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lalt

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  1. In addition, it looks like she was "disonored" at Harrenal... way too long before. Jon, Robb and Mera Reed are all a bit too younger - Dany even more - than an Ashara's child conceived there and then. If that's the case. But any other case (the case of an Ashara’s child conceived later on) is way too much complicated and with no textual evindences. So, possible on cards, but entirely speculative. The only child of approximately the same age as Ashara's one (if conceived at Harrenal)... is Aegon. By the time of the tourney Elia was in the early stage of her pregnancy, or her child was conceived shortly after. And given the relationship between the 2 women, if Ashara's child was really switched with another one... Then I bet on Aegon. Prior or -most likely - after the sack. But beside that, Wylla is surely an interesting case. I believe that the woman that Ned took to WF was not Jon’s mother. If she was, Ned had no reasons to not leave the child with his mother. That would have been the best choice for mother and child for hundred of reasons. He only needed to send some money to them.. so to speak. And I don’t think that woman - later on living at Starfall - was someone of importance. She wasn’t...hiding. But, is there any chance that Lyanna was at Starfall under another name? That’s something worth to be discussed. And yeah... that exchange between Rhaegar Frey and Wylla Manderly is intriguing... but there could be another parallel (and an inverse one) at play. I don’t have a precise idea, but I’ll think about it.
  2. The conspiration starts days prior the PL arrives. Or at least that’s my impression. So to me the letter simply “forced” the conspirators to act in that moment. But they would have done it regardless. That is an issue. Jon’s reaction/decision - once he read the letter - is a totally different one. I personally think he knew all to well that what he was about to do, was... treason. Or at least, something that could have been easily consider as such. So much so he says that he won’t ask his brothers to break their vows. If they would do that following him, then he knows that’s what he’s doing. Which means another thing... that the problem the conspirators really had with him, was the expedition to save the FF. Jon is most likely about to die regardless, in the battlefield vs the Boltons or as a traitor. If they took this risk, if they chose to have blood in their hands instead of staying clean, is because their goal was stop that order. To do that they had to kill him, right there and then.
  3. I'm one of those obsessed with the pink letter. And I feel not shame. I believe in fact that GRRM wrote ADWD (and not only) the way he did, to make of the pink letter the riddle it has become. That clues are there and some information missing so that we can speculate something, something else but nothing disproves/validates once and for all the rest of the theories on the subject. For istance, it's my opinion that the text doesn't tell us if Jon recognizes Ramsey's handwriting reading the pink letter not by chance: had it did that no question mark left. But that's not case and one can always rise the fair argument that in Westeros the handwriting is something that may catch some attention (especially the first time you see it and especially if it’s... unique), but it's not something a man of that world like Jon must recognize to believe the authenticity of a message. A man of that world – like Jon – knows in fact there's not rule when it comes to the actual writer. He knows that people - just like in our Middle Ages - may use a master in their behalf always, never or only sometimes. I’ll try to not bother you with the distant memories of the Paleography course I took in my years at the University, but since we can easely agree that ASOIF is set on a finctional medieval world… little digression. In the Middle Ages, even signatures were not always autographed. Not only: many non illiterate people used to sign by drawing something. If the analogy Westeros/European Middle Ages holds, then I am afraid we even have to admit that the Umbers may or may not be illiterate: to sign by drawing the sigil of their House could be just an habit, their habit, untill stated (by the text in regards to this specific case) otherwise. That is only to say that it’s perfectly consistent with a finctional medieval world, the notion of seals and wax (not handwriting) as the tools specifically meant to prove the authenticity of a messagge. To dissuade attempts of opening/reading that message by someone who's not the recipient, is a most welcome secondary virtue. To close this argument and before going any further, please allow me to share just one good reason Ramsey may have had - according to Jon, not us - to use a master this time around. Jon believes the authenticity of the letter (because what it tells about Mance, the spearwives, etc…). As a consequence he believes it's been written after a 7 days battle. Meaning that Ramsey may have been injured and with not choice but to dictate his words. We don’t have to buy it. But Jon could. However, I'am not going to discuss every single detail used pro or contra a possible author rather than another. I will focus on one of them, that - IMO - underlines perfectly this simple truth: GRRM trolled us all. Thanx to the title, you know it to be the "Ramsey's list". Or - to keep the mistery - the list of people the author of the Pink Letter demands Jon to hand over. That because, even if I am right, it’s not pointless to debate or speculate. It's that better arguments – I guess – can still be found to sustein every main theory (Ramsey, Mance, Stannis, Theon, some of them, etc..). And that list (“Reek” not Theon included) is the key. It's my opinion in fact, that: 1. the list reveals something: the real purpose of the letter. 2. that purpose, the "true" reason as to why it's been written and sent, cannot be but one. 3- that purpose is consistent with all the main theories about the true author we came up with. It's important to notice that the letter's purpose and the author's "motive" are not one and the same. The purpose of the letter, its specific goal, I believe cannot be but one (and I'll try to prove what it is). However, that specific goal, serves every different motive (strategy) every possible true author may have. And that is why the Pink Letter is such a masterfull riddle. Like I said, this is not another theory about the identity of the author and I'm going to avoid most of what has been written about it (and by the way, if you're here, you probably know enough on the subject). At the same time, sorry, but a 3 points (A, B, C) premise is needed as well as an epilogue about how pointless may be (I am not sure, I just think it may be) to discuss its timeline... _____________ PREMISE Back in ASOS [Jamie IX], in an interesting conversation with Brienne momentes after he met fArya, Jamie says he’s pretty sure that girl is just a fake his father is sending North to wed Roose's son. That, according to Jamie, to cement the Boltons claim to Winterfell. In addition - he specifies - with all of Arya's kin believed dead, besides her sister Sansa who's missing and her half-brother Jon Snow on the Wall, no one will be able to dispute that girl's identity. Little has changed since then. Therefore... A-WITH (f)ARYA AND THEON HEADING TOWARD CASTLE BLACK, THE BOLTONS PROBLEMS ARE FAR MORE SERIOUS THAN TO AVENGE AN INSULT. Ramsey's claim (and that of House Bolton) to Winterfell is based on two lies: - The legitimate male heirs of lord Eddard Stark are all dead. - The woman Ramsey married is Arya Stark. If fArya will arrive at Castle Black while Jon is still there, there's no doubt he will recognize Jeyne for who she really is. What will he do next? Is he going to keep the secret for himself or is he going to make aware of the ruse all the Seven Kingdoms? If he does, the Bolton's claim will be jepardized for the years to come. They may even win this time around, but a strong argument against their claim will always be there, ready to be used by their opponents. At the same time, Jon may meet