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  1. Very interesting, coming from the show I was not aware of the Kings of winter. I still have a lot of reading ahead of me to catch up with the books, but I wonder why they were referred to that indeed, especially since the "Kings of Winter" were established just past the original white walker invasion was it not? I did some research on the Kings of Winter and the Stark lineage and it hints at possibly more connections to House Stark and the WW. House Stark was founded by Bran the builder, but what is interesting is its rumored Bran the builder was the son of Brandon of the Bloody Blade who was known for his love of slaughtering the COTF, which could tie in to Leaf's remark about needing protection from "you" in reference to Bran, "you" could be referring to "your lineage". Is it a stretch to think this Brandon of the bloody blade was patient 0 who we saw on the show get the dragonglass to his heart due to his war on the COTF, and his son, Bran the builder was the one to rise up with others and help stop his father when it all went bad? Bran the builder then founds house Stark to get away from the shame his father brought to his name? Most likely coincidence, but again would tie into Jons determination to not punish a son for his fathers sins. House Stark seems to have some skeletons in its closet that is for sure and a long rumored history of very bad or very good Starks who have come to oppose one another. You can even go further back to the father of Brandon the bloody blade, legend has it he was the son of Garth Greenhand who was rumored to be the very first man in Westeros even before the First Men with almost god like powers, when I read about it he reminds me of mother nature, or a representation of life itself, this would oppose the WW who is a representation of winter, and the death of life that Greenhand had given. What I also find interesting is the crypts where these Kings of winter rest in Winterfell. I do not have much knowledge on the books yet, but there was talk about something important being in the crypts of Winterfell, a lot of hints in the books to this apparently and Jon having visions. The stone wolves lie at the bottom of the feet of these kings of winter in their place of rest, its interesting Jon is the only one with a dire wolf left. There is a lot of tinfoil in there, but I am certainly looking forward to reading these books, so much I am missing which makes one wonder. All these connections to ponder, some will be important, others will not.
  2. Yeah, that "There must always be a stark in Winterfell" tends to stick with me as well, its one of those things where I feel strongly in the end that it will have a reason, same with "winter is coming" to a lesser degree, but I do not believe they are simply red herrings. I think its suggested in the show that the white walker is somewhat a metaphor for winter, bringing a winter storm when they appear, having humanoid bodies but icy appearance and appearing in the long night. Winter is coming may not be referring to winter itself, but as a warning originating back with Bran that builder that winter (white walkers) is coming again in the future and it became a stark saying, just lost the original meaning over generations as WW faded from memory. Winterfell also sticks out for me, if the WW is indeed a metaphor for winter, then its not a stretch to say Winterfell is named because of the fact winter fell (white walkers) at that place which is why winterfell was built in the first place because they knew they would return some day and its some sort of weapon or something to defeat the WW threat for good upon its return, and ties into how there must always be a stark in Winterfell. I think those 3 are all connected in one way or another, just I have no real evidence as to how yet, but I think this is a Stark story for the most part. As for Bran being marked and the timeline, "The Door" episode 55, was the episode where Bran was marked, at that time Sansa had fled Winterfell and was gathering forces for the battle of the Bastard, so to my recollection there was no Stark in Winterfell at that time, although on second thought was Rickon not being held prisoner at that time in Winterfell? Are you thinking there is a connection between Winterfell, a stark needing to be in Winterfell, and that the Night King was able to see Bran and mark him due to a Stark not being present in Winterfell? Like a Stark being in winterfell was important to keep another stark who was travelling through time cloaked from others who had the ability to travel through time? or something along those lines? A Stark vs Stark would be interesting, I agree it would be tough to have on the show with the time left, but if you look at the story being told, it does show a lot of conflict between good and evil, and how people of the same family can be at opposite ends of the spectrum (Tarly's, Lannisters, Clegaine's) as well as a lot of old stories from Old Nan about some good Starks, but also if some theories come true bad Stark's. If the Night's King was indeed a Stark, then there was already a battle of Stark Vs Stark in the past as was it not a Stark who united with some other houses to bring down the Night's King in the old story? We also have Benjen who has stark blood and turned into a semi white walker, whatever we want to call him, there are just too many connections for there not to be some meaning there to the starks and the white walker threat.
