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Angel Eyes

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Posts posted by Angel Eyes

  1. 2 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

    The knights of the Kingsguard are knights before they are guards of the king, and the vows they made when knighted are just as if not even more important that the vows they made when joining the KG. 

    This is why Aemon the Dragonknight was the best kingguard who ever lived, and why the other members of Aerys' kingsguard disgraced themselves more than Jaime as they had forsaken their knight oaths while keeping obeying to Aerys and Rhaegar. 

    When it comes to King Aerys' Kingsguard Gerold Hightower's placement at the Tower of Joy is decidedly the most mysterious. The king sends him to find Rhaegar, Arthur, Oswell, and Lyanna and for some reason Gerold stays at the Tower of Joy while Rhaegar leaves to command the army that gets taken out at the Trident; Hightower at the least would have been relied on as a commander, having taken command of the armies of Westeros during the War of the Ninepenny Kings after Lord Ormund Baratheon was killed. And then what we see of Rhaegar's performance as a commander, he does rather poorly considering he had the high ground and chose to leave it to engage Robert rather than take a defensive position and pepper the rebels with arrows as they struggle to cross.

  2. 1 hour ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

    Edmure wasn't pledged to anyone, and Hoster would most likely have not engaged him to any Frey woman or girl unless he really had no option left, I don't think that Hoster deemed Walder worthy of such a privilege and he wouldn't have trusted him anyway. 

    I'm surprised that Edmure wasn't pledged to anyone considering how marriage-crazy Hoster was with both his daughters (Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon when she was 12, not much older than Sansa was in the first book) and how angry he was with the Blackfish with the betrothals he spurned

  3. 5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

    Hoster has the political experience to advise Robb.  But I don’t think he could stop the dishonorable and embarrassing way that Robb carried himself. Cat and Brynden failed to keep Robb from self-destructing. Hoster can’t do better. Robb would break his oath to Walder and gotten the same result.

    Catelyn at the least wasn't around when Robb slept with Jeyne; by the time she met up with Robb again at Riverrun in ASOS the damage was done.

  4. On 11/26/2022 at 1:16 AM, Floki of the Ironborn said:

    Now that you mention it, I still don't understand how Renly is portrayed in the first book. He wants to have Robert set Cersei aside to marry Margaery, but on what grounds? And why? He denies knowing about the incest between Cersei and Jaime, so was it just because of his ties to the Tyrells? What would he have gained from that?

    It confuses me as well, particularly Mace's ambitions to have a grandchild sit the Iron Throne; if Robert divorces Cersei Tywin would take offense via overreaction or Joffrey would try and murder any children Robert and Margaery have together. If Renly has Robert take Margaery as his mistress he's no closer to having his children on the Iron Throne because they'd be illegitimate... or Cersei has them murdered. Plus being a mistress to the King is a very precarious position as Bethany Bracken found out the hard way.

  5. I personally believe either Littlefinger or Cersei, Cersei because she hates Tyrion and Littlefinger as a possible deterrent in whatever he plans, plus Mandon is from the Vale like Littlefinger.

    On the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if Mandon's employer is revealed in an offhand way, like Joffrey turning out to be the catspaw's employer from AGOT.

  6. 12 minutes ago, frenin said:

    Both Cersei and Pycelle believe that Robert can set Cersei aside even without the twincest.


    Renly doesn't care.


    Renly does not care about that. He just wants Cersei out of the picture and Margaery gives him that.

    If it were that easy both Kings Aerys would have annulled their marriages, Aerys I because he'd rather take books to bed and Aerys II because he hated Rhaella and didn't want to marry her in the first place.

    Renly might not care, but Mace might. It's abundantly clear that Mace wanted a grandchild on the Iron Throne and Joffrey is an obstacle to that, an obstacle who carves up pregnant cats and wouldn't think twice about doing so to an infant. If Robert takes Margaery as his mistress he's no closer to having his grandkids on the Iron Throne.

  7. 17 minutes ago, frenin said:

    Unless he did not know about it.

    Renly's only purpose to marry Robert to Margaery is to get Cersei out of the way, if Renly knew about the twincest why not tell Robert?

    Robert would no doubt kill Cersei and if Tywin  and Jaime were dumb enough to go to war over it, they'd die too. Seems like an easy plan... As opposed to have to use portraits of Maegaery and pray for her to look like Lyanna lol.