again no one but Theon Greyjoy. The young man who betrayed his family. How many chances are there that Jon won't ask him anything? Something like: "how did you kill my little brothers?" And how many chances are there that Theon won't tell him... the truth? And if so, what will Jon do? Is he going to make all the the Seven Kingdoms know that 2 legitimate male Stark heirs could be still alive? The public knowledge only of this truth will be a constant threat for the Boltons no matter how things are going to go in the immediate future. For instance: how many fake Princes in the Tower had King Henry the VII to face? That is something you should avoid, if you are a Bolton, right? (Not to mention that Theon may also speak about the role that Ramsey played during the sack of Winterfell). An objection may be that Theon won’t confess or that Jon won't ask him anything or believe him, etc... Sure. But since we're trying to discover the pink letter author's (and not only) reasoning, what really matters is not what we think. But what the characters "in universe" (all of them) think or what each one of them can fear/hope could happen. A strategy (a motive) - in fact - has to consider possible scenarios and risks. And in this case, only one thing is for sure: it's not that there are 0 chances that Theon won't confess and that Jon will keep for himself the truth about Bran, Rickon and fArya. And that's a huge, enormous problem/risk, if you are a Bolton. More serious - given the circumstances - than Stannis's army. To recap: if fArya and Theon reach the Wall while Jon is still there, the Boltons can be fuc*** . And those against the Boltons? Do they want Jon to meet fArya and Theon? Well, what's bad for your enemies is good fo you. It's as simple as that. But, when it comes to those against the Boltons another question deserves some attention: what do they need first and foremost to win? In addition… B. THEON IS PRETTY SURE OF WHAT JON WOULD DO TO HIM "Theon shivered. Baratheon or Bolton, it made no matter to him. Stannis had made common cause with Jon Snow at the Wall, and Jon would take his head off in a heartbeat" [ADWD, ch. 46] Like said, characters opinions matter not ours. And Theon's opinion is that there's not chance that Jon won't kill him, if they’ll ever meet again. Confessing the truth about Bran and Rickon, in fact, may not be enough. The boys are still missing, in danger - if not dead meanwhile - because of what he did and – to begin with - Jon may want to avenge the betrayal to Robb and the sack of Winterfell without whom nothing else would have ever happened. Objection: a way out for Theon may be to take the black: a man who swears to the Night's Watch is forgiven for his crimes. But Jon Snow is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and he may not allow Theon to take the black. And if for some reason Jon can't avoid that, he can order Theon's death (or push him off of the Wall) the first time a chance is given. In short: if Theon wants to be sure of surviving, he doesn't want to meet Jon. Fair objection #2: reading ADWD it looks like Theon only wishes to die. Sure. But he can always changes his mind. More importantly, however, that he wishes to die is not only something the rest of the characters may not know, it’s something other characters and possible true authors may not want/need to happen (at all). Many of them in fact have good reasons to keep Theon alive. Those who want the truth about the sack of Winterfell to be known and for instance Asha: we know that she needs Theon's presence in flesh and blood to try to invalidate Euron's election (and Stannis may have an agreement with her as some have suggested). Therefore if someone else wants, needs or has promised to keep Theon safe, he/she doesn't want/need him and Jon to meet. Finally if the letter mentions Reek not Theon, there's a specific reason... no matter who the true author is. But I'll talk about that, specifically. I promise. C- THE NORTH KNOWS EVERYTHING Once again that quote: "Theon shivered. Baratheon or Bolton, it made no matter to him. Stannis had made common cause with Jon Snow at the Wall..." [ADWD ch. 46] According to Theon "Stannis and Jon had made common cause". That is the way he see it, but I guess whoever else (at least in the North) knows what Theon knows and shares a similar if not identical opinion. That is: if not an alliance strictly speaking, a relationship of... trust, a bond (choose whatever word may fit better) has recently merged Stannis and the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, Jon Snow. Last but not least, we know that after Jon's refusal, Stannis plans to wed Val to a Karstark. What we don't know for sure is if Stannis has already made this proposal to the Karstarks. And if so, if the Boltons learnt about it from the Karstarks; and if so if Roose shared the information with the norther lords or with one of them - Lady Dustin just to mention someone - that in turn spread the news among the rest of the northern lords. It could be important, or not. But it's not impossible. With that being said... let's go the point. _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1-I- The list of people the author demands to be hand over, unveils the pink letter's true purpose. Not the author's identity. The history of the Seven Kingdoms, tells us that Jon Arryn rebelled to the Mad King when asked to hand over Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon. Two young men, lords of powerful houses, capable if not to win a war vs the crown, at least to defend themselves. You may argue that he (or someone else) wanted the Rebellion to take place. Still a good excuse was needed. And the good excuse, the casus belli, was that. Not Lyanna's kidnapping. About 20 years later, Jon Snow, named after Jon Arryn, is known across Westeros as the son of the honorable lord Eddard of the honorable House Stark. In addition, he is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch. In additon, he is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Even those who didn't get the chance to know him personally, can easely guess his honor is worthy that of his late father and his house. Truth to be told, from book one we’are repeatedly told that is indeed what people across the seven kingdoms expect from a Stark, legitimate or not. In Jon’s case, he has met so far those expectations: he didn't leave the Wall when his father was executed and his older half-brother left for the war. Nor he did that to avenge the Red Wedding or when Winterfell got sacked and his youngest half-siblings killed. Everybody in Westeros knows that. A few people do also know that he didn't do that recently, after Mel's vision, to go and find his beloved sister Arya. But again that is what a Westerosi would expect a sworn brother of the Night's Watch to do: the sworn brothers have not family. And Jon Snow won't leave the Wall to help/avenge his sister, just like he didn't in the past for his father and half brothers. However, this young man receives a more than threatening letter, whose author looks like a monster and demands him to hand over not only his wife (and as long as Jon knows, his own half-sister) and someone called "Reek", but other people too. "Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard’s heart and eat it." [AWD ch. 69 -JON XIII] These words deserve few considerations: Ramsey is menacing not only Jon but the Night's Watch too. Or to say it better: the author is forcing Jon to choose between jeopardizing the Night's Watch or the lives of the people on that list. What Jon has to do - to not harm not only himself, but his Order - is in fact not as simple as letting these people go. He has to make sure they'll arrive to Ramsey. He cannot allow them to escape. Nor he may pretend they've already done that. If he does, not only him, but the Night's Watch will be held responsible and pay for that. Keep this in mind and let's try - finally - to focus on these people. Who are they? Arya: the only Stark - as far as Jon knows - on the list. Reek: the only man on the list and the only person Jon has no idea who he may be. Coincidence? I don't think so. I'll discuss these two later. First I'll go with the rest of them. 1-II: