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Crona

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  1. That is actually a really good quote. I still am stickler for the voice especially when its a speaking louder "booming" and not muffled. Its one of those things that will always bother me with the Lyanna KOTL theory. Until it is confirmed then I could buy it but I just can't get over the tone of voice. The larynx does not lie. Although I guess I wouldn't put it pass GRRM since he made Tyrion complete flips. Of course I do see Rhaegar crowning Lyanna, but I am really thinking how much of a douche he is to wife, so I'm thinking of his wife, Elia.
  2. It is speculation, the type of speculation that I don't really buy considering its not said she had a deeper voice.
  3. First of all, Jaime is 16 years old at this time, you think a 16 year old Jaime can sound like Lyanna? Also, voices are not that hard to understand in fiction, usually people grow up and they understand the difference between voices. I just think that Lyanna being KOLT has a big hole due to the voice. I have yet to see anything that says Lyanna has a deep voice. That is it. I don't think of Harrenhal like that, the first thing that will pop up is that crannogman swimming over there.
  4. Yes that is what I meant. I think I got confused in this thread. So the weirwood are not actually past, or the future, it just he appears. I used the past to make it more easier to read but many have taken this literal. But yes, he's not changing the past in Harrenhal, he is just there lol
  5. We have no textual evidence that Lyanna has a deeper voice, and this was done in person, not over a phone. Phones often distort voices. As the body goes through puberty, the larynx (or voice box) grows larger and thicker. It happens in both boys and girls, but the change is more obvious in boys. Girls' voices only deepen by a couple of tones and the change is barely noticeable. Boys' voices, though, start to get much deeper.
  6. Your voice can't change that easily enough for people to mistaken you as a boy. Especially a boy after puberty, she would have needed to have a deeper voice similar to a male's voice. We do not have anything in the text that said she had a deep voice or sounded similar to a male voice. She would also need to train her voice to sound more masculine. I just think this is a big whole in the theory. If GRRM wanted it to be Lyanna, he could have said that it was high voice or something more similar. I find that Howland would sound closer to teenage Jaime, yes. Remember Jaime had already passed puberty at this time. I have been around girls all my life and I know quite a few them who have deep voices. Never will I ever think they sound like a boy who has reached puberty (in person): Before a boy reaches puberty, his larynx is pretty small and his vocal cords are kind of small and thin. That's why his voice is higher than an adult's. But as he goes through puberty, the larynx gets bigger and the vocal cords grow longer and become thicker. So there is a reason why Howland would keep the truth from his kids, because he didn't actually do it and he didn't want his kids to freak out or freak Bran out. So the thing is, you are making this about Rhaegar and Lyanna. I don't see the story wholly about these two and I don't think GRRM puts information in his novels just for the reader, its for the character. There is something here for Bran to know, not just the readers. That is why I asked what is the purpose of withholding her identify
  7. Lyanna is not a fully developed woman...she is a teenager. I don't know why you keep referring to a teenager as full developed woman. The roaring is when she and the Starks are described as wolves, like I said you can't say a wolf yelled, it would have to be roaring or howling. Her voice could be louder and deeper, it would still be a feminine voice, that I am sure many of the attendants would recognize as a woman and I am sure that a few attendants heard her when she "roared." Fanfiction and I am certain Howland would have a more booming voice I ask this because when the story is presented, Meera, Jojen and Bran do not know the identity. Jojen doesn't know either, he just says "or not.". But I ask you, what why would he tell his kids this story withhold Lyanna's identity? Lyanna and Rhaegar were already known to run off, what difference would it make if Jojen, Meera and even Bran to know Lyanna was KOLT?
  8. You still haven't told me how Lyanna could have the booming voice and why didn't Howland Reed tell his kids that its Lyanna as KOLT.
  9. Yea, and Rhaegar is not a young boy, he is in his 20s and has a kid. There is also nothing in the text that tells me that he is irresponsible or immature to be instantly attracted to a girl (teenage girl) and crowns her in front of the mother of his children. Also, in the text it says "all smiles died" and Dorne was upset over this. So I don't think Elia approved of this. Even if this had to do with prophecy, I still don't think he would be as bold to do this lol.
  10. Well we don't know if Rhaegar met the KOLT but if he did. I could see him telling Rhaegar to crown Lyanna as a favor or gave him some information pertaining to the Old Gods. I just find it very weird that he would crown Lyanna even if was attracted to her in front of his wife. Most people would keep these things as private. I think there was something more to it. Either it was something in relation to his prophecy or Aerys commanded him to do it because he the KOLT was Lyanna/Ned/Howland.
  11. I don't think he did it forcefully. Nope again, you are attributing this to something else. Howland only prayed for strength to beat the knights. Thats it. Bran seized the opportunity for his birth regardless of what occurred afterward. which was chaos, not peace not a solution to anything I already explained how this does not provide a solution the story, that it creates the problem. Varamyr's consciousness seeks out the comfortable body that's the whole point. The fact that he is still able to control his consciousness to find a body. I really don't know how else to explain this to you. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself.
