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Unchained

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  1. Hey @PrettyPig nice essay. Must be a popular topic I'm almost done with one on a similar subject. The best thing I found so far was on grumkins. They grant wishes and take children. It's never said outright that they do one in exchange for the other, but that is how I am reading it. Tyrion saves Cersei from the Baratheons like she asked Tywin to do. Then everyone thinks Tyrion kills Joffrey. I think that counts as Tyrion acting like a grumkin granting a wish, then taking a prince. He admits to Jon that he looks like a grumkin. It's like in Rumpelstiltskin. As Sansa is escaping she even wonders if Tyrion killed Joffrey because she wished for it and then thinks of grumkins granting wishes. Catelyn prays to the 7 to spare the combatants that would have died at the battle at Storm's End had it happened. At the end of the chapter after Renly is killed and her wish is granted, Robb's death is foreshadowed when she remembers Stannis' threat that Robb's day will come as well. At the Red Wedding, at the first sign of trouble from the Freys, Cat reassures herself that she is only seeing "grumkins in the woodpile". So you can think of grumkins being at both Weddings killing both kings in exchange for wishes granted to both king's mothers. Like Cat says, kings are not meant to have mothers. When I finish editing I'll post it here. I can tag you if you want. RR, I think we can pinpoint the exact moment Dany can be thought of as giving up Rhaego. It's when she has the knife to her throats and yells out "my baby" right before she is saved and thinks the gods heard. I think it's comparable to Brienne yelling out "a word" the moment before her death giving up someone else to save herself.
  2. Unchained

    Six and One, Half Dozen of the Others

    And @ravenous reader That one with Jaime in the tunnels is another that I would randomly choose to be one of the most important. The 6 tunnels meeting in one place is an interesting symbol. I think LH math can sometimes be 12 as one as well as 12 and 1. The prime examples being the dragon sign at the clanking dragon inn where 12 pieces make up the dragon, and at the inn of the crossroads where Cat's men draw a dozen swords as one to capture Tyrion. One entity made up of multiple individuals is some tripy stuff to think about, but George has basically told us this is a thing with the 7 gods who are one, the many faced god, and the godhood of the old gods which is all the people who have ever enters the weirnet. Kingslaying and kinslaying are definitely one in the same in some sense, probably a clue about a kingslaying in the past where the killer and king were related. Theon is called kinslayer a lot, and he is a traitor to a NK figure in Ramsay. Theon is like one of Ramsay's dogs which I think may be like the NK's Others or maybe ice spiders as big as hounds he uses to hunt hot-blooded people. The girls are reborn as those dogs, meaning the NK built himself a house of cards so to speak based on magic enslavement where all his servants have reason to hate him. It's a powder keg that needs a fire to light the rebellion against him (can you tell I noticed the ember that lights a fire symbolism around the resistance in the last Star Wars movie?). At least that's how I see it. The NK was a tyrant, and his slaves eventually had enough. Dany's whole arc is to be this fire that causes slave rebellions. Theon is like a NK slave that is not loyal. We can be relatively sure Ramsay will die by being ripped apart by those dogs I think. Is the hidden story here one where a single NK servant rebels and the rest follow? That's what I think. I know I keep tying this back the rescue of the baby shown at the ToJ, but that is what is on my mind and that is related to this pattern I think. Theon is this rescuer, as Jeyne is a NQ figure who will turn out to be pregnant. I associate this rescuer with the King of Winter and the Grey King, assuming they are the same person. LmL tells me the rescuer is the child of the fire wife of the NK, and he is rescuing his half brother, the icy moon son. We do have a theme supporting this including Robb (KoW figure and son of fiery haired sister Cat) giving a last boon to Jon making him heir right before he dies. Theon and the Grey King are also fire moon children I think, the greenseers in the trees are like the fiery meteors falling from the dead moon. However, Dany the lighter of slave rebellions is the main fire moon child of the books. Will she likewise give an assist to Jon, the stolen NQ baby? I think we have been told she will. I am of the belief that everything said about fAegon that won't happen is something that will happen with Jon. Tyrion tells fAegon that Dany is a rescuer who will fly to his aid. This won't happen for him, but I think it will for Jon and when it does it will be a reenactment of the ToJ in a way. The aid given to the NQ baby by his rescuer.
  3. Unchained