Why Selyse, Shireen, Melisandre, Val and the son of Mance Rayder/Gilly Much has been said about these people: Selyse, Shireen, Melisandre, Val and the son of Mance Rayder (who's actualy Gilly's son). In particular, since the author demands for them, many have tried to understand why... them. Why does the author want them? Why are they important to him/her? Is it because their true or presumed titles, roles, ties of blood, etc? As if the correct answers to these questions, may validate a specific theory about the author's identity. Nevertheless no theory - IMO - has found a convincing explaination as to why them all sould be important for the author. Them all. Unsurprisingly, I'd say, because they are too different to be "all" important for him/her, whoever he/she may be, let alone for the same reason. Is it possible then, that the answers are somehow unconvincing, because the questions are wrong? I believe in fact, that by changing point of view, it's pretty obvious what all these different people have in common. Or to say better: who. Jon Snow, the person who receives the letter. Not the author. The are all important to him and for one simple reason. Simpler than their true or presumed titles, roles, political value, religious beliefs, ties of blood, etc and the same time - if you believe Ramsey is the author - more satisfing than "because he is a sociopath". Jon doesn't have to like them all (we know for a fact he doesn’t like them all), but Selyse, Shireen, Melisandre, Val and the son of Mance Rayder/Gilly, they are all… women and/or children. Women and children threatened by a monster. Women and children threatened by a monster and somehow under Jon's protection. They are all in fact women and children and his guests at the Wall. I want to make clear one thing: even tho Jon specifically says that Selyse (therefore her daughter and Melisandre) and Wun Wun (therefore Val and the son of Mance Rayder/Gilly) are his guest [Jon to Selyse: "Wun Wun is a guest of the Night’s Watch, as you are" ADWD, ch. 44 - Jon IX] I am not using this word to imply a guest right that may oblige the host (Jon) to defend his guest from "outside" people. The point is far more simple: all these people are women or children, living at the Wall because they trust him or because someone else trusted him. Something that given point C of the premise, everyone in the North - not just those who have spent some time at Castle Black recently - knows. Before going any further, let me remind you what Jon says in the Shillshall speach: "It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows." [ADWD ch 69 – JON XIII] In other words: it's not his duty as Lord Commander nor of the Night's Watch itself... to defend the widow and the daughter of Stannis Baratheon - and all the women and children on that list - from a crature who makes cloaks from their skyns. But it is a matter of personal honor. The disctintion is there. Of course is there. Because he is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and he has to do as much as he can to not jeopardize the order (see above 1-I). At the same time, however, as an honorable man he has not choice but to try to defend those women and children. An honarable man, as the son of the honarable lord Eddard of the honorable House Stark has to be, does not send out women and children to a monster that makes no secret (how convenient) of how much he likes to turn their skyns into cloaks. It's as simple as that. And that is why the author - beside Arya and a certain Reek - demands women and children only. In fact... 1-III: THE LETTER'S TRUE PURPOSE Menacing Arya - the only Stark (as far as Jon knows) on the list - wasn't enough because as a sworn brother Jon has already proved to everybody in Westeros that he knows how/what to choose between family and duty (see 1-I). But by menacing women and children, that are not his kin and yet "bound" to him by... trust, thus... honor (beside/regardless the sacred tie of guest right), the author is forcing Jon to face a dilemma that given the scenario described by the Pink Letter, is graver than that Jon Arryn had to face 20 years ago. More importanly this is the most grave moral dilemma Jon Snow has ever faced. The author, in short, knows, believes or has enough reasons to... hope that Jon Snow, the honorable son of the late and honorable Eddard of the honorable house Stark will feel exactly the way he feels. That it’s a matter "honor” too (not of personal revenge or interest dictated by blood or seek of power) trying to defend women and children under his protection, people that trusted him - to say it at least - as everybody in North knowns (see point C of the premise). The pink letter is not the product of a sociopathic mind. Even if Ramsey wrote it. It’is a desperate but clever move in the darkest hour of the author. Or the finest strategic move made by someone who knows that Jon Snow won't easely leave the Wall. No matter if he/she did get the chance to him personally. It's written the way it is, because that's the most logic choice he/she may take to not be fuck*** or to get exactly what he/she wants from Jon Snow. And what he/she wants, it's not those people. He/She sent an... unacceptable ultimatum to an honorable young man that is also the lord commander of the Night's Watch (“choose between harming the Order and ending the lives of those women and childen”) not by chance. But because all that he/she wants is that Jon won't accept that ultimatum. That he'll do the only 3rd thing he can do, to not jeopardize his order and the lives of those women and children. That is: making of the menaces in that letter a matter of "personal" honor and leaving the Wall immediately, to face Ramsey. That's the purpose of the pink letter, no matter who wrote it. Key words being "leaving” the Wall and "immediately" /see next) too. Mission accomplished, if it wasn't for the unpredictable "for the Watch" twist. The author - if we really think about it - gave Jon the best possible excuse/reason a sworn brother of the Night's Watch, who's also the honorable son of the honorable Eddard of the honorable House Stark could ever get to turn his back to the Wall. There won't ever be a perfect excuse/reason, given Jon's status. It's impossible. But that's surely the most... honorable. Let's check in fact the worst possible scenarios: No matter who wins or dies, the Boltons or someone else - the Crown for example - can consider Jon's actions an interference in the affairs of the realm. But if so, all the Night's Watch has to do is to declare Jon a deserter – if still alive - and no consequences for the Order and those who did not follow him. His speach in the Shillhall is the way out he's consciounsly giving to his subordinates. When he says "I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows" he’s using these words because they can eventually be used against... him, if needed. Therefore, even in the worst cases (for him, personally) the Night's Watch will be safe, something that as Lord Commander he has to care about. But so will be his honor, because to defend women and children from a monster who makes cloaks from their skins (as a “shield that guards the realms of men” should probably do, at least according to someone), was the right thing to do, even tho it costed him his life. That is... an honorable death. Surely a more honorable prospective than protecting the Night's Watch by handing over women and children to a monster and living the rest of his life full of guilt and shame. In fact... that’s his choice. A choice he didn't take - as everybody in Westeros knows - for his father, for his brohters Robb, Bran and Rickon and as some characters - and we the readers - know for Arya too (after Mel's vision). This time he did it... because of those people. Because to keep his honor this time around he didn’t have to choose duty vs a family he swore to put aside. This time on one hand there was an oath on the other hand another kind of pledge an honorable man can not put aside. