonger, and what can she do about it? nothing. She is expected to marry Robert and live in constant shame like Cersei. It is quite an interesting scenario actually, I ask myself what the honorable Starks would do while one of their own is constantly humilliated. Looking at how Ned played down Roberts habits, they are likely to just watch and do nothing, even after the relationship has turned abusive. Rhaegar was in his early twenties. While his is a more serious case, I still don't blame him for not being capable of predicting the things that happened after his "adventure" with Lyanna started. I blame him for his choice of women.
  15. theMADdestScientist_

    Lyanna's condition.

    He didn't went to King's Landing and asked Aerys about Lyanna, Jaime pretty much said that Brandon went to King's Landing and basically demanded the head of the Crown Prince and Aerys's own son before he ever spoke with anyone there. It was quite different.
  16. theMADdestScientist_

    Different betrothals, Different outcomes.

    One of the things i like the most about these series are the betrothals and marriages, they are way too interesting, one of the best parts of any story based on a medieval setting. Recently i was thinking about different betrothals and how they would fare, so i decided to make a post about it and see what people think would have happened between a specific couple. There is no need to say how that would affect the story, the important thing is how the couple would do together, would they try to kill one another? would they love one another? or something in between? The characters i will choose will be those we know well or have sufficient background to know what kind of person they were. There will be characters i will not choose because i believe it would not be fun or interesting to specualte about their possible marriages. There are some characters that are completely sour, like Stannis for example. No matter who Stannis marries, it will be boring. Jaime will take part in, but his story is so interwined with Cersei that is hard to see any of Jaime's brides surviving. Jaime belongs to Cersei unless she changes her mind and puts him aside, she is the one who holds the power in their "relationship" after all. Now, the characters will be those who lived during Aerys's reign, before Robert's Rebellion. There will be no Jon Snow or Robb Stark, no Sansa or Margaery. Let's start? the men will be: Ned Stark: Dutiful, Noble, Honorable and Rigid. Loves his family and his family loves him, but outsiders finds him cold. Despite being dutiful, it took Catelyn Stark(who is also dutiful) quite some time to fall for him. He's not particulary attractive, he is unlikely to make a woman's heart beat faster at first sight. Robert Baratheon: Party animal, loves his drinking and his fighting, and certainly loves to make new friends. He's not particulary dutiful, he is honorable, but not like Ned Stark. One can question his nobility after hitting Cersei in the face and his constant drinking has lead to some rather unpleasant nights for her. In his heyday he was described as very attractive by both men and women alike. Jaime Lannister: Arrogant, that's pretty much the only word needed to describe Jaime Lannister before he lost his hand. He loves his sister(who might be insane), and that's a gigantic problem for any women. Jaime's possible future with another women will always be a big problem for the woman who ends up with him, unless Cersei is kept far away from him. He is described as very attractive by both men and women alike. Oberyn Martell: His mother tried to find a suitable match for him when he was young, but she failed, and he ultimately decided not to marry. In the end he chose to pursue a different "lifestyle". Like Jaime, he is arrogant, but like Ned Stark, he loves his family, and one can say he is honorable too, but not like Ned Stark. He cares for all his children, and has a loyal but rather strange(open?) relationship with his partner Ellaria. He can be considered attractive, he is tall, slender, graceful and fit. Rhaegar Targaryen: For women this has to be the most dangerous human being in Westeros. A backstory character, but we know enough to come to the conclusion that he is pretty much the classic "Prince Charming", albeit a little darker, more isolated and secretive. He is described as being dutiful, noble and honorable, just like Ned Stark. Before he met Lyanna he seems to have been all those things. Is noted for not being a particularly happy man, but this has an ambiguous meaning, and doesn't necessarily mean that he cannot love others. For a man who had an insane father, an overall distant family and a life at the centre of prophecies, one can even understand why he was