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Lollygag

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  1. Lollygag

    Small Questions v. 10106

    Not a theory, but maybe keep in mind that there's a lot of crossover between snakes/bats/dragons in the series. Bran thinks the dragon vision from Winterfell as a snake with wings. Rhaego was described as having been born with bat wings. Sansa was described as a wolf with bat wings when she and Tyrion were clearly symbolic Targs (or not so symbolic depending on your views of A+J=T) at the Purple Wedding with Tyrion in red and black and Sansa in silver and purple with stones from Asshai. Harrenhal was burned by dragons but is now inhabited by giant bats. Bran sees giant bat skeletons in the caves, but the dragon stuff going on there is fairly screaming so I'm not so sure at all that he isn't seeing small dragon skeletons. ADWD Daenerys VIII The dragons craned their necks around, gazing at them with burning eyes. Viserion had shattered one chain and melted the others. He clung to the roof of the pit like some huge white bat, his claws dug deep into the burnt and crumbling bricks. Rhaegal, still chained, was gnawing on the carcass of a bull. The bones on the floor of the pit were deeper than the last time she had been down here, and the walls and floors were black and grey, more ash than brick. They would not hold much longer … but behind them was only earth and stone. Can dragons tunnel through rock, like the firewyrms of old Valyria? She hoped not.
  2. Lollygag

    Ned Stark’s words ring hollow.

    That's not the full quote and when it's hacked up, the original meaning gets lost. AGOT Arya II "Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me." It means that if the Starks encounter hard times, they need to stick together, not that they should live the entirety of their lives almost literally joined at the hip. That was never going to happen anyhow. They were all going to go their separate ways even in normal times. AGOT Jon I He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?
  3. Lollygag

    A Bittersweet ending?

    Bittersweet is a plant and the orange color comes from that. It's commonly used as an Autumn decoration in my neck of the US. https://www.mda.state.mn.us/plants/pestmanagement/weedcontrol/noxiouslist/orientalbittersweet/bittersweetdiffs
  4. Lollygag

    Tyrek Lannister theories?

    Tyrek was *very* ticked about the marriage. My head canon is that someone like Varys or LF talked him into flipping sides by promising to get Tyrek out of it.
  5. Lollygag

    Prequel Pilot Filming Begins

    Ok, so I guess they only interfere with show quality for absurd reasons like this. Way to go HBO. https://slate.com/culture/2019/07/big-little-lies-andrea-arnold-creative-control-report.html
  6. Lollygag

    Prequel Pilot Filming Begins

    My problem is zero trust in HBO to make sure their shows don't go so off the rails that they become international jokes.
  7. Your questions assume the show was operating from a place of logic. Come on. You know better. Like a lot of wtf events of the past season, northern independence was just a plot device to give characters stuff to do, set up hack conflicts and Mean Girls crap, and to make Dany go off the rails. As for Sansa declaring independence when Bran was king, they were setting up a new system for establishing the ruler meaning this wasn't just about now, but about a new order for Westeros. It worked out right now that there's a Stark on the IT, but the North would be back in the same boat with Bran's successor who wouldn't be Stark because he can't have kids. And Bran's ruling as a raven, not a wolf. And he says he's not Bran anymore whatever that means thus his loyalties aren't the same. Show didn't explain that well. Yet another example of not taking the time to add a few lines for clarity which would make all the difference. Bran sees all kinds of stuff in the future but he looked blindsided by Sansa wanting independence when she's been harping about it all season. Whatever. But we can take it more seriously if we think this'll factor into the books. Why is Northern independence so important? So far it's not. It's really just not wanting to be under the Lannisters. There are rumors that Joff's full inbred Lannister, Stannis and Renly were both at war which underscore the not-Baratheonness of Cersei and her kids, and Cat worked out a weird deal with Renly that while Robb kept his title, he'd go back to being under Baratheon rule. The North is itching at having their culture get too Southernized, but that really doesn't seem to be a big deal in itself, just a perk of independence. If Northern independence becomes a thing in the books, it looks more like it'll be about not wanting to be under Lannisters, Euron (yikes), or Dany's Dothraki/Unsullied fire & blood army which it looks set up that NO ONE will like (hence Varys' and Illyrio's plan to follow up with Aegon as Viserys/Dany would be permanently damaged by that alliance). Will the North have the same laws? Some, but they're itching to go back to some of their older ways. The North seems least Southernized with the Mormonts who don't always marry, have women leaders and don't sweat bastards. They named Robb King of Winter. It's a big thing in the books that some of the old ways have been lost being under the IT. No Stark is going to allow the First Night thing to come back and that's not just a Northern thing, that's a Westerosi thing. Aerys tried to pull it. The North has been supplying most of the Wall for a long time now. The World of Ice and Fire - The Wall and Beyond: The Night’s Watch Only the fact that the Northmen themselves greatly honor the Watch has kept it functioning, and a great part of the food that keeps the black brothers of Castle Black, the Shadow Tower, and Eastwatch-by-the-Sea from starving comes not from the Gift but from the yearly gifts these Northern lords deliver to the Wall in token of their support. As others have said, Sansa can marry and the kids would take her name. The Bael's bastard story tells us it's happened with the Starks before and we've seen it in other families too. There's also the Mormont route which would be for Sansa to go really Northy and just have kids without marrying as the North isn't as bothered about bastards. Ramsey's a bastard who ruled the North then followed by bastard Jon. No one really cared much. There's some set up for this in the books. Sansa thinks she might not want to marry again, she's enjoying freedom as a bastard herself, and she was intrigued by Oberyn and Ellaria who were unmarried. As she's a new monarch under a new system, it wouldn't be a bad idea for her to set an alliance with a family to father her kids, but to not extend any real power to them with a marriage.
  8. Lollygag