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 2-I: Not only Jon has to leave the Wall, he has to do it immediatelly (also, why Mance) Like said the letter's purpose is not only to force Jon Snow to leave the Wall, but also to push him to do so as soon as he read the letter. What the author needs, in other words, is that Jon won't waste any time waiting for Arya and Reek before leaving. Nor he has to go first in search of his beloved half sister. A sister he hasn't seen in years (and believed dead). He has to leave as soon as he can, to fight Ramsey. That is why, the author - regardless if that is true or not - informs Jon that Mance is still alive but hold in cage hanging outside the walls of Winterfell, doing nothing but waiting for his death. This is in fact a further invitation to hurry up, to come and save him too. Something that Jon has already done (so there are good chances he'll try again). Mance is alive because of him. He knows it and whoever else wrote the pink letter knows that too, given the letter's text. However, according to the letter, Mance is exposed in a cage outside Winterfell's walls, waiting to die, whereas Arya… 2-II: WHY REEK? Arya is not alone in her trip to the Wall, but with someone else, a man. The only man in the list and as previously said, the only one Jon knows nothing about. Nothing but... that apparently he’s someone who helped his half sister to escape. He has to be a brave good man, in Jon’s eyes, right? Why to think otherwise? In short: just because Jon doesn't know who Reek really is, he has not reason to not trust him. And it's far too easy to say that on the contrary everyone knows that Jon has not reason to trust... Theon. And if you want that Jon won’t waste any time waiting or going in search of his half sister, then it's better to let him know that she is not alone, but with someone trustworthy. In addition... Just because of this, Jon will probably leave without giving any order but to be kind with Arya and this guy/man called Reek, if they'll ever get to Castle Black. Meaning that Theon, won't be captured, put in a cell or interrogated while Jon is elsewhere. Therefore he'll get enough time and chances... to escape. As said in premise point B, everyone in fact may easely foresee that if Jon will ever come back alive he will probably... kill Theon and if the author is not a Bolton he/she may want, need or he/she may have promised to keep Theon safe. If the author is a Bolton, then sure: he has to kill Jon - no matter what Theon may do - because of fArya. But at the same time a Bolton knows or at least he has enough reasons to think that Theon won't say any word, that he won't confess any truth as long as he's not sure that Ramsey is.... dead. That before any news about the outcome of the battle will reach the Wall, fearing what may come next to him, Theon will most likely escape again: that is in fact the only chance he may get to not face Jon or Ramsey, regardless how ther fight will end. That - escaping - is the only chance he could ever get to not die by the hands of one of the two. That if the Boltons don’t know… that Theon has already died (see next). 3- That purpose – Jon leaving the Wall immediatelly – cannot be but one, no matter the author In premise A, I’ve gave enough reasons (at least I hope so) to explain why the Boltons need that Jon will leave the Wall as soon as possible. Is that really enough for them? Not really: because of fArya, they also need Jon to die. He can't survive and meet Jeyne. It's an all-or nothing situation for them. They have to: 1- force Jon to leave the Wall 2- force him to do it immediately 3- that he’ll do that for no reason but to fight them. That’s why you have the dilemma, fArya not alone but with a guy Jon may trust and Mance in cage outside Witerfell waiting to die. The latter is an invitation not only to Jon but to the wildlings: the Boltons need a battle to kill Jon if not on the field, later: as a deserter who interferred in affairs of the Realm. That is how an all-or-nothing situation may be turned into a win-win situation, even tho if Ramsey dies too and especially if the author of the pink letter… is Roose, not his son. But, it's not that different if the author is not a Bolton. He/she may not want to kill Jon, still 1, 2 and 3 are his/her goals. Something that fits his/her strategy. Why? Well, if author is not a Bolton, not only it could make not difference if he/she knows that Arya is a fake, because the point never was to save the right girl, but finding a casus belli. If he/she knows the girl is a fake - and I personally believe that Mance knows it as well as other northen lords – that could be another good reason to deceive Jon and to push him to leave the Wall immediately. The casus belli was needed, so the escape was. But if Jon will meet fArya and Theon, then all he has to do is... to let the world know the truth and the Boltons will be fuck***. He won't need a battle to destroy them. Maybe not forever but sure... not immeditelly. Not only. If the author is not a Bolton, then his/her motive is to gain an army lead by Jon to win the Battle of Ice or to break the Bolton's siege of Winterfell (after that battle). An army that has to come in the most convinient time. To do so, that army has to move, as soon as possible. To make things clear, let’s use GOT season 5 as a comparison (not as evidence). In our case, the author of the Pink Letter is not that different than Sansa writing a letter to Little Finger so that the Vale's army will join the Battle of the Bastards, in the most convinient time. That is the author’s motive if he/she is not a Bolton. The difference is that in our case Jon should be the one coming in the most convenient time and for all the reasons stated above, the author knows, believes, has enough reasons to foresee that Jon won't ever do that if he's not... properly deceived. And if not deceived in time. The only dilemma that can push Jon to leave the Wall was needed, so it was letting him know that his sister is heading towards Castle Black with a man he may trust, while Mance is alone in a cage hanging outside the walls of Winterfell waiting to die. 4-The timeline ca be whatever If the main reason to mention "Reek" is to assure Jon that his sister is not alone and helpless but with someone he may trust, so that he won't waste any time before leaving the Wall to face the Boltons, then it doesn't make any difference if Theon is dead when the pink letter was written and the author knows it. It could make no matter... to him/her, because Reek was just a male name he/she needed in order to better deceive Jon. So, when it comes to timeline, truth is... the pink letter doesn't hold any definitive prove. If all of this makes sense.... then, I am afraid the pink letter could have been written: - After the battle vs Stannis. If so, my bet is the author is most likely Ramsey - or even better given how clever the pink letter is - Roose. But that's just a bet: I only think that if the author is someone else, then he/she wrote the letter to gain Jon's army in time for that Battle, not after or to break Winterfell’s seige. But even in latter case, everything was carefully planned in advance to give Jon enough time to show up at the right moment. However, if Ramsey or Roose, is the author and the letter holds more than some truth (therefore if the Battle vs Stannis happened) I also think that he knows that Theon was at some point with Stannis, if not dead. Again a personal take, but I find more likely - and explicable - that than the idea of Theon's body missing or of Theon escaping the battlefield unoticed. These are the things that always made me doubtful of Ramsey (or a Roose) as author. That because, I find particulary unconvincing a scenario that has to contemplate the Boltons - who desperatly need to know Theon and fArya whereabouts - not torturing and interrogating at least one of the survivors of the battle. And in Stannis camp, eveybody knew that Theon was there. And I cannot buy the missing body, nor an escape unnoticed by everyone. - Prior to the Battle and after the escape from Winterfell Possible no matter who the author is. But I believe this may very well be the case if Ramsey/Roose wrote the letter: as soon as he gets the information from Mance or the spearwives he has not choice but write that letter they way he did (and all the “questions” about Theon – where is he, does he know that Theon