Jump to content

Megorova

Members
  • Content count

    1,698
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by Megorova

  1. Megorova

    Conjectures on Robert Arryn’s Paternity

    In my opinion, Robert Arryn was born in second half of 291. According to the Wikia, he was born in 292. It was based on this calculations: It seems to me, that those calculations could be incorrect. Information from the books, about Robert's age: ""Six, and sickly, and Lord of the Eyrie, gods have mercy," the king swore."" - AGOT, Eddard I; "Her uncle's voice was troubled. "Lord Robert," he sighed. "Six years old, sickly, and prone to weep if you take his dolls away. Jon Arryn's trueborn heir, by all the gods, yet there are some who say he is too weak to sit his father's seat."" - AGOT, Catelyn VI; "It had been five years, in truth; five cruel years, for Lysa." " "This is your aunt Catelyn, baby. My sister, Lady Stark. Do you remember?" The boy glanced at her blankly. "I think so," he said, blinking, though he had been less than a year old the last time Catelyn had seen him." "She remembered her own baby, three-year-old Rickon, half the age of this boy and five times as fierce." Robert's age in Appendixes: 6 in AGOT, 8 in ACOK, 8 in ASOS, 8 in AFFC, 8 in ADWD. Rickon's age in Appendixes: 3 in AGOT, 4 in ACOK, 4 in ASOS, 4 in AFFC, 4 in ADWD. Events in AGOT are happening in 298 and a very early 299; ACOK in 299; ASOS and AFFC in second half of 299 and a very early 300 (Joffrey's wedding, first day of year 300 AC, is depicted in chapters 59-61 of ASOS, and in that book there are 80 chapters, so 3/4 of that book was taking place in 299, and a last 1/4 in 300); ADWD in 300, and the timeframe of this book goes further into 300 than AFFC, but not further than first half of 300 (because by the time of Dany's last chapter in ADWD, her 16th birthday hasn't happened yet, and her birthday is not earlier than May). Combination of all this information gives us this: By the time of King's arrival to Winterfell, Rickon's birthday of that year has already happened (he was born in early 295). Rickon is half of Robert's age. In Appendixes when Rickon is 3, Robert is 6, and when Rickon is 4, Robert is 8. In 298, at the time of Catelyn's visit at the Eyrie, Robert is still 6, and Rickon is several months past 3, but not yet 3 and a half, because when Rickon will be 3 years and 6 months old, at that time Robert will turn 7, because he is twice older than Rickon. Thus Rickon is 3.5 years younger than Robert, and Robert's birthday is 6 months after Rickon's birthday. If Rickon was born in January, then Robert was born in July; Ri-February - Ro-August; Ri-March - Ro-September; Ri-April - Ro-October; Ri-May - Ro-November; Ri-June - Ro-December. Last time, when Catelyn saw Robert, he was less than 1 year old. For example, if he was born in July 291, then last time she saw him was in June of 292 (or some other month before July), and her current visit at the Eyrie is happening before June (or before that some other month), in May or April or March of 298. If he was born in August 291, last visit was in July 292 or earlier (prior his birthday of that year), current visit in June or earlier (the month of her current visit in 298, is earlier in a year, than the month of her last visit in 292). Born in September 291, last visit in August 292 or earlier, current visit in July 298 or earlier. Born in October 291, last visit in September 292 or earlier, current visit in August 298 or earlier. Born in November 291, last visit in October 292 or earlier, current visit in September 298 or earlier. Born in December 291, last visit in November 292 or earlier, current visit in October 298 or earlier. So since Catelyn saw Robert previous time, passed less than 6 full years, passed 5 years (and months, anywhere between 1 and 11 months). "five cruel years, for Lysa" in which Catelyn didn't saw her sister is 293, 294, 295, 296, 297 (or 292-293, 293-294, 294-295, 295-296, 296-297). Catelyn saw Lysa in 292 and 298, so this two years are not one of those five years, in which they haven't seen each other (297-298 is already a 6th year, but in 298 they met earlier than the month of their separation in 292). Robert was born in second half of 291. So he was conceived either in late 290, or in early 291. Edit: Robert was 8 both in 299 (in appendixes of ACOK, ASOS, AFFC, ADWD) and 8 in 300 (in ASOS Sansa VI, when Lysa arrived to the Fingers, she said, that Robert is 8. Robert is 8 after Lysa's death, in AFFC Sansa I). Eight years old in