    Elemental symbolism

    @Aldarion Great topic! I've noticed this, too but you've really fleshed it out with some added information I've not explored, so thanks! I see where all of the major houses fit into elemental categorizations, some more debatable than others. Each seems to have a primary and then a more loosey-goosey secondary one, and then perhaps a third is prominent in some cases. On the side, I think GRRM is writing the story where it needs to go, is taking the characters where they need to be, and is expressing themes as they need to be expressed. I don't think he's prioritize any arbitrary structures or categorizations (if there indeed are any) over of any of these more important things. So, I'm not sure that GRRM is doing anything too special here. Maybe it just became a frame work for laying out Westeros and the families so I tend to not see it as anything too rigid and more as a different way of exploring this world. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Houses_of_Westeros We have Westeros divided into 9 here and things work out nicely based off of this. North – Stark (Earth, Water) Iron Islands – Greyjoy (Water, Air) Riverlands – Tully (Water, Fire) Vale - Arryn (Air, Earth) Westerlands - Lannister (Earth, Fire) Reach – Tyrell (see below) Stormlands – Baratheon (Air, Water) Dorne – Martell (Fire, Earth) Crownlands – Targaryen (Dragonstone) (Fire, Air) Earth Primary – Lannister (The Rock, mines) Primary – Stark (wierwood trees, underground, crypts, stone, it's been pointed out the forum by I wish I could recall that whenever a Stark tries to hide behind stone be it literal or a name (Alayne Stone, Stoneheart), they always find safety) Secondary – Arryn (Mountains, stone) Secondary – Martel (sand) Fire Primary – Martel (sun) Primary – Targs (duh) Secondary – Lannister (lion as sun, gold) Secondary – Tully (Kissed by Fire) Water Primary – Tully (fish, rivers) Primary – Greyjoy (What is dead may never die, Drowned God, ships) Secondary – Stark (ice, snow) Secondary – Baratheon (descended from Elenei, the daughter of the sea god, and the source of their black hair Air Primary – Baratheon (storm) Primary – Arryn (Eyrie, as High as Honor) Secondary – Targs (flight via dragon) Secondary – Greyjoy (Sailing requires wind) Tyrell Initially, the Tyrells seem linked to Earth, but on reflection, they’re not about earth like the Starks (weirwoods, caves, crypts) or the Lannisters (caves, mines, gold) but about growth and the cycle of life. This is the origin of Garth Greenhand, the Three Singers, Oldtown, and the Citadel. All four elements are needed for a proper life cycle and it represents balance and this seems important in a story where balance is so out of whack. Changing subjects, the elemental organization applies nicely to the 4 POV Stark kids. Four Stark kids, four elements. I'm intrigued by the find of a spirit element if it can be called that as that's a great fit for Robb/Greywind. Again, I'm not about trying to force these too much so much as just playing with them. · Bran is tied to Earth. He’s in a cave, tapped into trees. · Arya is possibly mastering water magic. The FM oppose fire. Their magic is about changeability and water is the most changeable of the four elements being able to take vapor, liquid or solid forms. Water’s shape changes to that of its container, so what the FM do might be a form of water magic as they put on a “container” in the form of a face and become no one, or let the container shape them. Now Nymeria’s name makes sense if Arya is in fact mastering a water magic from the the Rhoyne. Also, a lot of Syrio’s instruction to Arya can be summarized as “be like water”, and in fact, she was learning water dancing. It can be argued that Arya is a Bolton having been married by proxy via Jeyne Poole and the symbolism when Arya was escaping Roose leans heavily to Arya Bolton. The Boltons do skin like the FM, and seem rather different. Maybe Other-y. If the Boltons are in fact connected to the Others, and what they do sounds similar to what the FM do, then the Boltons performing a similar water magic and being connected to the Others makes sense. · Jon would be linked to fire if the story goes a certain direction but I wouldn't say that's the case now. Jon was pretty strongly linked to fire in AGOT, but since then it's been almost non-existent beyond kissed by fire and weirwoods, so who knows. But if we're looking at Starks proper, Shaggydog is repeated described as having wildfire eyes and Rickon has a scary, out-of-control temper (attacks Luwin, goes against Bran in showing the Freys the crypts which is a "Stark place", Shaggy has to be tied up). Rickon's a Burn it All! type of kid. · Sansa is left with air, and is already connected to air through the Eyrie and the “little bird” nickname. She’s often described as wearing sky blue, having her head in the clouds (dreams and fairy tales) and is perceived as a bit of an air-head. I’m not exactly sure how this could play out in the story, but if Sansa could warg Lady’s spirit who is obviously non-corporeal, then she could sort of warg air, or something like that. RL gods associated with death are often connected to air because that’s where spirits/souls are perceived to hang out. Lady’s death may have been necessary to connect Sansa to air.
  9. Lollygag