  12. So you are saying he died went into the air then went into EVERYTHING at once then goes and finds his wolf. You don't think he went into the air, then the animals, then trees then went seeking for his wolf. The key here is that his consciously went out in the air and looked for something. Also the tree in Varamyr's chapter I did not refer to the trees as weirwood, only for Bran's. EDIT: I think I did mistakenly wrote the trees as weirwoods in a couple posts. I got them confused.
  13. I never said that Bran can control anyone in the past as he sees fit. YOU are saying that where in this thread have I said Bran can control anyone? I said it was Howland Reed, that is it. deus ex machina, (Latin: “god from the machine”) a person or thing that appears or is introduced into a situation suddenly and unexpectedly and provides an artificial or contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty. Bran as Howland Reed is not deus ex machina, because he is not providing a solution, he is making a problem. Without the KOLT, I doubt Lyanna would have been crowned nor would she have run off. And finally Bran is not a god, and he answers "prayers" as he sees fit in his goals.
  14. So when Bran says Hodor in Hodor's body its not Bran's voice....its Hodor's voice... Also shes not a fully developed woman..just a teenage girl with teenage hormones Edit: Another thing I never really got is what is the purpose of telling Bran KOLT story anyway? If its Lyanna, why didn't Howland tell his kids that? Lyanna and Rhaegar had ran off after the Harrenhal tourney so even if he told them it is Lyanna, it wouldn't make any difference. You took out one piece of the quote. He dies goes into the air then goes into the tree then he seeks out his wolf, here is the entire quote (Also I don't know why you are only attributing this to Jon): The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. (Dies and goes into the air) He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that's in it, he thought, exulting. (He is in the tree) A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself. (seeks out his wolf)
  15. Well actually Bran is going to be the king at the ending and he is already in a weirwood referred to as a god...soo, I think his quote can be left in the air. Bran is not a god and he doesn't prayers unless it fits with his plans. Like I said I fit just connected the dots, thats it. When Meera tells the story, the issue is how the crannogman was able to get the strength to beat the knights. We are going in circles here. When Ned is praying to the heart tree, he is asking for Robb and Jon to grow up as brothers, this does not apply the same as with Howland Reed. And I don't know about Lyanna, I don't even know if she even believed in Old Gods. The key part is that Bran always wanted to be a knight (its in a lot of his chapters), and this was his chance, its not like the knights were Arthur and Barristan. Hodor retreats into himself in a space that Bran can't access but Bran has everything else.
  16. I doubt Howland has a feminine voice, so yes it could be like the crannogman. Sometimes you just need confidence for a projecting voice. Also, there is a chapter when Bran is hosting notherners and he has to raise his voice, so there is also text that Bran can project his voice. So the weirwoods don't have a past or future, as we see in ADWD. He has to reach and he will see. Varamyr goes into the tree and SEEKS out his wolf: I am the wood, and everything that's in it, he thought, exulting. ...Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself.
  17. This is where the kicker is, because Bran is not really a god, its just people who believe he is a god. I mean you could say people think Varamyr or Bloodraven is god but in reality they are not. Bran only slightly affected the outcome, he made the problem not the outcome. I actually believe this quote fits my theory better. You can take things at face value like prophecies (3 heads of a dragon) and it may not be true. The strong willed girl with the great horse riding skills may not be the mystery knight, it may be someone else. The reason why I got this theory is not because of some headcannon I had. It is because if you read GRRM story, he gives the answer in the text. For example when the deserter of the NW is beheaded, Robb says "the other take his eyes" which is true. When Varys tell Ned that there is a boy that owes everything to Jon Arryn, he thinks the squire but its LF. Same thing with KOLT, the old gods gave him strength, which is actually Bran because he's in the wierwood.
  18. I don't think you understand what I am saying. There is obviously something that stops him. I don't know what it is. I don't make up this story. You can see how see it fits. No, I just don't make up what I don't know. That's it. And should I care that you talked about this often before? I have actually read other books too and not in the fantasy, I think that counts for something. I have also read this series a many times too.
  19. How was Varamyr able to go from the weirwoods to his wolf? Can you explain that? How did Varamyr almost skinchange Thistle? Are you saying Bran would not be as powerful as Varamyr? Again, you are saying that he can use his powers anytime, I am not sure WHY he is not able to continuously do this.
  20. In nearly all of Bran's chapters he talks about wanting to be a knight. Yes, Lyanna was a good rider but I think this is a red herring because its not nearly as mentioned as much as Bran wanting to be a knight. And like Thistle, she wouldn't want to be skinchanged by Bran. This is why I believe Howland was the host, because he prayed to the Old Gods, visited the Isle of Faces, knows about Jojen greenseer abilities etc. I would think someone would have noticed Rhaegar talking to Lyanna? I would think it would showed up in one of the POVs. Regardless, you can think they talked but until I see something more, I think don't think I will believe it. What motivation could Bran have for Lyanna to be the Knight of the Laughing Tree? This is a vision, it puts you right in the middle of things to make assumptions, you should always look for a double meaning. I know the most obvious answer here is that he wants a third kid and I am sure GRRM knows it too. You could interpret at face value, but I think I will try to see where it fits best. I am not saying RLJ did not occur (I actually favor this theory), but the conception of Jon is not as romantic as you may think. We don't know exactly why he went to find Lyanna or if he happened to stumble upon her. Remember she is a good horse rider, maybe she ran away and sought out Rhaegar to help stop the marriage Robert? And this caused a misunderstanding and they had to go into hiding? They were almost a year out there, I am sure there is plenty of time to fall in love. Yes, but Aerys had thought it was Jaime. Now I know Jaime was young and looked Cersei but I don't think his voice sounded like a teenage girl. And the "roar" was part of the descriptions, all the Starks are described as wolves, you wouldn't say the wolf yelled, you would say the wolf roared or howled.