    And how was Renly going to do that? It isn't as if Robert is going to divorce Cersei since that's almost unheard of (the only King known to divorce his queen was Baelor the Blessed), and Joffrey would likely murder any kids Robert had with Margaery. If Robert takes Margaery as his mistress that's still a no gain since they would only be bastards, they wouldn't be able to sit the Iron Throne even if Robert declared his "children" with Cersei illegitimate via annulment (ie Henry VIII declaring Mary illegitimate after annulling his his marriage with Catherine of Aragon, or Rhaegar annuling his marriage with Elia in the show).

  8. 3 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

    As I said earlier, Robert left the city very quickly after Jon died, so time would have been a huge factor for Stannis here. And even if he'd told Robert his suspicions about Jon Arryn and Cersei, Robert probably wouldn't have paid much attention. He never had before. Which was why Stannis went to Jon Arryn in the first place; so that Robert wouldn't dismiss Stannis out of reflex. With Jon dead, why would Robert do anything other than assume Stannis was trying to take advantage of the whole situation?

    I think Jaime actually points that out in the show; it looks dreadfully convenient that Stannis, the man who has the most to gain from such allegations (admittedly true though I'm surprised Cersei didn't deny them) about Cersei and her children, would be the one to figure it out/make the news known.

  9. 2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

    Jaime's intention is to be a better person, he wants to be honourable and honoured for it - so he's improved already.

    The problem is where the path ends. Jaime is a Lannister, and has been immersed in Tywin's world since birth. He doesn't know any better. Tywin can give his people peace and plenty, at the cost of occasional horror shows like Castamere and the Red Wedding, and ongoing enforcement at the hands of the Mountain, Amory Lorch, the Brave Companions, Qyburn, the Tickler etc - all Tywin's beasts. This is the Lannister lesson Cersei tries to teach Sansa - it is better to be feared than loved. And Jaime has taken that lesson to heart - he uses fear to achieve peace. It's Tywin's path he's on.

    Granted Tywin's way isn't shown to be incorrect by the events of the story; quite the opposite since no amount of love saves the Starks, in fact it causes more trouble (read: Catelyn's motherly love for Bran being the match to the powder keg).

  10. 3 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

    Sure.  There is more than enough space to redeem Jaime.  But something's got to give.  Someone else is going to have to be disappointed with the redemption of his own particular favorite villain, and/or the adequate resolution of many other hanging plot threads.

    A doorstopper does not contain unlimited space, especially the way GRRM writes.  If it did, this would have been a trilogy of non-doorstoppers.

    Book 3 was a doorstopper.  But it only divided its action among 10 POVs, not counting a Cressen one-off, and a Merritt one-off, and not counting Theon who failed to appear despite (as it turned out) not actually being dead.  Already, plot development was starting to drag a bit.  GRRM at least managed to kill off Catelyn.  She didn't exactly stay dead, but at least she failed to return as her own POV.


    I think you mean Chett; Cressen was in Book 2.

  11. 6 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:


    Why would Martin do this? If he subverts our expectations just to subvert our expectations, that's veering into D&D territory. I have more respect for George as a writer than that.

    It's more along the line of "I wouldn't be surprised if it happened."

    On the other hand isn't plenty of ASOIAF subverting expectations? Quentyn's story is one long subversion of the Hero's Journey: half his band is killed off before we meet him, the queen he was supposed to marry marries somebody else, he tries to prove himself worthy by taming a wild beast... which roasts him alive. His father and uncle are subversions of the revenge quest: Oberyn is the hot-blooded type whose thirst to gets him brutally killed while Doran's indolence in his plans leads to others killing his targets and because pawns have minds of their own.

  12. 11 minutes ago, Rondo said:

    Roose is the worst.  

    Lord Frey is actually a pretty good father.  He at least has the balls to support his children.  Can Robert Baratheon and Brandon Stark make the same claim?  I think not.

    If Brandon has children. Plus for all we know Robert would have taken care of his (illegitimate) children if Cersei didn't threaten them, he did want to bring Mya up to King's Landing before Cersei said it would be a shame if something bad happened to her (byword for threat).

  13. 10 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

    In order for a redemption ark to work well, it cannot be a linear progression of events. The character should be introduced to a better way of living their life; they should take baby steps on the alternative path, only to backtrack. Next, they should be reminded of why their former, villianous life was bad and what made them want to leave it in the first place. Finally, they must make amends for their past behavior, even if it means humbling themselves before people who have good reason to hate them.