    The problem with Bran being king narrative wise

    I stick to ASOIAF proper (like most readers) and have only done a very spotty read of TWOIAF (got it mainly because of the pretty pictures!) From what I've picked up here and there on the forum, though, J was pretty engaged with the Westerosi which means their condition was a major influence in his decisions. Message being that this is where the strong monarch can work well because his prioritizing the condition of his people is an indirect rule by many voices. Def correct me if I have the wrong impression, though. Sansa's ending fits this message as she claims independence because it's the only thing the Northerners will accept and she eats with them, talks to them, knows their conditions, their needs, so even if Sansa ended with the trappings of the stereotypical high fantasy monarchy, that wasn't how she operated. I imagine some kings left day-to-day rule to others as there were all kinds. I'm like most people and can't be bothered to pay attention to the rl history of monarchies so I can't speak to that.
  10. Lollygag

    The problem with Bran being king narrative wise

    GRRM's world really minimizes the role of king across the board compared to other works. Aegon I was hands off. The Targs held the kingdoms together for so long because in general they were hands off with the other kingdoms basically letting them roll as they've always done. The Targs didn't place representatives in each kingdom and try to meddle. It was Aerys who really meddled with various kingdoms' inner workings and we saw a rebellion come from that. With Robert, we saw that it was the Counsel which ruled and Robert only stepped in on big things, or what he perceived to be big things like yet another tourney. In GRRM's world, it's the people who pull the strings which really hold power, not so much the kings themselves, hence Varys and LF having a drastically out-of-proportion influence on the events of the books. We see the role of counsel in Dany's arc, as well. The free-cities are often ruled as triarchs or with a more complex and realistic system of rule than the single autocratic monarch. When we look at how our society tends to portray kingship and how it should function, yeah, Bran's a weird fit. But in ASOIAF as it's actually written, Bran's being the keel of the ship and leaving the day-to-day rule to a diverse bunch of counselors fits right in. GRRM seems deeply skeptical of the autocratic monarch (Aerys, Cersei & Dany going off the rails as their counselors were lost or lesser quality) and sees rule by a number of voices to be a more solid choice.
  11. Lollygag

