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Posts posted by GloubieBoulga

  1. The trio's figure is intriguing, and I also believe that it's not reserved to dragons, and the kneeling before the queen is interesting too; in the same Idea, the Harpy - Dany's ennemie - has three daughters, but "bastard" daughters if we follow Ser Jorah (ACOK, Daenerys 2)


    Old Ghis had fallen five thousand years ago, if she remembered true; its legions shattered by the might of young Valyria, its brick walls pulled down, its streets and buildings turned to ash and cinder by dragonflame, its very fields sown with salt, sulfur, and skulls. The gods of Ghis were dead, and so too its people; these Astapori were mongrels, Ser Jorah said. Even the Ghiscari tongue was largely forgotten; the slave cities spoke the High Valyrian of their conquerors, or what they had made of it.

    The queen has 3 bastard children, sure, but is she the "stranger" ? Or could the "stranger" be some other character (a "valonqar", for example ?)


    I have made other observations for the "stranger" : 6 + 1 (there is always one missing)

    As we can observe a symbolic avatar when Daenerys visits Vaes Tolorro, for exemple (ACOK, Daenerys 1)


    At a place where six alleys came together, Dany passed an empty marble plinth. Dothraki had visited this place before, it would seem. Perhaps even now the missing statue stood among the other stolen gods in Vaes Dothrak. 

    Number six appears in the very first scene with the Others. And perhaps, we could also pretend - if we follow Craster's wives and accord to them that Others are Craster's sons - that Gilly's son is the missing/stolen (saved ?) seventh.

    Note also that there is always a lord commander among the King's Guards (and when Jaime comes back for a little while, he is missing his sword's hand). Even Renly's Guard can't be completed.



  2. 1 hour ago, Seams said:

    Septon Chayle is seen interacting with Tyrion and Bran - providing key items or insights for their education - but he then seems to turn up - inexplicably - at The Wall. (I know, I know. People who prefer to read only the literal story are convinced that the author made a mistake when he referred to Septon Chayle at Castle Black. I don't think the author makes those kinds of mistakes so spare me your insistence on over-simplifying complex works of literary fiction.) Theon threw Septon Chayle into a well, which might be an interesting variation on the theme of walking a path: followers of the drowned god might want to swim a path in the water instead of walking through the green lands. Alternatively, Theon has a couple of key scenes at the pool in the Winterfell god's wood. If the well is linked to that pool, the Septon in the well could be a symbolic way of forging a path for Theon as a symbolic custodian of that sacred pool (and rescuer of Jeyne Poole).

    Ha ha ! I just see now the wordplay well/wall. After all, the Wall is only icy water and might drown people where it melt.

  3. 13 hours ago, Seams said:

    Anything that provides insight about Septa Mordane is particularly welcome, and the parallels between her and the Braavos characters could help tremendously. In my own past efforts to comb through details, I noticed that the first time GRRM mentions a rustling skirt, he is referring to Septa Mordane. Subsequently, he mentions princes or kings hiding behind their mother's skirts. I thought this was a clue that Septa Mordane was the secret mother of a prince or king and that was about all I had on her - aside from her severed head being mounted on the wall of the Red Keep next to Ned's head.

    I used to see Septa Mordane as a variation on the "bad stepmother" (instead of Catelyn Stark), with Arya replaying the part of Cinderella. There is much allusions to Cinderella in Arya's story : she has "2 sisters" (Sansa and Jeyne, or Sansa and Myrcella in Sansa's very first chapter, where Jeyne doesn't appear; at Braavos, there are Brusco's 2 daughters, if I remember well), a "fairy godmother" with lady Smallwood giving her a new skirt (after that, she went out with her "prince Gendry", Arya IV ASOS), the mother dead (or absent), a father whom she is the "preferred" daughter ... The tale of the waif in the HOBAW seems to tell also a Cinderella's story. 

    Cinderella's themes are in Arya's arc, but with some differences (Arya is the "ugly" daughter, like the "ugly little duck") and different issues (Arya flees and escapes to find a new life in others places, like Nymeria did in the past) : Arya is a kind of adventurous and dangerous Cinderella.


