Vaegon the dragonless

They're is one thing that Balon did that was intelligent, creating the Iron Fleet, after that it is just stupid after stupid with a bit of luck. His first rebellion got him nothing but the death of is elder sons and is youngest and now heir out of is home. The second rebellion was poorly planned and he ignored is greatest asset, Theon, he basically gives Theon, who knows and has grew in the North nothing to do, will Asha takes a single Castle and Victarion takes a key position. The problem with that key position is that the crannogmen will bleed them dry. Also a army of Northmen was being assembled and would have easly destroyed Asha before attacking Victarion from the North. The only reason that did not happen is because Theon, one of the three not completely idiotic Greyjoy's (he is far from intelligent but he is not a moron), decides one is own accord to come up with a plan to take the heart of the North. Theon succeds but then drops the ball and does not leaving with plunder and hostage like he should, but he at least forces Rodrick to siege Winterfell, the fact that by pure chance Ramsay was a prisonner, that Theon believed him and send him to the Dreadfort is absolutly and completely lucked based. And it is Ramsay's that beats the second northen army by trickery. If Ramsay dies or if Theon does not believe him, Rodrick takes back Winterfell, Bran and Rickon come out of hiding and the North is no longuer on immediate danger, depending on the timeline Robbs does not have is grieved induced fuck up (literally) and keeps the Frey's with him, and Catelyn does not let Jaime go free so the Karstark are still here. Robb can still go back North to clean up or leave it to Roderick with the second northen army. So Balon's whole plan was doomed and it was only saved by the iniative of Theon, who was shunned and ignored by Balon, absolutly not part of is plan. People forget that Rodericks army was only beaten by Ramsay trickery and that it was not fully assembled, if Ramsay is not there then that second army contains the ironborn until the war in the South is decided, and once the war in the south is decided, who ever won is going to come for Balon because he is alone. Balon's plan was just bad and it took a massive amount of luck to old long enought for him to kick the bucket.

Yes the Crownlands are small, but only compared to the other kingdoms, if we compare the Crownlands to Flanders, the modern day Flanders is about ten times smaller then the Crownlands, and modern day Flanders is bigger then historical Flanders, so if the Crownlands has a population density close to that of Flanders its population could be pretty massive. Yeah the Reach is most likely absolutely massive, and could one alone almost any combination of two other kingdoms, the fact that it is most of the time pretty fractured is at the same time the bane and savior of the King's of Westeros.

Yeah the importance of Flanders was in trade but also in population, thats how they managed to play all three main powers of the time against each other, in fact two of the groups part of the crusades where from the broader low lands region, 1 from Flanders it self. And I think that is also the fact for the Crownlands, tho at a lesser extent, that is why I put the Crownlands so far up my list and migth actually be higher in my mind. Like I said, I think the North is just that much more empty then you think it is, but that is only a point of view. I believe that both are quite a bit more populated then the Westerlands, I would say maybe the Riverlands have only a little more population density but they are quite put down by the fact they are in the middle of conflicts, but after a long period of peace and in summer I would say that the Riverlands have maybe 1,5 to 2 times the population of the Westerlands. The Reach is most likely absolutly massive, I mean to field 80 000 men, the base population must be pretty massive, I would say that the Reach as at least 2 times the population of the Riverlands.

Oh they where also quite big, especially for northen europe, London had around 80 000 people in the fourteenth century, Ghent had 60 000, Bruges 45 000 and at least 8 other city's where around 10 000 people. Venice had around 100 000 people in the 15th century and Genoa was about 85 000, so clearly the flemish city's were not small, sure they were bigger city's but that many big to medium sized city's in a small area is important, in fact almost 45% of the population of Flanders was urban in the 14th century. Yes and no, I mean both city's were absolutly part of the international system of trade, the ironborn in contrast are at the extreme fringe of it, that makes a big difference. Yes we agreed on that, the point about it was that you put the North has having a bigger population then the Westerlands, but the Westerlands are behind the Reach and Riverlands for sure.

Oh I agree big time that Tywin was already planning to make sure Joffrey's reign was a short one, I tend to agree to the theory that Tywin was at least a far hand in the death of Joffrey in the actual timeline.

