Crona

8 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Okay.  But.  Why would they not say this in front of Barristan?

Well, I haven’t quite figured out the situation yet. They did express that they believe Tatters would hurt them but I am not sure why they would think that. If they had betrayed the Windblown then I can see why they are hesitant to meet the Windblown. However, why didn’t they tell Barristan? Well it’s a secret that needs to be hidden from him too..

20 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Gerris objected because he blames Dany for Quentyn's death. Arch convinced him that it was (a) a matter of their own survival and (b) that if Dany's regime were destroyed then Quentyn died for nothing.

This is the section:

Honestly, I think GRRM just doesn’t know if he wants him alive or dead. There is one thing I want to point out:

In the Dragontamer chapter, Quentyn, Gerris, and Arch all wear brass masks

"I'll be the bull," Arch announced.

Quentyn handed him the bull mask. "The lion for me."

"Which makes a monkey out of me." Gerris pressed the ape mask to his face. "How do they breathe in these things?"

"Just put it on." The prince was in no mood for japes.

Quentyn wears the mask while going into the dragon pit and doesn't take off the mask.  This scene with the brass mask in the dragonpit is also in the 2021 a song of ice and fire calendar (just Google it)

Here is a description of what happens to someone who has the mask on while being burned:

The crossbowman was fumbling for another quarrel as the dragon's teeth closed around his neck. The man wore the mask of a Brazen Beast, the fearsome likeness of a tiger. As he dropped his weapon to try and pry apart Viserion's jaws, flame gouted from the tiger's mouth. The man's eyes burst with soft popping sounds, and the brass around them began to run. The dragon tore off a hunk of flesh, most of the sellsword's neck, then gulped it down as the burning corpse collapsed to the floor.

So the brass melts

Here is the body Barristan sees:

How can you tell? He has no lips. It would have been kinder if the dragons had devoured him. That at least would have been quick. This … Fire is a hideous way to die. Small wonder half the hells are made of flame. "Cover him."

the old knight peeled back the coverlet for one last look at Quentyn Martell's face, or what remained of it. So much of the prince's flesh had sloughed away that he could see the skull beneath. His eyes were pools of pus. 

No mention of melted brass 

here is the section they found his body:

Neither of the Dornishmen had offered any resistance. Archibald Yronwood had been cradling his prince's scorched and smoking body when the Brazen Beasts had found him, as his burned hands could testify. He had used them to beat out the flames that had engulfed Quentyn Martell. Gerris Drinkwater was standing over them with sword in hand, but he had dropped the blade the moment the locusts had appeared. "They share a cell.

At his command, Quentyn Martell had been laid out in the queen's own bed. He had been a knight, and a prince of Dorne besides. It seemed only kind to let him die in the bed he had crossed half a world to reach. The bedding was ruined—sheets, covers, pillows, mattress, all reeked of blood and smoke, but Ser Barristan thought Daenerys would forgive him.

Missandei sat at the bedside. She had been with the prince night and day, tending to such needs as he could express, giving him water and milk of the poppy when he was strong enough to drink, listening to the few tortured words he gasped out from time to time, reading to him when he fell quiet, sleeping in her chair beside him. Ser Barristan had asked some of the queen's cupbearers to help, but the sight of the burned man was too much for even the boldest of them. And the Blue Graces had never come, though he'd sent for them four times. Perhaps the last of them had been carried off by the pale mare by now

No mention of any mask or melted brass

So what happened to Quentyn's mask? 
 

I think GRRM wants to keep the possibility Quentyn alive open so he can use him if he needs it. 

17 hours ago, frenin said:

Beats me, Drogo (this one sarcastically), Viserys and Illyrio only talk about gifting Viserys, up to 10k Dothraki.

I very much doubt there was a deal in which Drogo agreed to part with that sizeable part of his army to cross the sea, nor do i see Drogo as the type of man who makes promises he does not intend the fullfil.

I think there was some informal talks pf mutual assistance and that's about it and the Illyrio sold the GC a dream.

Even after sending the poisoner, in Drogo's plans he wasn't linking up with Illyrio either, nor did Illyrio made contact with him.

We are just going to have to disagree here, I have just a different interpretation of things. I think George had put that line with Tristan Rivers there for the readers to understand Illyrio's movements (and his own). Maybe in AGOT, he did not have all of the plans fleshed out, but by ADWD he definitely wanted us to think this was Illyrio's and Drogo's deal. In AGOT, maybe he was toying with a different idea for Drogo but by ADWD, it appears (to me) the deal between them was 50k dothraki. 