    Good stuff, Lady Dacey, which opens many ways to explore !

  4. 19 minutes ago, teej6 said:

    Why do you think Rickon does not have his wolf? We don’t have any information that Shaggydog is dead. 

    I was a bit short when writing : I wanted to say whithout the wolf there is no Rickon Stark (Manderly insists on the wolf as a identity's proof), but with the wolf and the "identity's proof", the game to gain the lordship in the North could be difficult as well for Rickon Stark. The narrative schema could be the exact opposit of Young Griff, pretending being Aegon Targaryen without dragons and possibly gaining easy the IT. I find the perspective interesting. 


    28 minutes ago, teej6 said:

    Sorry, but how is Rickon relevant to Theon’s character development?

    Probably because Theon was the one who executed "Rickon" (and "Bran"). If a living Rickon reappears, Theon can't be guilty for his death. 

  5. On 6/11/2019 at 4:19 PM, LadyOfCastamere said:

    I was thinking about GRRM's hint that 'History repeats itself' and so I tried to figure out which character could fit a character within the Asoiaf history. I read ideas that compared Aegon's bastard to the Stark children and found a lot of the thoughts very worthy of reading.

    At first sight, Rickon is playing on the same theme than young Griff : the hidden heir escaped from the death and the doom of his family who will claim the throne for "him" - in fact for the desire of power/revenge of other people (Varys/Illyrio for Young Griff, and Manderly for Rickon). The difference is that young Griff is probably a false heir and has good chances to gain the IT (but will he be able to keep it ?), but Rickon without the wolf has no sense and could have very few supporters in the North (= people who just don't want the Manderlys as biggest power in the North). Rickon could have a very bad and tragic end if he can't escape this game of throne.

  6. 11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

    the small eyes and flat nose?

    See Craster (the Ram), but also bears: bears have small eyes in comparison to their massive heads and flat noses as well...That's why we have Craster posing as a bear (living in den in the woods), but actually being a ram (with a harem of sheep and children as lambs).


    Yes, eyes and nose gave me a solution, and also the parallelism between Tywin and Craster ^^

    But I wonder if we can put exactly on the same line stags, whales, auroch, bulls and pigs and boars. I suspect (but without being certain) that stags or aurochs are regionals variations of the "bear character" as a king (= bear could be a "king" the North, and the stag in the south, for example), when bulls, pigs and boars are the false/fallen/dethroned form for them. But sometimes, we see directly a bear character loosing his throne. 


    So, we have rams and goats posing as bear lords or lords over bears. Then we have pigs and boars who might actually be bullied bears. We have stags sacrificed like bears. And we also have whales, who are bears who hunt the hunter.

    And those rams are truly fool bastards ! 


    17 hours ago, LmL said:


    @GloubieBoulga, weirwoods are also slaughter trees for what it's worth. I'd have to agree those words are meant to play off one another. There's also the link between laughing and slaying implied by the Crescent moon. It can either be a sickle, such as Bran's last ADWD chapter, or it can be a smile like a Cheshire cat moon. Martin is working that angle quite a bit.  

    ETA: you might consider the scene from AFFC where Jaime and The silent knight Ilyn Payne dance beneath the horned moon, with Payne doing his choking laughter thing


    Ho ! I love the cheshire Cat stuff ! I didn't thought at all about it, but now that's sure, I will consider very attentively the crescent laughing moon. And indeed, we see this kind of moon during the wedding between Ramsay and fArya, and the weirwood is laughing (and perhaps also ready to eat, making the connection with the meat who was originally a sacrified animal for a feast)

    I'm interrogative about the "horned moon" (I can't recall if this expression exists in my native language)

    Finally, the wordplay between slaughter and laughter tells us also about feasts of deads/(after) battles

  7. 3 hours ago, Seams said:

    There is also a lot of pig symbolism associated with Brienne. Which prove the need for fuller examination. I don't know whether we can decode pigs in isolation, or whether they won't make sense unless we look at bears / boars (and wolves, lions - maybe rams? dragons?) at the same time.