both 299 and 300, means, that his 8th birthday happened in 299, which means, that he was born in 291. Also, if he was 8 in 299 and in 300, then he wasn't 8 in 298, and because it is known, that in 298 he was 6, it also means, that later in 298 he turned 7, which again means, that he was born in 291. At certain point in time, in 298, during Catelyn's visit to the Eyrie, Robert is twice older than Rickon, but he's not going to be twice older in next month, same as he wasn't twice older in previous month. So Catelyn's visit in 298 takes place in time-slot, when Robert, who is 6 years and several months old, is twice older than Rickon, who at that time is 3 years and several months old. Thus, it's possible to calculate, when exactly Catelyn visited the Eyrie. It seems, that I made a small mistake in my previous calculation - age difference between Robert and Rickon is not 3 years and 6 months, it's 3 years and 5.5 months. At the time of Cat's visit, Robert, who is twice older, is 6 years and 11 months or 83 months old, and Rickon is 3 years and 5 and a half months old (or 41.5 months old). Though I could be wrong about this part. But it's definite, that Robert was born in 291, not in 292. Back to OP: "Ten years ago, Jon Arryn had given him a minor sinecure in customs, where Lord Petyr had soon distinguished himself by bringing in three times as much as any of the king's other collectors." - ACOK, Tyrion IV. This scene is happening in first half of 299, so ten years ago was in first half of 289, that's when Petyr joined court (because that "minor sinecure in customs" is something like a post in a "Ministry of Economics" of 7K, his post was something like a tax-collector). "Littlefinger's rise had been arrow-swift. Within three years of his coming to court, he was master of coin and a member of the small council" - "within three years" means, that since his appointment to court has passed less than 3 full years. So, first half of 289 - first half of 290 - 1rst year, first half of 290 - first half of 291 - 2nd year, first half of 291 - first half of 292 - 3rd year. Thus, Petyr became Master of Coin in time-slot between first half of 291 and first half of 292. And Robert was conceived either in late 290, or in early 291. To me it looks like after "Two babes stillborn, twice as many miscarriages" (AGOT, Calelyn VI) of Jon Arryn's children, Lysa got pregnant from Petyr, and finally gave birth to a living child. And, to reward Petyr for that, convinced her husband to appoint Petyr as a Master of Coin. And since then she continued their affair. This - "The Grand Maester nodded. "I recall now, the widow is sister to your own noble wife. If an old man may be forgiven his blunt speech, let me say that grief can derange even the strongest and most disciplined of minds, and the Lady Lysa was never that. Since her last stillbirth, she has seen enemies in every shadow, and the death of her lord husband left her shattered and lost." (AGOT, Eddard V) - looks to me, that after her last stillbirth, she began an affair with Petyr, and that's the real reason, why since then she was behaving like a paranoid - because she was afraid, that someone will find out about her ongoing infidelity. And this looks like she's admitting, that Robert is Petyr's son, because Jon Arryn couldn't give her pleasure, and couldn't give her children, his seed was old and weak and his breath was stinking, while Petyr's breath was always fresh and, if we will continue analogy, his seed was strong, and he gave Lysa her long awaited baby - "Petyr's breath is always fresh . . . he was the first man I ever kissed, you know. My father said he was too lowborn, but I knew how high he'd rise. Jon gave him the customs for Gulltown to please me, but when he increased the incomes tenfold my lord husband saw how clever he was and gave him other appointments, even brought him to King's Landing to be master of coin. That was hard, to see him every day and still be wed to that old cold man. Jon did his duty in the bedchamber, but he could no more give me pleasure than he could give me children. His seed was old and weak. All my babies died but Robert, three girls and two boys. All my sweet little babies dead, and that old man just went on and on with his stinking breath." ASOS, Sansa VI. Jon kept having sex with her, kept going with his stinking breath/weak seed, even though all of his babies were non-viable, unlike Robert. So, I think that it's highly likely, that the real father of Robert Arryn is actually Petyr Baelish.
  2. Megorova