Your interpretation is that Illyrio lied to the Golden Company and had given Dany (and 3 dragons eggs) for 10k dothraki.  If the deal was to give Viserys 10k dothraki, why didn't he give it to Viserys? And when the Golden Company realize this, they would just have to deal with it. This is also for a war that he wants to crown Aegon/Viserys.

39 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He would have assumed she attacked the cities in Slaver's Bay to amass herself an army of freed slaves and Unsullied to go take the IT. That was not so flawed a supposition, since that was her plan until Meereen and she learned what was becoming of Astapor. And to take her army to the IT she would have required a fleet. Slaver's bay does not really have a fleet. Volantis does.

I remember now, that makes sense! Illyrio gets a lot of flack but its pretty hard to guess what people do next.  

54 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

The deal was gifting 10k to Viserys, afaik. And using them to get the Iron Throne, Drogo has no intentions to do either anyway.

Whe Dany's life is threatened, his plan is raping a few villages, buy himself boats and ship off, again neither Ilyrio nor Aegon come up in his line of thinking.

Well then why was the Golden Company expecting 50k dothraki? Was Illyrio planning on the Golden Company to not notice they were short a significant amount of dothraki (Strickland does not seem to be the type to agree on less). There was a deal struck between Drogo and Illyrio. For Drogo, he got an Valyrian wife for his prophecy and for Illyrio, he was promised an army. It could be that Drogo was not intending on fullfilling his end of the bargain, however that was changed when they sent the poisoner. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

 

But Illyrio does think of the siblings and expendable and easily manageables... and they keep surprising him at every turn, Viserys willing himself to the Dothraki sea and getting killed there, Dany surviving the Dothraki sea (Illyrio expected her to die there) and emerging a conqueror and a mother of dragons.

 

That's the whole issue. Illyrio makes these deals but he underestimates them at every turn. He believes Viserys would agree to allow Aegon to be king because he views Viserys as pathetic and would jump at the chance to go home again. Not knowing how truly mad Viserys was.

He did not think Dany would be important, but she ends up hatching dragons.  Illyio learns of this, he sends ships to her and bring her back to Pentos. But instead she goes to Slaver's Bay. Now, for some reason he thought Dany would be in Volantis, but she is not. Only Aegon shows up. 

4 hours ago, frenin said:

It's all over the first part of the book honestly.

Dany feared him but still had the Stockholm syndrome because he had been her primary caretaker all her life. That only goes away while at the Dothraki sea once Viserys starts to well... be him.

But during the first half, Dany is still pretty attached to Viserys.

I think we are talking about two different things, I am talking about control of the Dothraki.  Viserys did not have power over the Dothraki. 

4 hours ago, frenin said:

 

Drogo made a deal, that he did, whatever the terms of the deal were, we do not know.

What we do know is that he had no intention to cross the Narrow Sea, he'd have even less intentions if his wifw, who he has started to like and listening, is opposed to the idea and or Aegon.

 

We do know part of the deal was that Drogo was going to give Illyrio 50k Dothraki screamers, but he only had about 40k or so (it was definitely lower than 50k), he was probably planning to get more dothraki. Which Illyrio in turn was planning to give to Viserys to take command of. So it doesn't necessarily mean Drogo was going to cross the Narrow Sea. When Dany was almost poisoned and Drogo decided to go to the Narrow Sea, this effectively made Viserys useless (although he was dead already).

4 hours ago, frenin said:

He needs Viserys and he needs Dany.

JonCon in or by himself wouldn't be enough to actually carry people in normal circumstances. If Viserys and Dany were to put their claims aside for this stranger... that's another matter.

But again, I don't think Illyrio had any sort of plan, just ideas and a lot of riches to throw at people.

 

 I think you are putting too much importance on Viserys and Dany (Dany did not have any dragons at this point). At the end of the day, Illyrio could simply tell them either they can join them or get lost in Essos and Viserys and Dany would have nothing.  If Viserys was really important then Illyrio would have been more adamant for Viserys to stay with him after the marriage. 

Illyrio did have plans, he said that his plan took years that Viserys messed up. Although, he had a difficult guessing what they would do next. I mean how is he supposed to know that Viserys would be stupid enough to threaten Dany in front of Drogo. 

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

Maybe but till he burned all his bridges with Dany in the Dothrakki see, he still had seniority over her.