    Six and One, Half Dozen of the Others

    That is a huge list you made @Darry Man. I'm going to focus on the ones that make the most sense to me as the best, but like always it's a little random in choosing them. First, Jaime's dream. I agree with what you pointed out earlier where it was like 6 brothers confronting 7th who is a traitor. I think that is an important theme, but it is jumbled or all together not present at some of them. Jaime is a traitor in two ways. Obviously he is the Kingslayer, but why is mentioned in this scene is his inability to protect Rhaegar's family. Aegon being killed, and the lie about him having been a stolen royal baby by Varys is a ToJ event. Jaime is the traitor brother who either allowed, or in some cases helped the NQ/NK baby be taken. Since Ned and his 6 good men was already mentioned, let's do that one next. Ned takes Jon, who either is named or plays the part of Aegon (Aragorn). Seems backwards this time, Ned and his 6 are all the baby stealing traitors. But they are opposite the Others/KGs still. We speculated that 6 and 1 may be half of a whole with the whole being the last hero + 12 against another 1. The total is 14 either way. It's almost like half go with one leader while the Other half go with anOther. It's a trial of 7 vs 7. It is at the ToJ that the dead brothers from the last example call Jaime their false brother. The traitor. Third is the one where this math is repeated 3 times. I even noticed it, but did not connect it to a larger pattern like you did. Tyrion and Janos are getting drunk, well Janos is. Being drunk can symbolize someone who is about to be initiated into the tree cult of sacrifices. The Norse would get women drunk before putting them on a boat with a dead cheifton at his fire-boat funeral and burning them together. It is also like drinking Shade before entering the HotU in Dany's case. Not to get side tracked, but her time in Qaarth is full of initiation symbolism including that her Qaartheen dress with a bare breast she wears to see the Enthroned is a copy of what initiates into the Stone Masons wear in addition to being a Nissa Nissa reference. Anyway, Janos is getting drunk and eating cheese, which LmL pointed out the importance of in his last essay with Ramsay. He gives Tyrion a list of 6 men, there's his 6 followers, 6 and 1 leader. Tyrion insults him and Janos storms to the door. He opens it to find another 6 and 1. Bywater and his 6 silent gold cloaks move up quietly and take him captive to send to the Watch. Tyrion says to throw 1 of the 7 into the sea/see on the way there giving us our 3rd 6 and 1 math in one chapter. Ok, so I connected the first two to the stealing of the important baby with Aegon and Jon playing those roles. In this case it is Barra. She is the bastard daughter with a whore/hoare for a mother and a king for a father. The reason Tyrion is angry is because Janos and Deem kill/claim Barra. The scene where Ned meets Barra and her mom has a shitload of RLJ in it including beginning at a brothel and Ned's three dead men being like the three Kingsguard with Jaime's being the larger force of Ned's. The number of dead on each side is the same. As odd as it may sound, killing the special child is the same as stealing it, like with Rhaego. I think the baby thief is a lord of the underworld in a way. This is part of Janos' punishment for baby stealing. The rest is when Jon beheads him like his fellow baby thief Ned is beheaded. Now that I think of it, Ned's execution is a good place to look for this math. I hate bring up mythical astronomy since the Devil quit and can't comment, but the comet is the baby thief, and Janos was a bloody spear for a sigil. I have more to say, but I need to check the books and sleep first. This is the first thread worth coming back to the forums for in a while. I think I said I would start a beards thread. I may do that, but it's bed time. Thanks, great topic.
  4. Unchained

