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  1. lalt

    Poll: Is Lemore Actually Ashara?

    There is another...
  2. That's interesting, if not... disturbing if coupled with what Rhaegar said in the HotU visions: "he is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire"
  3. I agree with that. And I think that Jamie being raised into the kingsgard... at Harrenal was the turning point for Tywin. The real one. And knowing that before that, there were talks about a marriage between Jamie and Lysa Tully... well, maybe, maybe, Tywin was already part of the alliance. Who knows? And how could we: those were talks for adults people: Rickard Stark, Oster Tully, Jon Arryn... and Tywin. They're all dead or about to die when AGOT begins and Tywin is too smart to talk about it. However, beside that, I don't think (but that's me) that Robert knew about it. I believe he never wated to become king as well. I guess that was exactly the reason as to why he was the perfect pawn. The perfect choice for someone else - like Jon Arryn and/or Tywin - who wanted to rule from the shadow and in his place. Robert was the perfect puppet for people more clever than him. And the best way to keep a secret is not telling it to anyone...
  4. I think that as many things in ASOIAF, the symbolism it may work for other characters/plot line as well. So... yes. Nice catch. Same with Robert. And Robert shares many traits with the god Hephaestus a blacksmith and vigorous man with a beard, characterized by an hammer. Just like Robert. I guess @Feather Crystal may know about (or appreciate) these many parallels. Hephaestus, in fact, was also married to Aphrodite. Their marriage had no issue and Aphrodite had an affair with Ares/Mars, the God of War. When Hepaestus, discovered the trurth - to quote wikipedia - he planned "a trap during one of their trysts. While Aphrodite and Ares lay together in bed, Hephaestus ensnared them in an unbreakable chain-link net so small as to be invisible and dragged them to Mount Olympus to shame them in front of the other gods for retribution." So on one hand there's a parallel with Robert/Hephaestus, the beatiful Cersei/Aphrodite (and in both case you have a marriage without children) and Ares-Mars/Jamie (he's a knight). The difference of course is that Robert never found out the truth about his wife. At the same time, however, Raeghar could be Ares-Mars: the planet Mars, is in fact... a red planet that in the ancient times was considered a wondering star and Lyanna - Rhaegar's queen of Love and Beauty - could be the "cheating" Aphrodite, the godness of beauty and love. Finally, Hephaestus is blacksmith because he is also the God of vulcanos. And this part of the myth is far more close to the Valyrian/Targaryen's tradition as described by the serie. So things, details are really mixed up I think. But if I have to say mine about @Feather Crystal 's idea... I'd say that just because things are so mixed up, just because parallels work in so many different ways (as they have to, to not have a mere past and copy) I have another crackpot theory... I believe that Jon Arryn may be the key. That he used Robert and Ned (and not only) as pawns. That he may had planned Lyanna's disappearance knowing how all the players would have react. Knowing - for istance, given what happened at Harrenal - what Brandon could have done and what Aerys II may have done to him, as a consequence. Brandon's death (and that of his father) left Ned at the head of house Stark and he married Cat. So Ned - that was Jon's pupil, not Brandon - became a far more important pawn in Jon's Arryn hands. Same with Robert. Sure, he became king. But given Robert's attitude - something Jon Arry should have been well awere about - the real the power was in Jon Arryn's hands. Truth is, that he benefited more than Robert and House Stark from the rebellion. Same as Twyn. And... who knows, maybe Jon Arryn not only helped Little Finger's career, maybe he was his mentor in a far more interesting way
  5. I’m using your post because it’s a good recap of the idea “ a meteor caused the Long Night” but the question is for you all. I get the point and I also get how it may explain the birth of the Dragons. What I honestly don’t get is how that may be tied to the Others. We are reading of a new winter/long night coming. And this winter/long night brings the Others or maybe it’s the Others that brings the winter/long night. And sure, in the current times Dragons are re-born. However how do the Others fit with the idea meteor-long night- Dragons it’s something I still don’t get. Not even on a symbolic standpoint. For instance, I really like LML take on the symbolism moon+sun=Long night-meteor shower-Dragons. I really do and I guess most of the times his “metaphorical/symbolic” reading of the text is right. But it seems to me that is always about Dragons. So... yes. The question is: how do the Others come into play in this scenario. Is there any detailed theory or part of the theory that I miss?