not a very happy person. He's widely described as very attractive by both men and women alike. Now, the women will be: Catelyn Tully: A strong, proud, honorable and dutiful woman. Her family is the most important thing for her, which can lead her to make harsh decisions at the worst time possible. She is described as a very attractive woman. Lysa Tully: In her youth, she was described as a good, timid and shy girl, far different from the woman who was heavily affected by her marriage to Jon Arryn(who was old enough to be her grandfather) and her years in King's Landing. In her youth she was described as a very attractive girl. Cersei Lannister: A highly ambitious woman, who is not as smart as she thinks. For all i've read of her, it makes me think she will become insane by the end of the series, but again, this is still the little girl who cried like a normal little girl when King Aerys refused her betrothal to Rhaegar Targaryen, so there was some humanity in her before she married Robert and became Queen. She is certainly not a simple character, and certainly one of George's finest creations. She is widely described as very attractive by both men and women alike. Lyanna Stark: A backstory character, but for all we know, she is an older version of Arya Stark. Think about Arya Stark as if Ned had never gone to King's Landing, Arya would grow up eventually and would be interested in boys as well, just like Lyanna. If we take Robert Baratheon's word, she was the goddess of beauty, but a more realistic take coming from Kevan Lannister confirms that she was an attractive young woman, albeit with a wild beauty, something that is confirmed by Maester Yandel in The World of Ice and Fire. We can conclude that while she was attractive, she was no Cersei Lannister. Elia Martell: A good, gentle and kind woman, known for being clever. She is also known for not being very healthy, her health was ever delicate, and all those who met her at least once remembers her as a frail and delicate woman. Some consider her attractive, while others have a complete different opinion. Howland Reed describes her as a fair woman to his daughter Meera. Maester Yandel describes her as having a delicate beauty, something that Lyanna Stark didn't have. Barristan Selmy, who speaks highly of her to Daenerys, doesn't consider Elia an attractive woman. Jon Connington echoes that sentiment, believing that there were women more "worthy" for Rhaegar to marry. Before we start talking about the possible couples, i have to say that Rhaegar and Lyanna or Robert and Lyanna are not allowed, this is not an R+L=J thread, and i certainly don't want it to become one. Now, let's make the possible pairs: Ned Stark+Lysa Tully Ned Stark+Cersei Lannister Ned Stark+Elia Martell Robert Baratheon+Catelyn Tully Robert Baratheon+Lysa Tully Robert Baratheon+Elia Martell Jaime Lannister+Catelyn Tully Jaime Lannister+Lysa Tully Jaime Lannister+Lyanna Stark Jaime Lannister+Elia Martell Oberyn Martell+Catelyn Tully Oberyn Martell+Lysa Tully Oberyn Martell+Cersei Lannister Oberyn Martell+Lyanna Stark Rhaegar Targaryen+Catelyn Tully Rhaegar Targaryen+Lysa Tully Rhaegar Targaryen+Cersei Lannister Rhaegar Targaryen+Elia Martell Those are the pairs you can choose to talk about, so choose one and say whatever you want. Now, you will notice that the very last couple has got together once, but i think Rhaegar and Elia are a very misunderstood couple. More often than not people don't pay attention to the fact that their marriage was quite short. They got married in 280 AC, and by 281 AC Rhaegar and Lyanna met. Throw in the fact that Rhaegar had his father to think about, and Elia with her delicate health, and it starts to look like a couple who had quite a lot to think about. So i propose a reevaluation of their marriage, on a scenario where there isn't a crazy Aerys or a tourney at Harrenhal, and subsequently no Lyanna to distract Rhaegar. That should give more time to Rhaegar and Elia. If Rhaegar was very fond of Elia before, then i see a more positive prospect for them under different circumstances. Also, keep the prophecies out of the equation, we still don't know enough about it, and we certainly don't know what the prophecy truly means for Rhaegar, and this is not the purpose of this post. That's it, choose a couple and say what you think would happen between them.
  17. theMADdestScientist_

    Could Rhaegar have fought for the other side?

    That was an interesting read. I agree with pretty much everything you said, the thing is that people can't really understand how primitive the middle ages were, and how those primitive ways made the mentality of the people back then.
  18. theMADdestScientist_

    Could Rhaegar have fought for the other side?

