asongofheresy

13 hours ago, Melifeather said:

It was a very weird exchange. Doesn't sound like GRRM at all. Who is King Harold in this series? Are you sure it isn't from Vikings? LOL

I think Harold is suppose to be Harren but yeah this is the part of the transcript leaked from Alys Rivers audition, this may not be the final script on the show but the part where she claims to be a barn owl is interesting - I may search about mentions of owls in the series 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fo9ZgjnWIBsh1mm?format=png&name=small

I don't know if HotD talk is allowed but transcript of Alys Rivers audition was leaked, here she claims to be a barn owl cursed to look like a woman. I wonder if it is possible for book Alys to be a skinchanger? 

Yes, the time is a circle and we are back to the beginning - I didn't see the photo before and I may missed the hype of it :D but yeah they seem to be R&L, is it possible for GRRM to release TWOW in 2024 and reveal some info about the False Spring? 

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSz66gruoPQNDcADnwlT9541r52um2iyr-swg&usqp=CAU

So.... What do we think about this image?

And about alpha and omega, so far the beginning and ending of our series are AGOT prologue and ADWD epilogue, in the beginning we had the Others being present while the Iron Throne and who ruled it only had a mention when Waymar Royce shouted Robert's name, and at the end we have Game of Thrones being the important thing while the Others lurks in the background with news of winter being carried on white wings. 

Daella Targaryen's Arryn husband, Betha Blackwood, Jena Dondarrion, Aelinor Penrose, Alys Arryn, Dyanna Dayne, Orys Baratheon, Selyse Florent 

Could names of characters work as wordplay? Melisandre remembers the name "Melony" and it maybe an anagram of lemony, she also has copper hair, is it a nod to Sansa in some way? 

5 hours ago, Seams said:

Very nice catch! The sore foot nickname links him to Ser Duncan the Tall, of all people, who is an Oedipus ("swollen foot") figure in The Sworn Sword:

I would never think to link Viserys to Dunk, aside from suspecting that Dunk has Blackfyre-Targaryen heritage.

I know the theory, though Dunk killing Daemon III while spearing another rebel, Lyonel Baratheon, is irritating when you consider its another kinslaying incident against the Blackfyres 

On 6/3/2021 at 2:20 AM, Seams said:

Myths / Smith

Legend / Leg end = foot

Rain / Reyne / Rhaenys / Rhaena 

Very new ideas and not yet entirely confirmed by passages from the books.

While walking the dogs today, I started wondering whether myths and smiths are a wordplay pair in ASOIAF. Smiths are people who make things or just workers in general: "According to Septon Meribald, the Smith can also be refer to as the Farmer, the Fisherman, the Carpenter, or the Cobbler as they all represent workers" (Wiki, citing AFfC, Brienne V). Catelyn prays to the Smith to help Bran; Davos makes offerings to the Smith before launching a new ship. 

If GRRM sees stories as something that can be crafted, then a link from smiths to myths could be a really interesting hint to readers. I wish I could remember who it was in this forum that pointed out that "named" chapters are probably parallels or replays of Westeros legends. If true, a connection between myths and smiths could help us to understand more about GRRM's structure of the books and the potential metaphor between weapons and armor (produced by smiths) and stories or myths.

But.

The word myth appears only three times in the books. All three uses of the word are in The World of Ice and Fire. The word "myth" never appears in the novels. I wonder whether GRRM avoids the word "myth" because it too strongly implies that a story is untrue; he is more likely to present a story as possibly true and possibly rumor - the unreliable narrator. Because the World book has co-authors, I wonder whether these uses of the word "myth" were introduced by the other writers and are not part of a deliberate word pair with the important smith archetype in the books. Even if GRRM did introduce the use of the word in the World book, it is not associate at any point with smiths. My gut tells me that GRRM's wordplay is usually more deliberate.

A link between legends and leg ends would be a giant step (so to speak) toward solving a longtime mystery: the symbolism of feet. If "leg end" is another word for a "foot," we may finally have a way to make sense of the foot references in the books. I noticed long ago that GRRM has fun with references to feet, but I couldn't figure out what they mean.

