Angel Eyes

5 hours ago, sifth said:

Robert should have sent Lurch and Gregor to The Wall; possibly Jamie too, but I can see Robert and Jon A, not wanting to do that, since it would anger Tywin. If Jamie explained Aerys plan to destroy the city, I can see grounds to pardon him. Maybe dismissing him from the Kingsguard, as a way to please Tywin. Robert marrying Cersei directly is a mistake, since Tywin came to his cause late. Maybe allow Stannis or Renly to marry her though, as a way to unite the families. Robert should have married a member of House Tyrell or Martell, to turn a former enemy into a friend and uniting a second powerful house to his cause.

As far as the Tyrells and Martells were concerned, who was available? From what I'm aware, Arianne was seven at the time and the only known legitimate female Martell, while maybe Janna was available (Mina was already married to Paxter Redwyne since Horror and Slobber were born at that point). The "who was available" tends to come up as to why Lysa married Jon Arryn.

3 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Pardon my French, but this is utter bollocks. 

Without going into the show with logistics, just look at King's Landing: A city of 500,000 people, which is stretching it by medieval standards (about the size of Constantinople c. 500 C.E.), primarily fed by food from the Reach no less than 500 miles away (Highgarden is 900 miles away), making it a big deal when Renly besieges King's Landing. This would require a rather large bureaucracy to organize, funding, distribution, as well as control over neighboring kingdoms, would it not? And yet it's shown that the Crown is rather hands-off in ruling. Unless most of the population subsists on each other...

Everything that people complain about in the show (logistics, subverting expectations, sudden bad things happening out of nowhere, unpleasant shifts in characters) is present in the books, just on a larger scale.

Hypothetical question:

Say in ASOIAF or beforehand, Hoster and Edmure Tully died, the latter without issue (let's just say, for the sake of simplicity, he hits his head on a lintel). How would the Tully succession proceed from there? Brynden Blackfish is unmarried, so the title would pass to Catelyn's children... which poses its own problem since Robb, Catelyn's eldest living child, is heir to House Stark. Would it fall to Bran?

I think there's a theory out there somewhere that Pycelle is of Westerlands origin, and may hold some residual loyalty to House Lannister.

On 8/17/2023 at 1:25 PM, Khloey said:

Damn, I hated Show Sansa.. she just becomes a cold arrogant entitled bi***. Kind of like Cersei. She didn't strike me as smarter at all. But then all the smarts characters on the show became really dumb. First Littlefinger in season 4, then Varys and Tyrion, Doran, Olenna... to the point that "show viewers only" think Cersei is one of the smartest characters ever

The only thing I liked better on the show were the Tywin/Arya scenes and Margaery. And Olenna was phenomenal in season 3 and 4. Oberyn was very well portrayed as well, better than his book counterpart.

Hated what they did to smart characters in general, like I said before. Also hated what they did to Loras' character, (and Renly by extensions), turning them into effeminate guys, which just strikes me as homophobic.

And I hated the fact that they've shown female developpment/empowerment (according to them) through rape (Dany, Cersei, Sansa). All 3 characters becoming somewhat the same once they come into power.

The lack of subtility in general of the latter seasons really bugs me. I think GOT just became too popular for its own good.

Well, Sansa's going that way in the books too. As for Doran... his plans were never great in the first place, just ask Viserys when Doran left him out to dry.

25 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I think we have to remember that we spend an awful lot of time around the wealthiest and most powerful people in Westeros, so gold dragons are going to be more common (and useful), especially as a unit of account for extremely large sums.

Assuming the figures on the wiki are correct, the gap between halfpennies and dragon is extremely large, but if we take the view that inflation since the time of their introduction has driven the value of halfpennies down to the point they're no longer all that useful (do we ever see them used?), then that gives us 11,760 pennies to the dragon as the full functional range of the currency.