I do not recall this. From the reading, he does not have any "seniority" over Dany or really anyone in the Dothraki. Remember when he tried to attack Dany, one of the Dothraki had grabbed him and asked if Dany wanted to kill him. They had him sit with the old women and men etc...He only sat sometimes in a seat of honor just because he was Dany's brother. 

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

I find it very unlikely that Drogo, who by starters was already opposed to cross the Narrow Sea, goes along if his wife and brother in law oppose the plan or Aegon.

Drogo made the deal with Illyrio. That is why he gave Illyrio presents and was following the orders of Illyrio...when he married Dany, Viserys was supposed to stay with Illryio till Drogo and Dany come back from Vaes Dothrak. At the time, Illryio wanted to delay..

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

Without his uncles' endorsement...  Aegon starts looking like just another Blackfyre pretender easly dealt with during the last quarter of a century.

He doesn't necessarily need Viserys, he does have Jon Connington the former hand that confirms who he is. He would also have Dany (she is already married to Drogo and I doubt Viserys would be able to take her from Drogo). 

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I think the text points to an intention to unite the three. Dany with 3 dragon eggs and Viserys backing Aegon would have added to the legitimacy of Aegon. Illyrio misjudged both Dany and Viserys: he thought of her as no more than fearful pretty eye-candy and Viserys as easily to be manipulated with flattery. 

That's what I got from the text too:

Which plan? The fat man’s plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns? First Viserys Targaryen was to join us with fifty thousand Dothraki screamers at his back. Then the Beggar King was dead, and it was to be the sister, a pliable young child queen who was on her way to Pentos with three new-hatched dragons. Instead the girl turns up on Slaver's Bay and leaves a string of burning cities in her wake, and the fat man decides we should meet her by Volantis. Now that plan is in ruins as well. I have had enough of Illyrio’s plans. Robert Baratheon won the Iron Throne without the benefit of dragons. We can do the same.

35 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

The problem with any plan to combine the two military forces is Viserys, who Illyrio knows is useless, but who wouldn't tolerate being pushed aside for Aegon: after all, Viserys probably remembers that his father named him heir, even if nobody else would care about that given laws of primogeniture and general merit. I would expect the intention would be for Viserys to be quietly disposed of once he served his purpose, that purpose being essentially to unite the Dothraki and Golden Company, and impart his established legitimacy to Aegon as claimant (since Aegon is generally believed dead, Viserys recognising him as his nephew would go a long way to answering any questions in that regard).

Viserys has no allies, not even the Dothraki were his after the wedding. They do not need an elaborate plot to get rid of Viserys, either he agrees to go to Westeros under the Targaryen banner or he stays in Essos as the Beggar King. 

36 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

All of that I can, increasingly cautiously, get on board with. Where I draw the line is where this morphs into "Dany is not the real Dany", and from there into "Rhaegar is not Aerys's son" and now apparently to "Quentyn is not the real Quentyn": it seems that if some of the theorists here are to be believed, unswapped babies are rarer than swapped ones.

I do have an alternate suggestion, that this means Dorne, Illyrio, Braavos and Tyrosh are in an alliance against the Iron Throne. This means Varys was actually working for Dorne in KL. 

I just remember before the show ended, a lot of posters believed the ENTIRE story was about either Jon or Dany and suggesting different was heavily criticized. Dorne, Aegon, Bran, and Ironborn being downplayed. When the finale came out, (and it was George's idea), a lot of this died down lol. 

After thinking this over, I think the lemon tree significance  means there was a conspiracy between Dorne, Braavos and Tyrosh.

Dany unrolled the parchment and examined it again. Braavos. This was done in Braavos, while we were living in the house with the red door. Why did that make her feel so strange?

When presented with the pact, she says the pact was made when they were both at the house with the red door. 

Dany and Vis left the house with the red door when she was 5. 

Doran wrote the letter to Quentyn that he will rule Dorne when Arianne was 14 years old (Viserys is the same age, and Dany would have been 6 when this letter was written, which was after they had been kicked out of the house with the red door). 