The septon could neither read nor write, as he cheerfully confessed along the road, but he knew a hundred different prayers and could recite long passages from The Seven-Pointed Star from memory, which was all that was required in the villages. He had a seamed, windburnt face, a shock of thick grey hair, wrinkles at the corners of his eyes. Though a big man, six feet tall, he had a way of hunching forward as he walked that made him seem much shorter. His hands were large and leathery, with red knuckles and dirt beneath the nails, and he had the biggest feet that Brienne had ever seen, bare and black and hard as horn.

"I have not worn a shoe in twenty years," he told Brienne. "The first year, I had more blisters than I had toes, and my soles would bleed like pigs whenever I trod on a hard stone, but I prayed and the Cobbler Above turned my skin to leather." (AFfC, Brienne V)

I would have done better to challenge Raff the Sweetling, with a whore upon my back, Jaime thought as he shook mud off his gilded hand. Part of him wanted to tear the thing off and fling it in the river. It was good for nothing, and the left was not much better. Ser Ilyn had gone back to the horses, leaving him to find his own feet. At least I still have two of those. (AFfC, Jaime V)

Edmure Tully had collapsed facedown on the scaffold when Ser Ilyn's blade sheared the rope in two. A foot of hemp still dangled from the noose about his neck. Strongboar grabbed the end of it and pulled him to his feet. "A fish on a leash," he said, chortling. "There's a sight I never saw before." (AFfC, Jaime VI)

Dunk wonders whether it would have been worthwhile to lose a foot if it meant sparing the life of Prince Baelor; Septon Meribald has bare, black feet that are "gnarled and hard as tree roots," squishers have webbed feet. And then there are feet as units of measure: Ser Clarence Crabb and Gregor Clegane were eight feet tall. 

If the theory is correct, I suspect that references to feet tell us we are dealing with something out of a legend. "Legend" is a word that appears 100 times in the books (so far) and may also appear in hidden ways such as references to "Gendel" and Gorne. Tall characters may be legendary figures - the have more "feet" than the average man. But a Jaime POV tells us the White Book of the King's Guard is two feet tall and one-and-a-half feet wide - perhaps signaling that there are legends of heroism contained within. 

I recently pondered whether GRRM intended for readers to compare the region of Dorne to a "foot" on the "body" of Westeros. If so, wordplay on feet and legends might help us to understand the unique relationship between these lands and the rest of the seven kingdoms. Prince Doran suffers from gout, of course, and is unable to use his feet. A cure for his gout might signal the beginning of a healthier relationship between Dorne and the rest of Westeros. 

The possible rain / Reyne / Rhaenys / Rhaena wordplay is the least developed of the puns in this post.

I have been searching for clues about a very fundamental layer of the ASOIAF story: if ice and fire are important, what are the other basic elements of this world? Blood? Water? Light? Color? Stone? Wind? Dirt? Jewels? Glass? Shadow? Seeds? Roots? Rain? 

I have long been intrigued by possible hidden meanings in the trio of Aegon the Conqueror and his sister wives, Visenya and Rhaenys. Why did Rhaenys disappear? Why did Aegon like her better than Visenya? Why did her descendants survive as the Targaryen rulers? Are there clues in the other "Rhaen-" queens and ladies that could provide insights about Rhaenys?

It struck me recently that there might be hints in the sound-alike "Rhaen-" names and the rain motif built around the Reynes of Castamere. Maybe the word "reign" should also be in the mix, if we are examining Targaryen queens. 

We know that the author intended a pun on "rain" and "House Reyne," as the song The Rains of Castamere refers to the drowning of that House as punishment for their disrespectful behavior toward House Lannister. 

If there is a link between rain, House Reyne and the Targaryen queens, my guess is that it has to do with the imbalance of seasons and the cycle of plant growth and death. (See my other posts about green and brown symbolism for more thoughts about this.) Does Tywin's treatment of House Reyne amount to the banishing of rain? He diverts a river into their home - maybe the symbolism involves flooding, not drought. But that would not be a very subtle cause and effect, so I suspect there is something less obvious but still related to that fundamental layer of Westeros conflict, older and deeper buried than the conflict over the Iron Throne. 

Viserys is called Khal Rhae Marr (sore foot King) and Khal Rhaggat (cart King) by Dothraki, so the foot motif continues. 

