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About Bobity.

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  1. When the ancient Danes arrived at now Starfall from places far tracking the path of a fallen star, I don’t think they were alone. Before the arrival of the Andals and Nymeria Dorne was largely in two halves, the Sandy east along the Greenblood river/Eastern shores and the Stony mountainous west. Between them an intimidating desert. Andals came and populated the edges of the central desert at Sandstone, Hellhot and The Tor. Later Nymeria co-opted the Sandy east with an Andal Martell and introduced the Salty Dornish. With an ancient history of being seperated, throw in distinctive looks and I think it's safe to make an argument that the Sandy and Stony Dornish “First Men” peoples have little in common, either genetic or cultural. The only connection is that they both live in Dorne. The earliest power structure recorded for the Stony Dornish was of three principal regional rulers with the Yornwoods being the strongest, meaning they were probably the most brutal. High Kings of Dorne AKA Bloodroyal - Yronwood Kings of Stone and Sky - Fowler Kings of the Torrentine - Dayne Among those ancient kingdoms were the following prominent houses: House Wyl of the Boneway with the Yronwoods House Manwoody of Kingsgrave with the Fowlers House Blackmont of Blackmont with the Daynes The list strongly overlaps with the six kings Nymeria systematically overwhelmed and sent to the Wall, which I suspect were all “First Men” Stony Dornish and not Andals. Can’t say for sure regarding House Dryland of Hellgate, as Lucifer was the last of his line, though I suspect they were Stony. The commonality in hair and eye colors are reinforced throughout the books, though the Daynes are more unique. Danye Yronwood Fowler Stony Dornish Culture From the earliest history of the Stony Dornish, they have been fighting and resisting. Ancient history has them perpetually battling those loyal to Storm's End over the Dornish Marches and they were unique in the region for not becoming vassals to invading Andals or forced into marriages. The Stony Dornish lords aggressively resisted Nymeria/Martell for 11 years before being overtaken. While the resistance to the Targaryens after the Conquest was a unified Dornish response, much of the heavy fighting was done in the mountains. Always fighting.... Is this consistent aggressive behaviour just a matter of culture, or could there be an influence at play? Sacrifices in the Red Mountains I believe that sacrifices are a key element for magical capabilities including blood magic, shadowbinding and infusing animal affinity genetics within a blood line. I have a unfinished post on the matter, but for now I just want to lay out the examples of non lethal blood sacrifices among the Stony Dornish. Chopping up people into pieces, yeah, that sounds like blood sacrifice. Wyl of Wyl I see parallels between Wyl of Wyl and Vargo Holt the “Crippler”. Remember, Vargo wore a goat helm, was from Qohor and chopped off hands when given the opportunity. I would suggest he was among the “faithful” of his home city. Benedict Blackmont While I am not sold on polymorphing, I think that Blackmont worship of a dark vulture god is legit. With dark god worship comes sacrifices, which I believe the Blackmonts are quite up front about in their heraldry. Infant sacrifices has been referenced beyond Craster, often framed as a decision in desperation. I believe that the innocence of the victim bears weight in the sacrifice. Vulture Kings The Vulture King is a title applied to two separate Dornish strongmen who had rebelled against the crown, during the reigns of Anys l and Daeron ll. Both from the Red Mountains, exact identifies unknown, but within the realm of the Stony Dornish. We know little more of the Vulture King Lord Caron had faced, but now have more on the uprising against Anys l, thanks to The Sons of the Dragon. What if these two Vulture King figure historical accounts are part of a larger pattern? In later centuries, several other men would take the title “Vulture King,” but whether they were of the same blood as the first, no man can say - The Sons of the Dragon GRRM has confirmed some Vulture King background through SSM, its mountain origins and pattern of reoccurrence among different families. I believe that these Vulture King events were more common throughout history. The vulture influence may not have been obvious from the perspective of the defender. What inspired people to join Samwell, Ferris, Yoren and Wyla to mount these campaigns? We only have one account of a Vulture King army, and it was best described as a stinking rabble. Sounds like a mob drawn to a religious figure, not unlike Dany. Notice the Vulture connection to Walter Wyl, who’s father, Wyl of Wyl liked chopping off hands. We also see examples of deliberate mutilating blood sacrifices from the Vulture King himself. What is behind the Vulture King phenomenon? I believe an “Old Ones” or demon in the aspect of a vulture has faithful among the Stony Dornish of the Red Mountains. Maybe it's connected to the Vultures Roost, the ruin first added on the AFFC South map, but never mentioned in text. Or maybe a cave system exists within the Red Mountains, they seem to be everywhere and connected to ancient history. I see a similarity between the recurrence of the Vulture King and the history of Leng in the Jade Sea. Where Old Ones convinced the rulers to kill all foreigners on several occasions throughout history. The Leng Old Ones influence spanned generations, much like the pattern of historically combative Stony Dornish with periodic Vulture King figures. The Danes history places them as distant travellers following a fallen star back in the Dawn Age, back when the GEOTD was a power in the Jade sea. I believe that a fully populated Asshai was at least part of the GEOTD, if so, the city would have filled the same role that it does in the books, spreading the knowledge and practice of magic through sacrifice. The Danes history is woven within the Stony Dornish, I believe where came the Danes followed the Stony Dornish. The migrants appeared to be inclined towards sacrificial demon worship, settled in the Red Mountains and started to fight. How does this relate to the books? If we are looking for examples of Stony Dornish starting fights…. I wonder if Georld actually wanted to kill Myrcella, or if facial mutilation was his true aim? It's kings blood flowing through Myrcella’s veins after all, I wonder what return Darkstar will get for that blood sacrifice? Why the Aero Hotah POV? Norvos is a city founded by a splinter group of people from Valyria who felt the Freehold was too religiously tolerant, same as their friends from Qohor. They have a god with a secret name which works directly through its priests and considers the Black Goat to be a “vile and treacherous“ demon, almost as if it were a competitor. Areo Hotah is from Norvos and was trained by the bearded priests, so would be aware of the nature of his home religion, though his loyalty has shifted completely to Doran Martell. The Hotah POV is following Darkstar into the Red Mountains whose Stony Dorish have a vast history of fighting, but have ironically sat idle as Westeros erupted in war. If a new Vulture King is amassing in secret, fueled by a vulture Demon/Old Ones/Old God the Hotah POV may reveal it, and with Hotah comes personal POV experience and context about demon gods, being a former student of the bearded priests of Norvos. Many have been perplexed by the purpose of the Hotah POV, I believe that it's a tool for an eventual reveal on the nature of demons and sacrifice. Doran has a strong grip on the nobility of Dorne, but previous Vulture Kings seem to have found influence and followers outside of the nobility structure. Princess Deria Martell had initially denounced the Vulture King, suggesting peace instead. I feel that Doran will have the same lack of influence if a new Vulture King appears.
  2. Bobity.

