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Lord Okra

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  1. Nobody set a trap for Ramsey that he fell into. He ended up trapped but not because of Jon's battle plans or Sansa's well laid plans..... He endedup trapped due to unforseen and unplanned by anyone circumstances........reinforcements arriving JIT. Events take a course all their own sometimes. We see this a lot in the show. LF is suffering through unforeseen events even though he .....fights every battle, everywhere, all the time....in his head....cool LF, too bad you didn't fight the battle vs the guy who can see all your past.....didn't see that one coming huh? Yeah, sometimes you just are outdone by things you can't foresee and predict.
  2. That's why I say it wasn't a trap. It was him being caught by surprised due to reinforcements arriving just in time. Happened in war many times. The confederacy "won" many battles due to just in time reinforcements arriving from far off.
  3. Ramsey got caught with his pants down. I wouldn't call it a trap. Unless you are saying Sansa set the trap which would actually make sense.....she knew Ramsey better than Jon/Davos and knew their simple trap would fail.....and he wouldn't see her's coming. But it wasn't a trap imo......it was just he was caught by surprise due to unexpected reinforcements showing up from his rear.
  4. Ok, I'll concede it is similar to a pincer movement but they never describe attacking the rear or the force and a pincer is supposed to encircle the enemy in the end and connect behind them if I recall correctly. They were not going to a pincer movement whereby he moved his troops first similar to modern versions with mechanized units. He was going to create the flank attacks by giving ground. And they don't mention connecting in the rear and having Ramsey surrounded like in a true pincer movement like the Battle of Cannae. Very similar battle plan though, that's for sure. Anyway, the point was the plan wasn't bad at all......the execution was bad.....due to Sansa's prediction. I'd think having a battleplan similar to a famous one from history would indicate Jon was fine with tactics just not good at controlling his emotions when it comes to Rickon.....
  5. She says she will go fight with Jon if Cercie agrees.....which nobody in room finds realistic......so Tyrion then argues that Jamie is the key. In the end, it is all about getting Jamie on their side according to Tyrion as nobody believes Cersie can be trusted. And she is believing him but she still doesn't recognize the seriousness of the threat. Only after seeing the threat does she truly understand what Jon was talking about. Wow. She didn't abandon her goal of the IT. She is delaying the war for the IT if the others in the war will agree to do so. And she doesn't believe Cersie will agree to end the war so.........I can't take all my armies north. But Tyrion says that if they can convince Jamie then Jamie can hold Cersie in check......not a good solution, granted......but more reasonable than this it is all about Cersie junk people spew. It is really about Tyrion driving a wedge between Jamie/Cersie if he can.......watch.....that'll play out. Of course it is reasonable if she doesn't understand the AoD threat really. Which she doesn't until they take out her dragon. And what are you talking about abandoning? She hasn't abandoned anything. Until she left to save Jon/Jorah....she had refused to abandon her goals for the AoD threat. However, she has seen the AoD threat now and she is now prepared to put the IT aside and fight the REAL THREAT..... She just realizes huh? You talked about a vision earlier. Now you are saying, that without seeing the AoD she suddenly recognizes how off base her refusing to help Jon has been (in fairness she gave him the dragonglass but she did think it was worthless and it was a political tactic). She is risking her life for JORAH/JON.....they are not "nothing." What epiphany by Stannis? This must come from the books. There will be a battle for the wall. And the dragon will be key to taking it down. The books will probably use some way far fetched way the wall is taken down using magic horns or whatever but the show has to get past the "magic wall" (Sam mentions the wall is supposed to have magic built into it in the show). Magic dragon to take down magic wall.....show solution. Magic horn or magic dragon or some form of magic to take down magic wall......book solution. The show established that magic protects the wall from the WW passing according to Sam's book lernin. So, a solution must be presented.......what does the show have as a potential solution.......dragons.
  6. 1, Bran sends the raven about the NK approaching Eastwatch. This happened in the show so I'm with ya. 2, Jon, after the initial shock and joy at discovering Bran is alive, jumps to action because he knows what a miracle it is that Bran with his disability would have survived beyond the Wall and because he trusts his brother implicitly. This happened in the show too so I'm still with ya. 3, He makes an impassionate speech about how he can't stay at Dragon stone and needs to go protect his people. And let's face it, this is exactly the kind of motivation that would appeal to Dany and make her see Jon in a new light as so many of her own decisions are driven by her desire to protect her people. This also happened in the show so I'm staying with you other than why Dany should be eager to believe some boy has visions. I guess we are going to just totally trust Jon at this point from a Dany POV if she's going to start believing in people she never met having visions of Armies of the Dead. Would require a rewrite of everything up to that point in the season. Dany would need to already be in love with Jon basically. 4, At this point he could make the last appeal to Dany to come with him. At which point you could have Dany deliver that speech that was so out of place in their first meeting - her entire life was spent trying to win back the IT and so much of her identity is wrapped around in that goal that she can't just let it go. Plus she needs to protect her realm from Cersei's tyranny. She'll help Jon once she's secured the IT. Sure, it's selfish but it makes sense what we know of her and given the information she has. If it happens it private it even helps boost the Jon & Dany romance because it gives them a genuine personal character moment to share. So we don't get the scene where Dany establishes the underlying reasons why she won't just believe Jon when she first meets him? Instead, we get it a few episodes later? Or are you saying we get that speech twice? Didn't we actually get a summary of that speech though? I thought the response to the Bran news from Dany was......short summary......I won't abandon the 7 Kingdoms to Cersie. And didn't this entire sequence give Jon/Dany the "personal" moment.....the great understanding that will now allow them to complete this plotline where they are falling for each other. 