I well then comes the problem of where does all the people that work in the vineyards and industry's of wine ? And those mariners ? So the Arbour would at least need a few very large town that put together would at least equal one of the three great city's of Westeros. I disagree with your idea that Belgium had no great city's in the medieval ages, I live nearby and from the top of my head Bruges, Ypres, Tournai, Lille, Antwerp, Courtrai or Gent where all pretty important urban centers, in fact the flemish city's are hugely important in french, english and germans history because of they're importance. Venice and Genoa both add large interlands and imported food too, they where traders, and most of the time people turn to trade when farming is not sufficient because the lands are not good enought. They also produced food and not a particular kind of crop that needs a lot of work but cant actually feed that people easely. And both those city's imported food too, as well as trading it, so I dont think the two situation are comparable. Yes it is, but since you dint seem convince that the Westerlands, who live on that shit ton of gold, would have a big population I tought you would not think of it a justification but that could be a reason.

I dont think so, he might have had a chance if he was there immediatly after the death of Robert, but Joff had a taste of complete power with is incompetent mother, so Tywin would have maybe been capable of reigning im in for a time, but in the end Joffrey would have gone back to is old way after the regency or at best when Tywin eventually dies.

The problem with the Arbour is that its main product, wine, is a very labour intensive industry, so for them to have that industry in addition to a navy, well the population on that island must be absolutly massive, to the point where they would have to import almost all they're food, it just does not really work, sure they most likely have the money but still hard to believe, at least for me. And sure it would have high density but to have that population on that small island then it should have at least one city the size of White Arbour but it does not seem so. Again I agree that the Iron Islands is a problem, and again i would say that even if ot does not work the iron island has that kind of population because Georges said so. Even if does not make sense, after all decades long winter's are also impossible but we can accept those.

And it would still make most of the lands empty, especially if they are small village of a 100 or less. I mean yeah, they live in better lands, I would say that them having a population density like the ones of northen Italy or the low-country's would be about right, and since both of them have more land even if they had the same density they would still have more people. That could explain the royal fleet but the Arbour is not that big tho, and I dont think they would recruit from the rest of the Reach because well, the Hightower's have they're own fleet and the Shield also have another fleet, so outside of the Arbour the recruiting pools seem already used by other navy's. And yeah again the Iron Island dont make any sense, forget about the people that man the ships, there is no wood on these island pretty damn hard to built ships without wood, and since the places that they could buy wood from are the same that they would raid...

Thanks for the map, the ones I saw made it seem like the Stormlands was bigger, but if we go by yours I can see that Dorne is in fact bigger, but that it also has a lot less farmable land then the Stormlands, so I would still maintain that the Stormlands as a bigger population, also the Crownlands are all farmable lands except Cracklaw point so I would still say they have quite a few argument for high population. Yes there are some villages, but we see barely any of them during the extensive travels we see in the North, so even if you have a village every thousand miles, that would still be mainly empty, in contrast when Brienne travels the Crownlands it seem that not a day pass with out her seing a settlement, so yeah I would still say the North is virtually empty. It does not really change my point, if it is possible for medieval England it is most likely possible for the West. Heck it could be more since Lannisport is supposedly bigger then London was in 1300 I agree that tens of thousands is most likely too much for Duskendale, I was exagerating, but something in the low ten thousands would seem alright to me, and I agree most of the population is not in towns, that indicates that they are even more people outside of those that we dont see, but a big number of towns gives us a idea of how well populated is a region. Again the problem is G.R.R.M and numbers, he seem to do what he really wants to with the numbers of army's and population, I mean the number of people required to maintain a fleet like the Redwyne fleet or the Royal Fleet makes them almost impossible, same for the Ironborn, so I dont think it is really useful to use military numbers to look for population numbers, at least not on there own.

Can I have a link to the map or figures you are using, because from most the maps I find I would say that Dorne is never more then 25/30% bigger then the Stormlands, also like I said, Dorne is 75% mountain and desert with almost no population so it still would have a small population. The lack of city in the Stormlands would put them in the bottom of the regions wich is what I did. The Crownlands are really as fertile has the Riverlands since historically it mostly was in the same region. And I would say that yes the Crownlands are clearly more populated then the Stormlands or Dorne, Kings Landing its self is around Half a million, Duskendale is considered a large town and Driftmark can support to decent size towns. So clearly most of the Crownlands are populated and have a good number of town in addition to the largest city on the continent so yeah I would put them up there population wise. Also I think you might be a bit to focus on historical population numbers, G.R.R.M is not really that good with numbers and I doubt he took the time to look at the historical population numbers to make is world (especially in a pre-internet world). Not only compared to other places, it is full stop, most of the time we see travel in the North it is thru vast empty spaces, and you take the population density of Canada, but that is today where most of the population lives in city, it is not the case for the North, so yeah the North is empty, even along the Kings Road, the major artery to the south we seen very little villages and no town until the Winter Town wich is also empty. Every thing about the North screams that it is almost completely empty, but it is so large that it still has a big population. Actually the same density population as England for the West is almost perfect, since that is the historical parallel most often used, so yeah I could see that, and that would give the North 4 people per square mile, which when we see how empty it is is actually not that extravagant, so yeah I would still say that the West is a bit more populated then the North. Yes but the Riverlands have a huge number of big city's at least compare to the other regions, towns like Maidenpool, Stoney Sept, Fairmarket, Harrentown, Harroway town could have develloped into city if the region was more stable and with a Charter, in opposition the North only has two towns after the city of White Harbour, and one of them is almost empty. Dorne has two and the Stormlands one. And Yes Kings Landing is ridiculously big, but it does not mean that all other towns in the area are glorified villages, they are town in there own right, Newark is still a decent size city even if it is just next to New York, we dont know exactly the size of those towns so they could still have ten's of thousand of people in them. The Iron Island have two, Pebbleton and Lordsport, but maintaining a huge fleet and having a huge empire is not really the most relevent of things, after all Belgium controlled the Congo, and I dont think anyone would make the argument that Belgium has a bigger or had a bigger population then the Congo.