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

"Prince Daeron, born in 269, survived for only half a year."

Edit.: I just had a look at the wiki and the information is right on Daeron's page. ;-)

Ah, I didn't go to his page which explains why I missed it, I was looking at wiki timeline of years and Prince Daeron's death wasn't listed for 269 or 270ac, thank you. 

When did Daeron, son of Aerys and Rhaella died? The wiki gives 269 AC as his birth date but doesn't state when the prince died, we are just given information about deaths of other children of the couple, a stillborn in 270, a miscarriage in 271, death of Aegon in 273, and then death of Jaehaerys in 274, but no information about Daeron. 

4 minutes ago, Willam Stark said:

You have a more appropriate topic for that.

 

But a prediction will be about the future no? With the exception of Illyrio Saan reveal, the ones about lineages of Saera and Rogate are just world building, and Dalla is just a curiousity to point out, they share a name and both women are pregnant at their first introductions, though it could only be a hint that Stannis and Mance eventually meeting at some point like they did. 

Plus I already pointed out the theories are crackpot, but still they are theories and harmless besides. 

Would like to post some crackpots of mine, I believe Alicent Hightower, Mysaria, Serenei, and Serra are descendants of Saera Targaryen, in Alicent and Mysaria's case they are her daughters. Illyrio Mopatis is Salladhor Saan. Dalla wife of Mance Rayder, and Dalla the washerwoman from Cressen POV are the same person. Lysano Maar is a Rogare.

On 7/29/2019 at 3:55 PM, Megorova said:

But that's the thing - that bastard is her trump card, and because of him, it's likely, that Aegon became Daena's ally. It was because of Daemon's birth that King Baelor fasted for 40 days and died as result of it. So Daena had cleared for Aegon his path to Iron Throne, or at least thanks to this, he became one step closer to it. All that was left for him to become the King, is to get rid of King Viserys. And Viserys' sudden illnes does look suspicious.

When Aegon became King, he tried to war against Dorne, even though his son and heir was married with a Martell Princess. Daemon was born in 170, and Daeron's heir, Baelor Breakspear, was also born in 170, a bit earlier than Daemon, and he had typical Martell looks - dark hair and dark eyes. When Aegon was younger, he fought in a war against Dorne. So it's likely, that he wasn't Ok with his son and heir getting married with a Martell. Also it's likely, that he detested a mere idea, that a Martell-looking Baelor eventually will sit on Iron Throne, and will be wearing Targaryen crown. If Baelor did became the King of 7K, then he would have been the very first non-Valyrian looking King in nearly 200 years of Targaryen reign.

Daena had managed to escape from Maidenvault not once but three times. That time, when she got pregnant, was the last one. And the timing of it doesn't look like a coincidence, it corresponds with Princess Mariah's pregnancy. It was known, that Aegon disliked his wife and Daeron, his views about Dorne were also common knowledge. So it's likely, that Daena decided to take action, because she made a plan to offer to Aegon solution to his problem - she offered to give him a purely Valyrian heir. Daemon was same age as Baelor Breakspear. It's obvious, that Aegon would have preferred Daemon to become the King of 7K, not his Martell-looking grandson.

Maybe, that's the reason why Daena decided to hook up with Aegon. It's likely, that she was pondering over several different ways to get herself out of Maidenvaul permanently. And her first two plans didn't worked, so offering to Aegon to become the mother of his pure-blooded heir, was her last resort. At that time Aegon was 39 or 40 years old, he was already past his prime, and getting fat and ugly. So it's unlikely, that she hooked up with him because of love or lust.

If that was so, if the father of Daena's child was a man, that she loved, and that man wasn't Aegon, then why didn't she just stayed with that man? Her marriage with King Baelor was annuled. She could have just married with that guy, but she returned back to Maidenvault, which is an evidence, that where she wanted to be is at Targaryen court, not elsewhere. And the reason, why she returned, is because she was pregnant, and the father of her child was Aegon, and they possibly made a deal concerning that child.

We actually don't know anything about Daena beside the fact she was in Maidenvault, we don't know how close Daemon and Baelor was born and who was born first, so most things are speculation, but I will say I agree Daemon and Baelor was raised as rivals. But I don't think Aegon ever supported or cared for Daena. If the father of child was married or let's say a KG then there is no way Daena could be with that man. Or maybe GRRM decided Daena could die during birth and be done with a it. 

