Jaehaerys Tyrell

Doesn’t a single season seem a little brief for 9 Voyages?

House Manderly’s arrival is as good a point as any, I suppose, but it’d be very strange to have such extraordinary influence. I honestly don’t think House Manderly would have the sway to make the North speak the Common Tongue, nor can I imagine trade being so important. The advanced, interconnected, highly trade-focused free cities have developed different dialects of Valyrian in 400 years but isolated, backwater communities thousands of miles apart are all speaking the same language in Westeros, with less accent variation than an English county?

Part of me is more excited for F&B 2 than Winds at this point, but I don’t know if that’s just cope / hopelessness for the main series being furthered.

I find the development of languages and cultures in Westeros a bit disappointing, especially when it’s done surprisingly well in the Free Cities. It’s very hard to believe the North would speak the same language as Dorne, especially when they weren’t even united until 200 years ago. How did the North even start speaking Andalish, anyway?

I know in the real world some intersex babies are incorrectly assigned male or female due to genital deformities, such as a large clitoris being mistaken for a penis. This is a plausible real-world explanation for Jeyne’s baby being mistaken as having both male and female genitalia. I would also question the truth of these claims. Had Tyrion died in infancy, he no doubt would’ve been remembered as a malformed and twisted baby with a tail. It’s not unreasonable that Tyanna’s poison caused deformities in Maegor’s children, which were exaggerated both for dramatic effect and because of Maegor’s own dark reputation. The description of Rhaenyra “Maegor with Teats” Targaryen’s daughter could even be propaganda to further link her to Maegor. So I do think it’s possible that all these historical babies were just normal, or deformed in a non-magic/non-dragon way. But that said, magic does exist in this world, and I do think at least some of them must have been dragon-like. It fits with the themes of blood magic, hints at the blood of the dragon, and Daenerys and Maegor both have links to sorcery around birthing her child (in Dany’s case) and being conceived (in Maegor’s). I’d maybe be inclined to still believe Rhaenyra’s Visenya to have been propaganda, but if Daemon and Laena’s child was also deformed it may have been an issue with Daemon. There does seem to be something special about him.

Have they cut Stormcloud? I vaguely recall the producers saying they had a certain number of dragons which didn’t quite add up to me, so this may have been something they’d planned for a while. I guess it could actually make more sense for Aegon III’s character never to have had a dragon? A phobia of them is understandable after seeing what Sunfyre did to Rhaenyra, but having had a bond with a dragon himself, who would die saving his life… I feel like Aegon III *hating* dragons is close to plot-hole worthy for the book.

What was this supposed diluted B&C scene?

Is it of any particular relevance that Lady Samantha Tarly’s mother was a Rowan? It stood out to me as unusual in F&B that we get the name and house of Lady Sam’s mother, when we don’t know who Queen Alicent’s mother was, or what houses Queen Sharra Arryn and Lady Sharis Footly were originally from (or whether they were Arryn and Footly by birth). It seems likely that if there were any plot relevance to Lady Sam’s mother it would have come up when her… uncle? Lord Thaddeus was serving as Hand or being tortured by Lord Peake. Am I missing something? Or is this just a detail George had in mind and decided to include?

I think there are a lot of reasons Erik Ironmaker would be proud of having Asha as his wife. She’s King Balon’s only daughter, popular, beautiful, and a Greyjoy is surely a great match for the head of a house which is presumably not among the Iron Islands’ most prominent. If she dies, he can’t boast about who his wife is anymore. He’d probably also be upset he didn’t get to consumate the match and potentially sire Ironmakers with a claim to the Seastone Chair.

I think the fact that Laena and Laenor were in the royal box in episode 1, and that Laena was featured quite prominently in episode 2, made me think that we’d be getting a lot more of Laena and Laenor than I’d initially expected. I mean, we still have 3 consecutive episodes where at least one of Rhaenys’s children has appeared, but clearly my expectations overshot. The idea of 2 seasons of set-up isn’t a strong conviction of mine, just something I’m starting to see the advantages of. I wasn’t quite sure whether there would be room in only 2-3 seasons of the Dance itself to expand on the Starks, depending on where the TV show ends and how many of the Dance’s battles are adapted. I was always surprised by how many people believe the Jacaerys-Sara story in F&B, it always struck me as one of the false rumours. The maesters don’t even seem sure on whether she existed, which I wouldn’t expect from even a bastard sister to the Lord of Winterfell. Having Jacaerys bring Sara back to Dragonstone, much less having them produce Daenaera, would be extraordinary changes to the source material. It’s unnecessary and wouldn’t fit with the pattern of loyalty to the source material we’ve seen thus far. Would Rhaenyra have passed her over to name Joffrey heir? Would none of the Blacks have supported her own claim against Aegons II and III? And from the diversity perspective, Daenaera Velaryon gives future shows the opportunity to depict some non-white Targaryen kings and princesses, which is not something I think they’ll want to miss out on.