    This. Second time that I see about Brienne and pigs/Pyg, and indeed, I studied last year all her quest in AFFC and I conclude that the all stuff was a "nekuia" (the greek/litterar word to say she goes to the other/underwold). So, during her travel, she meets many deads and many gods (all symbolics), when she is looking for dead girls (Sansa and Arya are dead as Starks; and if I think they will reborn, I doubt they will reborn as Stark). The travel conducts her to the queen of the deads, aka LSH. 

    But I want to stop at the 2 fights Brienne has : 

    - the first is at the Whispers, against 3 Bloody Mummers. When I began to study the stuff, I confused them with Rorge and Biter, and I thought that she was fighting against the Robert's and Ned's form in underworld (Rorge = Robert and Biter = Ned, the "mute wolf", his true friend), but these two are fighted at the Orphan's Inn. 

    So I let the 3 Mummers at the Whispers - that didn't stop the rest of the reflexion. I just re-read the chapter few days ago, and :

    - Tymeon the Dornish represents Oberyn : that's easy, he wears spears and appears as a snake emerging from a well (=from the underworld).

    - Pyg : he gave me difficulties, in fact. But one detail gave me a solution :



    Brienne saw a sapling sway. From the bushes slid a man, so caked with dirt that he looked as if he had sprouted from the earth. A broken sword was in his hand, but it was his face that gave her pause, the small eyes and wide flat nostrils.
    She knew that nose. She knew those eyes. Pyg, his friends had called him.


    Brienne recognizes the eyes. And 2 characters have very particulars and disturbing eyes Roose and Tywin. I don't recall if Tywin's are small, but that's not very important, I think : the important thing is that Tywin can be identified by his eyes. 
    Pyg slid from the bushes : ok, when you are in nature, the toilets are the bushes. And Pyg emerges caked with ... hum hum... mud (little digression : here, I think there is a connection - made unvolontary by Dolorous Edd - between the mud at Craster Keep "Craster's shit" and the assertion "lord Tywin's shit is flecked with gold" because of Casterly Rock). 
    The nose could be a reference to Tyrion's lost nose
    - Shagwell. Well. I think about Joffrey : he has a morningstar with three head : that could be in the same time a kind of hammer with 3 heads (= Robert's hammer + heads that Joffrey obtained), and the 3 "royals" swords he had : Lion's heart, Heart Eater and Widow's Wail. There is a reminiscence of this last one during the dialog between Shagwell and Brienne : 


    "Oh, I have, I have, I shan't deny it . . . but I'm amusing, with all my japes and capers. I make men laugh."
    "And women weep." (Brienne IV, AFFC)



    I can mention the fact that Shagwell make japes and is amusing when he is cruel, exactly like Joffrey was. He's also obsessed by raping Brienne, as Joffrey was obsessed by Sansa's body and wanted to bed with her at her wedding. 


    To complete the picture, our infernal trio is looking for a passage out of Westeros by ship : is it to find a real quiet in the death or is it to come back from the underworld ? 

    The fact is that Dick Crabbe could be a reminiscence of another dead, more ancient : Rhaegar. : 


    He was scrawny and ill fed, his only armor a dinted halfhelm spotted with rust. In place of a sword, he carried an old, nicked dagger. So long as she was awake, he posed no danger to her.

    Not as if it was the great form ^^. Nimble Dick is from Crackclaw Point, where people considering the Baratheon as usurpers and are allways in spirit for the dragons, the "real dragons"; he conducts a maiden (ok, she is special, but Lyanna also had fought at a tourney if she was the Laughing Tree Knight at Harrenhal), and he sings too. Ok, Dick never ends his songs, but I suspect Rhaegar hadn't finish some songs he was composing, especially the song of Ice and Fire ^^. 