5, Jorah, having just been healed by Sam who believes both in Jon and the NK, seeing that she is conflicted about her decision, offers her a way out - he'll go with Jon as her eyes and ears and report back as to the truth of his claims. Dany has been uber stubborn because of her goal. She won't just leave the IT to anyone. She's here for the IT, not to fight some fantasy army. That's Dany's entire thing (I admit, way simplified) the entire season pretty much. She's here for the IT. And, in that scene we see Dany's reaction to the offer by Jorah and then Jon jumping in.......she doesn't like this plan at all.......the more she ponders it (fire scene)......the more she doesn't like it...... Eventually she just goes and rescues them. And haven't we had numerous convo's where "Dany is too valuable to risk?" 6, When Jon and co arrive at the Wall, the NK's attack is imminent. They do their best, epic action ensues including a zombie bear, but it becomes clear that they are losing. Jorah reports to Dany or Jon specifically asks her for help (in return for bending the knee?). They send a raven. So we ruin Dany's redemption arc for being so stubborn and self centered earlier in the season? Jon is still forced to bend the knee so that Dany will finally help? This is just not what the show was ever going for and we should all be jumping up and down over the fact that these two both dropped their stubbornness and hard hardheadedness......their prideful behavior. Dany coming in and saving Jon without he bend the knee request is the natural resolution.......along with Jon offering to bend the knee (or propose?) after the demand is dropped. 7, In the meanwhile, Dany is shown preparing her army to assault KL. She's about to sail when the raven arrives (or she has an epiphany). At this point it's too late to send her army - they'd never make it in time. She must go herself. This is her save horse before the cart moment. We've had enough "visions." On the one hand we get complaints about it not being realistic enough and they conveniently get this or that just in the right time. Now, we are asking for a vision for Dany. Well, isn't that a great plot device. We can just skip passed ravens, Gendry running, miracle lake.....because Dany has visions of he future.......that we never established in the show. Oh the crying we'd get over Dany gaining visions at just the right moment to save Jon. 8, She arrives at the Wall and it looks like she might turn the tide of the battle around. Then Viserion gets speared and brings down a chunk of the Wall. They retreat in desperation. You can even have Jon get separated and saved by Benjen if you must. This is basically the end we got other than it happens at the wall. Only...... If Viserion is the key to taking down the wall then why is the NK attacking the wall prior to having a dragon? Can you imagine the whining here about that? NK attacks wall with no way to breach it but then lucks into a dragon who he uses to then breach the wall........ Maybe GRRM's plot is so convoluted and the process of the wall coming down needs so much backstory and so much "suspension of disbelief" without a novel to explain it that the showrunners thought......we need some way to bring down this wall that doesn't require a season to explain away.......hey, lets get a dragon to do it.....GRRM says NK gets a dragon......we'll do that early and then we can use the dragon to solve the wall breech problem.
  7. How about, in the books the NK is going to get an ice dragon from Dany in the outline given by GRRM and they had to work backwards from there since GRRM can't figure out or doesn't want to figure out how that actually happens in the books he isn't going to finish.......so, they backed into a way for that to happen. At least as plausible as your theory.......actually, more plausible.
  8. I can't even. I think these last two posts have let me in on the real issue. Some of you simply aren't capable of following the conversations. One guy thinks Jon was proposing a pincer move...... And you just are lost overall after watching the scene...... I, honestly, just think the show is over your head.
  9. He's ripped on every single episode for 3 seasons? And he's still watching? Your partner needs help.
  10. Wow. I'm embarrassed for you. Jon did not propose a pincer move. He was telling Thormund what Stannis used against the wildlings and how he (Jon) had trenches dug so that Ramsey couldn't use that type of cavalry maneuver against them. He was showing that he was prepared against that type of move to Thormund. Davos comments on their overall strategy. Stay back and wait. Sansa later warns that Ramsey will mess with Jon to get him to break his well laid plans and Jon dismisses her. Later, Ramsey manipulates Jon into abandoning his good battle plans out of emotion. Good stuff.
  11. Stannis had he pincer move. Jon wanted to fill in the wall with ice and hope for the best. He was ignored. You should rewatch that season I think. It was outstanding. You didn't like it?
  12. Of course they were straining plausibillity. But, thankfully......I know that special messenger ravens are fast and that dragons are faster...... The stuff was plausible.....in a fantasy setting with magic and dragons..... Nothing to complain about, that's for sure.
  13. You mean 42 pages of nitpicking criticism based on chains, time lapse, unladen airspeed of a raven, laden airspeed of a dragon, it was only 24 hours...... It has been 42 pages of petty complaining and the responses to the petty complaints. I read on a different forum that the books claim the ravens in universe are faster than carrier pigeons. Is that right? Can that be confirmed. I was told that in the books the ravens are faster that carrier pigeons but how much faster isn't established. Hmmmm. I said earlier that special messenger ravens could go at least as fast and further than carrier pigeons (have been recorded to make it 700+ miles in a day). Hmmmmm. You were saying something about the raven? lol
  14. Except it wasn't a wight hut for Cersie on the show. You could at least criticize the actual main plot of the season. The wight hunt was for Dany/Jamie/Everybody but Cersie...... Throwing Cersie's name out there like anybody believes she can be trusted to do what's right is ignoring the actual on screen dialog by the characters just to come here and say......wight hunt for Cersie. I've been over what the show claimed the wight hunt was about. It wasn't about getting Cersie to be nice. It is about getting the entire realm to believe the threat is real......including Dany......who was already willing to believe but now she doesn't give a flip about what Cersie does or doesn't do........that was the real main plot.... Real main plot of the season...... Jon/Dany coming together to face the AoD.
  15. This season is not badly written at all. It is action heavy and the pacing is rushed but it isn't badly written at all. Is the best of the series? No. It is still high quality writing though.
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