    What Keeping the Blood Pure, Actually Looks Like

    But in the books there are evidences of the opposite. Aegon stayed one night at Butterwell's castle, on the same night impregnated Butterwell's three daughters, and gave for it dragon egg to him. That Lord Butterwell's grandson, Ambrose Butterwell, was 50 years old in 212 at the time of his wedding at Whitewalls, when took place Second Blackfyre Rebellion. So Ambrose was born in 161 or 162. His hair was flaxen-colored (blond). He owned Targaryen dragon egg, that was given to his grandfather, when his daughters were impregnated by Aegon. Aegon made Ambrose master of coin. And later Daeron II made him his Hand of the King. During First Blackfyre Rebellion he sent one of his sons to fight for Targaryens, and one for Blackfyres. And he wasn't executed by Targaryens, even though he was the host of the Tournament, that was a cover for Second Blackfyre Rebellion. And his name fits with "ae" rule - Ambrose. I'm surprised, that people haven't figured out, that Ambrose Butterweel was Aegon's bastard. Aegon became King in 172, and made Lord Bracken, father of his pregnant mistress, Barba Bracken, the King's Hand. When later that year Brackens were sent away from court, Aegon made Ambrose's grandfather his Hand. In 178 Aegon made Lucas Lothston his new Hand, in exchange for sex with Lucas's wife and daughter. After Lucas' dismissal from court, Aegon's next Hand became Jon Hightower, who brought to Aegon Serenei of Lys. 172 Lord Bracken - Barba - Aegor - King's Hand ... Lord Butterwell - his daughter - Ambrose - King's Hand 178 Lord Lothston - Jeyne - Manfred - King's Hand ... Lord Hightower - Serenei - Shiera - King's Hand Aegon was giving title of his Hand, to whoever was his pimp. And it's unlikely, that he was rewarding those guys for their past services. So, even though Aegon impregnated Butterwell's daughters back in 161 or 162, he made Butterwell King's Hand after 172. Which means, that at that time, while Butterwell was his Hand, Aegon resumed sexual relationship with the mother of his bastard-son Ambrose. Which is an evidence, that Aegon did went back to women, with whom he was before. (And Ambrose was Butterwell, because prior his birth, his grandfather married his mother to her cousin, who was also a Butterwell.) Shiera Seastar was not a Waters, and she also wasn't raised in Braavos, or on a ship. Bellegere's three children were actually not Otheryses, I was just calling them that for convenience. The World Book: "Children by the Black Pearl: Bellenora, Narha, Balerion." No last names given. AFFC, Cat of the Canals: " "The Black Pearl," she told them. Merry claimed the Black Pearl was the most famous courtesan of all. "She's descended from the dragons, that one," the woman had told Cat. "The first Black Pearl was a pirate queen. A Westerosi prince took her for a lover and got a daughter on her, who grew up to be a courtesan. Her own daughter followed her, and her daughter after her, until you get to this one. What did she say to you, Cat?" " No last names given. So it's equally likely, that they were born and raised