  21. Keyword: so far. The books are not done yet and there is plenty of time for Bran to improve his skills, its building towards it. And from your post earlier, there are no past or futures for the weirwoods. Bran is anticipated to be a better seer than Bloodraven (he has been waiting for a very long time), we have Varamyr who went into the weirwood and into his wolf, so you can skinchange from a weirwood. Bran also describes how it was hard to skinchange Summer at first then it became easier. The same happened to Hodor, who is may not have his wits, but Varamyr almost had Thistle, who is a Wildling that doesn't lack wits. She was able to fight Varamyr off but if Thistle was willing for skinchange, but perhaps a more powerful skinchanger can. Also, in the later ADWD chapters, Bran skinchanges Hodor in the cave and follows Meera, he kept up with appearances with saying "Hodor" and from the quote in my original post, Bran notes that the weirwoods cannot speak, not that he can't. In the Bran chapters in Clash or Swords, he does look down at tilts and talks again about wanting to be a knight and participate in tourneys. I have also quoted in my original post of Bran controlling Hodor fighting with a sword which I don't think Bran could do in his real life, this why I connected the Old Gods giving strength. It was always in Howland, he just needed to more confident. Bran started training in ADWD...and there are still two books left. I don't see how its so far fetched that Bran in the future might be able to skinchange someone other Hodor. You are saying this, I only said he did it once at Harrenhal, that is it. How you interpret my theory is up to you. There are plenty of things that are still not clear. Why doesn't Howland leave the Neck, what actually happened to Hodor? These are probably the reasons why Bran can't do it often. And its a delicate balance, Bran can't always interfere because that might cause other issues. There are plenty of things that can stop Bran from continually skinchanging people Again, you are saying this. I don't know if he can extensively skinchange or not. This is not my story, I don't know where things go. I just connected the dots in the text and it is Bran. Also, Howland goes to the Isle of Faces before the tourney and spends some time there which he may have learned knowledge and gained favor from the Old Gods (Bran).
  22. So I am not saying that Bran skinchanges anyone at anytime. I am saying he skinchanged Howland Reed once at the Harrenhal Tourney. Or that he skinchanged someone for that matter. I am not bringing up anything in the thread that Bran has not done or not capable of doing. We don't know the full implications of what occurred, or to what end, that takes more analysis of the text (however Bran's ending is out there). There is a possibility that something did occur, such as what happened to Hodor or the reason why Howland Reed has not traveled from the Neck. But it is certain, that the birth of Bran was anticipated and watched carefully by Bloodraven/ children of the forest. You have to wonder why they had watched him and they watched Ned for that matter. I am not against Lyanna being the KOLT but to me personally Howland Reed has more textual evidence. Like you said, that Rhaegar met Lyanna at Harrenhal, but he doesn't, he just sings a song that Lyanna cries to. Sort of like Cersei, it doesn't mean he thought she was special. Also, in the story, it doesn't state that Rhaegar found the KOLT, they found a shield. Sure you can speculate but I feel like this is too much speculation with no solid foundation. Edit: Also, one of the things that always bothered me about Lyanna being KOLT is the booming voice. Sure you can say the helm increased the voice volume, but surely the voice would have been a higher pitch or with a feminine tone. Again, we don't really know how Rhaegar found out about the 3 heads or what it really means...there could be multiple interpretations of the dragon with 3 heads. So from here you are speculating that Rhaegar went to Lyanna because of this. But there is no real text that corresponds this. While I do believe Rhaegar may have met with the Ghost of High Heart, I think he found out what happened at Summerhall from her...but we don't know if this actually happened.
  23. Perhaps that is the point of the Order of the Green Men? That they are avatars of the "Old Gods." I actually like this theory
  24. Yes, I do think Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was due to the KoLT actions, perhaps they did meet and Bran had told him that Lyanna would birth his prince that was promised - which he thought was Aegon. There is still a lot of analysis left to do. Regardless, if this theory is true, Bran did break Rhaegar's intentions of bringing the realm together and instead caused more issues between the families. I am really interested in knowing what honor means here, could you put it under spoilers or send a message to me? lol
  25. Yes I do agree that Howland makes more sense to me as being the host for Bran. Howland was the one that prayed and he was also the one who mysteriously prevented Arthur from killing Ned. I wonder if the same applies there too.
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