  3. Without getting too far off topic about woolly mammoths, it was simply an example which can hint at why a certain amount of first men blood might be important, yes its not a pure blood woolly mammoth, nor is it a pure blood elephant, it will always be a hybrid like you say, but at some point that hybrid has more woolly mammoth DNA than elephant DNA despite still being a hybrid. Hypothetically, if there was something particularly special about the woolly mammoth, I would think you would have a better chance of extracting whatever that is, the more mammoth DNA they share, would you not agree? If you take the same example for the first men, at some point it becomes more first men bloodline than the other comparisons, and that could be significant as to specific northerners vs southern houses who share more first men blood and are closer to their ancestors than those in the south which the show did make a point of sharing. I am not saying it is, just saying it may be an example where "mostly" is important which you had asked about potential answers as to why mostly may be important. Its not a great answer, but I think its an answer that is possible. I am certainly not standing by them, nor think its likely, just things to throw out and ponder which was my original intent with my questions. I am not looking to shoot down theories, more listen to them, think about them, discuss the possibilities. Like you had mentioned there are a lot of hints from old nan, and other easter eggs, some I am sure are meaningless, others are not, its just putting them all together. I do however think and hope there will be more explanation on to how white walkers are created in the present and it will have some significance and connection, but that's simply a gut feeling for now, I am hoping this thread might dig up some evidence to support that from others who have more information that I. By all means share you own questions, I would love to have a look, end of the day its going to be a long wait for season 8 and I enjoy entertaining theories and coming up with new ones, expand on what I already know and try to tie together those legends and stories told with the reality of what we have seen. As for the stark blood, I tend to agree, if there was stark blood in Craster it should be fairly known about after only one generation. The only counter point I would have is in Westeros, it seems if you bring shame to your family (like Jorah) you are basically forgotten about and banished. If that ranger was a stark, and he was blacklisted by his family due to bringing shame to the stark name, its possible it could be lost after a generation. Unlikely however, I think personally I will give up on that thought unless other concrete evidence comes to light. I think it would be a cool connection however and could tie into a lot of the mystery about the stark family. My only evidence to the Night King being a stark was based on previous theories I have read about in which Bran is the Night King, while I do not like this theory personally, there does seem to be a few clues the night king could be stark blood in those theories, but admittedly nothing concrete, but it does go beyond the night's king vs the night king with that evidence.
  4. In science, there is a discussion about bringing back the woolly mammoth, if memory serves me correct, using dna found in the tundra and breeding it with a present day elephant, gradually over time continuing to breed more woolly mammoth into it and less elephant, over generations theoretically you end up with almost a pure bread woolly mammoth, the question is, when is it considered pure enough blood to be considered a woolly mammoth? I am just using this as an example of where the mostly may fit in, at some point that mostly is considered first men blood, there very well could be a cutoff of first men purity in order to turn it into a while walker, there is specific mention of which houses share the most first men blood. If all of Westeros shares first men blood and its generally not that special, then why make mention that the North shares more? Could simply be a detail not to be read into, but its perhaps an argument why it could be. What if its not first men blood specifically but stark blood that they need, were you just throwing out there, about what if craster was of stark blood, or is there some hints towards that? Crater being of some stark blood as well as theories of the night king being of stark blood could have some significance in how the white walkers are created.