    Tell that to Ned. He thought she was old and smart enough to be more sensible. The thing is that Lyanna made a choice, something Elia Martell didn't had the chance to do for example.
  19. theMADdestScientist_

    Could Rhaegar have fought for the other side?

    Her brother wanted to kill Rhaegar, do you understand what this means? what was done to Brandon and Rickard Stark was an atrocity. But Brandon wanted Rhaegar dead, got it? even in his utter madness, Rhaegar can't even blame Aerys for killing a man that wanted to kill him. That nonetheless, was enough for Rhaegar to realize his father was insane, and that's why he said what he said to Jaime. Her "other" brother wanted Rhaegar dead as well, and Rhaegar's death means his children's death, you got this as well right? you can't blame Rhaegar for fighting for his family, which wasn't simply composed by him and his father. There was his two kids as well, and his mother and his brother. As for Lyanna, remember, she was afraid, even after Ned was there for her. Which means she was afraid of Ned as well, and that fear only went away after Ned promised her that he would take care of Jon. She knew that if Robert and Ned won and came for her, Jon would be killed, and god knows what would have been done to her if Robert found out about what she did. But she was lucky, Robert didn't come for her, and Ned found it in himself to take care of Jon, something she didn't knew he would do. Hence why she was afraid until the moment Ned promised her. That pretty much tells you she wasn't locked in any tower, she was afraid for her son's life, and that's why she stayed at the tower, because that was the safest place for her. Her family though, it wasn't safe to be around them no longer, because she basically run away from them, she insulted them. Did the rebels spare anyone? no, they started a rebellion and tore the realm apart, killing many people left and right. They won, so their killing goes as something that was necessary, they can write whatever they want in the books. Don't go for the one side was right and one was wrong, war is always bullshit that only serves to make others suffers. See how Barbrey Dustin hates Ned with a passion for taking her husband to war and have the courage to bring back his horse, but not her husband. If you want an honest opinion about the rebellion, just look at what Jaime thinks of both Aerys and Robert. This is insane. The rebellion was started to kill the Targaryens and take them out of the throne(the rebellion is what Robert says it is, not what Ned says). And Rhaegar was a Targaryen.
  20. theMADdestScientist_

    R+L=J v.165

    There would be no "sweet talk" with Cat. The sweet talk would have to be with Hoster Tully, the man whose daughter's honor Brandon did not take into consideration. I think you're not realizing how harsh and medieval things are in Westeros. House Stark was trying to form an alliance with House Tully, and before the alliance even begun, House Stark would be dishonoring House Tully publicly if Brandon had won the tourney and crowned Ashara. If there's one thing people in power care about in Westeros, is the honor and pride of their house and family. That's what is all about.
  21. theMADdestScientist_

    Was Robert doomed to fail from the start?

    There's a quote where Renly describes Robert perfectly: Robert is a medieval men, a true medieval men, almost as medieval as Ned, and that's perhaps why they got along so well despite having different personalities. Robert is no politician, he wasn't fit to rule Storm's End, let alone Westeros. The History and Lore of the show has some interesting takes on Robert. There's one i remember well where Stannis says that if it wasn't for Jon Arryn, Robert would have seen a challenge for the throne barely a year after he took it instead of waiting nine years for the Greyjoys to declare Rebellion. Was Robert doomed from the start? actually, he was doomed from the very beginning, right from the moment he was born as Steffon Baratheon's firstborn son. As a firstborn son, Robert knew he had the right to do stuff that second sons or even his own mother couldn't, he already had the idea that he could do as it pleased him from an early age. He was raised in the vale with the honorable Jon Arryn and young Ned Stark. Robert then decides he wants to marry young Ned's sister, but don't kid yourself, he only wants to take her to bed to see how she is. Since she is the daughter of a Lord Paramount, Robert can't simply take her to bed(not that she would go to bed with him anyway), he has to ask Rickard for her hand. So this is the scenario before the rebellion: Robert is set to "rule" the Stormlands and marry a girl wild as a direwolf, who won't take BS from him who does as he wants and tends to beat everyone who doesn't agree with him or doesn't do as it pleases him, a very medieval man. Robert was already doomed, and if anything, conquering Westeros was the best outcome for him, because he was able to keep his friendship with Ned in this scenario. Had he married Lyanna, i doubt he and Ned would continue to be friends, Ned would have had to end his relationship with either Lyanna or Robert if they had married, and ultimately Ned would choose his sister, and Robert would find himself without the very best part of him: Ned. As doomed as he was, he still got best possile outcome for him.
  22. theMADdestScientist_

