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  1. AryaUnderfoot33

    Why do people hate Sansa?

    ...or she could be asoiaf's Anne Neville who she has even more parallels with. GRRM rarely does easy x = x parallels, both Theon and Tyrion are versions of Richard III for instance. I've never been super persuaded that by the "Sansa is literally Elizabeth of York" argument when she has parallels with multiple historical figures, while there's undoubtedly similarities with EoY most of the discourse seems to be focused on that totally revealing Sansa's end game and (becoming Queen) rather than what's come before as much.
  2. AryaUnderfoot33

    Why do people hate Sansa?

    Yeah I'm not keen on her becoming Queen - it would feel super redundant to get what she was dreaming of as a naive 11yo in book 1. And she hasn't had the training in ruling; yes she's learned politics and scheming - but actual learning or practicing being a leader the way Jon, Dany and even Bran have? No. (In the books her main training phase seems to be politics/manipulation with LF and in the show her arc is just all over the place). I'd love to see her wielding soft political power at the end, in a Kings Hand/Small Council type role like Littlefinger or Renly did (but a benevolent version working for the good of the realm obviously) or a ambassador between the North and South as she's the Stark with the most Southern connections/skills. But Sansa getting exactly was she wanted at the start after all her changes and character development seems meh.
  3. AryaUnderfoot33

    Why do people hate Sansa?

    Imo Sansa gets so much hate partly because she's introduced in the context of the Starks, the closest we have to the traditional heroes of the series, so her flaws stand out more. Meanwhile other characters are much more terrible but they don't have such sympathetic foils that make them look worse. Jaime and Tyrion for example have done much more awful things than Sansa ever has, but we're introduced to them as Lannisters - the biggest "villain" house of series at least in the first book (obviously shades of grey come in) - and we view them in comparison to Cersei, Joffrey and Tywin. So of course they seem more sympathetic. Meanwhile, Sansa in GoT comes off terribly when lined up against her siblings who are all more likable and competent than she is. Her snobbishness, being blinded by Joffrey, and Cersei, desperation to go South/become Queen, viewing life as a song, not standing up for Arya/Mycah in the Trident incident*** and foolishness in betraying Ned wouldn't look nearly as bad if her other siblings weren't more Northern, sympathetic to the smallfolk, immediately able to realise Joffrey is scum and while naive, aren't as blinded by songs and fantasy. Even in ACoK/ASoS when Sansa's dealing with her hostage situation with a heck more maturity than your average 12 year old girl, it still pales in comparison to Jon infiltrating the Wildlings; Arya surviving in a war-zone, winning over assassins and escaping her own imprisonment situation; Bran ruling Winterfell and Robb leading a war effort. (Setting up Sansa as a foil for Arya was always going to make Sansa's likability an uphill battle. I mean, at least in AGoT, who are readers going to side with? The scrappy, underdog tomboy who befriends/defends commoners, beats up sadistic shithead and learns to sword-fight, or her older sister who bullies her and spends most of her narration sighing over an obviously-evil prince?) ***Not going to get in another debate about the Trident incident, but for comparison - if it had been Jon, Robb or Bran who had to tell Robert what happened between Joffrey and Arya - do you think for a second they wouldn't have backed up Arya up? Lied about what happened after watching Joffrey try to kill their little sister? Imo, it's that kind of comparison that hurts Sansa the most. There are other reasons - bias against traditionally feminine/girly characters, some sexism etc. but I think her comparison to the other Starks is a big one. If she was deliberately introduced from an antagonistic and/or not sympathetic background/context it might be different.
  4. AryaUnderfoot33

    Arya character arc

    I really hope we get an Arya being more loyal to Jon and supporting him even from a distance. It will be very in character for book!Arya and fill in the gaps of the absent Jon/Arya relationship they've ignored for a lot of the series. (And the Jon-Gendry meet up happens, that would be a very natural way to bring up Arya and have them reminisce). And yesss a Lyanna-Arya friendship would be amazing, let Arya reconnect with all the badass Northern women. I think D&D will have to add time jumps. It will be super anti-climactic if the Long Night is over in like six months. The question is how. Theoretically, the war against the others could last a year or two over the length of a normal season, and then the show jumps forward years in the future to when winter itself fades away and summer comes? But then the walkers/winter are connected so it would make sense that when one is defeated the other goes away? And I suspect the war will end with seasons going back to the way they're supposed to/explaining what happened to make seasons last years. Or s8 will start already several years in the future? Idk, this season is already suffering from the shortened length and rushed pacing. The Dany vs. Cersei war that should be lasting ages is zipping through in a matter of weeks. (In comparison to the War of the 5 Kings which was spread over 20 episodes). They need to space out next season. I worry that the "same ending" is having a broader and broader meaning. I'm concerned the ending for Westeros/the war might be the same but different characters are involved. The ending could be say, the Iron Throne is melted down and the kingdoms split up. But in the books Bran rules the North, while in the show it's Jon. Or the ending is reform and a more egalitarian society developing, but in the books Arya's advocates for the smallfolk, while in the show it's Sansa and Arya dies in battle. And the writers still classify that as the "same ending" because Westeros changes and the Stark lines continue. And while for Asoiaf Arya is central, D&D may not view her as such. It's things like replacing Jeyne Poole with Sansa and using her to suit less significant characters (Ramsay and Theon's stories), and killing off Stannis so ignominiously that makes me think that being a "big/central character" doesn't mean your plots are the same. You can be altered for the plot rather than vice versa. Granted, Stannis isn't as major as Arya. And I worry Sansa might "take" Arya's - or Bran's for that matter - ending in some way, because GRRM may not have her ending as set in stone, given she wasn't one of the original characters and was created later). But idk, do you have ideas for Sansa's book end game? [Seriously, I'm very open to nice metas that completely disprove all this and are reassuring that Arya's ending will be the same. I definitely don't want any of it to be true] Re: marriage for Arya...Not impossible imo. The original outline had romance - with Jon - as a central part of her story. She wasn't designed as a character who could never have a relationship. But she's so young in the books that an outright marriage doesn't seem likely until there's a time jump into the future. I think the final book will depict quite a long time after the Long Night and explore how Westeros recovers. GRRM will want to portray the realism of it, not "and they battle ended, they lived happily ever after." So if we go into the future, there's a chance Arya will be married/with someone imo. (Though certainly not a traditional marriage and not a proper love story that will take up lots of page time. If you want a happy relationship in the series your best bet is to be off-handily mentioned not depicted in detail. If there's detail, GRRM will end it badly/tragically). Gendry is the only real romantic teasing she's had. Given we're 5 books and 7 seasons in, I think there's not much page time to develop another love interest unless Jon is still on the cards. So the optimist in me hopes that Arya and Gendry will reunite, probably both be involved in the fight against the others, Gendry won't die (ha), there's hints of something more and in a flashforward there's a passing mention they got married or something or just "and then Princess Arya and Gendry put in smallfolk reforms together". It does have some symbolic meaning in a Baratheon/Stark match finally working. But that seems overly idealistic, I'm interested what other people think beyond "Arya is too damaged to love anyone ever and will die/wander off/be a lone wolf forever/become No One" which seems to be everywhere.
  5. AryaUnderfoot33

