Jump to content

The One Who Kneels

Members
  • Content count

    76
  • Joined

  • Last visited

About The One Who Kneels

  • Rank
    Sellsword

Recent Profile Visitors

The recent visitors block is disabled and is not being shown to other users.

  1. Logically it would've substantially bolstered her position and caused mass defections to her side. She had just crushed Cersei's army and demonstrated the power of dragons, showed that those lords serving Cersei could bend the knee to her and maintain their positions and that those who persisted in defiance would lose at a minimum their titles and possibly everything. It didn't only because the entire Cersei vs. Daenerys conflict is a poorly written farce. Another question to pose is what would Daenerys lose by not doing it? Jailing a lord who insults you and rejects your offers of mercy until he reconsiders would've led to a perception that Daenerys is a very weak ruler who can be defied and ignored without serious consequences.
  2. The One Who Kneels

    Dany the Mad Queen was a terrible idea

    And that's fine if that's your objection to it. I don't think the show necessarily established a jet of dragonfire as inherently awful compared to a beheading or hanging but that's certainly a fair point. Arguing that the execution itself was proof that Daenerys was evil or mad or whatever is the issue because the way the writers wrote the scene that was how any monarch would've had to react.
  3. The One Who Kneels

    Dany the Mad Queen was a terrible idea

    So every lord could opt out of swearing fealty to Joffrey when Robert died and couldn't be punished for it? Again what do you not understand about how a feudal monarchy works?
  4. The One Who Kneels

    Dany the Mad Queen was a terrible idea

    You're completely missing the point. It doesn't matter if Tarly is right or wrong in who he chooses (the fact that he is willingly backing Cersei Lannister just makes the whole situation really dumb and his uncompromising stance idiotic) the point is that Daenerys giving him the option of bend the knee or die is not proof that she is cruel or ruthless or unreasonable it is how any ruler would have to react in this situation. What part of how a feudal system works is unclear? You cannot remain a lord if you refuse to bend the knee to the king or queen.
  5. The One Who Kneels

    Dany the Mad Queen was a terrible idea

    Lords of Westeros who fight against a person claiming the Iron Throne are traitors to that person. They have to bend the knee or stop being a lord. There is no way around this. Robb Stark was not claiming the Iron Throne and had no claim on the allegiance of any lord or knight sworn to it who was from outside of his own kingdom. He would've had to treat a Northern lord or Riverlander who fought for the Iron Throne against him just like Daenerys treated the Tarlys if he wanted to be considered King in the North and of the Trident. They would've had to bend the knee, go to the Wall, or die. Physical possession of a seat is not how feudal inheritance works and again it doesn't matter even if there was a legitimate dispute (except that it might make Tarly's obstinacy and loyalty more understandable). Daenerys Targaryen does not recognize that Cersei is queen anymore than Cersei recognizes Daenerys as queen. Any lord of Westeros who fought for Cersei is a traitor to Daenerys and vice versa.
  6. The One Who Kneels

    Dany the Mad Queen was a terrible idea

    How many people did Arya kill? She targeted bad people too. I guess we never noticed she was also developing into a mass murderer of helpless innocents. I mean if Arya had been running around King's Landing killing women and children instead of trying to save them it would've been totally foreshadowed and a reasonable path for her character to take based on all that killing (often brutal) she did right? That's the problem with this "doing bad things even to bad people has a price" argument. It was only ever reflected with one character and completely undermined everywhere else. Arya can murder tons of people and still want to save women and children and have a nice happy ending sailing off to be an explorer. Sansa can feed a horrid abuser to dogs and no believes it presages her developing into a potential mass murderer. Jon deals harshly with disobedience and treachery and no one pretends his actions are somehow unreasonable or something we should be concerned about. Tyrion incinerates thousands to prop up a horrid tyrant and murders his defenseless father with a crossbow and still gets to be the voice of morality and reason. Bronn is an amoral hired killer and he ends up one of the most powerful lords in Westeros. Brienne executes a defenseless wounded Stannis (what a fair trial he got!) and she's still the paragon of knighthood. You can go on and on with this.
  7. The One Who Kneels

    Dany the Mad Queen was a terrible idea

    Why did you cut out the part of my response where I explicitly answered this? It doesn't matter if Tarly really thought Cersei Lannister was his rightful Queen instead of Daenerys Targaryen (and think for a moment about what an absurd statement that is) once he picks a side in that conflict for the Iron Throne he is undeniably a traitor to the other side. When a lord rebels in Westeros and loses he either a) bends the knee if the monarch will let him (Daenerys offered this and Tarly rejected it) b) go to the Wall if the monarch will let him (Tyrion offered this and Tarly rejected it) or he gets executed as a traitor. Tarly rejected the first two options and got the third. What else was going to happen?
  8. The One Who Kneels