was with Stannis, etc.., do not matter). - Before Theon and fArya escape Winterfell. Personally, if the author is not Ramsey/Roose, I believe chances are that's the case indeed, just because the goal of a non Bolton author has to be to push Jon away from the Wall with an army, in time for the battle. And whatever scenario one can imagine for an author that is not Ramsey (or Roose) one has to face the same problems (raven, wax, etc...) no matter if letter’s got written and sent before, meanwhile or after the escape. Like said, I don’t want to sustain here a theory in particularly, but on the contrary that they are all… legit. Surely one may find one of them more convincing than the others, but my only certanty is that our author (GRRM) will put us in the position to say that's it, only... in TWOW. That is why I didn't touch most of the topics discussed in the past years (not only because it’s… impossible). However, before closing, I just want to add/underline a few things not as much discussed as they - IMO – deserve and that may support the chance of a pink letter written before the escape. I honestly don't know if someone else has ever noticed them or one of them. If so, I'm sorry - and I'll give credit to whoever did that (just let me know) - but here they are. - THE RIGHT CLOTHES There's one thing I cannot help but think about. It’s probably not enough to prove anything... but still: how did the spearwives get the right clothes? In ADWD we're told at least two times (one in cp. 41) that fArya doesn't have any maid with her. For this reason, those of Lady Dustin and those of lady Walda Frey/Bolton take care of her. We also know [ADWD cp. 51] that the other servants in Winterfell know who those girls/women are and in fact the day of the escape they notice that the women with Theon are not those who usually deal with the job. I personally believe that the spearwives had to wear "right" clothes. Meaning not only maids clothes, but clothes that made clear that they were lady Walda Frey's or Lady Dustin's maids. Otherwise the missing details would have been too much to not reinforce even further suspicions, jeopardizing the plan. However, when the escape plan starts, two spearwives are with Theon, one follows him the other is sent to call the others 4. When they meet again, the 5 spearwives come wearing maids clothes. But not time is wasted: as if those clothes were already in their possesion. And that's the problem, the detail I cannot help but think about. If so, if they had those "right" clothes (looking like those of Lady Dastin or Lady Walda maids) and not time to steal them that morning, when did they do that? In advance. But that's a really risky move. Especially, because it looks like the mission wasn’t planned for that morning (Theon says something like “why to do it in the morning” as if untill that moment the plan was to try at night). If so, they stole the clothes well before wherever time thay had planned. And the chances the robbery could have been discovered meanwhile fu***ing up the plan, are just too much. To avoid that, there is only one thing I can think about: Lady Dustin or Walda Frey gave willingly the right clothes to them, knowing about the plan. And where was Lady Dustin that morning? - ANOTHER HALF MASTER IN WINTERFELL? In ADWD ch. 17, JON IV, we learn how and more importantly where Hother "Whoresbane" Umber earned his nickname. In Old Town, while studing at the Citadel. It looks like his father wanted him to become a master. I don't know what you think about it, but I personally find highly unlikely that he doesn't know to write. And taking up the topic exposed just at the beginning, I believe this may be the information we need to come to the conclusion that the Umbers or only Hother are/is not illiterate: to sign by drawing the sigil of their House could be just their habit. A tradition. Nothing more. I also think there are more than few chances that he stayed at the Citadel enough time to learn how to use ravens to send letters. Or better: that his father believed that Hother could have become a master, becasue he knew how to send ravens. Sam does it, without being a master. If so and if Mance knew that Mors Umber was outside the walls of Winterfell… then we may have (easely) a full conspiracy - pink letter and Fake Master included - taking shape before Theon and fArya actually escape. Even tho I personally believe that if not Ramsey (or Roose) Mance wrote the letter, and someone else sent it. And just like in Sam’s case, he/she may be everyone with a bit of experience.
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    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    Sure. Like I said I am working on this, but it's taking too long. I think I'll end up posting something quite soon and adding up updates.
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    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    AGOT - The lordling seemed not to hear him. He studied the deepening twilight in that half-bored, half-distracted way he had - The stars began to come out. A half-moon rose. Will was grateful for the light ACOK - "Surely half a kingdom is better than none," Cressen said - how he might win half a kingdom if he goes to the Starks on his knees and sells our daughter to Lysa Arryn?" - Stannis nodded. "The Starks seek to steal half my kingdom,... - the sea had taken that power from him, along with half his wits and all his memory. - Ser Davos's cup was before him, still half-full of sour red. ASOS - "The axe that split your skull. Is it true that half your wits leaked out on the ground and your dogs ate them?" - Half them wives were as old and ugly as Craster, but that didn't matter. The old ones Chett could put to work cooking and cleaning for him, pulling carrots and slopping pigs, while the young ones warmed his bed and bore his children - "—Others." Chett made a sound that was half a laugh and half a sob AFFC - The arrow caught the apple as it began to fall and sliced it clean in two. One half landed on a turret roof, tumbled to a lower roof, bounced, and missed Armen by a foot. " - If I hit him in the mouth with my tankard, I could knock out half his teeth, Pate thought. ADDW - The axe crashed into the middle of the old dog's skull, and inside the hovel the boy let out a scream.
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    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    Well....I’d like to read about it. That because, yes: things split in two halves in every prologue.
  7. lalt

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    Ok, let me explain. In short, I believe that GRRM put some “entries” in every prologue. Slaying or strangling a throat (one way or another) is one of them. Now, from this standpoint, it doesn’t really matter how Chett dies... off pages. Because in that chapter that “entry” is inserted, regardless. But I see your point. And one reasoning doesn’t exclude/debunk the other. The patter about the locations, the deaths, the masters/someone else/ sequence is not denied by this other kind of observations. At all. Same for the “big” mystery all of this may help unveil. In fact, let’s pretende for the sake of the argument, that I am right and that “the great scheme of things” hid is about the Others and/or the Weirwood Trees... I don’t doubt that wathever happened to Lyanna for real, is another version, a most recent one of the same scheme. At the very least... partially. That’s why these (them all) are the biggest mysteries of the serie. Because one speaks about the other. Finaly, I must admit that at the moment I am putting aside on purpose what’s left off pages, just to see how that idea of the “entries” goes. But I highly suspect that if I have to consider what’s left off pages (but known) or what we know will come next, then it works even better. Chett for instance, as a white, will get a pair of blue eyes. We know that, because of his meeting later on with Sam. And... interesting enough AFFC prologue is the only one among 5 without an entry about blue eye/eyes. But... taking into account what we know will happen next, then we have it.
  8. lalt

    Poll: Is Lemore Actually Ashara?

    My bet on Ashara = Lemor.