  6. And then there's the Ned passage quoted earlier, that applies immediately after Lyanna died. I don't think we need to invoke greenseers to explain this sort of thing; it's just human nature. I was re-reading that Sam chapter (ASOS 18) yesterday or so... And I think there is a lot more than what first meet our eyes. If one pays attention there are a lot of passages that somehow parallel ADWD Bran chapters and the prologue as well, that beside the fact that the 3 of them at some point lose not only the sense of time but are uncapable of distiunguish dream/reality. Sam, Bran and Varamyr at some point find themselves half buried in the snow. They wish or fear to die while sleeping. They seek for fire and feel fire on their checks. In doing so, they think about their mothers. All of them at some point, feel the taste the blood in their mouths, they all fall on their knees (Bran while inside Hodor). They cannot walk. Bran for obvious reasons. Varamyr because he's injured, Sam becuase he's too tired and in their chapters that is a main narrative point. In addition, Sam ends up being carried by Small Paul, pretty much like Bran is by Hodor (and he is repeteadly called "pig", whereas Varamyr remebers what Eggon told him: that skinchargers - like him and therefore Bran - south of the Wall are killed like "pigs"). Sam and Varamyr, remember how their own fathers casted them away. In additon: SAM: "He was such a coward. Lord Randyll, his father, had always said so, and he had been right. Sam was his heir, but he had never been worthy, so his father had sent him away to the Wall." But Sam consoles himself thinking that at least he's going to die as man of night's watch. That he is a coward, but at least he had done his duty. Varamyr, instead, remembers how he wished to become King-Beyond-the-Wall but even tho he failed, he consoles himself thinking that at least he became some kind of Lord. And Bran, who wasn't casted away, has this to think: "I was going to be a knight, Bran remembered. I used to run and climb and fight. It seemed a thousand years ago. What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins" Because of that, he consoles himself thinking that at least he may become a greenseerer. Then look at this from ADWD Bran III "A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood." Sam is a reader. In addition in that chapter his role is essentialy that of taking care of ravens, ink, parchment. Varamyr on the other hand has already shown us what happens when a skincharger dies. And then this one "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven... but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin." That is Sam's job vs what Bran is learing. There's another detail in ASOS Sam I that may tie to this: it's when t. Small Paul asks Sam... to sing. And Sam refuses. It's an odd passage. But reading the 2 chapters togheter, one as the parallel of the other, then suddenly it becomes interesting. Overall... I'd say that it is all about the theme of memory, of passing knowlege and how. Magic vs rational thinking. It may be also foreshadowing if not of the end game of how the story will end. In the sense that, in the era that will come after the battle for the Dawan, magic will die and the memory of what happened, the Song of Ice and Fire, will turn out to be a Song written in ink by Samwell Tarly.
  7. lalt

    Who is the 3EC?

    "There's the wolf dreams, those aren't so bad as the others. I run and hunt and kill squirrels. And there's dreams where the crow comes and tells me to fly. Sometimes the tree is in those dreams too, calling my name. That frightens me. But the worst dreams are when I fall." "Bran ate with Summer and his pack, as a wolf. As a raven he flew with the murder, circling the hill at sunset, watching for foes, feeling the icy touch of the air. As Hodor he explored the caves. Or if you wish: as a wolf, as a raven, as someone tied with to the weirwood net. It's Bran. But the hints are scattared...