Even if it is the sparest, the way you calculate sparsity is by taking the whole population, and looking how many people they are per square mile/km, the lower the number, the sparest the population is. So if Dorne is the sparest populated and is not that much bigger then the other regions, then to me it has the smallest population. Also Dorne as only 2 population center's that are of some sort of size, the Shadow City and Planky Town, both seem to be decent size city's but are not on any level close to a population center like King's Landing, that tells me that even if the population is concentrated, it is not concentrated to the point where all the population is in a couple urban centers. I would also had that to me Dorne is only a bit bigger then the Stormlands, but not both the Stormlands and Crownlands, and both are not 75% mountains and desert. The Crownlands having the biggest city on the continent and a number of big towns like Duskendale and Hull makes me believe that the population of the region is quite high and is most likely the most densely populated area on the continent, so even with its small size it is most likely above Dorne and the Iron Islands, maybe even the Stormlands. And you might be right about the Iron Island but I would say that they is more on the side of Dorne being less populated then the Iron Island but It could go either way. Again you might be right but since it seems like large area of the North is completely empty, even in the south after a long summer (Look at the early chapters of the journey to Kings Landing, Robert comments on that), So while it as a large population I would say that it still not the most populated by some extent. And I would not be surprised if it actually had it, I mean the West should be full of small mining town, access to the Sea and one the biggest towns in the continent, and its lands are said to be hilly but they could still be farmable and support a big population, like a said population density is population divided by area, and the North is bloody huge, so lets say the North has a population density of lets say 20 people per km that would mean that the West would have around 100, not exactly a huge gap (the modern density of the Scottish Highlands for exemple is between 20 and 100, you cant actually see the difference on a map) Again Im not only looking at the supposed population density but also at the presence of urban centers and how farmable is the land, if you have quite a few town and city's then the chances are that your population is quite high, and out of the 9 regions (7 kingdoms, the Iron Island, the North, the Vale, the Rock, the Reach, the Stormland and Dorne (technically a principality). The you had the Riverlands (traditionnaly its own kingdom but united with the iron island at the time of the conquest) and the Crownlands cut from both the Stormlands and Riverlands in addition to Aegon's original lands) only Dorne, the Stormlands and the Iron Islands dont have a city, the Riverlands get a pass because they have multiples big towns, something the others dont seem to have and more of a Status reason.

If we are talking by population size, my guess would be: Dorne: Repeatedly told that it is the less populous and outside the red mountains and the green blood, it seems that it is almost completely empty. Iron Island: It seem like they dont have a huge population and it would be hard to maintain a big population even if they can fish the hell out of the sea around them, also the size of the island is limited, and taking slaves can only help so much. Crownlands: It seem like it is quite well populated and have way's to feed that population, and having Kings landing helps but it is just too small in size. Stormlands: We dont here a lot about the Stormlands but they seem full of forest and they dont have any town, to me that tells use that they are on the smaller side of population spectrum. Vale: The Vale proper seem fairly heavly populated but the rest of the territory seem to be made of a lot of cliffs and mountains so that would limit its population by some margin, It also is one of the smaller kingdoms, but the fact they have a city shows it is still well populated. North: Even if it is sparsely populated it is supposed to be has big has all the other kingdoms combined, so that still gives them a big population, I would put them ahead of the Vale, but not by much, because of the fact they have in addition to a city, White Harbour, one other town of note, Barrowton, something we dont here about in the Vale, so I would put the North a little ahead in pure numbers. Westerlands: It seems like it is quite densely populated even if it is composed of a lot of mountain's and hills, they have the third biggest town and decent farm lands in the south, but I dont think they have a massive advantage compare to the North or Vale, but still a confortable lead. Riverlands: The Riverlands are some of the most populous and fertile lands of Westeros, we have many town that could have been city's but dont have the privileges to become them, the main problem is that they are in a place were war is fought quite often, but that does not impact population that much in the long term, after all the region of Germany near the French border is extremely well populated, even if it was the place most of the wars between the two where fought, so Yeah I would say the Riverlands are a not so close second but far ahead of the Westerlands, they could actually be close to first if the Crownlands where added to them. Reach: Like quite a few people said, it is the most fertile and the second biggest kingdom, it has the second biggest city and quite a few towns, so its population must be quite high and a easy number one.

