GloubieBoulga

Ha ha ! I just see now the wordplay well/wall. After all, the Wall is only icy water and might drown people where it melt.

Good catch, and that perfectly goes with the "sex and swordsplay" that @LmL recalled (but it's ASOS, not ACOK ^^)

Yes, eyes and nose gave me a solution, and also the parallelism between Tywin and Craster ^^ But I wonder if we can put exactly on the same line stags, whales, auroch, bulls and pigs and boars. I suspect (but without being certain) that stags or aurochs are regionals variations of the "bear character" as a king (= bear could be a "king" the North, and the stag in the south, for example), when bulls, pigs and boars are the false/fallen/dethroned form for them. But sometimes, we see directly a bear character loosing his throne. And those rams are truly fool bastards ! Ho ! I love the cheshire Cat stuff ! I didn't thought at all about it, but now that's sure, I will consider very attentively the crescent laughing moon. And indeed, we see this kind of moon during the wedding between Ramsay and fArya, and the weirwood is laughing (and perhaps also ready to eat, making the connection with the meat who was originally a sacrified animal for a feast) I'm interrogative about the "horned moon" (I can't recall if this expression exists in my native language) Finally, the wordplay between slaughter and laughter tells us also about feasts of deads/(after) battles

This. Second time that I see about Brienne and pigs/Pyg, and indeed, I studied last year all her quest in AFFC and I conclude that the all stuff was a "nekuia" (the greek/litterar word to say she goes to the other/underwold). So, during her travel, she meets many deads and many gods (all symbolics), when she is looking for dead girls (Sansa and Arya are dead as Starks; and if I think they will reborn, I doubt they will reborn as Stark). The travel conducts her to the queen of the deads, aka LSH. But I want to stop at the 2 fights Brienne has : - the first is at the Whispers, against 3 Bloody Mummers. When I began to study the stuff, I confused them with Rorge and Biter, and I thought that she was fighting against the Robert's and Ned's form in underworld (Rorge = Robert and Biter = Ned, the "mute wolf", his true friend), but these two are fighted at the Orphan's Inn. So I let the 3 Mummers at the Whispers - that didn't stop the rest of the reflexion. I just re-read the chapter few days ago, and : - Tymeon the Dornish represents Oberyn : that's easy, he wears spears and appears as a snake emerging from a well (=from the underworld). - Pyg : he gave me difficulties, in fact. But one detail gave me a solution : Brienne recognizes the eyes. And 2 characters have very particulars and disturbing eyes Roose and Tywin. I don't recall if Tywin's are small, but that's not very important, I think : the important thing is that Tywin can be identified by his eyes. Pyg slid from the bushes : ok, when you are in nature, the toilets are the bushes. And Pyg emerges caked with ... hum hum... mud (little digression : here, I think there is a connection - made unvolontary by Dolorous Edd - between the mud at Craster Keep "Craster's shit" and the assertion "lord Tywin's shit is flecked with gold" because of Casterly Rock). The nose could be a reference to Tyrion's lost nose - Shagwell. Well. I think about Joffrey : he has a morningstar with three head : that could be in the same time a kind of hammer with 3 heads (= Robert's hammer + heads that Joffrey obtained), and the 3 "royals" swords he had : Lion's heart, Heart Eater and Widow's Wail. There is a reminiscence of this last one during the dialog between Shagwell and Brienne : I can mention the fact that Shagwell make japes and is amusing when he is cruel, exactly like Joffrey was. He's also obsessed by raping Brienne, as Joffrey was obsessed by Sansa's body and wanted to bed with her at her wedding. To complete the picture, our infernal trio is looking for a passage out of Westeros by ship : is it to find a real quiet in the death or is it to come back from the underworld ? The fact is that Dick Crabbe could be a reminiscence of another dead, more ancient : Rhaegar. : Not as if it was the great form ^^. Nimble Dick is from Crackclaw Point, where people considering the Baratheon as usurpers and are allways in spirit for the dragons, the "real dragons"; he conducts a maiden (ok, she is special, but Lyanna also had fought at a tourney if she was the Laughing Tree Knight at Harrenhal), and he sings too. Ok, Dick never ends his songs, but I suspect Rhaegar hadn't finish some songs he was composing, especially the song of Ice and Fire ^^. I didn't found yet why Brienne was encountering all these deads. They are all part of a "wild hunt", and to come back to the bear/boar stuff, I suspect that an ancient Stark Bear character was killed durring a hunt. Perhaps that looking for "a maiden"/"her sister", Brienne is unvolontary reuniting some elements of the ancient story where a king could have purchased/hunted a maiden too. Like Robert who began by hunting Lyanna and Rhaegar, and never stop hunting after that. To resume : yes, I think that pigs, bears, boars (and also stags and bulls and aurochs) are too strongly linked to be studied separately. And now, no very order, but reflexions and some ideas (some are just improvised) I have an hypothesis about the wolves/lions/others predators : after the death of the "bear character", the "wolf character" (ancestor of the Stark) received the crown. And now, he must abandon it or/and die to permit the rebirth of the bear character as a "king". In the story, rams/goats/lambs could have been the "bastard", the character who was accused from the death of the "king", but really not responsible (for example, Craster is a criminal, but he didn't kill Jeor Mormont). Perhaps, the "ram character" was also hunting/purchasing the maiden, and perhaps with more success. That also could explain why Jaime (the Kingslayer) and Brienne (the maiden of the Kingslayer) are arriving for a trial with LSH "queen of the underworld" and mother of a dead king as judge. The more I think I think to this, the more I make the link with the greenseers. When I quoted Tyrion's chapter, dance, laugh and slaught are together, and it could represent the fact to be "inhabited" by a skinchanger/a greenseer, probably not like Hodor is, but like the direwolves are when their master/partneir don't take the controll but are just inside : both spirits are directly in contact and they can mix, but one isn't really conscient of that because he keeps the controll. To go further, I think that Tyrion, Brienne and Sandor Clegane (and Aeron Greyjoy and Patchface) have known such experience when they are dead or very near dead, and that saved them. To note, also : Stannis never laughs, and Robert is a very huge laughter. And Theon is a smiler and punished by physically loosing his smile. In the pig-bear-ram-lion-wolf-dragon 's story, I don't spoke about the dragons nor the birds. Well, the birds are linked to the greenseers, and I think the "original bird" is the real kingslayer. And dragons are here to break the lies of the bird(s). Perhaps the "greenseer's laugh" could reproduct a first laugh when he slaughtered the "original" king. PS : you spoke of @sweetsunray and that's precisely her thread about the Bear and the fair Maiden that gave me last summer the pieces that missed in my reflexions (I was about an ancient kinslayer and a kingslayer, but unable to put the pieces together to obtain something totally coherent). All thanks to her ! (and I discovered Westeros.org at the same time ^^)