  8. Like I said I don't have a precise idea/theory. That fact surely caught my attention and I am thinking about it. Whrere it may lead. But I am not sure of anything. And I don't know if dragon bones can be melted to the point of becoming ashes. But if so, then I think it doesn't matter that the dragon bones are black, because the ashes will be grey/white regarless. I mean, this is how it goes if you burn something black or red, blue, whatever... ashes are white/grey. That said... I am more incline to think that the weirwood trees may be the key. Especially because there was not iron, there was not steel during the Long Night - so I don't think dragonsteel is valyrian steel - but there were weirwood trees. And so far we know about 2 things that can become petrified: dragon eggs and weirwood trees. And we are told so many times that weirwood trees are white like bones and red like blood. In short I see a parallel between dragons/weirwoods. In addition.... there is a Coldhands quote that I keep thinking about. "Once the heart has ceased to beat, a man’s blood runs down into his extremities, where it thickens and congeals.” His voice rattled in his throat, as thin and gaunt as he was. “His hands and feet swell up and turn as black as pudding. The rest of him becomes as white as milk" And Sam had this to say about Coldhands "The rider wore no glove. His hand was black and cold, with fingers as hard as stone" So again: blood-black-stone. And the brances of trees are quite often associated to "fingers". And not only bones, but flash as white as milk. (Not to mention the black stone. What is it? Can it be that the one in Westeros is similar but not the same as that in Essos - so they parallel each other but they are not the same thing - and that in Westeros it's made of fused petrified weirwoods, or of fused stony leaf?) But these are all the pieces I see, those I believe that may be tellig. However I cannot put them in order. Sorry if it's a mess... but I don't know, may be someone else can.
  9. Sorry if I am going to move back the debate, but I feel some replies - even if late - are due. And I don't disagree with yours. It's that my current inclinations (nice choice of words, by the way) lay on the idea that the Devil is quite often in the details. Therefore, I suspect that the pattern may be: Lightbringer (a sword, a person, a dragon, something else) = a "sunny" figure, red and flaming like the sun-rising, like that precise phenomenon in physics that precedes dawn itself, like "Ausus" to use the latin definition of that phenomenon and whose etymology = something red and burning; Dawn white as the light of day, like dawn itself (in latin, dawn = alba lux = white light). If so, and more pecisaly if LB is a person, then he/she may use Dawn to fight... or not. Dawn may be a symbol of what must be reached, protected. Of a new era. That because it's the burning red sun that defeats the night and brings/fathers dawn (so much so that its champion is called "The Sword of the Morning" not "the Knight that lead us in the night", etc...). It's a 50%-50% bet to me, That said, I do believe that Ice will be reforged as a single sword regardless all of this, but if by chance I am right, then even more so, I'd say. Yeah, that and the fact iitself that Jon ended up living in Donal's quarters. But there's more than that... AA was a blacksmith and we should keep in mind that Ygritte associated Jon to the "red star" the free folk calls The Thief that in the Seven Kingdoms goes by the name of... The Smith. Add to it that Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna. We may believe or not the official version of that story, but maybe he did that in "free folk" terms.
  10. lalt

    A middle lane view of Rhaegar and Elia

    I agree there are pretty good chances that Elia wouldn’t been schoked or outraged if Rhaegar had a relationship with another woman. But just because their marriage was a political marriage I don’t think is safe to say that the Martells could have been 100% fine with that. Elia had “only” two children (a male infant and a little girl) and no chances to bare any other child That’s a fragile position is the purpose of your political marriage is to put one of your kin on the Iron Throne. Any mistress, paramount, if not second wife could have gave Rhaegar one or more children. And that child or children could have raised a claim vs Elia’s children. People like the Martells know that infants like Aegon may not survive childhood. That Rhaenys as other women before her may have been ururped by a male heir. That a bastard may be legitimized - just like Bittersteel - and rise a claim etc... I still believe that R+L=J but I also think the Martells didn’t know the truth or they were part of some plot or simply forced to stay true to Aerys because Elia, her children and Price Martell were basically hostages.