    Unpopular Opinions?

    Here you go
  3. Bobity.

    Errors in the WOIAF

    Which is it, did Valyrian dragonlord sightings above Blackwater Bay become more frequent as time passed....or did the dragonlords feel that their outpost was secure and returned to Essos to scheme? Seems to be a contradiction. Change "more" to "less" in the first sentence and the second sentence makes more sense.
  4. Bobity.

    Unpopular Opinions?

    Hardhome is not volcanic. The scorched trees and fire seen from the Wall 600 years ago was dragon support for a Valyrian slaving operation, who had just started setting up shop on Dragonstone. However....the theory that Hardhome event was volcanic is passionately defended.
  5. Bobity.

    Slavers raid beyond the wall?

    Because its beyond the Wall and among the Free Folk, its slaving without political consequence. Among Free Folk, there is no consistent high noble caste to be upset about their peoples enslavement and organize to defend themselves. The Starks pacified Skagos, but their influence ends at the Wall. Free Folk shun organizing, so they will always be easy pickings for slavers.
  6. Bobity.

    did the targs breed with dragons?

    I fail to see how Valyrians could have bred dragons, when the basics are inconclusive. Considering the scholarly debate and the only determination of a dragon's sex was based on if they laid eggs. Dragon sexualtiy was also a much researched topic by Egg, though his obsession was on the hatching problem. Fertility of dragons is a mute point with no dragons. (Perhaps a young maester Marwyn had been sent by Aegon V?) While Ageon V and recent maesters would have been disadvantaged by not having live dragons to observe, Septon Barth’s opportunity to observe dragons would have been limitless, being Hand during the reign of Jaehareys l, the high point of Westerosi dragon population. Having such divergent views on a matter that could be reasonably explained by observing dragon sex, leads me to believe that no maester have seen dragons mating. I believe that Maester Aemon was correct in reinterpreting Septon Barth’s work that dragons are potentially genderless, or could change their genders. This is an excerpt of a larger post I did on the subject.
  7. Bobity.