    Wow, I never noticed that. Vol. 18

    Why the Hound protected Sansa and Arya: Joffrey remembers. AGOT Tyrion I Tyrion Lannister reached up and slapped his nephew hard across the face. The boy's cheek began to redden. "One word," Tyrion said, "and I will hit you again." "I'm going to tell Mother!" Joffrey exclaimed. Tyrion hit him again. Now both cheeks flamed. "You tell your mother," Tyrion told him. "But first you get yourself to Lord and Lady Stark, and you fall to your knees in front of them, and you tell them how very sorry you are, and that you are at their service if there is the slightest thing you can do for them or theirs in this desperate hour, and that all your prayers go with them. Do you understand? Do you?" The boy looked as though he was going to cry. Instead, he managed a weak nod. Then he turned and fled headlong from the yard, holding his cheek. Tyrion watched him run. A shadow fell across his face. He turned to find Clegane looming overhead like a cliff. His soot-dark armor seemed to blot out the sun. He had lowered the visor on his helm. It was fashioned in the likeness of a snarling black hound, fearsome to behold, but Tyrion had always thought it a great improvement over Clegane's hideously burned face. "The prince will remember that, little lord," the Hound warned him. The helm turned his laugh into a hollow rumble. ---------- AGOT Sansa I Then a grey blur flashed past her, and suddenly Nymeria was there, leaping, jaws closing around Joffrey's sword arm. The steel fell from his fingers as the wolf knocked him off his feet, and they rolled in the grass, the wolf snarling and ripping at him, the prince shrieking in pain. "Get it off," he screamed. "Get it off!" Arya's voice cracked like a whip. "Nymeria!" The direwolf let go of Joffrey and moved to Arya's side. The prince lay in the grass, whimpering, cradling his mangled arm. His shirt was soaked in blood. Arya said, "She didn't hurt you … much." She picked up Lion's Tooth where it had fallen, and stood over him, holding the sword with both hands. Joffrey made a scared whimpery sound as he looked up at her. "No," he said, "don't hurt me. I'll tell my mother." "You leave him alone!" Sansa screamed at her sister. Arya whirled and heaved the sword into the air, putting her whole body into the throw. The blue steel flashed in the sun as the sword spun out over the river. It hit the water and vanished with a splash. Joffrey moaned. Arya ran off to her horse, Nymeria loping at her heels. After they had gone, Sansa went to Prince Joffrey. His eyes were closed in pain, his breath ragged. Sansa knelt beside him. "Joffrey," she sobbed. "Oh, look what they did, look what they did. My poor prince. Don't be afraid. I'll ride to the holdfast and bring help for you." Tenderly she reached out and brushed back his soft blond hair. His eyes snapped open and looked at her, and there was nothing but loathing there, nothing but the vilest contempt. "Then go," he spit at her. "And don't touch me." ------------- When the Hound realizes he's met Arya and she's alive, the first place his mind goes is to how she ticked off Joff. ASOS Arya VI The Hound answered. "Seven hells. The little sister. The brat who tossed Joff's pretty sword in the river." He gave a bark of laughter. "Don't you know you're dead?" "No, you're dead," she threw back at him. -------------- ACOK Sansa IV (Cersei speaking) "Joffrey will show you no such devotion, I fear. You could thank your sister for that, if she weren't dead. He's never been able to forget that day on the Trident when you saw her shame him, so he shames you in turn. You're stronger than you seem, though. I expect you'll survive a bit of humiliation. I did. You may never love the king, but you'll love his children." It's no coincidence that Arya and the Hound part ways in the same chapter where they find out Joff's dead.
  12. Lollygag

    Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

    Bran as Plato's Philosopher King I will say that while the show shoe-horned in Bran as King, he's a great fit thematically for the books. I'm not sure that GRRM is pushing the Philosopher King as an ideal ruler as his m.o. is treat things more grey, present pros and cons, and instill debate among the characters and readers. But perhaps Bran who understands history better than any becomes king to break the wheel of history repeating itself through knowledge of history finally allowing Westeros to progress. https://www.inverse.com/article/56007-game-of-thrones-finale-plato-reference-tyrion-bran-philosopher-king Forgotten History - A massive point in the books is how history is forgotten and it's explored in multiple ways. The wildlings are more closely linked to old ways and they tell Jon that he knows nothing. The Starks follow traditions without knowing why, and there's hints at other things they've forgotten entirely. The Royces can't get their runes right. The Isle of the Faces and the Pact are important, but no one can say why anymore. Singers tell of historical events, but in an effort to tell a good story, the actual events are lost. GRRM's in-world histories are filled with what they've forgotten. biases, guesses, etc. Those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it. Westeros has been stagnated in their Medieval period for thousands of years. Checked that box. The books are filled with parallels upon parallels of the current events which mirror past events in a repeat of history. And we're getting ready to repeat the Long Night because of what we've forgotten. In Westeros, forgetting history and its lessons can have grave consequences which can't be overstated. [Insert STEM rant here.] Enter Bran, the holder of the most complete accounting of history available. Arya sailed for "America", Bran was dressed in Renaissance-influenced clothing at the end, and Tyrion argued to "elect" Bran for his "stories" as D&D eloquently called it (ugh), but it would have been more accurate to say he was chosen for his knowledge - another Renaissancey idea. Under Bran, Westeros will finally no longer be doomed to repeat their history and they can now begin to leave their Medieval period, or the un-pc term, their Dark Ages. The show underscored the importance of Bran in Brienne's writings on Jaime's deeds. In her affection for him which is a bias, she records that he killed Aerys without mentioning that he did so to save the city, and he died saving his queen, not mentioning which queen or the context of either. Sam writes a work titled ASOIAF, but he neglects to mention Tyrion. Both forgotten history. The idea of the philosopher king prioritizes knowledge and experience as the best qualifier for a ruler over random luck-of-the-draw birth or rule by uneducated masses. Plato compares society to the mutinous crew of a ship who fight with each other to become captain despite none of them having knowledge of navigation (heh - The Game of Thrones). They dismiss the captain's ability to navigate as useless star-gazing (again heh, Bran). An idea like this is already recognizable in the books as this is how Aegon was trained, so some version of this idea is already at work in the series and it's escalated for Bran as one of the most important points the idea of the philosopher king makes is that rulers be free of conflicting interests, biases, and promoting the self. Along with the philosopher king, we have Plato's cave, also from The Republic. According to this, all men live in a dark cave facing a wall. Their entire understanding of the world is created as shadows on wall created by puppeteers. In ASOIAF/GoT we have Varys the mummer/puppeteer who says power lies where men think it lies. The shadows are cast by a fire behind the men and this reminds me of Mel who says that without light, there can be no shadows which puts R'llhor into the same category as Varys/LF. There may be more aspects, because these cast shadows on the wall of the cave that we understand to be reality are the creation of powerful people, religion, culture, tradition, the people who have influenced us, etc. At one point, the cave dweller (us) must turn around to look into the fire behind us to see the source of what we think to be our understanding of the world, and to finally turn our eyes to the sun and leave the cave and its cast shadows (our culture and experience which dictates our understanding of the world) behind. So Bran will have to leave the cave. ADWD Bran III "A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."
  13. Lollygag