  11. Ah ok... sure. Sorry I forget something about Dawn (the Sword) and its possible origins... The "white like milk glass" has always got my attention and I believe it may be telling. So I checked... And: milk glass tecnically speaking is the white version of a specific kind of glass - "opal glass" - invented in Venice. The interesting thing (imo) is that the secret to make this kind of glass was to add into the process substances obtained by the "calcination" of bones. And calcination is basically to heat something at such an high temperature to the point of reducing it to ashes. So much so that "milk glass" was also known as "bones glass". I tried to speculate something starting from that... drangon bones bured and turned into ashes, and then what? or... weirwood branches, white as bones - as we know all too well - possibly petrified (if the weirwood tree was dead) and then burned by drangon fire? Fascinating but... I don't know.
  12. Why 3? I am curious... Well... they are legeds, so probably it's better look at the "symbolisms" behind them. In both cases, I guess...
  13. I won't say that I disagree with you. I am in fact open to the chance you may be right. However, I still can't subscribe this idea and I'll try to explain why, what's my reasoning. First: sure, we don't have to take myths and legends literally. But our task is trying to identify what myths/legends/prophecies may have took wrong or changed. And that may be everything: it's up to us to make that choice. But chosing a detail instead of another changes it all. With that been said, the myth of Azor Ahai and the prophecy tell us that Lightbringer should be a red sword. And a feiry one. Dawn is white and surely not fiery. However, yeah, I get your point and these may be the details legends/myths/prophecis took wrong. It may very well be. However there is a reason as to why I personally think that's not the case. In the serie, in fact, 2 colors - white and red - are mentioned quite often. That because - sure - red = fire and white = ice. But I believe there's more than that. I believe it's not by chance that these two colors along the serie are referenced "together" quite often. White and red (them both) are the colors associeted to the weirwood trees, Ghost, Bloodraven. They are the colors of Jaqen's hair when he first met Arya. More importantly these are the colors that in alchemy represent the 2 elements that if merged, generate what later on became the philosopher's stone. Symbolically speaking, the Red king and the White Queen marry and from their union an embryo with a double nature is born. That "embryo" then has to die and to re-born to become the philosopher's stone, the phoenix, etc.. And that's why red and white are used in literature, in the works of those that pay homage or use symbolism so often and "together". In addition - and here comes the most complicated part for me to explain - if we look at the actual phenomenon of "dawn" in physics and if we don't look only to the etymology of the English word "Dawn" then... things are far more interesting. In fact... The color of "dawn" is not red, it's white (just like the sword Dawn). Albus in latin => white. And Alba lux = white lux => Dawn. And as you may understand people like GRR Martin that work with ethymology and symbolisms, know that Albus = White etc... That is why - for istance - in the Henry Potter serie, you have the "white bearded" master Albus Silente. However, like said, white is the color of dawn: because white is light that radiates after the sun has risen, because of the whitening of the sky, after the night (dark) and what appens while the sun is rising... and the sky is red. In physycs the latter and dawn itself are two different moments, phenomena. So much that in my language (that is Italian but I bet that's the same in others laguages I am not familiar with) we still have 2 different words (even tho we tend to use them as synonyms) to define these two different phenomena: "Alba" from "alba lux" (the whitening of the sky) and "Aurora" (Ausus in Latin) for the time lapse between night and dawn/day when the sky gets red (during the sunrise). And "Ausus" in Latin is a word that comes from old Greek (and ancient Sanskrit before it) that is tied to the idea of... burning. Just because it is tied to the idea of that red light that precedes the whitening of the proper "dawn" (Alba) and day-light. And this fits perfectly - imo - with the prophecy of Lightbringer as red fiery sword. So.. if we have the white sword Dawn and the red flaming Lightbringer - whatever it wil turn out to be, an actual sword, a dragon or a person (I actually think Lightbringer is a person: a son/sun) - it's too precise to be coincidence, imo. That is why, I don't think that Ice was Dawn (sorry LML) no the sword of any White Walker. And I tend to believe that Dawn was not the sword of the Last Hero/Azor Ahai as well. I beleive the Deynes were the first "guardinas/protectors" of the Day Light. On the North you have the Nights Watch, guarding vs the Long Night, vs the WW. In the south , the Daynes, "protecting" the Day-light. So much so, the owner of Dawn is not called the Knight of Dawn, or the Sword of Dawn. He's called "the sword of the Morning", and the moring light is... white. In short, I believe that the white sword Dawn is a red-herring. That GRRM is playing with this ambiguity as well. But I guess we shall wait and see.