  5. Bill and Ted defeated death at a mean game of twister!. Now I feel old.
  6. I appreciate the well thought out reply, it answered a lot of questions, I am half way through game of thrones book, looking forward to getting more into the details like this for sure, looks like there is a lot to learn still that did not make it to the show. So focusing on the show, has there been any hints you know of that would point to other ways the white walkers can reproduce other than Craster? What is interesting to me, and again going off memory, other than the Night King and the original WW in E1S1, the white walkers all look the same in the show, same age, same look, same hair/beards. Could simply be a budget thing for GOT and I am reading too far in, or like you suggested simply the physical appearance of a WW can all look the same, we do not know, but I also wonder if there is a central connection they all share, like a clone of some sort, and how that relates to the boys Craster sacrificed since even human children are related but have different physical appearances, except identical twins that is. I would love to find out how or if a WW ages, we saw a baby turned into what appeared to be a WW, but how how long do they take to grow up? Do they age and then stop? Do they grow immediately into the WW we have seen on the show through some sort of magic? Guess we may never have an answer to that question, but I cannot help but wonder. Osha had mentioned the WW had been sleeping for thousands of years but had recently awoken, so I would assume some WW survived since the original invasion long before Craster offered up his sons, yet they all share the same physical appearance (from the ones we have seen thus far). Being as WW existed long before Craster, there must be other ways of reproduction, which is why I am interested in Craster's bloodlines. Is there a connection there in which a blood relative of Craster was also responsible for the reproduction of WW after the original invasion I wonder once the COTF stopped creating them, and could this relate to little Sam being important in S8. Perhaps the Night King has lost his means of reproducing upon the death of Craster and no more male heirs of his bloodline. If Craster is indeed an outcast of the Wildlings and the Nights Watch, why? Do you think he could be a relative of something like the Night's King for example, or one of the other old tales of a disgraced westerosi/Nights watch who would then be outcast by both societies and harbor a bitterness towards humanity. Old Nan had mentioned Craster could come from Stark blood, the Night's King was also said to be possibly stark blood and also made human sacrifices. In the tales of the Night's King, it was said when he bed the women with skin as white as the moon and eyes blue like ice, he had given her his soul too. I had heard too that its important to pay attention to the old Nan tales, some of them must connect in the end I would think. We do not know for sure we have only seen males to date I will concede, but I think its suggesting that on the show, they are supposed to be humanoid in appearance still, I think it would be more likely than not that they would make clear a female vs male WW, but you are correct, we do not know for sure. In the GOT world, women were known to also answer the call of battle, one only needs to look to house Mormont to see females can be warriors and leaders just the same as men, as well as Aegon the conqueror, were his sisters not considered generals in his army? I seem to remember something about that. Then you also have the maesters who is a male only establishment however, so while that could be a reason we have not seen a distinct female WW, I think the shows portrayal of women would contradict the statement that if you looked at generals or the upper echelons of society you would only see men. In our history? Absolutely, in the show history? While women are still held back, it seems quite a bit more empowering than our own history.
  7. His sons were the only ones shown to create white walkers, there was still plenty of wildlings beyond the wall in the first few seasons, but we were only shown Craster's sons being made into white walkers, is there any evidence in the book that white walkers are creating from any children, or specifically Craster's sons? From the legend of the Night's King falling in love with a female white walker, we know female ww supposedly exist, but we have only seen male white walkers to date, why? Is it because Craster only gave his sons away and only Craster children can create white walkers? I would think there may be some significance with this. Upon his death, he took offense at being called a bastard, its what sets off the slaughter at Crasters Keep if I remember correctly. If he was indeed a wildling, then why was he offended? Ygritte and Tormund both made cases that wildling life is different than that of south of the wall, there are no bastards in wildling society and there is more "free loving" so to speak, so why would being called a bastard be so offensive to Craster? Its only supposed to be offensive to those south of the wall. The night's watch and wildlings were bitter enemies, there did not seem to be any dialogue, just simple see the enemy, kill the enemy, so how did Craster make a sort of Truce with the Nights Watch? This all had me wondering if there was more to Craster than met the eye, which may tie in to his last known living son little Sam. So do you think there is still some significance to Craster or Craster bloodline and how he fits into the white walkers?
