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.H.

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  1. .H.

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    Alright, alright, quit beating me up about it, I'll see if I can watch it this weekend, but probably not, got a lot to move.
  2. .H.

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    Hmm, that is an interesting question. I guess then we are asking if it is possible to invoke something beyond the perceptual horizon? As in, I don't doubt the gods could see the Sarcophagus itself, but they cannot see it's metaphysical implications. Not in the same way they can see "ordinary" mortals, with "ordinary" souls/spirits. Is this what damned the Progenitors, perhaps? That they were able, somehow to completely break the "chains" of what the gods intended for them and so court things completely outside the Outside's ability to comprehend? Perhaps it is akin (only in the most superficial way) to how we can make a light-bulb that can produce light we cannot see (say, ultra-violet light). In a "similar" way, this could explain why Ajokli needs Kellhus, he is the UV filter, so-to-speak. He is a filter by which Ajokli can "see" the Ark, the Golden Room and so on. I mistakenly recalled a part of the series implying that the Hundred did not see Kellhus, but it looks like I misunderstood what was being said in that part. Even so, the question of how the Progenitors then came to make the No-God, a thing that seems to be outside The God's plan, without a (some sort of) will given to them by a divine source. This then would seem to mean one of two things. Either the Progenitors (and presumably some others) can be outside The God's (or the God of Gods') plan. Or that the No-God is The God of Gods' plan and the Hundred simply aren't privy to that knowledge. I guess there is also a third option, that there is a meta-plan, outside The God of Gods'. Perhaps that third option could be that Kellhus ascends to divinity.
  3. .H.

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    I see what you are saying. Essentially, Eärwa is a damnation factory. It is made to predeterminedly drive Spirits to damnation and the clutches of hungry gods. The question though would be, why bother? As in, if all Spirits are going to be damned anyway, nothing on Eärwa even makes a difference. Everything that will happen hasn't already happened. So, then why cycle souls? It's actually a net loss, since some souls get stuck in places. Would it then just be because, I guess, a material world just happened to exist? Well, at first they saw him and he saw himself succeed though, right? So, in the Outside, he already did kill Kellhus. Except when it came down to it, he didn't. That's where little Kel threw the whole of Eternity, as the gods could see it, off. So, in that sense, everything isn't predetermined. Except that it is. It's predetermined, only until something else changes it. The No-God is one of those things. But I guess maybe there could be others? Is Kellhus one of those things? Or partially so?
  4. .H.

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    It's hard to tell with these sorts of things. Especially when someone went ahead and intentionally made them more confusing. Thanks Bakker,
  5. .H.

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    I think that Sci was saying was that if Spirits are devoured because they are desirable for their damnation-characteristic, then a method of damning them is needed. If they were simply predestined to be damned, they would already be damned in the Outside from their onset and so could already have been devoured upon having existed. In this case, Eärwa would have no purpose, although you are correct, that does not preclude it existing. Everyone damned was and is already and everyone saved also is already. In fact, it would have all already happened. I mean, perhaps that already actually has happened? Is that what actually plays out in the books? Simply the action of apriori damned Spirits realizing this fact? If, and it's a big if, that is what @Sci-2 meant. Yeah, sorry, forgot to be clear, killing Kelmomas to avert his becoming the No-God. Because in the Outside, the WLW already did succeed. Just as the No-God did rise. I guess I am failing to wrap my head around why one could change and the other couldn't. Because with one the gods still existed and the other precludes their end? Does that change what Kellhus could have done?
  6. .H.

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    That's a good point. If there was no space with an Arrow, than Spirits never get marked by Souls, so the gods can never harvest differentiation. Perhaps then also, they cannot even be differentiated. Right, but there seems to be some element to me that says a Psyche could be free? As in, the aim to true become a self-moving soul? Even if that ends up a failure. Is it even possible in Eärwa, I guess we should ask then? But Kellhus could have averted it in the same way he averted the WLW? I mean, in theory, right? That was the harp of my Abrahamic parallel point from threads and threads ago. That Kellhus could have made a choice and sacrificed little Kel and averted the whole thing, if only he could recognize it's (spiritual/transcendental) necessity. Or maybe I am just delusional and seeing what I "want" to. I'm going to have to read that with my "good brain," thanks. Leave it to Bakker to ever make cryptic statements and loosey-goosey with the terminology to boot.
  7. .H.