This "pig stuff" reminds me that I had also noted some things about the pigs (and the roar) as kind of fallen/"dethroned" bears, especially in the saga : Robert appears like a bear and like a pig, but same metaphor is about Samwell Tarly, and also for Tyrion. And when the bear is a pig, he is hunted and killed by lions or wolves or others predators (and eaten by crows ?). But I didn't have yet studied these points. I come with a possible wordplay (perhaps it was already noted and I missed it) : - laughter/laugh and slaughter. It apppears very clear in a Tyrion's chapter, during the Blackwater battle : I never noted it before (I wasn't reading the whole saga in english, as I do yet), but this calls me, especially joined to the "battle-fever" who speaks from a kind of possession (and perhaps, it could be the occasion for a greenseer to "dream" a battle inside a fighting person - perhaps it is a clue that it's really what happens). It made me remembering the Laughing tree, but also the mocking bird of LF, and Cersei's dream when she is bit and eated by the iron throne and she sees at the same time Tyrion hard laughing at her (her first chapter in AFFC, if I remember well). And to finish, the Others in the prologue. Note also that at the end of his chapter (the one of the "battle fever"), Tyrion is croaking like a crow (not so far from "cracking" like ice, perhaps). I don't know if someone has already studied the "laugh" in the saga, but it seams there are some interesting things in this theme I forgot also Brienne at the Whispers, when she is litteraly slaughtering Shagwell :