  14. I believe that Lyanna left willingly and most likely not because she was in love with Raeghar - at least at that time - but to escape from her marriage with Robert or something else. That said, I must admit I believe there's room to speculate if by chance for the same reason as to why she didn't want to marry Robert, she didn't want to marry Rhaeghar. Sure the prince wasn't a womanizer, like Robert, but he was still a married man. But who knows... maybe things changed. Or maybe Lyanna believed that there was a difference between a married man - that wed someone for political reasons, not because he was in love with that woman - and a womanizer like Robert. But truth to be told, what I really find hard to buy is the idea that the Martells may have been fine with Raeghar marring Lyanna. Even without divorcing Elia, in a bigam marriage. That because no matter how open minded the Martells are, and Elia may have been, Elia and Rhaegar marriage was a political one. But this is interpreted quite often in a wrong way I believe. A political marriage surely means that "love" is not what matters and therefore jealosy may not play any part... but still the point of that wedding is political. That from the Martells pov, was to put one of them on the Iron Throne (and it still is). Elia and more importantly one of her children after Rhaegar. Now, if that was what really mattered, Elia's and her children position was not the strongest one. Elia couldn't have more children and the two she had - at that moment in history - were a babe (Aegon) and a woman. But if you married for political reason, you must take into consideration: 1st that a babe like Aegon - in a world like that - may die; 2nd - if so - leaving only one... sister. A woman. And although Rhaenys in the line of succession would have come before any child Rhaegar might have had from Lyanna (or another lover / wife)... that's exactly how civil wars (aka dances of dragons) usually begin. We've seen many female heirs being usurped by men. Not to mention that Aegon may have survived childwood, but we've seen legitimized bastards and children of second wives trying to usurp claims to the throne and/or as heads of houses, anyhow. Because they could. So, why the Martells in that moment in history, not knowing how many children (and how many boys and girls) Rhaegar and Lyanna could have had, would ever allowed them to marry? So to me... the idea that Elia and her family had 0 problems with Rhaegar and Lyanna should be digged a little bit further. Maybe they seem to not "hate" Rhaegar and Lyanna for some reason we don't know...
  15. The point is that handwriting in that world is not proof of authenticity. Sigils are. That is why sometimes, characters do notice handwrinting. Just because the corrispondece between "actual" author (the person who actually writes a letter/document) and "nominal/formal" author (the person in behalf of whom the document is written) is not a given. At all. That's how Middle Ages worked and - as historians would say - we don't have to look at it whit glasses that fit our times and uses. It's another mindset. In fact from book 1, corrispondences handwriting/author are noticed just becuase that is not what people expect each and every time. It's something "special", that people notice, in that world. So when they add things like "and the handwriting is his/hers" (Cat with Robert Baratheon, Jon with Rob, Jon with Stannis in the text but not in the signature) they do that just because it's not a given (therefore a further proof - not the primary proof - or because that handwrinting tells something about the personality of the character sending it, see Asha and Jon with Ramsey's first letters). However, when it comes to the PL we don't know if Jon did recognize the handwrinting or not. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. But if he didn't, that was not something to be suspicious about. But sure, when asked if that letter can be trusted, Jon doesn't replay "Yes, I recognized the handwritring" he says that there's truth on it (things that only Mance could have said to Ramsey, from Jon's pov). And that coupled with the wax is enough for a man like him to trust that letter. Regardless the handwrinting.