The largest coin to be regularly minted in England under old money was the guinea, which yielded over a thousand farthings (the smallest coin), although exceptional coins went up to almost 3,000 farthings. But among modern coins, the Britannia has a face value of £100, meaning it's worth 10,000 pennies (the smallest coin in circulation). Its gold bullion value (which in Westeros would be almost identical to its face value) is much higher, around £1,600, making it worth 160,000 pennies. Of course, the Britannia is not really a coin intended for everyday transactions. So although a range of 12,000 or so in Westeros does seem unnecessarily large, I don't think it's inconceivable.

With that said, I agree that (leaving aside the Anguy/Sandor silliness in the first book) dragons are probably more common among the smallfolk than they should be. Dunk, a relatively poor man, has a couple on him when he turns up at Ashford in The Hedge Knight: this seems unlikely not only because it's an awful lot of money but because the coins are so large for the purposes he (or Arlan before him) were likely to need that they'd be useless, like trying to pay for a coffee with a $1,000 bill.

I wonder if GRRM overestimated stamina in that book. How does somebody burn through so much wine, women (plus a knife and boots) over two weeks? Anguy must have steel for a liver (plus more down below).

On 8/8/2023 at 7:54 PM, Castellan said:

I think saving the child was extremely important to Rhaegar. Possibly more important than winning the battle. Whatever he had learned in arcane research or visions made him place that value on Targ children.

I can't remember how many companions Eddard rode to the TOJ with, but possibly Rhaegar anticipated that two KG would not be enough. In the event, three failed, but that is thought to be due to a dishonorable move by Howland Reed.

If that were the case how come he left Rhaenys and Aegon to the hounds so to speak?

There were 7 Northerners who rode to the Tower of Joy: Ned, Howland, Lord Dustin, Martyn Cassel (Rodrik's brother and Jory's father), Ser Mark Ryswell, Ethan Glover (the lone surviving member of Brandon's ill-fated party to the Red Keep), and Theo Wull (I think he was adapted out).

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Many fans, think Rhaegar choose to take a second wife, like Aegeon the first did. Which would make a Jon a true born.

I don't think that's the case; if it were Aerys would have married Joanna and Rhaella.

I have two. The first is that Summerhall had a library of Targaryen history particularly on years between Daeron II and Aegon V, which also explains why there's little information on the Targaryens during that time (Daeron's daughter, Aerion's son Maegor, Aegon's sisters) because it all went up in smoke. Rhaegar also goes there because he mourns the loss of information (as well as being born in tragedy).

The other is that Lysa and Sweetrobin are both suffering from lead poisoning.

Something that I find interesting about Robert's Rebellion is that when Lord Commander Gerold Hightower went to find Prince Rhaegar Targaryen at the Tower of Joy, he and Rhaegar swapped places: Hightower stayed at the Tower to guard Lyanna while Rhaegar went to command the King's army. Between the three Kingsguard there, I find Hightower's placement there quite suspicious; Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent were Rhaegar's close friends and in on his plans with Lyanna, but Hightower, as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, would have been counted on as a commander for the royal army, as had happened during the War of the Ninepenny Kings when Ormund Baratheon was slain and Gerold had taken command of the combined Westerosi army.

So in theory, what about that tower and its occupants was more important than commanding the royal army and taking an active role in military matters, as Lewyn Martell, Barristan Selmy, and Jonothor Darry had at the Battle of the Trident? What about Rhaegar's orders was more important than King Aerys' orders? Lyanna was already guarded by two Kingsguard, why were three needed? Even if Rhaegar and Lyanna had conceived Jon Snow (unproven as of yet in the books) and Jon is/was the Prince who was Promised, he would have been illegitimate... unless Rhaegar had annulled his marriage to Elia making Rhaenys and Aegon illegitimate (man those kids would have had it rough, being disowned by both grandfather and father, if they'd even survived the Sack of King's Landing).

1 hour ago, Alester Florent said:

Jorah's reports are probably going to be along the lines of where they are, what they're doing, what they're planning, how many men they have, rather than detailed exposés of Dothraki culture giving those at the other end the necessary understanding to figure out that Drogo is just as effective a target as Dany for their goals. 