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    I don't think I can prove it, because we can't demark Kellhus from Ajokli in the whole series, however, I do think that Kellhus has some measure of will. Just what it is free of or not is not clear. For example, not killing little Kel for the sake of Esmenet (or whatever) doesn't seem like something Ajokli would have him do. So, something had him do that, although it's hard to say what. Something about "darkness coming before" and all that jazz. I guess, when it comes to Eärwa, the question of the will being free is the question of if the Spirit is free. The body does what the Soul (the Psyche) tells it, the Soul, in turn, is born out of the Body, so is not independent. It can only be the Spirit that then would be "free" but only if it is then free from influence of other things in the Spiritual realm. Maybe? I dislike when time gets all timey-whimey, because my brain simply doesn't get it. Maybe I am just not smart enough. Confusingly enough, I think he is talking about Christian God, in the real world there.
  8. .H.

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    Hmm, I'm interested in learning more about this. Could you recommend a starting point? Yeah, it's like he often is a poster-child for his own theory though...which, I don't know, is ironic? Or perfectly illustrative? Or something?
  9. .H.

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    That's true. But then, if we follow that line of though, no one actually has choice. Indeed, I think the method of thinking, that Mimara is the point at which The God enters the world, is much the same as Kellhus being the point at which Ajokli enters the world. Hmm, that's an interesting thought and not just of Eärwa. Are "sins" arbitrary, in the real world? Although I can't "prove" it one way or the other, I'm not so sure. Although I can more readily recognize that the label of "Holy" could be more arbitrary. It certainly depends on how we choose to define "Holy" and unfortunately the books themselves don't give us many examples to build on. I don't know that the physically properties of hydrogen are actually arbitrary either, for that matter, thinking on it more. Geometry, physics and other distinctly mathematical properties determine that, in a way that might seem arbitrary from a human rational standpoint, but are distinctly rational once the underlying mechanisms are exposed. In the same way, nickel has the more tightly bound nucleus, follow by iron, which, is arbitrary from the standpoint of there being a whole periodic table to choose from, why those two? No one chose them, true. But the "rules of the game" that is, physics determined it to be so. Perhaps I am misapprehending the notion here, but I don't think most sins are really vastly different, even though they do not necessarily come from such an objective frame. To take a real world example, the "sin" of eating pork was very rationally grounded, since improperly cooked pork was rather dangerous. It then really isn't so arbitrary that pigs were considered "filthy" and "unholy." Now, it could be that on Eärwa things are just arbitrary, I mean, of course they are, Bakker simply just chose them. But not so arbitrary that pretty much all of them came from some real-world religion or other. So, they are based off something, but something more nebulous and less discrete than physics. Well, that is true, but objectivity can be relative. Just because Eärwa itself is the most objective compared to Outside, doesn't make it 100% objective or even close. It just is the most objective of the subset of frames we see (which is also very small). Unless it means Eärwa is the most objective of all possibly frames, which is definitely false, on account of fact of sorcery. Or, at least it would seem to me. Hmm, yeah, but actually I don't think Mimara is a MacGuffin at all, if I understand the term correctly. "An object or device in a movie or a book that serves merely as a trigger for the plot." Well, if we minus Mimara from, say, TUC, we actually still have the exactly same plot, just minus her "contributions." So, the book would still end the same way, just minus the baby, which has no bearing on what actually happened. So, she didn't trigger anything, plot wise. So, then what the hell is Mimara's role? Well, I think the point I have been trying to make, possibly wrongly, is that she is there not for narrative, plot purposes, but for thematic, setting purposes. That doesn't really "redeem" Mimara's character, but I think it does alter what her "role" was. Still, like an incomplete 5th, we are left hanging without a completion of her thematic role all the same. Perhaps I am splitting hairs though... I do think we have some plausible answers to what Kellhus was up to, but not exactly where he was going with it all. He needed Ajokli to overcome the Mutilated. The Ordeal was just a distraction to gain him entrance into the Golden Room, plus a suffering factory to keep Ajokli interested and the other gods at bey. Post-Golden Room, had it worked? Well, we don't know canonically.
  10. .H.