In fairness, both forms are used in Fire and Blood. I’m not sure if this is a mistake on GRRM’s part or if it’s used interchangeably in-universe.

Ah, I’m glad to see the discussion hasn’t grown too long. HotD airs at 2am here in the UK and by the time I’ve watched it on Monday there isn’t much else worth saying. I might blame my reception of this episode on RedTeamReview, who opined that it would be people’s favourite episode of the season. I was so perplexed by this take I had to check a couple times to make sure I wasn’t watching the wrong episode. Perhaps on a rewatch I’ll appreciate it more. That said, I found it supremely disappointing, and it made the first two episodes worse in hindsight. They’d built up the Crabfeeder just to watch him stare out of a cave and die off-screen. Corlys’s ominous alliance with Daemon resulted in… nothing of interest. We raced through plot points in the first two episodes and then got an episode where nothing really happened. I’d hoped for some more development of Rhaenyra’s relationship with Criston, and that we’d get to know Laenor better. We saw some interesting development in Rhaenyra’s character in the first two episodes just to see her regress into a bratty teen. Now I’m worried about how the rest of the season will manage to cram everything in. The first two episodes were unusual in that we’d sometimes follow the same character through multiple consecutive scenes. I understood that as a limit on the scope of the narrative, but here they followed the same pattern without purpose. Harwin’s suggestion of Laenor as a consort for Rhaenyra was a perfect opportunity to cut to Laenor. By the time he does show up, I expect many show-only watchers will have forgotten who he is. The preview trailer for the episode suggested that the Battle of the Stepstones would be a significant part. I didn’t expect that I’d already seen 90% of the too-brief battle from various promo videos. Seasmoke’s scenes had already been shown, I believe, in their entirety, through three separate promotional videos. Not to mention Matt Smith’s tiresome arrow-proof plot armour. I’ve generally found the reception of the first two episodes to lean towards the overly negative on this forum, but this was just so disappointing. I’m perplexed, and somewhat envious, at the people who think it was great. Hopefully the show will pick up. I love the story of the Dance, but it’s just falling short for me right now. I’ve sometimes taken comfort in the idea that the show has to make some narrative and pacing sacrifices to get through the pre-Dance years, but at the end of the day there really is no excuse for mediocrity. I’d disagreed with the opinion that the show should’ve taken two seasons to get to the Dance, but I’m beginning to think it could really benefit from taking longer to develop characters and their relationships. Alicent’s changing relationship with Viserys and Rhaenyra has moved too quickly for me so far. Interspersing the development of the Targaryens with some introduction to Cregan Stark, Jeyne Arryn and other players in the Dance would’ve been to the shows credit, I think.

I don’t think it’s uncommon for families to hang around court, and I never got the impression the Stokeworths were particularly egregious in doing so. Do we know for sure they actually lived at court and had done so for much more than the short time frame of the books? In regards to them being allowed to - I think it might be connected to laws of hospitality. Cersei mentions Robert’s Estermont cousins staying at court for half a year after their marriage and him “repaying the visit,” suggesting to me a sort of lighthearted acknowledgement of them taking advantage of polite hospitality. Additionally, the Stokeworths don’t strike me as particularly cheeky guests. Lady Tanda is said to host feasts, both for prospective husbands for Lollys and just for social purposes. I assume she is paying for these feasts and isn’t just at the Red Keep picking through the larders. As mentioned already, nor are they particularly minor locally - the Stokeworth and Rosby lands are vital for the supply of King’s Landing. Another thought I just had - we know some individuals have manses in King’s Landing and it could also be possible, although I can’t recall an example of it happening, for a noble family to lease out rooms in the Red Keep.

Living at court is more exciting and gives you more opportunities for the advancement of your house. The prominence of the Stokeworths at court may be influenced by them being so close if anything, as it doesn't present much issue in continuing to administer their nearby lands. Lady Tanda was also trying to find a husband for Lady Lollys, so was likely also at court especially frequently to find a match for her.

How did Rickard and Brandon Stark's bodies come to be interred in the crypts of Winterfell? I can't imagine Aerys II returning them nor bothering to give them graves.