Angel Eyes

10 hours ago, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

And that’s why it should happen. The discourse in the fandom would be hilarious 

It would subvert expectations quite nicely.

2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Interesting. Ned was a good ruler for the North, and I think we’re a bit harsh on his time in KL. First the game was late in the 4th quarter when he entered and he didn’t even know it was being played. Second, his actual moves revolving around his knowledge isn’t what kills him so much as the things people he (understandably) thinks are on his side keep doing, Cat kidnapping Tyrion (then letting him go), Sansa choosing Cersei over him, LF whom Cat said he could trust…it’s fine to say he shouldn’t have followed that advice, but he had to trust someone, and given how little he knew the players, taking Cat’s advice makes more sense than just picking, say, Varys on a whim. It didn’t work out, but imo it’s only a little on Ned…yes, he should have taken Renly’s offer…but it’s understandable that he did not yet realize how little time he had left to act…no, he probably shouldn’t have warned Cersei, but that’s fundamental to who he is as a person, that’s not about being stupid or naive, he makes the same choice (or some version of it) if you give it all to him to do over. He was completely okay with risking his life for the sake of his honour if it was just about that. 
 

Also, I would not remotely compare Cersei with Tyrion to Sansa and Arya. The first is ~ psychotically abusive, the latter just standard sibling stuff, Arya generally gives as much as she gets. If Sansa actually is horrible to anyone it’s Jon, but she’s just following her mom’s lead there and it’s sins of omission more than commission. It IS weird she goes like the entire day of the fall of the Starks before even wondering about Arya, but at the time that was written she was probably still a villain in the making in GRRM’s mind.

Well, the Catelyn trusting Littlefinger part is a definite problem. Catelyn tells Ned not to trust Robert on the basis of their old friendship, but says to trust Littlefinger because they grew up together. Anyways, most people wouldn't trust the person who had a crush on their current wife/significant other. With not warning Cersei, yes it's fundamental to who he is, but that still makes it a stupid move that accomplishes nothing but losing his head.

As far as Sansa and Arya are concerned, Arya's already shown to resent Sansa from her first POV chapter and Sansa enables bullying from Jeyne, she's an accomplice by inaction at best. Plus Tyrion gives as good as he gets (drugging Cersei in ACOK).

My perception of Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister is that they're two sides of the same concept: subverting the idea that a good man should be a good ruler.

• Ned is a generally decent man, frosty behavior aside, whose decision to give mercy to Cersei gets him disgraced and killed, while Tywin is a ruthless man (Rains of Castamere, Rhaenys and Aegon, Tysha) who was nonetheless an effective politician for years in King's Landing (Ned lasts a year at most).
• Each has similar backgrounds: became friends with a future King and served as comrades-in-arms with them (as well as alongside a Baratheon), love their wives, had a younger sister who was betrothed to unsuitable men, and had kids who are mirrors of each other:
  • Jaime and Robb are valiant warriors who muse on their failures as heroes (Jaime kills the Mad King to save the city but is reviled for it, Robb joins a war to rescue his relatives but fails utterly),
  • Cersei and Sansa are beautiful women who had hopes of becoming Queen that were dashed by abusive relationships and also pick on a younger sibling (Tyrion for Cersei, Arya for Sansa)
  • Ned and Tywin each have a son who is crippled (Bran is paralyzed, Tyrion has dwarfism)

3 hours ago, csuszka1948 said:

I think it's important to note that  Cersei's journey is far from over: 

She was very idiotic in AFFC, but she might be able to recover from the humiliation and trauma she suffered and I expect her to be more mindful (even if in some ways more mad) in TWOW.

Let's just watch her destroy Aegon and/or Daenerys against all odds, shall we?

8 hours ago, sifth said:

So let me get this right. You think Qyburn cut off Gregor's head, somehow got hold of Robb's head and attacked Robb's head to Gregor's body, a head that was probably mostly rotten away by time it got to Kings Landing............because reasons? I mean if the guy needed a head, I'm sure he could have gotten one. Cersei killed quite a few people, during her time as regent.