    Zuko, from the magnificent Nikolodeon show Avatar: The Last Airbender, is an example of a redemption ark done masterfully. He starts the first season as a fairly straightforward, if complex, villian. In season 2, Zuko struggles to reconcile his desire to go home with his growing realization that the cause he fights for is monstrous. In the final season, Zuko, having apparently made his choice, returns home as an honored son, only to realize that he is still angry and more alone than ever. When he at last makes the decision to join the Avatar Aang and his friends, it takes a while for them to accept and trust Zuko. He must earn his place. That is how you make a redemption ark believable.

    Jaime is in the early stages of his own redemption ark. In ASoS, he was forced to live with, fight beside and support and be supported by, Brienne. Through his interaction with her, Jaime found an alternative future for himself, as he grew to admire Brienne's sense of honor and justice and her conviction that a knight should uphold his vows to defend the weak. By rescuing Brienne from the bear pit, Jaime took his first actionable steps on the path to redemption. His willingness to become a mentor-of-sorts to Loras Tyrell also shows personal growth for Jaime. But of course, a redemption ark cannot be a straight line. Jaime still wants to have sex with Cersei. He still feels obligated to support his family despite knowing full well that the regime he fights for is wholly illegitimate. He channels his inner Tywin by threatening to murder Edmure Tully's unborn baby, even if he clearly doesn't have the cajones to go through with such an act. In fitting with a complex human being, Jaime Lannister is just as tempted by what's familiar and easy, i.e, loyalty to his family, as his is by values of honor, integrity and justice as represented by his affection for Brienne.

    Jaime is at a crossroads for his character. Lady Stoneheart offers him a Stark choice; in order to fully redeem himself, he must make himself emotionally vulnerable before people who fucking despise him. Or, he can be punished for his greatest sin. He must atone for what he did to Bran. That is likely the reason for why Jaime has never reflected on Bran in any of his pov chapters. George is saving that part for when the stakes are at their climactic point for Jaime's character. He must face the literal corpse of that child's mother and ask, as Zuko did, "what can I do to make it right?"

    Where Jaime's story goes from there is really up to the author. Perhaps nothing Jaime can say or do will save him from a swift and summary execution. (Rather unlikely.) Maybe Lady Stoneheart will send him forth to find Bran (assuming she finds out he is alive). More likely, perhaps, she could send him off to find and protect Sansa or Arya. The most likely possibility of all, however, is that Lady Stoneheart commands Jaime to return to Kings Landing to kill Cersei, wrapping up Jaime's story with a final, cruel test. 

    The point of all this is that redemption arks are never linear progressions, and they are always physically and emotionally difficult for the characters involved. They must exact a cost, and there must be internal obstacles standing in the way of the character's desire for redemption. But Jaime's present reluctance to move forward on that ark does not mean he isn't on it. Zuko needed to return to his father and become an honored member of the evil Fire Nation again in order to move forward. And Jaime needed to reallign himself with the Lannisters and with Cersei in order to move forward. Otherwise, his possible future rejection of his family would never ever feel earned.

    I wouldn't put it past George to have nothing that Jaime can do to save him from Lady Stoneheart. His name's already mud by giving Brienne Oathkeeper, a sword made from her husband's sword, decorated with Lannister symbols.

  14. 4 hours ago, Daena the Defiant said:

    This is a valid point, but still, a train of ladies and minstrels and such is a trapping of power and status and Cersei certainly doesn't stint herself.  

    It's also shrewd politics and something I'm surprised Tywin didn't press on her. You can bestow favors on your favored vassals by taking their eligible daughters and making them ladies in waiting so they can network and be seen at court and potentially make advantageous matches. On the flip side, and this something much more in line with Tywin's ruthlessness, it also makes them hostages to compel loyalty - which actually see in ADWD when Jaime collects a son and a daughter from the Brackens and Blackwoods (I forget which one produced which) - he gets to be a squire and she gets to be a lady attendant to the queen as an "honor" but they're hostages. 

    Maybe the fact that they'd be hostages puts people off. Think of Sansa getting beaten by Joffrey.

  15. 58 minutes ago, James Steller said:

    All the more reason why I think he's partly responsible for the victories at Whispering Wood and the Camps, and he probably played a crucial role in the Westerlands. Robb, talented as he was, was just 15. It makes far more sense that Brynden was giving him advice and carrying out a bunch of roles which helped Robb score his victories.

    Not that I'm arguing for Roose to stay in command, he definitely couldn't be trusted. I'd have gone with Wyman Manderly, personally. He's the heir to the most powerful house in the North (after House Stark, anyway), and he's utterly loyal to Robb. He also would presumably play things cautious if that was Robb's orders to him.

    I think you mean Wylis; Wyman, Lord of White Harbor didn't ride to war.

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