  8. The past cannot be changed, but I wonder if it can be edited, so that the past is not being changed itself, but the past is edited to reflect change the present/future where those rules do not apply. I think of it like a book, a book is printed and cannot be changed, but you can add in words between pages to alter the story so you have a different ending, you are not changing the words that are written, just adding to it. I hope that comes out right, this whole time travel stuff is giving me headaches!
  9. Could be, but with this show should we really expect what is laid out in front of us like that? So many twists and turns, it could be that simple, but at the same time I have to keep my mind open to other possibilities. The ancient magic in the wall, Winterfell and the mysteries within it, all the Bran's in previous history who had dealings with white walkers (Bran the builder, possibly Bran the Night's King, and now 3 eyed raven Bran), there has to be some sort of connection to all that, when you throw time travel into the mix, the possibilities are endless. They did make a point of showing Bran breaking the cave, but at that time he was being mentored by bloodraven, who can see "past present and future" why did he not see this? Why was he taken by surprise when everything else he saw coming? They did make a point of Benjen discussing how the wall does not allow the dead to pass, I agree, but the whole theory where the night king was just lying in wait north of the wall for Dany to bring her dragons opens up so many questions to me, the Night King must also be a greeneer then? Can he travel through time as well like the 3 eyed raven? If this was the case, it would make sense that not only is there a physical battle, but also a battle through time.
  10. That's actually a pretty interesting theory, do you have any more which backs this up? I like it.
  11. I actually agree for the most part, which is what got me thinking, was this magic in the wall really that bad? It certainly could have been, and if so I would be disappointing in how it was handled when making the show, but I also think perhaps its a red herring, and the magic in the wall never had anything to do with keeping the Night King out of the south as was widely known, but to entrap him instead and lead to his eventual defeat. I am thinking the wall still has a purpose and is linked with Winterfell somehow.
  12. I am wondering if its something along the lines of a 2 tiered approach. Some have theorized that the Night King knew Jon Dany would bring her dragons to bring the wall down, this would make him a greenseer, perhaps he is like an evil Bran, able to go back in time to amend, not necessarily change the past to give a desired outcome in the present. I think the battle Bran must win is through time, both are working through time making small amendments to give them the upper hand in the present final battle, Bran has to win this battle for the good heroes in the present to be victorious. If Bran wins this battle of time, the night king becomes vulnerable and Jon is able to defeat him in physical battle.
  13. It was strongly hinted that Bran broke the magic by going past the wall, I just wonder if this was a move to set us off the scent, that these events were planned in actual fact by multiple versions of Bran as he travels through time, that the ink is written and dry, but it can be amended through small changes in editing the entire piece to give us an entirely different result in the present where the ink is not yet dry (like adding words in between a story, not changing the story as its written, just adding to it to give a different ending). I cannot remember for certain, but did blood raven not say along the lines that "this was not supposed to happen yet" when Bran got the mark of the Night King? I may be remembering incorrectly. I am having trouble getting my thoughts straight, as is the case with time travel, but the point that bothers me is Hodor already was effected by the speech impediment or whatever you want to call it before Bran traveled back in time for the first time on screen to the "Hold the door" event, so that had to happen previously in a time loop we had not seen for Hodor to be effected during the show, is there not some starting point in time where he would have been normal, before Bran meddled with time? If so, would that not show that being as the events had already unfolded in a previous time loop, would blood raven not have known about all this and done something to prevent it? If not the only reason I can think of is it was meant to happen. Bran climbing the tower in S1E1, he was not supposed to be climbing as per Catlyn, but he did it anyways. This could be a time amendment, it sets off specific events which steers him to his current state, in previous time maybe he didnt make that climb listening to his mother like a good Stark lad, giving drastically different results. Bran is saved by Benjen, another event Bran could have orchestrated from previous time travel, again going by memory, but did Benjen not tell him he was sent by the 3 eyed raven? aka Bran. Same thing with Jon, he could have been sent to save Jon at the last moment which is why Benjen knew there was no time to save them both. Hell Bran could have instructed the