    Different betrothals, Different outcomes.

    If he doesn't meet Lyanna, i can see a future for Cersei and Rhaegar(kind of), but it also depends on the distance the Lannisters will keep. If Cersei keeps the Lannister far too close, i don't see a future for them, but again, i don't think she will have that much power with Rhaegar as she had with Robert. She would be only a child by the time she married Rhaegar, while she was already a woman when she married Robert, and Robert wasn't that much older than her, while Rhaegar was. Oberyn's honor is very gray, i don't see him killing children nor condoning such acts, unlike Robert Baratheon for example, so there is that. Honor has it's tiers, and Ned Stark sadly is at the highest tier, Oberyn is on a much much lower tier. LOL
  23. theMADdestScientist_

    Different betrothals, Different outcomes.

    She was just a young girl, a teenager, trying to conquer the boy she liked, nothing out of the ordinary happening there. She knew Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon, so she might as well try to conquer Littlefinger. He cannot have Catelyn, and Catelyn doesn't want him. The only thing here that Lysa did that was not ok was having sex with a boy/man she was not married with. You do know the difference in age between Lysa and Jon Arryn right? it didn't matter that Jon Arryn tried or didn't tried to be a good husband, Lysa had Lyanna's age when she married Jon Arryn, she was 15-16 while he was in his sixties, can you imagine that? there is no way that such a marriage will be happy, quite the contrary. Catelyn knew this very well, that's why she never blamed Lysa for what she became. Hoster Tully, her father, he not only forced her to marry Jon Arryn, but he also forced her to have an abortion, and she didn't want any of that. I feel terribly sorry for Lysa, just like Hoster did in his last days. And in the end, she was also used by Littlefinger. Rhaegar didn't chose her, he married her because Aerys told him to. And i believe Elia was a simple person, i believe she was not interested in politics, nor anything related to it. It seems the only thing she wanted and cared for was her children, the image she passes to me is that of a simple woman who found herself married with a complicated man at a complicated time in his life. Let's not talk about the prophecy ok? the prophecy is already far too complicated of a topic. I gave up trying to figure what was the prophecy all about. I think people give too much credit to prophecies and ignores a lot of other things that happened before any talk of prophecy started,
  24. theMADdestScientist_

    Different betrothals, Different outcomes.

    Me too. Actually, this was one of the matches i liked the most, Rhaegar/Catelyn and Rhaegar/Elia. I liked these matches the most because they looked all too similar, both Catelyn and Elia seems to have been very dutiful women, but somehow, Elia's marriage with Rhaegar didn't work. I believe that a lot happened, things beyond their control, and it happened at the worst time possible. Likely, the same would have happened with Catelyn and Rhaegar But, if we take some things out of the equation, like Aerys and his madness, and Lyanna Stark(this one especially), then i see a more positive picture for Rhaegar and Catelyn and Rhaegar and Elia. I have no doubt that Catelyn would be utmost dutiful to Rhaegar, and if she fell in love with Brandon Stark so quikly because of his appearance, then she would fell in love with Rhaegar as well. If Aerys proves himself to be a problem, just like he did originally, I can see Catelyn not only siding with Rhaegar, but also helping him to deal with his father, especially because she was a healthy woman, she had what it takes for these stressful and dangerous situations. Something i believe Elia couldn't do as she was a very delicate woman with a fragile health.