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    Eärwa certainly confounds with it's nature being so similar to the real world and yet so subtly different. On Mimara, well, I think a minor point I would divide out is that her intentions and the God's intentions aren't specifically one. That is to say that Mimara's intentions are still her own. The God couldn't care less if the Wight stayed there or not. But Mimara certainly did. In this way, she is right to declare that she holds the Gates. This is not divine justice carried out by Mimara. No, this is Mimara's justice carried out by the divine. That distinction is important, at least in my estimation, because it means that Mimara is the locus of Judgement, the Eye only a tool to that end. The "stillborn" issue, it was pointed out to me, seems to be a linguistic play on words, in the same manner as Éowyn can kill the Witch King in LotR. She is no man, rightly. So, Mimara does carry a stillborn, just also a living baby as well. Continuing, the issue of what is Holy and what then Profane, that definitely is tricky. It seems that things that foster differentiation are things that are perditious. So, Unity Concepts are Holy concepts. In this manner, it makes sense that we are given allusions to the Ordeal being Holy (many come together to one purpose) but it doesn't really answer why, say, Storks are Holy animals. We can resolve this by then allowing symbols to be Holy, as Symbols of Unity Concepts. So, the Concepts are Holy, the Symbols are Holy. Then, we have one more step, I would imagine, that actions, actions that Unify are then Holy. This is far more sticky though and I'm not sure it can be borne out. I'm getting afield though. I think your point though, that Hundred are not aware of Mimara's Eye is most probably true. That being said, I think that the Hundred "mirror" humanity in the sense that they personalities fostered and driven by (and as) divisions. That is to say, I do not think they fathom themselves are (false) divisions of the same whole, in the same manner that most people do not imagine themselves as (false) divisions of the same whole. So, Yatwer has no desire or care for the Unity Concept. That is, Yatwer, much like the living, does not strive to be more through less, that is, to achieve Zero-As-One, but rather, marks itself out for maximal differentiation from the whole (imagining one can approach One-As-Zero). I think this might speak to the "point." That is, that mathematically, Unity can be achieved through Zero-As-One or One-As-Zero, but metaphysically, this is a false equivalence. One cannot become Zero, but Zero can be as One. Meaning that the route to salvation, that is, the cessation of "hunger" is not gained in the eating, but rather in the losing. This is the route of the most extreme sacrifice. Hmm, I'm not sure how to square this. Could it be related to an idea that the world, the manifest world, i.e. the Inside, Eärwa itself, is something not of what we think of our world, that is, an objective world of objective objects, but rather a subjective world that is, as Peterson puts it, "a forum for action." That is to say, in a manner, that Eärwa is a battleground of ideas, writ out large on the playing ground of every living thing. This fits Bakker's intent, I believe. That is to say, the model a world that fits with our "pre-scientific" conceptions of reality. From Peterson's Maps of Meaning: Hmm, upon reading my own words, I was at a loss to even understand just what I was trying to say. Having let it bake overnight, I think I have returned to understand what it was I was trying to convey. So, the Hundred, as divisions have a desire to return to wholeness and since they are differentiated, the see the route to wholeness as through further differentiation. So, they hunger for completeness and crave differentiation to attempt to fill this need. Damnation is the marked differentiation of the Spirit/Soul. The trick though, what they do not realize, is that the manner of completeness is achieved not through acquisition, but through loss. One can approach One but cannot ever reach it: the infinite shattering of the infinite God are infinite. One can achieve Zero, through whole loss. One-As-Zero is pinnacle of Completeness (One) as possession of all differentiation (One as possession of all perspectives, unity though aquisition). Zero-As-One is the Completeness through forfeiture of perspective alltogethers. In light of the origin, all divisions are false. Yeah, I think Bakker definitely plays with us. He realizes our biases, generally, and so throws stuff in to appeal to our "modern" (or post-Modern) sensibilities. Right, I think this gets down to the real meat of things. That Kellhus could realize this, were he prepared to sacrifice, in the "Abrahamic" sense that I have, to some chagrin, been apt to mention. But Kellhus, by virtue of his tyrant's stance, has no desire to endure loss. And so he will lose. Kellhus imagines himself as being able to achieve One, even if he realizes that Zero is the fundiment. This is because Kellhus still embraces his own intellect as being capable of superseding the fundamental nature of the universe. In other words, just like the Consult, Kellhus demands the world change rather than he, or rather I should say demand changing the world into that of his vision. While he might know that the whole Completeness is beyond him, he, as Bakker has alluded to extra-textually, still has the illusion of sufficiency. He can't accept that even as the most powerful being in the Universe, he is still apt to failure, none-the-less. It's all confounded because his methods are bad, his intentions are bad, just seemingly not "as bad" as the Consult. So, like the "trolley problem" we are morally inclined to view Kellhus as "less bad." It's Mimara who is what could even be considered a real "savior." I think in this sense, Moë the Elder show us the folly of discounting the Outside, Kellhus the folly of imagining it something that the intellect can conquer, and so Koringhus the fact that the only way "out" is forfeiture. This is part of why the end of TUC tends to feel hollow. The expectation is to follow through and have Mimara, the savior, actually save. But that's the kind of crap-tastic world that Eärwa is paralleling the worst aspects of the real world, to approach the "crash space" and ask, "what good is all the moral meta-physical fundiment in the face of amoral demands to rewrite the very nature of existence?"
  11. .H.