And I doubt Robert or even Ned actually reads Jorah's reports: they'll be delivered to Varys who'll precis them for the council as appropriate. 

And from Varys he could direct an assassination.

41 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Because Daenerys - and her unborn baby - are the dynastic threat.

They probably don't understand Dothraki society well enough to understand the implications. From their perspective, Rhaego will be the legitimate khal of Drogo's khalasar and the claimant to Westeros. The acting khal could marry Daenerys, putting them in basically the same position as before, and they've aggravated the khalasar to such an extent that they've all but guaranteed they will attack. Or Dany could find a new husband and broker an alliance between him and Rhaego, making Rhaego even more dangerous.

What should actually happen of course is that Drogo's khalasar breaks up, Rhaego is killed, and Dany is carted off to Vaes Dothrak never to be seen again (without the dragons that allow her to retain her own followers in number), so it would in theory solve their problems completely. 

It's not surprising that Ned, Bob, etc. don't know how it works. Dany clearly doesn't prior to Drogo's death and she lives among the Dothraki. 

Wouldn't they have at least some knowledge of how the Dothraki operate via Jorah?

So, to get back to the topic, how did they intend to cross?

As far as the Dorne plots in the books go, some of it feels half-baked.

19 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

Couple of reasons combined

1) tywin like many lords sees service like maesters,septons as beneath great lords and their sons

2) the nights watch still has SOME rep within the 7 kingdoms so theres still some possibility he causes him shame somehow and is far from his control

3) tywins obsession is securing his house both in reputation and real power. He still attempted to marry tyrion off ....from the wiki it seems he aimed for lesser and lesser lords each time! So he still held out some hope of a marriage .. at some point he might even  settle for a knightly house!

4)tywin clearly understands tyrion can be useful when he stops whoring  and drinking for a few hours as evident by the good job he did with the casterly rock sewers! 

5)tywin had kevan so he might assume jamie would need a right hand man to ensure the family stays in line. Kevan followed tywins lead and was competent at handling logistics etc and he probably assumed tyrion couold do likewise for jame (probably moreso as jamie isnt that bright and tyrion is)

3. Surprised he didn't find one earlier considering that he allowed Kevan to marry Dorna.

4. Well that's the thing; for all of Tywin's (public) disdain for whores, he never actually stops Tyrion from using his money for them.

8 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Robert was afraid of the Dothraki.  Robert was an incompetent ruler but he knew weaponry and battle.  If he feared the Dothraki then it is proof that if they had crossed the Narrow Sea, the Baratheon reign would end very quickly.  He knew many of the nobles would support King Viserys III if for no other reason because he was  the true Targaryen king and the Iron throne belonged to him. 

The Dothraki would have to get over their cultural aversion to the sea. Culture's a tough nut to crack, as Daenerys has found out the hard way.

So in AGOT the Small Council starts raising their hackles at the idea of a Dothraki invasion of Westeros save for Ned Stark. But how was it going to work?

• First off the Dothraki have a cultural aversion to the sea (they consider it poison water because their horses can't drink it).
• How many were in Drogo's horde alone? The numbers seemed to range from 10,000 to 100,000 screamers, that's quite a range. Drogo's going to have to fight hard to crack that cultural nut
  • It's also the same reason it boggles the mind as to how Renly could keep his 100,000-strong army together
• Acquiring the gold and ships, plus the crews for the ships; we see the start of this with Drogo acquiring slaves to sell but that's about it
• The Dothraki would likely have some amount of infighting which would wear down their numbers at any point plus attrition
• Being culturally averse to the sea, they're not going to be really adept at naval warfare... which the Westerosi are.
• The Westerosi are likely not going to to do much to help Viserys and the Dothraki and hadn't for 15 years. Case in point Doran Martell: Viserys is his son-in-law-to be and has a kingdom at his back and contacts in Essos through his brother, yet he does jack shit to improve Viserys' situation or even just to train him up to be a suitable son-in-law for Arianne... was Doran setting her up to be abused?
• There's a lot of fortifications standing between them and King's Landing; divided ones but the Westerosi could just shoot them silly with arrow fire as they pass or attack since the Dothraki aren't really interested in siege warfare
• And they had no dragons at this point.