    Who will be Lord Commander after Jeor and Jon were killed by mutiny?

    Bold 1: I didn't say that and neither did the text. Don't hack my posts so you can mischaracterize them. Jon says in the books that they are capable of some work, not as you warped to "aren't useful at all". Read it again. If you don't like it, take it up with GRRM. Here's the paragraph just before that one: ADWD Jon VI Cotter Pyke's galleys were reporting ever-increasing numbers of free folk along the wooded shores to the north and east of the Wall. Camps had been seen, half-built rafts, even the hull of a broken cog that someone had begun repairing. The wildlings always vanished into the woods when seen, no doubt to reemerge as soon as Pyke's ships had passed. Meanwhile, Ser Denys Mallister was still seeing fires in the night north of the Gorge. Both commanders were asking for more men. Bold 2: I'm not mistaking it with approval, it's a lesser of the evils for them. That's a gross oversimplification of the situation. If you read the carefully, you'll notice that Pyke and Mallister aren't happy with them being there. But needing people on the Wall and having wildlings on the their side of the Wall as opposed to attacking the Wall either as humans or wights is the preferable situation. I won't read any more posts where you hack my words with the intent of intellectual dishonesty and when you knowingly mischaracterize the text to suit your fan fiction.
  14. Lollygag

    Who will be Lord Commander after Jeor and Jon were killed by mutiny?

    Let's look at the books for Mallister's view of the wildlings rather than just guessing. ADWD Jon VI And where am I to get more men? Jon had sent ten of the Mole's Town wildlings to each of them: green boys, old men, some wounded and infirm, but all capable of doing work of one sort or another. Far from being pleased, Pyke and Mallister had both written back to complain. "When I asked for men, I had in mind men of the Night's Watch, trained and disciplined, whose loyalty I should never have reason to doubt," wrote Ser Denys. Cotter Pyke was blunter. "I could hang them from the Wall as a warning to other wildlings to stay away, but I don't see any other use for them," Maester Harmune wrote for him. "I wouldn't trust such to clean my chamber pot, and ten is not enough." Mallister and Pyke complain first about the wildlings not being useful enough, and their loyalty is mentioned second. They're both extremely desperate for men and neither reject them and send them back.
  15. Lollygag

    Who will be Lord Commander after Jeor and Jon were killed by mutiny?