  9. lalt

    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    I remember that... and If there's a pattern - and I believe there is one - we can surely bet or try to predict what's going to happen in the next prologue. But I am more inclined to think that these details are there - mainly - to foreshadow/unveil something else. Take for istance ASOS's prologue: no one dies. Not in that chapter. Chett, Mormont etc... will die later on. But still - in that prologue - you have Chett speaking/thinking of slying Sam's throat. More importantly you have at least one throat cut or strangled (as something actually happening, as a memory, a plan, one way or another) in each one of the 5 prologues. But that is only one of the connections between the 5 prologues. There are many more. So I am starting to believe that all these connections/dots are the pieces of a puzzle that foreshadows something particularly important. And I beleive, that is something tied to the endgame. My main guess is that it has to do with the Weirwood Trees and/or the creation of the Others (to what they what, who they are/were, etc...) And if not to them, to something equally important in the great scheme of things. I also believe, that AGOT BRAN I and all the BRAN povs of ADWD are tied to this puzzle. For istance... Beside this one (about a dead frozen mother, with a cut throat): "There's something in the throat," Robb told him, proud to have found the answer before his father even asked. "There, just under the jaw." .AGOT BRAN I “Born with the dead,” another man put in. “Worse luck.” “No matter,” said Hullen. “They be dead soon enough too.” Bran gave a wordless cry of dismay. “The sooner the better,” Theon Greyjoy agreed. He drew his sword. “Give the beast here, Bran.” The little thing squirmed against him, as if it heard and understood. “No!” Bran cried out fiercely. “It’s mine.” Compare it to the following: ADWD PROLOGUE - (Varamyr trying to save the dogs) "No, Father, please", he tried to say, but dogs cannot speak the tongues of men, so all that emerged was a piteous whine. ADWD BRAN III "No," said Bran, "no, don't," but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. And..."Mercy" is another piece of this puzzle: AGOT- BRAN I "You cannot do that, boy," said Harwin, who was Hullen's son. "It be a mercy to kill them," Hullen said. Bran looked to his lord father for rescue, but got only a frown, a furrowed brow. "Hullen speaks truly, son. Better a swift death than a hard one from cold and starvation." ACOK - Cressen had "mercy" for Patchface... (or not?) "The wretch is mad, and in pain, and no use to anyone, least of all himself," declared old Ser Harbert, the castellan of Storm's End in those years. "The kindest thing you could do for that one is fill his cup with the milk of the poppy. A painless sleep, and there's an end to it. He'd bless you if he had the wit for it." But Cressen had refused, and in the end he had won. Whether Patchface had gotten any joy of that victory he could not say, not even today, so many years later. ASOS - Small Paul and Mormont's raven "The Old Bear's raven," Small Paul said. "If we kill him, who's going to feed his bird?" [same poit made by Hullen, more or less, about the direwolves pupps] "Who bloody well cares? Kill the bird too if you like." "I don't want to hurt no bird," the big man said. "But that's a talking bird. What if it tells what we did?" (...) "Paul," said Chett, before the big man got too angry, "when they find the old man lying in a pool of blood with his throat slit, they won't need no bird to tell them someone killed him." Small Paul chewed on that a moment. "That's true," he allowed. "Can I keep the bird, then? I like that bird." ADWD - PROLOGUE That was as a wolf, though. He had never eaten the meat of men with human teeth. He would not grudge his pack their feast, however. The wolves were as famished as he was, gaunt and cold and hungry, and the prey … two men and a woman, a babe in arms, fleeing from defeat to death. They would have perished soon in any case, from exposure or starvation. This way was better, quicker. A mercy. I haven't found anything 100% explicit in AFFC prologue. But let's look at this one... I ought to kill you, Pate thought, but he was not near drunk enough to throw away his life. Leo had been trained to arms, and was known to be deadly with bravo's blade and dagger. So, Leo is deadly in a duel. People know it, he has to know it too. However, later on: Pate: "Leave Rosey be," he said, by way of parting. "Just leave her be, or I may kill you." Leo Tyrell flicked the hair back from his eye. "I do not fight duels with pig boys. Go away." Now, if Leo knows how good he is in... slaying people, there's a chance that here, he's having "mercy" of poor Pate. But however... these are the kind of things I am working on...
  10. My guess is that Euron knows about the prophecy and that he believes to be Azor Ahai too. That's my interpretation of the Aeron's sample chapters from TWOW, indeed. In addition, the Asshai books and prophecies don't speak about a Targ. prince/princess. We don't even know if Azor Ahai is called the PTWP in those prophecies. What we do know is that the Targaryens believe that a PTWS has to come from their bloodline. And that Melisandre believes that the 2 proprephies are about the same hero. But someone else, that knows about the Azor Ahai's prophecy, can absolutely think that's not the case. That they are 2 separate things, that one prophecy has to be believed the other not. Or he/she may not know about the PTWP... Not to mention that if the first lie is about Stannis and he has only a little bit of Targ blood, it's not a given that young Griff is a Targ or Blackfire. It may be. I actually think that there are good chances... but.. who knows. However, that Euron believes to be Azor Ahai is important for Dany. Just because, imo, the PTWP and Azor Ahai will turn out to be the same hero/person and therefore a Targaryen too.
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    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    Well to anticipate something... AGOT PROLOGUE Will opened his mouth to call down a warning, and the words seemed to freeze in his throat. Will closed his eyes to pray. Long, elegant hands brushed his cheek, then tightened around his throat. They were gloved in the finest moleskin and sticky with blood, yet the touch was icy cold. With these two quotes in minds, let's look at the others prologues: ACOK PROLOGUE - Cressen's fingers went to the chain about his neck, each link forged from a different metal, each symbolizing his mastery of another branch of learning; the maester's collar, mark of his order. In the pride of his youth, he had worn it easily, but now it seemed heavy to him, the metal cold against his skin - Around her throat was a red gold choker tighter than any maester's chain... -In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. - Cressen tried to reply, but his words caught in his throat. His cough became a terrible thin whistle as he strained to suck in air. Iron fingers tightened round his neck. ASOS PROLOGUE - Mormont cleared his throat and spat. The spittle was frozen before it hit the ground. - "Paul," said Chett, before the big man got too angry, "when they find the old man lying in a pool of blood with his throat slit, they won't need no bird to tell them someone killed him." [-> throats cut, instead of strangled] AFFC PROLOGUE - "Will I?" said Leo. "How can I, with my throat so dry . . ." [dry = opposite to frozen] - He brought it to his mouth and bit down on it the way he’d seen men do. If truth be told, he wasn’t sure what gold should taste like, but he did not want to look a fool (...) “What’s happening?” he said. His legs had turned to water. “I don’t understand.” “And never will,” a voice said sadly. The cobblestones rushed up to kiss him. Pate tried to cry for help, but his voice was failing too [-> at least, symbolically strangled] ADWD PROLOGUE - His eyes were red, his lips cracked, his throat dry and parched - His throat was raw, but it felt good to hear a human voice, even his own. [dry and raw= opposite to frozen] - His one-eyed brother knocked the tooth-thrower back into a snowdrift and tore his throat out as he struggled. - Varamyr had died nine times before. He had died once from a spear thrust, once with a bear's teeth in his throat, and once in a wash of blood as he brought forth a stillborn cub. - He had gorged on human flesh and lapped the blood of dying men as it gushed red and hot from their torn throats. [->cutting throats] I don't think it's coincidence. The question is, what is this all really about?