Technically I don't believe this theory yet, but given how Martin is, I'm inclined to at least be open to things. This is simply a rundown of how it would work.

14 minutes ago, sifth said:

 No, why would they put it on Gregor’s body?

A placeholder since the skull would be in Dorne.

10 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

I think he was too late

His inital rage filles revenge was clearly marrying his daughter to viserys and waging  open war vs robert.Doran we later see is a rare lord who values the lives of innocents +  viserys claim fades as he becomes the beggar king..... thus the plan becomes more surgical.

 

I've never been sure how much Viserys factored into Doran's plans since Doran made no moves to help him during his exile even though Viserys was his intended son-in-law. It's as if Doran either wanted Arianne to be abused by Viserys or set up the betrothal for nothing.

3 hours ago, sifth said:

That doesn't answer my second question.

How the head got to King's Landing? Someone brought it.

17 minutes ago, sifth said:

Why would Rob's head be on the Mountain's body and how did it get there?

Theoretically, Robb's head would have been sent to King's Landing per a missive by Joffrey to Grand Maester Pycelle as mentioned in the Small Council meeting after the Red Wedding. Tywin didn't exactly do anything to countermand him.

23 minutes ago, sifth said:

The Mountain is still alive..........sort of. So there is still one person out there responsible for the death of his loved ones.

But does Doran know that?

On 6/1/2023 at 7:16 PM, chrisdaw said:

He's half fighting to undo Tywin's legacy and half just reaching to put Martells back on the throne now. And yeah it's going to end terribly, Arianne is going to go full let the world burn mode when Dany kills Aegon and she loses her husband and queenship.

That's if Aegon doesn't get infected first.

In general, I see Doran in particular as a subversion of the chessmaster archetype; he has all these grand plans for revenge but none come to fruition because he doesn't move even to protect his assets (read: Viserys). By the time he's taken action, every target is already gone and the pawns have gallivanted off on their own thing. It would be as if the target of the 47 Rōnin had died of a cold before they took revenge.

19 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's not up to them. At the minimum Lysa was the price (but really both of them)

.

"Father," she said, "Father, I know what you did." She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. "You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

.

What's the point of text if we're just going to think whatever the fuck we want?

 

My point is that Ned and Catelyn's marriage already tied Hoster to the rebels and he wound up shooting them in the foot with the other since Lysa was unhappy with a husband who was four times her age and Littlefinger found a vulnerable link to pick at and break the alliance apart.

On 5/31/2023 at 2:36 PM, Lady Stonehearts Simp said:

It’s so insulting to me. Like Dany or Jon being on throne makes sense. fAegon makes sense. The 7K splitting back to 7 independent kingdoms makes sense.

I do not see how Westeros would accept Bran as King. Maybe the North and Riverlands. But no where else 

Maybe not even the North, given how the Karstark sons were saying that Bran should kill himself (which also makes Tyrion appear rather foolish).

On 5/28/2023 at 7:14 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Yes, in fact they needed both. That's why Ned and Cat got married in a hurry, to cement it. If Ned said no then Hoster would have called the whole thing off and Robert would have failed. Hoster definitely had Jon by the balls, but you know, with his daughters lives at stake.

I don't think so; Ned and Cat would have aligned the Tullys with Robert's cause without needing Jon and Lysa's match.

Or maybe Tywin had Tysha's throat slit and dumped her corpse in a privy.

I just think that Tywin meant to throw Tyrion off completely; since whores are everywhere, there's an inordinate amount of places she could be.

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Reforging Valyrian steel requires a sacrifice. If his armour was made from Brightroar, Gerion's sacrifice would have allowed it to be reforged. It is not actually confirmed that Euron really went to Valyria. He is a big time liar after all, and pretending he did would serve his purpose. But let's say he did. He went there, and that is where he encountered Gerion who, for whatever reason, had been unable to leave but had found Brightroar. Maybe. He would have needed a Qohorik blacksmith though.

Not sure where they got that detail, but even so, it does not negate the possibility that they crossed paths, Aerea Targaryen was missing for two years when she took off to Valyria, we don't know how long Gerion took to get there, and it is even possible that Euron crossed paths with Gerion on an earlier trip before he was exhiled. So the relationship of Gerion's departure to Euron's exhile is not all that key.