at King's Landing. And they were not concidered to be the Great Bastards, because mothers of Great Bastards were noble women, and Bellegere wasn't noble. It would have been absurd, to keep Aegon for 10 years away from 7K. Baelor wasn't going to have kids. So to Small Council, including King's Hand Viserys, it was obvious, that sooner or later Aegon is going to become King. Baelor's heir was Viserys, and Aegon was Viserys' first son, and his other son was already a member of Kingsguard at that time. Aegon was future of their dynasty, so there's no way, that they let him stay abroad for 10 years. There's no evidences for Jeyne being Lucas' child. Aegon impregnated Lord Butterwell's three daughters. Lord Butterwell's grandson, Ambrose, was born in 161 or 162 (he was already 50 at the time of Tournament in 212). So his mother and two aunts were impregnated either in 160, or 161, or 162. In 160 and 161 (until death of Daeron I) Aegon was still with Casella. In 161 (after King's Daeron's death) and in 162 Aegon was already with Bellegere. And it is known, that he was still visiting Falena at Harrenhal, at least for two more years after her wedding, in 151-153. Butterweels build Whitewalls on shore of God's Eye, close to Harrenhal. The question is - why did Aegon came to Butterwells castle in 160, or 161, or 162? Most likelly, Ambrose, who in 212 was 50, was born in 162, so he was conceived either in 161 or in early 162. My guess, is that either Aegon in 161 went to Harrenhal to (more than) say goodbye to Falena, but was instead taken off course by Lord Butterweel and lured into his castle. Or Aegon was visiting Falena in 162, after he returned from Brravos, so she prepared for him a wellcome back party, and introduced him to Butterweel's three daughters. Or, which is most likely, that encounter was arranged by Lucas Lothston the Pander, who was doing his job - providing women to Aegon. Back to Jeyne. In 178 she was 14. Either at that time, she was 14 and later that same year was going to turn 15 (which means, that year of her birth was 163), or at that time she already had her birthday in 178 (and thus was born in 164). If she was born in 163, then she could have been conceived in 163, or in 162. And 162 coincides with Aegon's Trinity-party with Butterwell-girls. So, maybe, after Aegon returned from Brravos in 162, he impregnated four women - three Butterwells, and Falena Stokeworth. And maybe Bellegere too. That's not what I meant. Yes, that's the origin of their House. But why did GRRM wrote/made specifically those three people as LF's ancestors (Baelish, Hedge, Sellsword)? If who they were is insignificant, and wouldn't matter for the further plot of the books, then why didn't he made some random little lord or a knight of 7K as LF's great-grandfather, why instead he made him that guy - Sellsword from Braavos in service of Lord Corbray? I think, that's because LF's ancestors are important, and his ancestry will play a crutial role in the further plot. Because he is Aegon's descendant, and he is intending to get Iron Throne for himself, and to become King of 7K.
  3. Megorova