    Comparing the last time a LC was killed in mutiny by his own men. GRRM knows how to write this believably with realistic reactions from his characters in this world. If anyone saw, why not write it this way the second time with Jon as it's more realistic and doesn't require brain pretzeling to explain? ASOS Samwell II There are no laws beyond the Wall, old man. Remember?" Dirk grabbed one of Craster's wives by the arm, and shoved the point of his bloody dirk up under her chin. "Show us where he keeps the food, or you'll get the same as he did, woman." "Unhand her." Mormont took a step. "I'll have your head for this, you—" Garth of Greenaway blocked his path, and Ollo Lophand yanked him back. They both had blades in hand. "Hold your tongue," Ollo warned. Instead the Lord Commander grabbed for his dagger. Ollo had only one hand, but that was quick. He twisted free of the old man's grasp, shoved the knife into Mormont's belly, and yanked it out again, all red. And then the world went mad. Later, much later, Sam found himself sitting crosslegged on the floor, with Mormont's head in his lap. He did not remember how they'd gotten there, or much of anything else that had happened after the Old Bear was stabbed. Garth of Greenaway had killed Garth of Oldtown, he recalled, but not why. Rolley of Sisterton had fallen from the loft and broken his neck after climbing the ladder to have a taste of Craster's wives. Grenn . . . Grenn had shouted and slapped him, and then he'd run away with Giant and Dolorous Edd and some others. Craster still sprawled across Ser Byam, but the wounded knight no longer moaned. Four men in black sat on the bench eating chunks of burned horsemeat while Ollo coupled with a weeping woman on the table. The NW saw the attack. They joined in right away no hesitation, some to help Mormont, some to try to finish the job. And then the world went mad.
  16. Lollygag

    Who will be Lord Commander after Jeor and Jon were killed by mutiny?

    The LC getting stabbed by the NW isn't shocking anymore. Jeor got killed by mutiny in the NW which is how Jon got the job. Mel warned him that he was in danger. People glared at him and thought he'd gone wildling, was hooking up with Mel, traitor, traitor's bastard, breaking his vows with Stannis, he was some demon warg with the "mark of the beast" on him, just announced he was breaking his vows leading wildlings to take Winterfell and giving a wildling command of the NW to go to Hardhome, more. No, it shouldn't surprise anyone that Jon would be getting stabbed. Just the readers who assumed he had plot armor. And this isn't modern society where they would be shocked by that sort of thing. We have a bunch of people who all severely distrust each other at best and threaten rape, murder and burn each other alive at worst. That anyone is stabbing anyone is expected. It's a deeply violent society and it's all they know. It takes massive spectacles like giants whom they thought extinct just days ago bashing the queen's knight to pulp at Castle Black of all places to shock them. His ears still work. And if you read the passage above, Jon was close to people who weren't paying attention to him despite Jon trying to control them, which means people were very close by yet no one helped or joined in and Jon isn't wondering wtf at people standing around just watching him get stabbed to death like a bunch of mouth breathers. I don't agree that this is a suicide mission. It was committed during a massive distraction. Bowen Marsh is killing Jon because he wants certain things to happen, and if he's dead, there's less of a chance that these will happen and Marsh is in a position to do that as Jon's #2 and likely candidate for the next LC. For the Watch. He can't do anything if he's dead, too and his supporters are routed out. See below for the support that Marsh personally has. ADWD Jon IV No. You would close our gates forever and seal them up with stone and ice. Half of Castle Black agreed with the Lord Steward's views, he knew. The other half heaped scorn on them. "Seal our gates and plant your fat black arses on the Wall, aye, and the free folk'll come swarming o'er the Bridge o' Skulls or through some gate you thought you'd sealed five hundred years ago," the old forester Dywen had declared loudly over supper, two nights past. "We don't have the men to watch a hundred leagues o' Wall. Tormund Giantsbutt and the bloody Weeper knows it too. Ever see a duck frozen in a pond, with his feet in the ice? It works the same for crows." Most rangers echoed Dywen, whilst the stewards and builders inclined toward Bowen Marsh. Blood loss is another assumption. It doesn't add up. AGOT Sansa VI "Here, girl." Sandor Clegane knelt before her, between her and Joffrey. With a delicacy surprising in such a big man, he dabbed at the blood welling from her broken lip. ADWD Jon XIII … away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. "Why?" "For the Watch." Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard. Note: Jon's been scuffling with Robb since they could walk. Jon knows what a bad wound is and one he doesn't need to worry about. He knows about the problems with neck wounds because that's a great area to hit to incapacitate an opponent. Jon sees the blood from his neck and doesn't show any worry in the slightest. He knows the difference between a barely grazing cut and a substantial cut. He doesn't think he has only a brief time before blood loss hits. He doesn't report blood spurting from his neck, running down his neck, his clothes getting wet with blood. We're only told that his fingers are damp. And if one is taking the position that Jon is wrong about the barely grazing part, then he should adjust his estimation of his wound if he saw or felt a bunch of blood. But he doesn't. He sees as much blood as he expects from a barely grazing cut. After the neck wound, Jon does a fancy pants move on Wick's wrist to disarm him. We found out with Jon's hand injury that he's super right-handed with no ambidexterity at all (like Jaime), so he uses his right hand for this. He's suffering no effects at all from the wound on his neck. Seconds later, Jon is disoriented. Wick who is skinny as a spear, Wick whose very name sounds skinny, Wick who is gangly. GRRM repeats what's important. Longclaw's hilt is probably not so different in size from Wick's wrist. We're supposed to compare how Jon handled Wick's wrist and manhandled him with a fancy move and just a second or so later, can't handle his sword hilt of nearly the same size. He goes down too suddenly and too sharply (a few seconds) for blood loss that he's not worried about in the slightest. Jon assumes his hand has gone stiff as it will sometimes, but it wasn't stiff or weak in the slightest a second ago. Poison on the blade makes more sense especially for a steward trying to go up against a competent swordsman. Wick is skinny as a spear....That seemed to amuse him. "Has someone made a song about Gregor Clegane dying of a poisoned spear thrust? Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it. Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold … Bowen Marsh is standing there stabbing Jon completely unimpeded, with time to feel the impact of his emotions (tears) and to explain to Jon why. Then there's time for another knife. There's just nothing at all about witnesses. Based on the lack of intervention of any type at all, Marsh & Co melt back into the crowd.
  17. Lollygag