    Dany the Mad Queen was a terrible idea

    Demonstrating strength while showing a willingness to forgive her enemies is a bad choice? That's a first. Clearly answering a traitorous lord who pisses all over your offers of pardon or exile with a jail sentence until he reconsiders would be the sign of a good ruler. And yes she would look like a better option than Cersei Lannister before she burned the Tarlys and after she burned the Tarlys. Queen Cersei was one of the most embarrassingly stupid decisions the show ever made.
  9. The One Who Kneels

    Dany the Mad Queen was a terrible idea

    Daenerys should never have been in the situation in the first place. It beggars belief that Tarly would voluntarily side with Cersei against Daenerys, that he would reject Daenery's offer to bend the knee or that Dickon would choose to commit suicide (or that Randyll would let Dickon commit suicide even if he personally has a death wish). I've said before that another way to establish the Tarly execution to be more questionable is to have Randyll desperately try to take back his defiance and offer to bend the knee or take the black after Dickon makes his stupid gesture in an attempt to save his son only for Daenerys to coldly reject this and burn them both. But again the show didn't do this. Your overall point about the story is however correct. The story decided that Daenerys will end as a villain so stuff like executing lords who actively fight against you and reject all offers of mercy is lamely recast as foreshadowing and another step on the road (she burned prisoners!) to deliberately burning thousands of innocent civilians while when Jon opts to cut Slynt's head off for disobeying orders or hangs a traumatized orphan for mutiny rather than locking them up to think about what they did it's okay within the context of the world. It does matter a lot actually because "bend the knee or die (or go to the Wall)" are literally the only options for Westerosi lords sworn to the Iron Throne engaged in a civil war for control of said Iron Throne. Daenerys isn't cruel or unreasonable for presenting those choices to the Tarlys. That's literally just how it is.
  10. The One Who Kneels

    Dany the Mad Queen was a terrible idea

    Jon not's any different. We have no evidence he would've reacted to a lord actively siding with a usurper against him, refusing to bend the knee to Jon after he is defeated and refusing the Wall when that is offered by locking him up until he reconsiders. That would be absurd. Jon would just execute him. You could also ask yourself how was Cersei his queen? Because she was physically sitting on the Iron Throne? Don't think that's how inheritance works. He picked a side in a civil war for the throne and when you do you are plainly a traitor to the other side in that civil war. If you wanted to make the burning of the Tarlys more morally questionable maybe have them sitting out the war instead of actively taking up arms against Daenerys? But the show didn't do that. You're still refusing to see the obvious distinction between foreigners and Westerosi lords.
  11. The One Who Kneels

    Dany the Mad Queen was a terrible idea

    No it's a failure on the show's part because it's painfully apparent that the show stopped understanding how a feudal monarchy works and didn't realize that any monarch worth his salt in Westeros would've had to execute the Tarlys based on how they wrote the scene. You're back to the Robb Stark mistake of comparing the Tarlys (lords of Westeros) with Wildlings (foreigners). Daenerys wasn't Tarly's commander but she was his queen and in a feudal monarchy that binds Tarly to her as much as Slynt was bound to Jon Snow. It doesn't matter if Tarly refuses to recognize that Daenerys is the rightful queen just as it wouldn't have mattered if Slynt refused to recognize Jon as the rightful Lord Commander. If you back one claimant (Cersei, absurdly enough in this case) you're a traitor to the others. And if you refuse to bend the knee to the victorious claimant you're not going to get to be a lord anymore. If you then refuse to be exiled you're going to be executed. There is no way around this. Tyrion did offer Randyll Tarly the wall only for Tarly to reject it out of hand. The Tarlys effectively demanded that Daenerys execute them and we're supposed to blame Daenerys for what happened?
  12. The One Who Kneels