    Ironborn Mythos (Pt 3): The Monomyth

    The Tattered Prince interests me a lot. An escaped prince meant for sacrifice who wants to return home with an army to take it over is what the last hero is. He was like Monster, supposed to become on Other or a member of something similar like the Order of Green Men. But he fought his fate with help. Yea, I agree his cloak is very coat of many colors-like. I think all the sellsword companies are something about the Last Hero. They are exiles wanting to go home. I can see the importance of their names, but they all seem like generic AA words blended to me. If Garth as you call him was the stormy hammer dropper, and was not the same as the Grey King, but they seem to have last hero symbols too, then what am I to make of all the storm names for example? I am still ill of the belief there were 4 total characters of importance. Dany has a spouse, brother, and unborn child seemingly sacrificed for her dragons. Euron has a spouse, brother, and unborn child strapped to the front of his ship as of the last released TWoW chapter. That's the 4. Rival brothers, a woman who they sometimes both want, and a child that is doomed before they are born. Child = Last Hero, Brothers = Garth and Grey King, Woman = all the wives in the myths, she helps the Grey King at some point, seemingly gives up the child, and not sure what else she's hard. There are so few Age of Heroes stories about women. All the ones we learn much about are men.
  5. Unchained

    Songs that Make Us Think of A Song of Ice and Fire

    I am probably not the first to figure this out, but John the Fiddler with his golden fiddle sigil is a direct reference to "The Devil went down to Georgia". In that song a man named Johnny battles the Devil for a golden fiddle, if he loses the Devil gets his soul. I took the trouble to write for your pleasure new lyrics. John the Fiddler couch your lance and ride that warhorse hard Cause hells broke loose in Whitewalls and Brynden Rivers deals the cards If you win you get this shiny crown made of gold But if you lose Bloodraven gets your soooooouuuuuulllllllll
  6. In that case, sense we are seeing things in reverse order, I think the man who is bled out to the tree is probably the man playing the role the man who is killed that the woman emerging from the pool wants to avenge. Not that those people actually knew each other, but in a sense that vision shows us some of the important events in reverse order.
  7. Coming from the water with stretch marks is like Dany coming out of the water pregnant. @LmL talks about an ice moon and a fire moon. More so than anything else his talent, at least relative to me, is avoiding being wrong, he's careful, although I disagree with him that the NQ goes to the NK for help, I think he may be the man she is forced into marrying and later betrays but my manifesto on that is above. Even he admits that he is not sure if there was actually two moons or a fiery one that turned icy with two phases. I think there is enough evidence there were two moons, but I am less sure there were two women on the ground 8,000 years ago causing the LN. Maybe there were, but based on my comparing events Cat and Lysa, a classic fire and ice sisterhood, seem to be playing the same role of the same person. Lysa is angry NQ mad about Petyr being symbolically killed and taken from her, but Cat is the one he fights over when symbolically killed. Maybe the less than pure evenstar women emerging from the pools is like the fire moon Maiden changing icy, the two phases. The archetypal woman seems most likely to me to have had a child, had it and its father taken, become icy with hatred, then gritted her teeth, married her love's killer and had his kids. Then she helps one of the kids betray her husband when she allows one to be taken to be raised and defeat him in a Zeus or Horus manner.