    Who will be Lord Commander after Jeor and Jon were killed by mutiny?

    You're assuming the screaming was about the attack when there was Wun Wun ripping up Patrek going on with a freaked out huge crowd of folks who hate each other who are about to break out into a fight Outsiders-style at any time on a good day. A fight's about to break out - see how Jon is worried about the Queen's men and folks have their blades out. It makes more sense that the screaming is about the potential fight Jon worried about in the immediately preceding paragraph to the start of the attack. The rest just goes against how these things normally go. Yes, it matters a lot if others join in either way. It's bad writing to have people see and make the witness(es) thing a big deal in the next book as a way to resolve a huge cliffhanger and not put in there why no one joins or helps. "Let him go," Jon shouted. "Wun Wun, let him go." Wun Wun did not hear or did not understand. The giant was bleeding himself, with sword cuts on his belly and his arm. He swung the dead knight against the grey stone of the tower, again and again and again, until the man's head was red and pulpy as a summer melon. The knight's cloak flapped in the cold air. Of white wool it had been, bordered in cloth-of-silver and patterned with blue stars. Blood and bone were flying everywhere. Men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen's men … "Form a line," Jon Snow commanded them. "Keep them back. Everyone, but especially the queen's men." The dead man was Ser Patrek of King's Mountain; his head was largely gone, but his heraldry was as distinctive as his face. Jon did not want to risk Ser Malegorn or Ser Brus or any of the queen's other knights trying to avenge him. Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun howled again and gave Ser Patrek's other arm a twist and pull. It tore loose from his shoulder with a spray of bright red blood. Like a child pulling petals off a daisy, thought Jon. "Leathers, talk to him, calm him. The Old Tongue, he understands the Old Tongue. Keep back, the rest of you. Put away your steel, we're scaring him." Couldn't they see the giant had been cut? Jon had to put an end to this or more men would die. They had no idea of Wun Wun's strength. A horn, I need a horn. He saw the glint of steel, turned toward it. "No blades!" he screamed. "Wick, put that knife …" A few things: Jon thinks Wun Wun should hear him, but he doesn't. Jon's running around trying to get control of the situation and he's being ignored. The spectacle is too big. He needs a horn for people to pay attention. No one responds to him and he's frantic. A lot of people have their blades out and are defensive, making Wick and Marsh blend in. Jon notes that they don't see Wun Wun getting cut even though they're hyper focused on him. Kinda weird, eh, as Jon gets cut next. Wun Wun just howled and tore Patrek's arm off in a splay of gore. What's he gonna do next? Stomp into the crowd, go after more people when he's done? They're in fight or flight mode and Wun Wun is the threat. We're getting a reason why no one pays attention to Jon despite him running about like a chicken with its head cut off trying to get control of the situation. Jon is actually near a lot of people as he's trying to get control of them, talk to them, which makes them seeing and not intervening or joining that much weirder if they did see what happened. Adding: Jon actually *screams* to Wick in the crowd to put away the knife and apparently no one heard or paid attention as no one intervened.
  18. Lollygag

    Who will be Lord Commander after Jeor and Jon were killed by mutiny?

    If you're referring to me, again crowd =/= witnesses to a specific event especially as nothing in the text indicates any witnesses. Show me something solid without assumptions.
  19. Lollygag

    Why didn't Jon simply refuse to accept banishment?