13 minutes ago, Aebram said:

Interesting question!  Tywin only had two sons; and when Jaime was tapped for the Kingsguard, he was out of the line of succession. Tywin may have been hanging on to the hope that his other son would mature into someone that he considered worthy of being the next Lord of Casterly Rock.

Not after Tysha he wouldn't. But on the other hand Tywin never seemed to believe that Jaime's vow to the Kingsguard was for life, didn't he pressure him at least once to resign?

Something I've wondered about Daenerys (Daeron II's sister): how come she never got any flak like Daeron got about possibly being Aemon the Dragonknight's kid with Naerys? Or do we not know about whether or not she did?

It would get him out of the line of inheritance which Tywin has always wanted, give him something to do with his brain, and it would be harder for him to waste Tywin's money on whores (why Tywin still continues to fund him despite his public disapproval is beyond me).

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s one thing to say there are parallels in their stories and an altogether different thing to say they are “sides of the same coin”. 

Yes there's parallels and what I'm saying is that there's a chance, considering where Sansa is at now under Littlefinger that she could become like Cersei. Don't necessarily like it, but there's a chance.

1 minute ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Please don't bring up the garbage show as evidence, since Sansa has never met and is very unlikely to meet Ramsay Bolton. 

And the resemblance between Sansa and Cersei are superficial since Sansa lacks Cersei's ambition, cruelty, petiness, paranoia and vindicativeness and that Cersei was already cruel and petty long before marrying Robert. And that's not counting the lack of incest.

Harry may not be as bad as Ramsay, but he doesn't seem like a good person. As far as superficial resemblance, that'll probably change under Littlefinger.

9 hours ago, 1000th Lord Commander said:

My bets are either Kevan or Pycelle, or both. By removing both of them he has removed all the teeth from the Lannisters, leaving no one to check the Tyrells.

 

Unless Cersei decides to set fire to the whole works...

To quote a certain French "archaeologist", Cersei is a shadowy reflection of Sansa and it would only take a small nudge to make Sansa like Cersei (as evidenced with the show when Sansa marries Ramsay).

Both are daughters of a Warden, whose fathers were made Hand of the King to a King who was a close friend of said father. Each has a brother who joined a monastic warrior order who became its Lord Commander (Jon for Sansa, Jaime for Cersei), a younger sibling whom they quarrel with (Arya for Sansa, Tyrion for Cersei), and a younger brother who's crippled (Bran for Sansa, Tyrion again for Cersei. Both ladies had aspirations for being queen and were betrothed/married to royalty, but suffered abuse at their hands (Robert raped Cersei, Joffrey had Sansa beaten) which has left them decidedly jaded ("No one will marry me for love).") Sansa's subsequent husband and betrothed bear similarities to Cersei's husband Robert Baratheon; Tyrion is a hedonistic womanizer while Harry Hardyng is a womanizer who casts his illegitimate children aside and betrothed to a Northern lady.

This also means that I don't have high hopes for Sansa's relationship with Harry Hardyng or her association with Littlefinger given both their personalities (Harry resents the betrothal in the first place) and Littlefinger's lust for Catelyn being projected onto Sansa. 

7 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

He was exiled in 297 AC and returned in 299 AC. In those 2 years he's visited far off places like Ibben, Valyria and Asshai.

Note : it takes a year to reach Asshai from Westeros and 1 year to get back so total - 2. Ibben would be slightly shorter. But Euron visited all these places in 2 years only ! Other captains would have taken more than 3 years.

Not to mention he was reaving and looting.

How did he travel so fast ? - Blood sacrifice to give him wind for his sails !

He's working with Littlefinger, who made a teleporter and Euron implemented it on a wider scale.