    Arya character arc

    Aww, I didn't know that. Really wish they'd kept that in, instead of focusing both Arya's reunions on her list. Basically yep. As much as I complain about them butchering Arya, she's fared much better than a lot of other characters. I mean Jaime who is now almost the exact opposite of his book counterpart and his most defining/best decision of his life (killing Aerys to stop the wildfire) has been thrown aside for him to follow Cersei. Then there was Stannis who in the books was a subversion of the evil uncle King in his rocky fortress, but actually had a lot of honour, duty to the kingdom and a justified claim. Meanwhile, the writers took it at face value. (They really missed the entire point of the Renly and Stannis contrast). So really I should probably be relieved Arya isn't much worse. (D&D seem to struggle with realising that GRRM's characters often deconstructions and reconstructions of character archetypes, putting them in the real world and giving them complexity: the rebellious princess (Arya), princess classic (Sansa), the young king/avenging his father (Robb), the "good" King (Renly). But too often D&D just play the stereotypes straight and miss all the layers).
  6. AryaUnderfoot33

    Arya character arc

    You're right, I was thinking about her first conversations with Bran and Sansa being all about her list rather than pack/family which was super off putting. But her choosing home over killing Cersei was a great moment and did establish her true priorities. And Hot Pie calling her pretty gives me hope they're going to treat her more as a woman with feelings and interpersonal relationships not just a killing machine. Edit: @DutchArya we posted at the same time, but yes the lady/pretty comments hopefully suggest a more nuanced writing of Arya! Her reaction to hearing Jon took WF and Sansa acknowledging that Jon loved her the most does suggest that they might put some effort into the Arya/Jon reunion after all. Their relationship has been downplayed from the books - partly because you don't get the characters internal narrative - but it was interesting that the writers chose to go with Arya finding out Jon (not Sansa as well or "the Starks") took back the North and her reaction was focused on him.
  7. AryaUnderfoot33

    Arya character arc

    Yes to literally everything in this post. Book!Arya is complex, empathetic, multi-skilled, her main arc is about finding her "pack" and her story is saturated with leadership imagery particularly with Nymeria and the wolf pack. Show!Arya is just a vengeful badass whose whole focus is finishing her list (which was a coping method in the book). The books really seem to be pointing towards Arya being a big player in some way: Leading the wolf pack as a warg with Nymeria, a battle tactician/leader of some kind in the War of the Dawn, representing/championing the smallfolk as a leader after the war, (a kind of spiritual successor to the Brotherhood without Banners?), her language skills, stealth and lie detection/manipulation skills would make her a great spymaster or even politician of some kind in rebuilding the kingdom. She also has a lot more connections to the North and the Northernmen which could set her up for leadership of the North. So many options. But the show has removed all of that, just made her a warrior and ended up giving Sansa a greater role in the North, a closer relationship with Jon, a place as leader and be the one uniting "the pack" which was Arya's thing. So I really worry that they'll give a version of Arya's endgame to Sansa and kill Arya to make things more tragic because they don't think she'll have a role after the fighting is done. Which is urghhh. (They've also reduced Bran's role and his connections to WF, possibly they're giving that to Sansa as well). I know GRRM said the main ending points of the story would be the same but 1) While he views Arya as a main point and central character the show doesn't and 2) That was a long time ago, and the show has kept deviating further away from the books. Unfortunately the show has barely portrayed Arya and the importance of a "pack" to her, even though it was her driving force in the books. They even gave Sansa Arya's "the lone wolf dies but the pack survives line." I do think the show has suffered from not having the books as a guideline. In previous seasons they had a rough framework and a lot of scenes pre-written and they just moved bits around. The overall arc was there for them. When they've had to write their own storylines things have fallen apart logically and it's just a mess. To be fair, GRRM takes years putting the plot together, they don't have much time. But the difference following his story arc in previous seasons vs. their own plot later on shows. I think if the books were already written than Arya's endgame wouldn't be likely to change, as it would be pretty glaring. But as no one knows about her fate D&D can just do what they want. (For the record I really, really hope I'm wrong and Arya does live and does amazing things).