I also sometimes wonder who Victarion's salt wife was, the one Euron seduced or raped. The Ironborn tradition is that salt wives are "won", so it is likely that Victarion "took" her as part of his actions during the Greyjoy rebellion. The Ironborn were not doing much fighting after that. Meanwhile we know that Gerion's mistress Briony, mother of Joy Hill, is dead or gone, and that Gerion sailed a great deal, making it at least possible that Briony was someone he met on a ship or at the port with the Lannister fleet. If so, she would have been in the path of the Ironborn when they rebelled, making it possible this salt wife was Briony. That would be an interesting twist.

I thought Victarion killed her.

5 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree. Everyone involved is dead. But the despicable Sand Snakes want to 'transfer' the vengeance on to the innocent Tommen. It will not end well for anyone involved. Sadly I am not rating poor Tommen's chances of survival verify highly so I can only hope the Sand Snakes get their comeuppance eventually.

Yes. I am convinced the reason he (and by extension Tyrion?), lost the trial is because he was trying to use it for vengeance rather than justice. Might make a full post about this later.

Plus Oldtown in Obara's case.

As for Oberyn losing the trial, Martin wanted to subvert Inigo Montoya.

30 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

No. Not at all.

The North's separation from the other Seven Kingdoms makes zero sense. In fact, within the context of the show, it's both idiotic and extremely harmful. And the Stark dynasty will die as soon as it started.

Rickon (I am 90% sure that he will survive the series) will be the Lord of Winterfell and the forefather of all future male-line Stark descendants. Under Rickon's leadership, I think the Starks will go back to their roots as being more like the Free Folk and the Skagosi. That can't happen under Sansa.

However, I do see Sansa being Bran's Hand of the King...the first female Hand. Out of all the surviving Starks, she is the most capable and the most prepared to deal with both the lowborn and the highborn.

Well, like how you suggested, Sansa does wind up being all alone in the show which is what I was getting at.

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

First of all, Tyrion is not altruistic. With him, strings are always attached.

But back to Arya...yes, I can see Arya creating an institution or order for women and girls. Like a BwB type of police force. Her Braavosi connects will likely support such an arrangement. But I think that Arya can do that out of her own castle. Kinda like Lady Smallwood was an ally and sponsor of the BwB. Her lady wife status can be a cover...

I feel like Sansa will end up being the single, childfree one...the one more focused on politics.

Like how she ended in the show?

20 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

Presumably Tywin gave him the bollocking to end all bollockings for allowing it to happen in the first place, and made some dire threats, perhaps including threats against Tyrion himself, if Jaime didn't go along with his plan to undo it. It's also possible that Jaime didn't know - or chose not to know - the full extent of Tywin's intentions and thought he would just be telling his brother a white lie to get him out of a difficult situation.

We know of several who did. While infanticide is probably distressingly common, it's still not something every mother - even the majority of mothers - could force themselves to do.

Well, I wouldn't put it past Jaime to choose not to know; he'd already lived through the Sack of King's Landing where the kids he was supposed to protect were killed on Tywin's orders and their mother raped. There's no way he couldn't know unless he blinded himself to it.

When it comes to Tyrion's bastards I'd say that most wouldn't want to keep his. There's always that outside chance of their child inheriting Tyrion's dwarfism and given how Tyrion is marginalized even at the upper echelons of society, they'd at least think twice. As for getting someone else to care for the kid or funds from the father? Forget about it for Tywin will make a Mountain of trouble for you.

57 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I hope she is not. Tysha was no whore, and it doesn't seem like she would become one either just because Tywin said she was. She had skills and a bit of money. Whoring was not her only option.

I always wondered why Jaime decided to go along with Tywin on that...

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But same with the sister, Lysa was the price Jon needed right? So even if Lysa wasn't crestfallen already she was already destined to marry the senior. 