  8. Wait, I thought the NQ exploits her child and the huntsman or whatever you wanna call him liberates him or her. Theon is the one it has to be. She uses him to get into the crypts and bond over how they both wanted to be Starks. I think it may not have been the one who made the NQ hoary that she wants revenge against. I may have already said this, can't remember. Rather, it was the one who killed her first love, a love that was considered to have dishonored her. There are examples of the other way like you said where the woman is blamed for being raped, but on the other hand there is a conflation of adultry for love and rape, examples include the obvious Rhaegar "raping" Lyanna and Daeron the singer being accused of rape for having what he says was consensual sex with a lord's daughter (have you see bluetiger's find concerning him and a LOTR story that sounds very Last Hero like? It gives reason to suspect his story is important at least). Let's go through the list, Lysa had her son with Petyr taken and was not allowed to be with him to motivate her to turn to Petyr for help killing her husband, Petyr betrays her. Cersei never forgives Robert for killing Rhaegar, she turns to Lancel (not sure how he fits the pattern) to kill Robert. She trusts a Rhaegar lookalike who betrays her as does Lancel. Ashara was "dishonored" by a Stark. Idk what she actually does, but Arya says about the song about the woman who jumps off a tower because her prince was killed that she should have killed the men who killed her prince. Lady Dustin isn't mad at Brandon for making her hoary, she is mad at Rickard and his maester for taking him away, also at Ned for taking her husband away. She turns to the Starks most powerful servile House. Would Tysha be angry at Tyrion? If she is the Sailor's wife, she isn't because we know she longs for her husband back. Her fellow prostitute who says her husband is dead is telling us more of an archetypal clue. The NQ's first love is killed and taken from her. Only he is not really dead dead. Then she turns to this dead lover, but like the lady says, it is a bad idea. Dany breaks the world for her first love (a lover that is kinda rapey with her, she does say yes, but before... it really shows us this first love/rape conflation well). Can Cat be thought of as using her son to kill the people who killed her first love? She can be thought of as giving them up in a Rumpelstiltskin-like fashion with her prayers one of which is to summon the Renly killing shadow. Stannis does go fight her husband's murderers after that. Did I forget anyone? Assuming you buy this, would the NK be the now dead first love she turns to? Or is he the killer of the first love who claims her? I have a hard time deciding if the NK is a Little or Big Brother. I think Big and Huntsman who steals the child is like the Little Brother she turns to. Love this quote. Lysa has the Others not with her first love, but with her "legitimate" husband. That's all the evidence I have though. I think the Little Brother (the first love usually but not always) is defeated in round one and made servile, like being forced to join the Watch before betraying his master the Big Brother. That's sounds kinda like the NK was a first love the NQ turns to to birth Others to bring down her husband, the Big Brother. https://theambercompendium.wordpress.com/2017/12/05/the-advent-calendar-5th-dec-2017/ here is a link to BlueTiger's Tolkien Daeron find.
  9. @Darry Man @ravenous reader this is seems to be where hoary whores are discussed now. This may have already been said, but I just realized it. Lanna and the sailor's wife are probably Tysha and Tyrion's bastard daughter. Just realized Robert's bastard daughter with a whore is named Barra, which is the same thing done to a different name. She is at Chataya's brothel where the mother who owns the place whores out her own daughter, Alayaya, in a parallel to the Sailor's wife doing the same with her daughter. This has has something to do with the image of the NQ figure that walks out of the black water at Winterfell in Bran's retrograde dream. She wishes for a strong son to avenge her. She is whoring out her son in a way, using him for her own goals like a puppet with no concern for his own wellbeing. Dany emerges from the womb of the world in a similar way, and later whores out that baby for black magic. Anyway, that chapter where Ned sees Barra is one of @Kingmonkey's ToJ parallel scenes from the puppets