    I didn't found yet why Brienne was encountering all these deads. They are all part of a "wild hunt", and to come back to the bear/boar stuff, I suspect that an ancient Stark Bear character was killed durring a hunt. Perhaps that looking for "a maiden"/"her sister", Brienne is unvolontary reuniting some elements of the ancient story where a king could have purchased/hunted a maiden too. Like Robert who began by hunting Lyanna and Rhaegar, and never stop hunting after that. 


    To resume : yes, I think that pigs, bears, boars (and also stags and bulls and aurochs) are too strongly linked to be studied separately. 


    And now, no very order, but reflexions and some ideas (some are just improvised)


    3 hours ago, Seams said:

    If there is a cycle of the Winter King and Summer King, we do see a fairly good alternating pattern: Summer king Robert dies - killed by a boar; Winter king Ned dies. (King Robert also wanted the boar meat served at his funeral feast, so he was already anticipating the cycle of killing and replacing the next boar.) Renly dies; Robb dies; Joffrey dies after demanding that Tyrion ride a pig. Jon Snow "dies" after teaming up with a boar skinchanger . . . I realize that you could argue that Ned and Jon are not kings, that Balon Greyjoy doesn't seem to fit the alternating pattern, and that Jeor Mormont is a bear who dies, but he isn't a king. (Although I think his death with Craster represents the death of a bear and a ram together.) And you point out that Sam Tarly as Ser Piggy is part of the pig motif. There is also a lot of pig symbolism associated with Brienne. Which prove the need for fuller examination. I don't know whether we can decode pigs in isolation, or whether they won't make sense unless we look at bears / boars (and wolves, lions - maybe rams? dragons?) at the same time.

    I have an hypothesis about the wolves/lions/others predators : after the death of the "bear character", the "wolf character" (ancestor of the Stark) received the crown. And now, he must abandon it or/and die to permit the rebirth of the bear character as a "king". 

    In the story, rams/goats/lambs could have been the "bastard", the character who was accused from the death of the "king", but really not responsible (for example, Craster is a criminal, but he didn't kill Jeor Mormont). 

    Perhaps, the "ram character" was also hunting/purchasing the maiden, and perhaps with more success. 

    That also could explain why Jaime (the Kingslayer) and Brienne (the maiden of the Kingslayer) are arriving for a trial with LSH "queen of the underworld" and mother of a dead king as judge. 



    3 hours ago, Seams said:

    I expect the laughter / slaughter wordplay might also help us to sort out the references to butchers and butcher kings (which probably ties back into the bear / boar / bore pun).

    I wonder whether GRRM also wants us to connect "laugh" and "fall"? They are not spelled alike, but they would sound alike if reversed.

    The more I think I think to this, the more I make the link with the greenseers. 

    When I quoted Tyrion's chapter, dance, laugh and slaught are together, and it could represent the fact to be "inhabited" by a skinchanger/a greenseer, probably not like Hodor is, but like the direwolves are when their master/partneir don't take the controll but are just inside : both spirits are directly in contact and they can mix, but one isn't really conscient of that because he keeps the controll. To go further, I think that Tyrion, Brienne and Sandor Clegane (and Aeron Greyjoy and Patchface) have known such experience when they are dead or very near dead, and that saved them. 

    To note, also : Stannis never laughs, and Robert is a very huge laughter. And Theon is a smiler and punished by physically loosing his smile. 

    In the pig-bear-ram-lion-wolf-dragon 's story, I don't spoke about the dragons nor the birds. 

    Well, the birds are linked to the greenseers, and I think the "original bird" is the real kingslayer. And dragons are here to break the lies of the bird(s).

    Perhaps the "greenseer's laugh" could reproduct a first laugh when he slaughtered the "original" king.  


    PS : you spoke of @sweetsunray and that's precisely her thread about the Bear and the fair Maiden that gave me last summer the pieces that missed in my reflexions (I was about an ancient kinslayer and a kingslayer, but unable to put the pieces together to obtain something totally coherent). All thanks to her ! (and I discovered Westeros.org at the same time ^^)

  8. On 07/02/2017 at 5:16 PM, Seams said:

    Without a doubt! I wish you would fully develop this, if the spirit moves you, because there is so much pig-related stuff I haven't sort out. And a lot of it seems to come back to Tyrion.