    Thing is that Jon's punishment isn't tied to his NW oath. Tyrion said his punishment was those three things very specifically (no land, no wife, no children), not taking the NW oath which I guess wouldn't exist anymore. This is the NW oath, and with no more Others, it doesn't really make sense anymore. Nothing left to watch. "Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow," they recited, their voices filling the twilit grove. "Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come." And the reasons for Jon not to do those three things are important in principle: Jon is Aegon, the last Targ and people will use him for the throne. He can't hold lands as that's a step in that direction. He also can't take a wife or have kids. More Targs running about means more wars. Especially with a dragon out there and given that Targs get kinda obsessive about them. Bad, bad idea.
  20. Lollygag

    Who will be Lord Commander after Jeor and Jon were killed by mutiny?

    I'm picturing Bowen Marsh combined with David Bowie now and wow, that's weird! Don't know that Wick (or Marsh) didn't turn around. If someone's attacking you, you watch them very, very closely. Especially as them looking around implies they suspect something impacting the fight one way or another. Do what you want, but I rarely buy into ideas that string together so many maybes. If there were these huge game-changer events that Jon/Wick/Marsh didn't notice just because GRRM wanted to pull a gotcha! moment on the reader, and one which goes against basic human nature and instincts, I'd be ticked. And it's just not his style. I'm sticking with what's on the page.
  21. Lollygag

    Why didn't Jon simply refuse to accept banishment?

    Tyrion said Jon's punishment was to hold no lands, take no wife and father no children. So living with the freefolk and doing stuff north of the Wall for the NW (whatever the hell that is anymore) doesn't conflict with his punishment so long as he doesn't do any of those three things. And emo show Jon def feels he needs to be punished. No, I don't think anyone would actually care that much if Jon broke his oaths, but they wrote Jon to be fixated on oaths to the point of absurdity and gave him guilt over what he did and we all know how show Jon rocks emo guilt like no one else.
  22. Lollygag

    Who will be Lord Commander after Jeor and Jon were killed by mutiny?

    I just don't buy it. Why would they scream, but Jon, Wick and Marsh don't even look that way to see if it's help or hinderance? No one joins or intervenes. Not one. For either side. Sorry to repeat myself so much, but people keep ignoring this. This is what looks normal especially with a crowd of hyped up men. A fight starts, people see, and they jump right in no hesitation to help their respective sides.
  23. Lollygag

    Why didn't Jon simply refuse to accept banishment?

    On Jon deserting for the wildlings: Oaths: The show pushed the Ned parallel hardcore in season 8. Dany murdered a million innocent men, women, children and babies for the hell of it, and Jon *still* wouldn't break his oath to her. Show Jon isn't breaking another oath unless it's for an absolutely huge reason. Kneeling: Jon kneeled to Dany when he knew no one wanted that. They were very clear about that before he left. And he kneeled for no reason whatsoever. "She's muh queen" said on repeat despite the horrors that resulted is not what a wildling would ever, ever, ever say. Ever. King Beyond the Wall: How many times does he have to say he doesn't want to be king before people actually believe him? Guilt & Punishment: Jon feels conflicted over killing Dany and accepting punishment is the only way emo show Jon can reconcile what he did. Many think Benjen joined the NW for guilt also - speculated to be for his role at Harrenhal leading to the whole mess that resulted from that making Jon a parallel for him. It also makes the whole Nissa Nissa sacrifice thing meaningless if Jon moves on like he did with Ygritte and goes on to find love again and a happy life. The ending montage where Jon puts on the black of the NW makes no sense at all if he just turns around and deserts. That's like Arya deciding to go back to Westeros right after the montage or Sansa changing her mind about being separate a short time later. If Jon was to go live as a freefolk in the end or as King Beyond the Wall, they needed to do a 180 in writing him the last few seasons to make that work.
  24. Lollygag

    Ask D&D

    No. Why do you ask? If you were so overwhelmed and overextended, why didn't you delegate writing duties to other writers who would have loved the job? Or why didn't you just resign from the show altogether and pass the reigns to others? Did you intend Cersei to be a parallel to yourselves? Is that why you love her? Have everything start to fall apart, run everyone off, crash it into the ground, refuse to leave when faced with dragons (critics and fans), and then have your house of cards fall on your heads in the end after it was too late? Which one of you is Jaime and which is Cersei? Edit: missed the game part.
  25. Oh, absolutely and her end being a Joff parallel makes her more tragic. That's the nice thing about parallels: they also highlight the differences which are just as important.
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