of ice and fire essay. The fight that follows set up by Littlefinger between Ned and his three men, who play the Other/KG role from the ToJ when Ned mounts up it says the "others followed", and Jaime's men mirrors the ToJ where Lyanna is being whored out in some way. Jon too, he never gets his own life, only one of servitude. Ned winds up having his coma dream of the ToJ because of the very important "dolorous stroke" like leg wound he suffers there like the fisher king from Arthurian myth, which is the same mythos that a lot of pre-Bob's rebellion stuff comes from. Arthur Dayne obviously plays into that, and Lancelot's castle is called dolorous guard before being renamed joyous guard after a visit from Guinevere (maybe like queensgate got renamed?). Ned thinks about Lyanna and her promise she asked for, comparing it to Barra's mom's making Ned make a promise. Barra's mom wants Ned to tell Robert about them, Lyanna's was probably to tell Jon who he was or tell someone something. He also thinks about Rhaegar and Jon throughout that whole travel. Ned kills a guy with a "sickening crunch" to the head, which George uses as code for a moon death, Oberyn and Theon at the burning of Winterfell also get one. Jory's sword is a red rain, magic sword words. At the end Ned gets milk of the poppy, which is something like becoming an Other or going through an icy transformation I think, like slipping into a warm bath.
  10. @ravenous reader lots of food for thought here. Concerning Rhaegar's name, I do think the gar in his name is a callous to Garth. Whereas Robert is more outwardly like Garth, Rhaegar is like an inverted version. That may be why it is in the second half of his name. Whether the fish is involved as well, who knows. I do associate him as the same thing as Petyr when fighting Brandon. As you have pointed out he like a crocodile trying to drown his stronger opponent. There is a species of gar known as an alligator gar. I agree with your interpretation of the meaning of "winter is coming". LmL has said he believes the Last Hero was a child taken from the Others, who then defeated them. Rather than the Long Night being caused by someone's ambition, I have thought for awhile that is was an act of love. I think it was a case of the world needing to be destroyed because it was supported by the child sacrifice demanded by Garth. Dany is acting out this idea in Slaver's bay. Yea, it would be nice if she could just govern and fix the place, but she can't and the next best thing is to just destroy the retched place that even Hizdahr says is in need of serious reform so something new can grow. Westeros itself is quickly becoming a cesspool is need of a Ragnarok event. It may be that the betrayal and oath breaking that caused the Long Night was in fact a very just one, such as saving a child meant for the flames or ice or whatever. This would be similar to the Kingslaying Jaime is known for among other examples. The obvious story to look at would be Snow White. She is spared by the Huntsman and a heart of a pig is given in her place in some versions. The Huntsman is another version of the green man and Monster is rescued by Sam the Huntsman. Ned at the Tower of Joy I would think is playing this Huntsman. He is subservient to Robert who I think may be the hungry child-eating Garth that is betrayed by his Huntsman. Ned is I think the King of Winter here. The King of Winter and the King Beyond the Wall seem to be like the same thing as far as I can tell and they fought the Night's King. So was the Night's King the same person as Garth? The hungry god. Or did the Night's King serve the hungry God and feed him. All so confusing. It feels almost confirmed to me to me by now that the Night's Queen was made into a "whore" in some way. Was she wronged, and them turned to making Others, or does she become a 'whore' by making Others. Or both? Was Lady Dustin made into a 'whore' Brandon? The Night's Queen is said in the world book to maybe have been a lady of the barrowlands, making her possibly one of the top people to look at for NQ behavior. She dislikes the Starks, and is using the Boltons and to get revenge on them.
  11. Unchained