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    Heresy 219 and a whisper of Winter

    In my opinion, that is only because Blue is - in general - a color associated to death too. Especially in alchemical symbolism, which is heavily used by GRRM in this serie. That said, I believe that the "literal meaning" of that sentence is that the petals were blue. However, it's deliberately ambiguous... to hint something else. That is - in fact - the idea of... a dead mother. I am sure, that a "dead mother" is something important. And that quote from AGOT Bran I about the dead she-direwolves giving birth is there because of that too. Keep in mind that there is also this one from Varamyr's pov in ADWD Varamyr had died nine times before. He had died once from a spear thrust, once with a bear's teeth in his throat, and once in a wash of blood as he brought forth a stillborn cub. But I beleive that these kind of details, don't help explaining the events suorronding Robert's rebellion, Lyanna, the ToJ etc iteself. I believe that they (so what we know about Lyanna, the ToJ, etc.... too) are hints about the creation of the Others. I am currently working on something about all the prologues (how they are tied, how they mirror each other etc...) and I believe that they are also tied to AGOT Bran I. My main take is that they hide the key about the Others, their creation and their relationship with the Starks. Unfortunately it's taking too long. But I'm looking forward to share it with you all to talk about in detail. Especially with @Feather Crystal because yes... there's definitelly something going on with those titled chapters and there's definitelly a path in the prologues too, but maybe there's even more than we believed untill now. However... I hope to finish it soon and discuss it all.
  13. A false dragon. I agree. But my bet is on Euron and whatever he's going to do in Oldtwon.
  14. lalt

    Poll: Is Lemore Actually Ashara?

    But.. "I knew" you would have loved that... :p In all seriusness, however, I believe there are pretty good chances (50%) that young Griff is a blackfire. But, the other 50% for me is young Griff as Ashara and Brandon son. And therefore Ashara=Lemor I enjoy the idea of Howland Reed and Ashara, but it still has a lot of problems imo. And I do not believe it could explain the ToJ events. Like I said somewhere else, the war was over by time. There were 0 reasons for Arthur to fight, unless he was still willingly to defende "his" king. A Targ king, bastard or not. That is why -I believe - in Ned's dream (not matter how accurate it is) the focus is on the KG's men... vows. And somehow, I really love the idea that Ashara in this story is more a villain than a heroine. A Lysa's Arryn type. And that Ned doesn't speak about her, not because he loved her, but for some kind of resentment.... And that the Daynes are grateful to Ned, because he could have chose to punish her with something worst than exile.
  15. lalt

    Poll: Is Lemore Actually Ashara?

    There is another...
  16. That's interesting, if not... disturbing if coupled with what Rhaegar said in the HotU visions: "he is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire"
  17. I agree with that. And I think that Jamie being raised into the kingsgard... at Harrenal was the turning point for Tywin. The real one. And knowing that before that, there were talks about a marriage between Jamie and Lysa Tully... well, maybe, maybe, Tywin was already part of the alliance. Who knows? And how could we: those were talks for adults people: Rickard Stark, Oster Tully, Jon Arryn... and Tywin. They're all dead or about to die when AGOT begins and Tywin is too smart to talk about it. However, beside that, I don't think (but that's me) that Robert knew about it. I believe he never wated to become king as well. I guess that was exactly the reason as to why he was the perfect pawn. The perfect choice for someone else - like Jon Arryn and/or Tywin - who wanted to rule from the shadow and in his place. Robert was the perfect puppet for people more clever than him. And the best way to keep a secret is not telling it to anyone...
  18. I think that as many things in ASOIAF, the symbolism it may work for other characters/plot line as well. So... yes. Nice catch. Same with Robert. And Robert shares many traits with the god Hephaestus a blacksmith and vigorous man with a beard, characterized by an hammer. Just like Robert. I guess @Feather Crystal may know about (or appreciate) these many parallels. Hephaestus, in fact, was also married to Aphrodite. Their marriage had no issue and Aphrodite had an affair with Ares/Mars, the God of War. When Hepaestus, discovered the trurth - to quote wikipedia - he planned "a trap during one of their trysts. While Aphrodite and Ares lay together in bed, Hephaestus ensnared them in an unbreakable chain-link net so small as to be invisible and dragged them to Mount Olympus to shame them in front of the other gods for retribution." So on one hand there's a parallel with Robert/Hephaestus, the beatiful Cersei/Aphrodite (and in both case you have a marriage without children) and Ares-Mars/Jamie (he's a knight). The difference of course is that Robert never found out the truth about his wife. At the same time, however, Raeghar could be Ares-Mars: the planet Mars, is in fact... a red planet that in the ancient times was considered a wondering star and Lyanna - Rhaegar's queen of Love and Beauty - could be the "cheating" Aphrodite, the godness of beauty and love. Finally, Hephaestus is blacksmith because he is also the God of vulcanos. And this part of the myth is far more close to the Valyrian/Targaryen's tradition as described by the serie. So things, details are really mixed up I think. But if I have to say mine about @Feather Crystal 's idea... I'd say that just because things are so mixed up, just because parallels work in so many different ways (as they have to, to not have a mere past and copy) I have another crackpot theory... I believe that Jon Arryn may be the key. That he used Robert and Ned (and not only) as pawns. That he may had planned Lyanna's disappearance knowing how all the players would have react. Knowing - for istance, given what happened at Harrenal - what Brandon could have done and what Aerys II may have done to him, as a consequence. Brandon's death (and that of his father) left Ned at the head of house Stark and he married Cat. So Ned - that was Jon's pupil, not Brandon - became a far more important pawn in Jon's Arryn hands. Same with Robert. Sure, he became king. But given Robert's attitude - something Jon Arry should have been well awere about - the real the power was in Jon Arryn's hands. Truth is, that he benefited more than Robert and House Stark from the rebellion. Same as Twyn. And... who knows, maybe Jon Arryn not only helped Little Finger's career, maybe he was his mentor in a far more interesting way
  19. I’m using your post because it’s a good recap of the idea “ a meteor caused the Long Night” but the question is for you all. I get the point and I also get how it may explain the birth of the Dragons. What I honestly don’t get is how that may be tied to the Others. We are reading of a new winter/long night coming. And this winter/long night brings the Others or maybe it’s the Others that brings the winter/long night. And sure, in the current times Dragons are re-born. However how do the Others fit with the idea meteor-long night- Dragons it’s something I still don’t get. Not even on a symbolic standpoint. For instance, I really like LML take on the symbolism moon+sun=Long night-meteor shower-Dragons. I really do and I guess most of the times his “metaphorical/symbolic” reading of the text is right. But it seems to me that is always about Dragons. So... yes. The question is: how do the Others come into play in this scenario. Is there any detailed theory or part of the theory that I miss?