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    Ack, too much to respond to at the end of the work day. I shall be back to raving again in the morning. I definitely got myself tied up in a few linguistic knots there, hopefully I can untie them...
  12. .H.

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    Good point. I can think of a couple plausible things that might have happened: Kellhus somehow found/made a nook in the Outside where Ajokli can't see; Kellhus's (Spirit/Soul) is actually in one of Decapitants or another head he swapped with the second; Ajokli's ability to see is hampered by the No-God. Of them, the last one seems least likely, the second the most likely, and the first, well, I don't have any idea if that is likely or not. Kellhus did seem to be able to devise methods to avoid the "usual" problems of "traveling" the Outside with the Head-on-a-Pole method, seemingly, so it doesn't seem out of the question that he was prepared to hide his soul in the worst case. Just not clear at all how he might. Yeah, it's real hard to know when Kellhus is just throwing shit out there to manipulate, or if he actually is buying into his own spiel. I think you bring up a good point though, is that, well, Kellhus is more. Just what "more" exactly means is not at all clear. All we seem to really know is that Kellhus is apt to follow The Logos only so far. What is after that isn't clear to us and it might not be clear to Kellhus himself. My guess is that Kellhus realizes the insufficiency of the Logos and the insufficiency of the gods/God and is actually trying to play both sides against himself being appointed some intermediary between the two. Maybe?
  13. .H.

    Underwhelmed by Tolkien

    Wait, do you seriously want people to try to argue against your opinion? Can I convince you that you should like chocolate better than vanilla? I mean, I'm sure it is a fact that you didn't enjoy reading it. By the same token, it is a fact that others have read it and enjoyed it. Yes. If you are not interested in, or don't like moral relativism; if you enjoy fantastic moral clarity; or a number of other reasons (I can't think of off the top of my head, because I am no Tolkien scholar) you could perfectly well enjoy reading the books outside their simple designation as "classics."
  14. .H.