    Where Whores Go

    I love the idea of the "whore" in fact being the victim, at least initially. Indeed prostitutes are often the victims. Cersei is the queen of whores per Jaime, and she is raped and savaged by Robert possibly showing us the early stages of the vengeful hoary Night's queen. She needs to go through an icy transformation like other fiery women who emerge from water like Dany at the Womb of the world, the woman in Bran's vision asking for children to avenge her, and Osha at Winterfell in the same pool. Hers may be her rebirth at the ice moon of the sept of Baelor on Visenya's hill. Indeed if a KG knight she had created Robert Strong fights for her it would all come together nicely. Aegon the Unworthy had a consort whose last name was OTHERys. She had his daughter, and moved to Braavos which seems to be the #1 place whores go. She starts a line of black pearls from his king's blood. They aren't like Others but more like entrapping sirens. Braavos seems to be where Tyrion's "whore" also went after being raped to also give birth to his daughter. Tyrion and fat Aegon both share an "appreciation" for women with Robert that gets into rape at times. They make "whores".
  12. Unchained

    The Grey King, Ygg, and Nagga's living fire.

    Who is what god is pretty complicated. Crows are associated with greenseeing and are the servants of the storm god. But the Grey King is also clearly a greenseer. Of all the folks from the age of heroes, I think the Grey King is the most Azor Ahai like. I would connect him to the Red god. Although like you said, not black and white because he also has a lord of darkness and the dead feel. Storm god has fire, GK steals it, by the end both are fiery. Personally, I think the Others are akin to whatever the storm god is after a transformation of some kind, possibly after having their fire taken away. The Other in the prologue's lazy parry is a lightening bolt strike that turns Waymar's sword into a tree struck by lightening. You shouldn't limit yourself with avoiding myth. You need it to solve some of this stuff.
  13. Unchained

    POEMS (or other sundry quotes) that remind you of ASOIAF

    Hey @ravenous reader, I was reminded of something I read in school while working on some ASoIaF stuff yesterday I wanted to mention. Are you familiar with "Those who walk away from Omelas"? It is about a utopian city. It is set on the summer solstice during a celebration of the day. It turns out that the perfect society is built on a scapegoat. A child is kept in horrible conditions for unknown reasons, but it is needed so everyone else can live a happy life. Certain people "walk away" when they learn. This brings to mind the beginning of the story set in a really hot summer and the tourney of the hand occurring. Everyone's happiness is built on Dany's suffering. The story is similar to "The Tamir Triad" in which an evil usurping uncle is worried about a prophecy of being overthrown by a warrior queen with a better claim than his. A pair of twins are born, one male and one female. In order to protect the female to fulfill the prophecy, their genders are switch y a wizard and the original male, now female, is killed and given to the evil uncle. The surviving prince who is actually a princess is raised haunted by her dead brother's ghost. She does a bunch of good, but it is all built on the dead brother's unwilling sacrifice. This seems to be a source for Dany and Viserys's relationship. I think in the story I am working on laying out, there is a period of peace after the little brother is killed by a hammer of the waters, he becomes the Grey King before he steals the fire of the gods. Theon and you-know-who from Winds are Grey King figures that suffer horribly. That is a case of someone suffering for a false peace. The Grey King is a sacrificial greenseer impaled on a tree to give power to the king to rule. Aerys's rule was peaceful thanks to Tywin putting up with his cruelty. Likewise when someone like Littlefinger or Tywin rules through a sacrificial bastard like Sweetrobin, Tommen, or Joffery, peace seems possible, but it is all built on the suffering of one. The moral argument people have about the Red Wedding about whether it was ok to kill all those people to end a war is exactly the same discussion teachers use "Those who walk away from Omelas" to begin. Robb stares at Dany with "mute appeal" during her HotU vision. You have written about mute appeal a few times and you probly have a better understanding of what it means than anyone. So, I thought you would be interested in these stories. I think this is the peace that King Robert has. It is built upon the suffering of Dany and Viserys. Also, Davos is written almost exactly like one of Those that walk away. I think that is an important point GRRM is trying to make with his complex morality. If you use an unwilling scapegoat to obtain peace, it will fail eventually. They will get help, in the story from a woman, and the house of cards collapses.
  14. The short and hopefully understandable version is that yes I agree with that. The third round you are talking about is where the child puppet king rebels against his little brother puppet master like the king of Rohan does to Grima and Saruman. Rohan is in a vale after all. It seems to be headed toward Sweetrobin in the books, but he not being important enough was replaced by Bran who is like the literal version of everything Robin is metaphorically. I think all three rounds are decided by a woman. Cat gives her favor to Brandon. It comes full full circle in the sence that the little brother starts out sympathetic and winds up a tyrant like his big brother was. That allows the author to connect and overlap the stories in different ways.
  15. Unchained

    POEMS (or other sundry quotes) that remind you of ASOIAF

    Hey @ravenous reader, I really like to see mentions of a flyting. They are definitely something George is using as a representative as a greenseer fight with windy words. We have talked about Lokasenna as one he uses at Viserys's death. Another I think that is used is Harbardslfod. In Lokasenna Thor wins by threatening Loki with a lightening hammer blow. In this other one Thor (the big brother played by Drogo when Viserys dies) instead loses a war of words against a guy named Greybeard who most people think is Odin in disguise but may be Loki. Greybeard even uses some of the same insults against Thor's wife as Loki does at Lokasenna. Greybeard denies the crossing of a river to Thor. Loki takes the form of a salmon after Lokasenna to escape the gods wrath, but gets caught anyway. Edmure is a trout (cousin of the salmon) and denied Tywin from crossing a river. That may be a revenge of the Loki brother event.
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