After they left the house with the red door they went to:
They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place. Her brother would not allow it. The Usurper's hired knives were close behind them, he insisted, though Dany had never seen one.
At first the magisters and archons and merchant princes were pleased to welcome the last Targaryens to their homes and tables, but as the years passed 

Doran wanted to send Arianne to Tyrosh to meet Viserys in secret, this didn't go through but there was a green haired girl in the water gardens (did someone else go instead?):

"That green-haired girl was the Archon's daughter. I was to have sent you to Tyrosh in her place. You would have served the Archon as a cupbearer and met with your betrothed in secret, but your mother threatened to harm herself if I stole another of her children, and I . . . I could not do that to her."

The brother of the Archon did attend Dany's wedding

Illyrio whispered to them. "Those three are Drogo's bloodriders, there," he said. "By the pillar is Khal Moro, with his son Rhogoro. The man with the green beard is brother to the Archon of Tyrosh, and the man behind him is Ser Jorah Mormont."

What did Doran give or promise to Braavos and Tyrosh? 
 

I never looked into the Lemongate stuff, so I have no skin it.

But in regards to Dany living with Sealord of Braavos, what would be the point of hiding it? The quote posted by @Frey family reunion, when was that quote made?

Q: Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn’t really grow in Braavos’ cold, foggy climate.  Is this discrepancy significant?  Does it point to future revelations about Dany’s past?  Thank you so much.

GRRM: Very perceptive of you.

Yes, it does point to … well, that would be telling.

Was that before ADWD? If so, then he’s probably hiding Arianne and Viserys marriage pact. If that quote is after ADWD then I have no idea why he would hide that. I mean he could also just say those climate limitations are not found in the Sealord of Braavos estate. 

On 3/19/2023 at 5:35 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

Connotations are not necessarily relevant in wordplay. A crystal = a mineral = a stone. If it's a good enough synonym to be used in a crossword, then it should be good enough for George. Also, I don't think we should expect him to be anything other than subtle in his games. He's on the record as saying as much himself.  So unless you want a character to hang a literal stone or pebble between their breasts, then this is the most plausible in-world representation of having a character with a 'stone' near their 'heart'.

I suspect the deeper issue here is a refusal to see that a game is in fact being played between author and reader.

100% agree this story is a game between the author and reader. Btw very good eye! It didn’t occur to me that Lady Stoneheart mirrors Lemore, but it goes well with what I think happened (Lemore’s child was killed instead of Elia’s, just my personal theory). I think this quote really goes the Stoneheart mirroring: 

Lemore had changed out of her septa's robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

Kind of unrelated but I was also thinking of a connection between Gilly and Septa Lemore. With the crew of the Shy Maid mirroring the crew of the Cinnamon Wind (Griff being Sam, Tyrion as Daeron, Haldon as Maester Aemon, Aemon (baby) is Aegon, Ysilla, yandry, and Duck being the captain, captain’s mate and daughter).

I honestly don’t know.
The dance of the dragons had both sides with dragons, could this mean Aegon’s side will have a dragon? Who would ride it? Arianne or Aegon? There has to be a reason for the 3 heads of the dragon, it may have something to do with Aegon, since when he was born Rhaegar says he that needed one more. Dany even thinks there are two others out there that will ride her dragons. I know people think it’s Tyrion as the third dragon rider, but in Moqurro’s vision, he saw him snarling in between the dragons. The Toland girl saw dragon(s) dancing and people dying.

Tyrion will go to the side that gives him the most power and a ruler he would be able to manipulate. He can manipulate Aegon pretty good but can he manipulate Dany? Can he manipulate Aegon with Varys, Illyrio and Jon Con present? Or is Tyrion going to play both sides (Moqurro’s vision).

Who’s left in Westeros? Stannis/Roose, Euron, LF, Mace, Doran, Varys, Illyrio, and Cersei. They might instigate the entire war to get rid of both Aegon and Dany…and they will probably succeed therefore destroying the Targaryen lineage. 

Maybe Jon was supposed to be the Lord Commander that Dany and Aegon meet to bring them all together against the Others…but since he’s incapacitated, it won’t work.

And this why we are getting THAT ending..

On 10/29/2022 at 6:51 PM, Winterfell is Burning said:

The men are the ones having the bastards, though. And even then, they are rarely acknowledged, specially if the man is already married. Rhaenyra having bastards and acknowledging them publicly would be enough to make the Velaryons dissolve the marriage if they wanted to, have her branded as a whore in the eyes of most people, and have her political situation be unsustainable.

Really, the whole issue is that Rhaenyra shouldn't have had children in the first place, it ends or at least reduces a lot the risk of a succession crisis, since Aegon is the heir anyway. Particularly in the show, where they age difference is pretty much mother and child.