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    Hmm, in fact, I round-aboutly came across the same sort of idea from a completely different place in the last week. No such thing as coincidence though, must mean something. Hmm, could it be that Mimara's "power" to banish that Wight is similar to the sort of "thuamaturgy" we see Kellhus-Ajokli wield versus the Mutilated? I.e. not sorcery (i.e. of the psyche, read: soul) but of divine providence (i.e. of the pneuma, read: spirit). That is to say, I somewhat disagree that Mimara's power is "setting the world" to a more "naturalistic" state. Because, as you say, Eärwa's "natural state" is that of enchantment. So, the Wight's position is eminently natural. Which, of course it is, because it is. What Mimara seems to be doing, rather, is waking the God. That is, "fixing" the frame, such that the world is as it should be, by Mimara's judgement. This might well be the role of the Judging Eye. That is, the same role taken on by by God-as-Christ, post-Job, in rendering the perspective of God from the mortal vantage. (This could easily be bias on my part, as I have at other times personally noted that there is a plausible parallel of sorts between Mimara and a Christ-figure.) Your last point though is interesting though, since if the soul is not pleromantic, or of the Outside, but of the psyche (i.e. Logos, if not The Logos) than it is more confusing how the soul is enduring, when the mind (that is, the physical brain) is not. The only way I think I can square that, off the top of my head, is to say that the Spirit (i.e. the divine spark in each individual, gained at birth) is imprinted by the Soul (i.e. the psyche) in an indelible, or at least semi-permanent manner. So, it may not be your soul passing on, but rather your Spirit so imprinted by your soul. Your Spirit, of course, being your share on the One. Your soul's delusion, of course, is that it is both the Spirit itself and separate from the One. Both are incorrect. However, I think I need to preface the use of One though. One is not the Unity. As Koringhus puts it, it would be the Zero-as-One. For brevity's sake, I shall continue to just use One to denote this, even though the actual unity concept must be Zero-as-One. Well, if we follow our earlier line of thinking, it isn't the Soul than, rather it is the Spirit. The Spirit is the division of the One, the Soul is the manifest world's interface to the Spirit. That is, the Body does not work directly on the Spirit, rather it is Mind, the Psyche, that so interfaces the Pleromantic (Outside). In this way, Ciphrang are Spirits who's Body/Soul so marred them as to be completely incapable of assimilating back into the One. Or, at least, so marred as to be incapable of existing within the Pleroma (Outside) without extreme discomfort. So, a Ciphrang could be a thing so temperamentally opposed to the Unity concept (that is, so distinctly marred as to maintain identity) that it cannot and never will be able to rejoin the One, or join oblivion. It's a forever torper, hungering when nothing can feed. Well, I think you have relapsed a bit. Souled being simply flavoring for Spirits. It is Spirits that the 100 harvest, gaining greater share of One. Souls simply give "taste" to the Spirit. In that vein: This is little Kel's internal discussing with his Voice. So the 100, divisions of the Zero-as-One, desire divisions of Spirit, to demark their existence as One-not-Zero. Damnation, as Kellhus puts it, "is their harvest" because damnation, the Soul's selfish tainting of the Spirit as to exclude it from Zero-as-One, i.e. as Indentity, helps to define the Hundred. This means that Koringhus is even more correct. The way out of the trap of Eärwa is regressive. Or at least, regressive of the Self. The Logos is another trap, so perhaps this is why Kellhus (mostly) abandons it? Yes, yes, I believe now we are getting somewhere. I'd say it a bit differently though, that one must realize that these is no Self, rather is it a delusion of perspective. —MEMGOWA, CELESTIAL APHORISMS It's hard to say, because if you read TTT Chapter 10, where my above quote comes from, Kellhus seems to "get" this. The question than is, what of it? Koringhus seems to have been able to "get it." But only through the lens of Mimara, through her forgiveness, and (the) Eye. I think Kellhus could have found that, but he doesn't seem to have. In other words, it would seem that Kellhus knew the fundamental nature of the meta-physics, but still (like the Consult) demanded the world to change rather him change to it. In other words, I do not buy that Kellhus ever gave up his Self, or allowed his Soul to die to his Spirit. No, in the way Bakker likens it, I'd say it makes sense that Kellhus is "dead but not done." He is at minimum a Ciphrang, a Spirit too marred by his Soul to be devoured. But considering his power, perhaps even more. If the Fanim are right, that the Hundred are basically Ciphrang, than Kellhus might well be a near god-like Ciphrang.
  15. .H.

    Bakker LV - Nau's Ark

    It is definitely something we have discussed before. There really isn't anything textual to point directly one way or another, but it is a plausible reading that Moe had something to do with conditioning Kellhus' path. Another option, of course, is that something else (Ajokli, Anagkë, et. al.) was responsible for Kellhus' "favored" journey into the Three Seas. If you want Moe the Elder's TTT to be the "prime mover" of events in Darkness, it is a eminently plausible that he, knowing the Shortest Path he took and so Kellhus would also take, would place some safeguards to assure that Kellhus would walk completely on Conditioned Ground in reaching him. It's a little hard to believe that Leweth has been out there for something like 30 years though, at that point, being "in his middle years" would have made his relationship with his wife either something from a young age, or very short. That's not out of the realm of plausibility, but also not anything that lends credence either. If you take a wider look, post-TAE and the more "direct" involvement of the Hundred, it isn't all that implausible that some external force was actually Conditioning Kellhus' journey. The likely culprit here would be Ajokli, since he has most to gain from Kellhus actually making it to where he "needs" to go.
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