    Octarchy of Old Ghis

    Interesting catch!! I agree with @elder brother jonothor dar that it is possibly from the distant past. While I don't see any relation to the seven, or have an opinion on the origins of 8, it does point to an ancient form of representative based government, vs the more current monarchy based dictatorship included within the title. I personally believe that Valyria was a colony of the GEOTD, and emerged as a force after the wars with Old Ghis in the power vacuum of the post Long Night. However, by that logic Old Ghis would have also been a culture before the Long Night and was potentially influenced by the GEOTD. If Old Ghis was governed by a 8 member council, them the ancient democratic traditions of the Valyrian Freehold may have been a norm for the region prior to the Long Night.
  8. While the FM may bestow the gift upon others, followers of the faith do give it to themselves, fully documented through Arya's POV in the temple with the poisoned well. In fact, if sacrifices are the currency of magical capability, the continuous self sacrifice in the temple could be the source of FM's face changing abilities.
  9. Which could have also been a hidden driver for a steady influx of slaves to sacrifice through fatal hard labor. One thought that I have been toying with is that the slaves got wise to the situation, and performed the "Gift" en mass like a wide scale suicide pact, resulting in a sacrifice overload which triggered the Doom. This is based on the kindly man's cryptic reference to Arya that the followers of the many faced gods had caused the Doom.
  10. Just wanted to propose a variation of this theory. I am on board with the GEOTD being dragonlords and that they probably hung out around volcanoes because dragons tend to do better there, as evidence with the Valyirans in Vlayria and the Targs at Dragonstone. While I would not dispute that Asshai has potential volcanic elements, (it does have a river named Ash) there is actually another volcanic candidate right in the middle of the Jade Sea. Marahai. Check it out on a map, the island configuration is a classic volcanic caldera, and judging by the description, extremely active. I don't know if GRRM was deliberate in its cartographic size, but its big....like really big, bigger than Yellowstone big. Calderas have a cycle, a gradual build up of lava rock and an eventual BOOM when the mass blocks too much pressure, then it starts the cycle again. Krakatoa is a familiar example. If the GEOTD and their dragons had been based on Marahai during its last eruption, well, all evidence of them would have been decimated. Also, the Jade Sea coast would have been pummeled with a tsunami, including Asshai. Furthermore, large caldera eruptions can create events called volcanic winters when too much ash blocks the sun, and the Long Night does correspond with the end and disappearance of the GEOTD. Admittedly it's a lot of tin foil based on 23 words and the shape of islands on a map, but by putting those two details together GRRM did create a repeating massive bomb with a long fuse in the middle of the Jade Sea.
  11. Bobity.

    Dragonstone mysteries

    As for the Sept, I don't recall any descriptions of the Dragonstone sept beyond the wooden statues. My thoughts are that the Targs repurposed an existing space after adopting the faith. After you remove and burn the statues and prohibit praying, the space becomes the former sept. If the sept was described with seven walls with seven windows, or some other faith inspired architecture, then I think you would be onto something. While I am not going to dispute the inclusion of the word exile from a maesters book title describing the Targs, a more fulsome explanation does point to prophetic dreams of the Doom as the reason they left. The fact that their rivals viewed their departure as cowardice implies free choice, not imposed exile. My question is, why would moving to (or exiled) Dragonstone be viewed as cowardly (or punishment) by their noble rivals? Considering the Valyrians must of spent considerable effort in creating a magnificent castle with towers shaped as dragons and 1,000 unique twelve foot statues as crenulations less than 200 years prior....they did not hold the place in high regard.
  12. Bobity.

    Rarity of gargoyle architecture

    Thanks!! I admit that I started this post with just the gargoyle observation that got my "Valryians did not build Dragonstone" theory started, free of tinfoil. Was curious to see how others would puzzle over it, and if they would dive down the same rabbit hole I did. While we don't know exactly what was happening in Andalos after they migrated to Westeros, after the Doom the Dothraki seemed to pride themselves in tearing apart former civilizations.
  13. Bobity.

    Rarity of gargoyle architecture

    Regarding the strength of fused stone: and Regarding the fused stone nature of Dragonstone: Even the courtyard was fused:
  14. Bobity.

    Rarity of gargoyle architecture

    Agreed They were included on the WOIAF Valyrian artwork, and Nasmith has received direction from GRRM in his art. Agreed, GRRM does make a close connection between gargoyles and grotesques through Davos. Even after Cressen had identified all 1,000 dragonstone statutes/merlons as gargoyles, Davos mixes them up. I am unsure if GRRM ever intended for the architectural style to have a drainage purpose as is the case in real history. I have tinfoil theories that they held a stronger spiritual significance to their builders, but they are still half baked. Also, based on the interpretation by Davos, I would classify the gate at the Valyrian built Long Bridge as being grotesque/gargoyle, even without direct mentioning.
  15. Here are the only three structures identified as having gargoyle architecture I can find. Winterfell First Keep Dragonstone Castle Weathered inn at Dragonstone port Both First Keep and weatherd inn gargoyles have similar descriptions of physical weathering, the fused stone gargoyles of Dragonstone are immune to weathering. Thoughts?