  20. And then there's the Ned passage quoted earlier, that applies immediately after Lyanna died. I don't think we need to invoke greenseers to explain this sort of thing; it's just human nature. I was re-reading that Sam chapter (ASOS 18) yesterday or so... And I think there is a lot more than what first meet our eyes. If one pays attention there are a lot of passages that somehow parallel ADWD Bran chapters and the prologue as well, that beside the fact that the 3 of them at some point lose not only the sense of time but are uncapable of distiunguish dream/reality. Sam, Bran and Varamyr at some point find themselves half buried in the snow. They wish or fear to die while sleeping. They seek for fire and feel fire on their checks. In doing so, they think about their mothers. All of them at some point, feel the taste the blood in their mouths, they all fall on their knees (Bran while inside Hodor). They cannot walk. Bran for obvious reasons. Varamyr because he's injured, Sam becuase he's too tired and in their chapters that is a main narrative point. In addition, Sam ends up being carried by Small Paul, pretty much like Bran is by Hodor (and he is repeteadly called "pig", whereas Varamyr remebers what Eggon told him: that skinchargers - like him and therefore Bran - south of the Wall are killed like "pigs"). Sam and Varamyr, remember how their own fathers casted them away. In additon: SAM: "He was such a coward. Lord Randyll, his father, had always said so, and he had been right. Sam was his heir, but he had never been worthy, so his father had sent him away to the Wall." But Sam consoles himself thinking that at least he's going to die as man of night's watch. That he is a coward, but at least he had done his duty. Varamyr, instead, remembers how he wished to become King-Beyond-the-Wall but even tho he failed, he consoles himself thinking that at least he became some kind of Lord. And Bran, who wasn't casted away, has this to think: "I was going to be a knight, Bran remembered. I used to run and climb and fight. It seemed a thousand years ago. What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins" Because of that, he consoles himself thinking that at least he may become a greenseerer. Then look at this from ADWD Bran III "A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood." Sam is a reader. In addition in that chapter his role is essentialy that of taking care of ravens, ink, parchment. Varamyr on the other hand has already shown us what happens when a skincharger dies. And then this one "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven... but in those days, the birds would speak the words. The trees remember, but men forget, and so now they write the messages on parchment and tie them round the feet of birds who have never shared their skin." That is Sam's job vs what Bran is learing. There's another detail in ASOS Sam I that may tie to this: it's when t. Small Paul asks Sam... to sing. And Sam refuses. It's an odd passage. But reading the 2 chapters togheter, one as the parallel of the other, then suddenly it becomes interesting. Overall... I'd say that it is all about the theme of memory, of passing knowlege and how. Magic vs rational thinking. It may be also foreshadowing if not of the end game of how the story will end. In the sense that, in the era that will come after the battle for the Dawan, magic will die and the memory of what happened, the Song of Ice and Fire, will turn out to be a Song written in ink by Samwell Tarly.
  21. lalt

    Who is the 3EC?

    "There's the wolf dreams, those aren't so bad as the others. I run and hunt and kill squirrels. And there's dreams where the crow comes and tells me to fly. Sometimes the tree is in those dreams too, calling my name. That frightens me. But the worst dreams are when I fall." "Bran ate with Summer and his pack, as a wolf. As a raven he flew with the murder, circling the hill at sunset, watching for foes, feeling the icy touch of the air. As Hodor he explored the caves. Or if you wish: as a wolf, as a raven, as someone tied with to the weirwood net. It's Bran. But the hints are scattared...
  22. Like I said I don't have a precise idea/theory. That fact surely caught my attention and I am thinking about it. Whrere it may lead. But I am not sure of anything. And I don't know if dragon bones can be melted to the point of becoming ashes. But if so, then I think it doesn't matter that the dragon bones are black, because the ashes will be grey/white regarless. I mean, this is how it goes if you burn something black or red, blue, whatever... ashes are white/grey. That said... I am more incline to think that the weirwood trees may be the key. Especially because there was not iron, there was not steel during the Long Night - so I don't think dragonsteel is valyrian steel - but there were weirwood trees. And so far we know about 2 things that can become petrified: dragon eggs and weirwood trees. And we are told so many times that weirwood trees are white like bones and red like blood. In short I see a parallel between dragons/weirwoods. In addition.... there is a Coldhands quote that I keep thinking about. "Once the heart has ceased to beat, a man’s blood runs down into his extremities, where it thickens and congeals.” His voice rattled in his throat, as thin and gaunt as he was. “His hands and feet swell up and turn as black as pudding. The rest of him becomes as white as milk" And Sam had this to say about Coldhands "The rider wore no glove. His hand was black and cold, with fingers as hard as stone" So again: blood-black-stone. And the brances of trees are quite often associated to "fingers". And not only bones, but flash as white as milk. (Not to mention the black stone. What is it? Can it be that the one in Westeros is similar but not the same as that in Essos - so they parallel each other but they are not the same thing - and that in Westeros it's made of fused petrified weirwoods, or of fused stony leaf?) But these are all the pieces I see, those I believe that may be tellig. However I cannot put them in order. Sorry if it's a mess... but I don't know, may be someone else can.
  23. Sorry if I am going to move back the debate, but I feel some replies - even if late - are due. And I don't disagree with yours. It's that my current inclinations (nice choice of words, by the way) lay on the idea that the Devil is quite often in the details. Therefore, I suspect that the pattern may be: Lightbringer (a sword, a person, a dragon, something else) = a "sunny" figure, red and flaming like the sun-rising, like that precise phenomenon in physics that precedes dawn itself, like "Ausus" to use the latin definition of that phenomenon and whose etymology = something red and burning; Dawn white as the light of day, like dawn itself (in latin, dawn = alba lux = white light). If so, and more pecisaly if LB is a person, then he/she may use Dawn to fight... or not. Dawn may be a symbol of what must be reached, protected. Of a new era. That because it's the burning red sun that defeats the night and brings/fathers dawn (so much so that its champion is called "The Sword of the Morning" not "the Knight that lead us in the night", etc...). It's a 50%-50% bet to me, That said, I do believe that Ice will be reforged as a single sword regardless all of this, but if by chance I am right, then even more so, I'd say. Yeah, that and the fact iitself that Jon ended up living in Donal's quarters. But there's more than that... AA was a blacksmith and we should keep in mind that Ygritte associated Jon to the "red star" the free folk calls The Thief that in the Seven Kingdoms goes by the name of... The Smith. Add to it that Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna. We may believe or not the official version of that story, but maybe he did that in "free folk" terms.
  24. lalt

    A middle lane view of Rhaegar and Elia

    I agree there are pretty good chances that Elia wouldn’t been schoked or outraged if Rhaegar had a relationship with another woman. But just because their marriage was a political marriage I don’t think is safe to say that the Martells could have been 100% fine with that. Elia had “only” two children (a male infant and a little girl) and no chances to bare any other child That’s a fragile position is the purpose of your political marriage is to put one of your kin on the Iron Throne. Any mistress, paramount, if not second wife could have gave Rhaegar one or more children. And that child or children could have raised a claim vs Elia’s children. People like the Martells know that infants like Aegon may not survive childhood. That Rhaenys as other women before her may have been ururped by a male heir. That a bastard may be legitimized - just like Bittersteel - and rise a claim etc... I still believe that R+L=J but I also think the Martells didn’t know the truth or they were part of some plot or simply forced to stay true to Aerys because Elia, her children and Price Martell were basically hostages.
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