As far as Petyr being a bad influence, I'm not sure. I mean LF is of course, but twenty years ago?  Hoster practically raised this kid, it's for all extensive purposes his kid. But one that can potentially marry his step sister, like Theon used to think Sansa would make a good wife until he realized Stark would never officially indoctrinate him into the family. But Ned's cold and while Hoster is an ass maybe not as much? I think it's worth noting that knocking up his daughter did not get him exiled, and only after he stood in the way of Hosters political aspersions was he finally sent away from Riverrun

That's the other thing; did they even need the Jon Arryn/Lysa match if Catelyn was already going to be bound to the Rebellion via marriage to Ned?

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hoster disapproved of that? 

Not really tbh (although I'm not positive what line your referring to), yea I mean I think it's complicated. So obviously there's lots of fuck this cuck and then flaunting his affair in her and the world's face, but that's the boss and her spouse so the anger get reflected. Then there's the complications with her suppressed feelings for Petyr or her less suppressed crush for Brandon mixed with jealousy for Ashara. But the main is I think, like home sick. Cat was sent up north with a stomach but that's about it, no ladies in waiting no brother or nuncle. The North's weird and cold and dreary but Robb was all she needed, although she got blessed four times afterwards, got a Sept built in her name, Ned's aloof but Winterfell feels like home. 

But it's Jon's home too. Take a look at the crypts, they all look like this guy. Those creepy trees, Jon feels at home. Even the word snow that sometimes falls in the summer is reminiscent of who's kingdom this truly is. So I think it's a lot, just a heap of mind fucks on poor Cat.

 

I actually think Hoster was rather brilliant, or perhaps lucky. It did involve selling his two daughters to the meat market however. Which like obviously grime, we get it you can't pimp out your baby brother, but your really gonna sell your damaged daughters? (Lysa obviously was just fucked since adolescence, but Cat, again Brandon just died! Like can the lady grieve without you morphing feelings for Stark?) But the outcome of Hosters whorehouse was basically the field of asoiaf. About half of the power of the realm is in Tully hands now and without claiming a crown for their own they have largely controlled the narrative of Westeros

Something during Catelyn's first chapter in ASOS says that Hoster wasn't the type to sire illegitimate kids, so I would imagine that Hoster would disapprove of Walder's open acknowledgement of them. As far as selling both daughters, he chose to follow through Catelyn's betrothal with Brandon by swapping Ned in, but with Lysa, he could have chosen to marry her away from the land of the schmuck who sired a bastard on her, who Hoster knew was a bad influence.

5 hours ago, Nevets said:

Many people know what Sansa looks like.  She was a prominent figure at Court until her disappearance, which wasn't that long ago.  It's not like Arya, who nobody paid attention to in Kings Landing, and has been gone from the North for two years or so.  And people who knew her from Winterfell are dead or imprisoned.

Arya couldn't pretend to be her anyway.  The descriptions aren't even close.  In any case, Sansa is learning the arts of politics and exerting influence.  She's being set up by Martin to be a player.  She'll probably reveal herself when she's good and ready.

Always wondered how disguising Jeyne as "Arya" would be pulled off and allowed. Technically Ramsay would be bedding an 11-year-old.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I mean kinda, although that's a bit like saying that asoiaf is disguised version of Richard III. Definitely parallels with Murdoch but I see way more King Leer..

Although I disagree with a bunch of what you were saying too. (Not Cox being fantastic, obviously he is. This actor is so scary, just wow. Entire cast is phenomenon) 

For instance Eddard was a terrible dad to the girls, he used em as bait like a fisherman. He left Bran in a coma, sent Jon to jail and threatened Theon with death every day. 

Where as Walder actually did look out for his kids, even the fuck ups like Merrett were allowed to stay at home. Even the bastards. Walder Frey was a mean grandfather, but as a dad he surprisingly looked out. 

I'm on the fence with Maekor, it seems like he made the correct decision, but idk. But even if he was good to Egg, by letting him travel the country with a stranger and a liar, he banished his other son who's misery sent him into the cups of wildfire.

But we can agree, that Hoster was a douchebag

Do you think it's possible that Catelyn dislikes Jon because Ned looked out for him like Walder and Hoster made his dislike of Walder's practices plain?

Hoster wasn't just a jerk but also an idiot.