COTF to save Benjen with the dragonglass in the first place which created his half dead, half alive state, as in time he is supposed to be dead. Bran travels past the wall, sending Rickon to the Umbers. How important was it to Jon that Rickon died in his arms? Would it have effected the battle at all? Does not seem like it would, but it makes one think that this event had to happen for other events to unfold, the decision to send him to the Umbers was Bran Bran disobeys blood raven and time jumps on his own, gets marked by the night king, another time amendment creating perhaps not an entirely different future in itself, but an amendment to give us a different circumstance. Bran says Jon "has to know" about his true parentage, perhaps its because that information will unfold important events. Ravens were seen with Sam when he first killed a WW with dragonglass, ravens are a sign of the 3 eyed raven, not white walkers, what was their point there? Perhaps to watch that small change in the future where dragon glass is discovered to kill white walkers by Sam. Sam discovered that dragonglass and as Ed noted "someone was meant to find it" Perhaps this could be another nudge by time travelling Bran to create a vastly different outcome. Just seems to me that everything Bran has done is very much leading to specific events, his actions have led to some very specific places, the final 2 points is definitely stretching I admit. Of course its likely chance and storytelling, but when you throw in the fact he can time travel, and shares the same name as some very important past characters who were heavily invested, for better for worse with the white walkers, it has me wondering if he is in fact tinkering with time to change the present where the ink is not dry.
  14. Benjen Stark mentioned that while the wall stands the dead cannot pass, but the first wight was brought in and reanimated at Castle Black. I guess technically he did not pass through the wall as a wight, he became a wight after he was through the wall, and as we have seen so far we need a WW to reanimate the wight, so that wight was brought back despite the fact the WW was still north of the wall when he did so, we also seen the same when they brought the wight to Kings Landing, but the dead are not supposed to be able to pass through. It has me wondering a bit. Bran the builder was the builder of the wall and the builder of winterfell. I wonder if the magic in the wall was not to keep the dead from passing, but to make them vulnerable once they had passed, the magic is in the foundations, not necessarily the wall itself, could that magic be serving a different purpose than what everyone thinks? Could the walls purpose not be to keep the WW from invading, but built as a means to defeat the night king once and for all when they returned and crossed over it? May there also be ancient magic in Winterfell that coincides with the magic in the wall to gain victory once and for all and links up to why a Stark should always be in Winterfell? Seems coincidence that Bran the builder built both, and now we have a Bran who is a 3 eyed raven who can travel into the past, and even suggested he may be able to interfere with it. I imagine a scenario where when the first white walkers attacked, the first men and cotf were able to defeat them, but not destroy them, they knew in the future they would return, and built structures which would give future generations the means to destroy the night King for good. Bran as the three eyed raven travels back in time to the original events to see how the first men and cotf defeated the white walkers in more detail than what the legends tell, he found the WW weakness, but the tools they had at the time were not able to destroy the night king, only drive him back. Bran wargs into Bran the builder, or perhaps one in the same, and gives detailed plans with help from the cotf on what to build for the future to defeat the Night King upon his return. Bran is setting up events purposely to trick the Night King, he was marked deliberately by the Night King goading him into a false sense of security, all these events are set up to entrap the night King since the initial invasion thousands of years prior. Its possible that the Night King assumed the wall was for keeping them up north, but in reality the magic is under the wall and once they pass through it makes them vulnerable to defeat and was all a ruse by Bran to trick the Night King into making him vulnerable to die for good. Tinfoil absolutely, but it has me wondering just what the magic is supposed to do in the wall and how it works. Is it now gone, or is it still there serving an ulterior purpose? Just seemed so anti climatic that all it took was an undead dragon when dragons existed back then and they would/should have planned for this. So what do you think, is the magic now gone and dead in the wall, or is there still something there?
  15. summitxho

    Where will the final battle happen?

    I am going with Winterfell. The city names seem to suggest there is accuracy to them. Kings landing is where King Aegon I Targaryen landed from dragstone. Dragonstone is most likely named because of the dragon glass, perhaps Winterfell is named because that is where winter fell (white walkers) in the original invasion.