Will I agree both of them were most likely monster's, or at least bad people, I think that they might be something that overlooked about there story. They are the bad guys for both sides of the conflict, so both sides gain from making Ulf and Hugh particularly horrid, the Green because that justifies the fact they murdered them, and the Blacks, well because they betrayed them. So they're is a chance that the story's of Ulf raping 3 maiden's every night and Hugh nailing horseshoe's to people heads could be invention to justify the actions taking against them, because lets remember that the whole Green army was sacking Tumbleton, and most likely that most of the green commander's at least turned a blind eye to the atrocities. So while I would agree that the betrayer's are most likely evil, in universe, the way they are portrayed is most likely worse then they actually where.

Yes most of the Redwyne fleet is a merchant fleet, but that was the norm during the middle age, at Arnemuiden and latter at Sluys both fleets were mainly composed of merchant ships enrolled and filled with men at arms, so the whole thing of putting a bunch of men on a merchant ships using this as a warships as been used in real life and seems to be also the norm in Westeros, sure if you have specialised ships, it is better to use them for the combat but merchant ships are not completely useless and have been in fact used affectively. And there is no such thing as specialised marines, a marine is simply a foot-soldier on a ship, specialisation only happened latter in history. Also merchant ships are not that slow, sure some are slower then war ships, but with out cargo I dont expect a trading galley to be slower then a longship, in fact I would say it might be faster. So Yes using merchant ships, as been done, can be effective and would be done, why would there numbers be even mentioned when talking about the Redwyne fleet if they cant be used to some extend in war. Also about the longships, I am repeating myself, but they are not warships, they dont have ram or scorpion or catapults, they are fast yes, they have experienced crews that know how to fight yes. But they dont seem to be that much sturdier then other ships we see, in fact Aeron remembers how easely is ship was cut i half by the Fury (Sure it is a ship a lot stronger then is own but still I dont remember that happening at any other moment in the story) and it dint seem to even slow down. So Im sorry but no the longships both in real life and in Planetos are not warships, they can and have been used in war, even effectively but they are not designed and build for war, they are versatile ships and very useful but not a warship. The Iron fleet is suppose to counter the "greenlanders" warships yes, but they dont have a good track record against them, and they are not just slightly smaller, their are slightly smaller then the smaller ships in the war fleets of Westeros, they are heavely outclassed by the stronger ships of the westerosi ships. And will yes the ironborn have been capable of boarding and defeating transports, but there decline since before the arrival in power of the Hoares shows to me that they are not really a threat, since they lost island and lands again and again until they manage to reform a bit and take the Riverlands. And I disagree that it would cost that much, and I would even argue that it would unite the rest of the realm against a common foe, it historically worked both in real life and in the series, the Greyjoy rebellion and Dornish wars seem to me that those wars have done a lot to unite Westeros under the Targaryen, and like a said in my original plan, I would make it so that the ironborn are pushed to revolt, thuse not being the aggressor. And like a said I expect the cost to be not as expensive as you, I think we can agree to disagree at least on that point, so the collapse of the rest of the realm should not happen, especially since I could even use the faith difference. I agree that it would most likely make them go into religious fanatism mode, wich would also give me perfect justification, in for the rest of Westeros (Again never give me any power I would be horrible). And again I disagree with the suppose wealth they bring but I think we while have to agree to disagree on that point too. I disagree about the Stony Shore being filled with fishermen, they're is quite a few villages but filled seem like a gross exageration, I would say it is under-populated. And yes those waters are fished, but not to the extent that they could be because who want to live somewhere were every 50 years or so see raiders come, rape all the women, killing almost everyone and take the children and women they fancy back as slaves. Yeah I would rather stick to the interior too.