@Megorova I don't think Daena needed a Promise from Aegon, he seemed to prefer his family members close to him wether or not the relationship was strained, we can see that with Manfred Lothson as well whom I suspect could be his son, but really a child will only ruin Daena's chances of support for ruling, she has no allies for being locked in Maidenvault and has a bastard she chose to keep, even though a virtuous queen would be liked more, I think for whatever reason Daena loved this man. 

@Seams I meant to ask if it is possible when Blackfyres escaped they couldn't save one child though we don't know if lady Blackfyre gave birth to post mortem child and how many children she had before the rebellion. 

@Megorova I am questioning the fact Daena had a thing with Aegon in the first place, not assuming she had relationship with the different Valyrian men

@Seams I have a question, it was mentioned cutting braid is connected to Eleana, is it possible GRRM will retcon Blackfyre family tree in F&B and it will be revealed he actually married daughter of Eleana? Is it possible Dunk isn't illegimate but legimate son of Daemon? Do you have any candidate for Daemon's father if he wasn't Aegon IV? I think a Velaryon or Dragonknight are always possible. 

@Seams why do you think Aemon is father of Daeron and Aegon is father of Daemon? This will be something I will never understand since Daemon and Daeron don't take after their supposed fathers. Daemon is the Warrior himself and fathered by a glutton, while the other pot bellied one is fathered by THE Dragonknight? I think Daemon isn't son of Aegon and Daeron is trueborn, I may question legitimacy of Daenerys though. 

@Seams great thread and thank you for the anagram website, I was thinking of what Mance Rayder stands for and one of the results were A Merry Dance, which reminds me Ashara since she is known for her dance partners at Harrenhall, but dance could be sword fighting too. Dayne Mac Err is another possibility, which would point to a Dayne son who is a bastard? I have hard time believing Egg when it comes to Aerion visiting him because Aerion doesn't have that many brothers. Daeron is older and Aemon is a Maester. Aerion also doesn't lack sisters to marry and indeed doesn't have any desire to marry them since she is married to his cousin. 

4 hours ago, mzso said:

You mean khat? Well, no-one was described as getting high from sourleaf.

Yes, sigh sad really of asoiaf universe. 

2 hours ago, mzso said:

WTF is qqat?

With the addictive chewing it's clearly meant as a tobacco analog.

That's rather sad.

It wouldn't make sense to include any of these since they didn't became widespread worldwide until after the middle ages, which twoiaf is based on. So no coffee, tea, chocolate, etc. Maybe GRRM will conjure up another analog for one of them.

Qqat or qat is a plant native to Yemen and Horn of Africa, it is a local choice of getting high. 

19 hours ago, mzso said:

I don't think so, at least none was shown yet. Sourleaf is more like tobacco, but red and leaves a stain of the teeth.

But what if it is qqat and Marwyn is high 90% of the time? But asoiaf isn't somewhere I would love to live if there is no caffeine! What about tea? Are they made from different herbs or is there black tea too? 

Is there any asoiaf equal of coffee? Do they have caffeine?? I think the leaves Marwyn chews is qqat plant of Yemen but is there any region like Mocha and Kaffa in asoiaf that blesses you with much needed caffeine? 

Anyone interested in Blackfyre threads? 

Is it okay if I post my observations about Gemstone Emperors, LoN and MMoL here? 

I also believe Blue Fork of the Trident might be related to Blue Heart/Nissa Nissa/Pureborn but I will not post anything new until I find out what Red Fork and Green Fork represents - ugh I think I will have to search about Reeds more. 

3 hours ago, divica said:

With Aegon arianne can be queen and get out of her father's shadow and control.

As long as Aegon is a little atractive and interesting arianne will be interested… And given what we know about Aegon and arianne she would be able to play Aegon any way she wanted. 

But Arianne wants to rule Dorne not be a Queen to a Targaryen Prince who is like 9 years younger and potentially be crazy. And if a young man is going to be doomed or achieve his salvation he needs Jane, or a Jeyne maybe Jenny but Jayne is fine too.