    Somewhere I jotted down some thoughts about the "Tyrion as Odysseus" symbolism but I can't find it now. The Cersei/Circe comparison is almost certainly deliberate, but we also have Penny as Penelope. And the two female characters seem to overlap and change places (as in variations on the ancient legend), with Tyrion becoming Penny's "brother" when he takes over Groat's role in the jousting act - does that make Penny into a semi-Cersei character, as Tyrion's "sister"? If so, that adds a new layer of meaning to her attempts to seduce her brother.

    Pigs were also the "witnesses" at Tyrion's wedding to Tysha.

    Brienne has a couple of pig moments that might be significant - she sees baby pigs around a well (in the company of a crone figure) before she begins her quest with Dick Crabb. Then she encounters (and kills) a character from the Bloody Mummers named Pyg (along with Tymeon and Shagwell).

    I've wondered about a possible wordplay angle with pig iron - the crude, impure iron that is further refined to make steel. I wonder whether the message is that Tyrion is a pig figure until he is refined by the hardships he encounters in his travels through Essos. Maybe Brienne is also being transformed from pig iron into steel.

    This "pig stuff" reminds me that I had also noted some things about the pigs (and the roar) as kind of fallen/"dethroned" bears, especially in the saga : Robert appears like a bear and like a pig, but same metaphor is about Samwell Tarly, and also for Tyrion. And when the bear is a pig, he is hunted and killed by lions or wolves or others predators (and eaten by crows ?). But I didn't have yet studied these points.  


    I come with a possible wordplay (perhaps it was already noted and I missed it) : 

    - laughter/laugh and slaughter. 

    It apppears very clear in a Tyrion's chapter, during the Blackwater battle : 


    The battle fever. He had never thought to experience it himself, though Jaime had told him of it often enough. How time seemed to blur and slow and even stop, how the past and the future vanished until there was nothing but the instant, how fear fled, and thought fled, and even your body. "You don't feel your wounds then, or the ache in your back from the weight of the armor, or the sweat running down into your eyes. You stop feeling, you stop thinking, you stop being you, there is only the fight, the foe, this man and then the next and the next and the next, and you know they are afraid and tired but you're not, you're alive, and death is all around you but their swords move so slowly, you can dance through them laughing." Battle fever. I am half a man and drunk with slaughter, let them kill me if they can!

    They tried. Another spearman ran at him. Tyrion lopped off the head of his spear, then his hand, then his arm, trotting around him in a circle. An archer, bowless, thrust at him with an arrow, holding it as if it were a knife. The destrier kicked at the man's thigh to send him sprawling, and Tyrion barked laughter. (Tyrion XIV, ACOK)

    I never noted it before (I wasn't reading the whole saga in english, as I do yet), but this calls me, especially joined to the "battle-fever" who speaks from a kind of possession (and perhaps, it could be the occasion for a greenseer to "dream" a battle inside a fighting person - perhaps it is a clue that it's really what happens). 

    It made me remembering the Laughing tree, but also the mocking bird of LF, and Cersei's dream when she is bit and eated by the iron throne and she sees at the same time Tyrion hard laughing at her (her first chapter in AFFC, if I remember well). And to finish, the Others in the prologue. 

    Note also that at the end of his chapter (the one of the "battle fever"), Tyrion is croaking like a crow (not so far from "cracking" like ice, perhaps). 

    I don't know if someone has already studied the "laugh" in the saga, but it seams there are some interesting things in this theme


    I forgot also Brienne at the Whispers, when she is litteraly slaughtering Shagwell : 


    She knocked aside his arm and punched the steel into his bowels. "Laugh," she snarled at him. He moaned instead. "Laugh," she repeated, grabbing his throat with one hand and stabbing at his belly with the other. "Laugh!" She kept saying it, over and over, until her hand was red up to the wrist and the stink of the fool's dying was like to choke her. But Shagwell never laughed. The sobs that Brienne heard were all her own. When she realized that, she threw down her knife and shuddered.


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