    Dany the Mad Queen was a terrible idea

    No he plainly swore fealty to the Iron Throne. Cersei is not pretending to be Queen of the Rock and Reach. Greatjon could not have sworn any oaths to Robb at the time Robb threatened to hang him since Robb was not even Lord of Winterfell (Ned was still alive) yet. Lords aren't released from their oaths with an option to renew every time their feudal superiors die and are succeeded by their heirs. If you back one claimant and the other one crushes your army and takes you prisoner you are going to end up bending the knee to the other claimant or you will cease to be a lord one way or another. If you then reject one way you can cease to be lord (exile) you are going to end up going the other way (execution). Which is what she was doing until Dickon marched up and demanded to be allowed to be executed too. Then Tyrion tries to dissuade Dickon by pointing out how stupid this is but he refuses to reconsider, When Janos Slynt defied Jon Snow's orders did Jon just have him locked up in an ice cell until he rethought his actions? Of course not. He executed him even as Janos Slynt cried and begged for mercy and forgiveness. It is ridiculous and completely out of the norms that Westeros operates in to expect Daenerys to not execute lords who openly defy her rule and spurn any alternatives to execution. The Tarly incident was a total failure if it was supposed to be foreshadowing or another step on the progression into Mad Queen Daenerys.
  13. The One Who Kneels

    Dany the Mad Queen was a terrible idea

    Cersei Lannister had zero claim to the Iron Throne. Daenerys Targaryen had a strong one (indeed the only real one as far as anyone knew). But even if you want to argue there was some dispute there the point is Robb could no more just let northern lords sworn to Winterfell who sided with a usurper against him off with a jail sentence than Daenerys could let the Tarlys off. The Robb/Daenerys comparison was conflating two completely things (treatment of foreign lords vs treatment of your own lords).
  14. The One Who Kneels

    Dany the Mad Queen was a terrible idea

    I agree with you overall but there's no contrast between what Robb and Daenerys did. Robb was fighting to be independent of course he was going to hold nobles from other regions for ransom/exchange. They weren't sworn to the King in the North. Lords sworn to Winterfell who fought against the Starks would absolutely get the same set of options that Daenerys gave the Tarlys. Remember when Robb threatened to hang the Greatjon as an oathbreaker if he went home? The Tarlys were sworn to the Iron Throne. They have to bend the knee to Daenerys who is claiming the Iron Throne. Holding them prisoner would've just deferred death or the wall to a later date. It is absurd to claim that Daenerys should've put the Tarlys in the cells to rethink their actions after Randyll rejected both offers of mercy and Dickon literally volunteered to die. In a sensible world no one would be shocked or concerned that Daenerys executed the Tarlys they'd be wondering why the Tarlys were both complete idiots who chose to commit suicide for Cersei Lannister.
  15. The One Who Kneels

    Bran Truly Was The Best Possible Choice To Rule

    Sure but if the Tyrells were going extinct why weren't the Tarlys fishing to see what Daenerys would offer them before committing? That would've been sensible and it would've been a good start to Daenery's downfall where she refuses the practical solution (just promise the Tarlys control of the Reach once Olenna dies) because she doesn't want to reward and elevate another noble asshole like Randyll Tarly who's only concerned with increasing his own power but this idealism creates a big headache for her in the Reach since none of the nobility is now particularly inclined to declare for her. Now you would've had a political situation that at least tries to make sense and you've laid the seeds for Mad Queen Daenerys. Instead we got absolute nonsense where a bunch of nobles willingly travel to King's Landing and volunteer to join Cersei. She killed her uncle and cousin when she blew up the Sept of Baelor. Also everyone in Westeros would suspect her of having Tommen murdered so she could steal his throne. Didn't mean to put you on the defensive. It's just the way you responded made it sound like unless I was interested in supplying ideas as to how what the show did made sense I shouldn't have been talking. Sorry if I misinterpreted that. I too can see what the showrunners wanted to communicate. But I don't think the overarching story holds up at all because they didn't really attempt to tell one. In Queen Cersei we literally don't know anything about how she holds the throne except that the writers gave it to her and had people act like she had authority when she should've had none and somehow Daenerys isn't immeasurably more popular than her because the writers say so. In King Bran we just have Tyrion give a speech about stories that convinces a bunch of nobles to unanimously elect a weird foreign teenager in a wheelchair as King of Westeros. There's not really anything there and a lot more missing than the details. And here's the thing again though based on what the show actually gave the viewers how are we supposed to consider King Bran or Queen Cersei as anything other than profoundly stupid? It throws out everything we were told about how politics in this world previously operated in order to elevate characters into positions they shouldn't be able to aspire to or hold. We can see this again in a minor fashion with Bronn, Sam, and to an extent Gendry. Now you or I can come up with our own reasoning as to how all of this could make sense but the show didn't and I can only judge the show based on what the show actually did. In the show Bran wasn't truly the best possible choice to rule. He was a terrible choice and no one should've ever chosen him.
×