Oh yes I agree that she shouldn’t have kids in the first place anyway especially if she has moon tea. But this is the plot point George made. Apparently, only the Hightowers had an issue with it, not half the realm. I mean Daeron was suspected as a bastard and there was a rebellion to put a more targ like king, Daemon on the throne. 

I find Corlys’ excuse for wanting Luc to inherit driftmark pretty unbelievable due to this. The show tried to make sense of it lol

I thought the show was fine and entertaining, not great but I enjoy the parts they adapt from the books. What can I say, I’m a huge fan of these books lol…Edit: I’m a big fan of how they are portraying the dragons. I feel like most people think of them as some kind of pets but no they are more than just animals.

Also, I found it amusing talking to people about this show. I had asked one of my friends if she thought Aemond stole Vhagar and she was like ‘“well he didn’t steal her, but Rhaena had first dibs on riding Vaghar and Vaghar liked Aemond because he had a good heart” lmao

I know this is going to be unpopular but my original issue with Rhaenyra is that kings and princes have bastards all the time and they are not legitimate. When Rhaenyra had her children, they should have been acknowledged as bastards instead of being in line of the throne. 

I really didn’t like the ending then realized it wasn’t that bad. I have to take my book reader glasses off. Criston getting away with this? Joffrey posed a danger to Rhaenyra and the Velaryons are ok with it because it covers Laenor. 

4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

 

Isn’t this the same director for both episodes? It was very similar to this episode. 

I think this was the weakest episode so far.  Viserys getting the idea of marrying Laenor to Rhaenyra just now does not seem like an organic idea, he should have thought of this in the previous episode to appease Corlys. It feels like manufactured drama and angst.

Also the crab feeder was totally underwhelming which he should be, idk how Daemon was losing to him with two dragons. They said that he ran into tunnels, he barely went into the tunnels and stared out like Bran. He didn’t do anything at all. Daemon having a whole bunch of people around him and not attacking him just for a setup for a dragon…there are so many things that I just didn’t like. 

On a positive note though, really happy to see the Strongs, Lannisters, Hightowers, and Joffrey 

Edit: how could I forget the PUG! All is forgiven!

I feel like they made a mistake with Alicent and Viserys marriage, I don’t understand what the rush was to remarry. They could have done it where it’s been 6 months since Alicent visits him and the entire kingdom knows and started making rumors making Corlys, Daemon, Otto and Rhaenyra angry. They could have also focused on the Hightowers being powerful too and had other houses offer their daughter’s for marriage. Idk it was just weird they were only focusing on Laena being viable.

Omg I hate what they have done with mysaria, I’m hoping somehow it would change. It’s really bad, I felt like she was more a Varys/tyanna type in the books.

everything else was fine. I felt like I was watching a weird medieval Jurassic park scene with Otto on the bridge. 

Rhaenyra was absolutely amazing, crab scenes looked cool. I have no idea what to think of the villain coming, looks cringe. I also like the portrayal of daemon and rhaenyra

14 hours ago, biosnake20 said:

George RR Martin in Conversation: HOW Interviews GRRM

This was a fantastic interview. I highly recommend for people to listen to it, I wish there was a transcript because he said some interesting stuff. One of them being besides dragon riders, there was also blood magic practitioners in Valyria that held a lot of power. He does not have a magic system but if you use magic in his world there are devastating effects. He says something very interesting about the “Faegon” term. 

He also talked about how the show is their own canon and the books are their own (which I’ve always thought anyway). He takes history as an inspiration but it’s not accurate and he is more concerned with the story. Either way, fans shouldn’t be concerned about the historical/book canon accuracy since it’s fantasy. 

31 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

That still doesn't make much sense in-universe, though.

 I think it does, Maekar killed Baelor during a tourney and I believe a few others died brutally in that tourney. 

 They did the violence on purpose to contrast the violence of birthing (battle in the birthing bed). And they allowed  Daemon getting away with cheating because he’s spoiled and nobody can call him out. This story has more symbolism and magical feeling elements than GOT. 

I think they did a pretty good job, Alicent and Rhaenyra’s friendship is a welcome change. Some parts definitely felt cringey like when Viserys talked about White Walkers.  Some of the CGI dragons looked goofy. I like the rivalry between Daemon and Otto, although Daemon is pretty unlikeable. So far I’m liking it and seeing where it goes. The show has a long way to go since they starting from Aemma’s death.