    What Keeping the Blood Pure, Actually Looks Like

    Let's use for short: Petyr's father - Baelish (because he was first Lord Baelish of their clan), grandfather - Hedge (hedge knight), great-grandfather - Sellsword (sellsword from Braavos, that served to Lord Corbray). First of all - who said, that Baelish was the same age as Hoster Tully? On Petyr's page in Wikia, there are two sources of info about his father, [10] and [19], I don't have a World App, but in [19] - "In response to the why was LF fostered at Riverrun when he was a insignificant lord question: GRRM said that Petyr's father and Hoster met up during the War of the Ninepenny Kings and became friends. Apparently that was a time when a lot of people from all over the realm forged friendships. LF's dad later "cashed in" on the friendship to get LF fostered at Riverrun." <- NO INFORMATION ABOUT AGE. In [7] - no info about them being of the same age. Though there was this: No age given. And Hedge was a landless knight. Baelish was first of his clan, who got some land. Sellsword served to Cobrays. "The Corbrays were an Andal house during the Andal invasion. Corwyn Corbray conquered the Fingers by defeating Houses Brightstone and Shell, claiming for himself the title of Lord of the Five Fingers." "The Fingers are narrow peninsulas of the northeastern Vale of Arryn which extend into the narrow sea and the Shivering Sea." House Corbray owned lands of the Fingers. They were a small House with small lands, there was nothing to gain there for Hedge. So he left the Fingers, and became a traveling sellsword for hire. He was knighted either before he left, or some time later during his travels. For simplification, for now, let's take this timescale - Petyr born in 60s, Baelish in 40s, Hedge in 20s, Sellsword in 200s. But it's too inaccurate, too vague. Because it's obvious, that it's not like all of them became fathers when they were 20. Don't know, how to explain this. For example, Petyr was born in 268, if his father was about the same age as Hoster Tully, then Baelish was born between 238 and 240. So Petyr was born, when his father was between 28 and 30 years old. Catelyn was born in 264 or 265. And she was her father's third child. Prior Cat's birth, Hoster's wife gave birth to two sons. If that was not a double pregnancy, then Hoster became a father for the first time approximately in 262 (or even earlier). He inherited Riverrun in or after 264. Which means, that when he got married, he wasn't yet Lord Tully. So if 262 is correct, then Hoster became a father, when he was 22-24 years old (or even younger), but Baelish became a father, when he was 28-30. So a timescale with 20 years per generation is incorrect. As we can see from example of Petyr and his father, 30 years per generation seems more likely. Petyr is already 30 years old, and he still has no children (unless Robert Arryn is his son, in which case LF became a father in 292, when he was 24 years old). Though 30 years per generation could also be incorrect, who knows, maybe, when Baelish was born in 238-240, his father Hedge was barely 15 years old, same thing with Sellsword. So a timescale, that includes all possibilities, should be with 15-35 years per generation of those characters whose year of birth is unknown. Thus, it goes like this: Petyr 268 Baelish 238-240 (or not, he could be older or younger than Hoster Tully) Hedge 203-225 (238 - 35 and 238 - 15, 240 - 35 and 240-15) Sellsword 168-210 (203 - 35 and 225 - 15). If the Bastard of Harrenhal was son of Jeyne Lothston, then he was born in 178 or 179, and that's in timeframe of possible years of Sellsword's birth (168-210). If Sellsword is Bastard's son, then he could have been born in Westeros, even prior First Blackfyre Rebellion, or if he was born in Braavos, then his parents could have met there years after the Rebellion, as far as in 210, and grandson could have been born as far as in 225. So, no to this Hedge could have been born later than in 219, as late as 225. So, it's even possible, that Bastard went to Braavos some time prior Second Rebellion (212 AC), and maybe he was somehow involved in it. Maybe he was even at Whitewalls, when Daemon II was there, either he was one of knights, present on that wedding, or he was beyond the walls, with troops of Danelle Lothston. And his grandson Hedge could have also been there, as a young squire, if he was born closer to 203 than to 225. Maybe Egg even met him there. This is another (very approximate) scale of several generations from different Houses, in relation to LF's family tree: 1 Rhaenyra Targaryen + Daemon Targaryen = Aegon III, Viserys II Sealord of Braavos + wife = Sealord's son Lysandro Rogare + Johanna Swann the Black Swan of Lys = Larra Rogare 2 Viserys II Targaryen + Larra Rogare = Aegon IV, Aemon, Naerys Sealord's son + Princess of Summer Islands = Bellegere Otherys 3 Lucas Lothston + Falena Stokeworth - no children Falena Stokeworth + Aegon = Jeyne Lothston Naerys + Aegon = Daeron II Targaryen, Daenerys (wife of Maron Martell) Daena Targaryen + Aegon = Daemon I Blackfyre 4 Daeron II Targaryen + Mariah Martell = Maekar I Bellegere Otherys + Aegon = Bellenora, Narha, Balerion Jeyne Lothston + Aegon = the Bastard of Harrenhal 5 [Otheryses + spouses = children (one of them is Sellsword's mother)] Maekar + Dyanna Dayne = Aegon V The Bastard of Harrenhal + wife = First Lord Whent The Bastard of Harrenhal + Otherys-girl (either Bellegere's daughter or granddaughter) = Sellsword 6 Aegon V + Betha Blackwood = Jaehaerys II and Shaera, Duncan Targaryen First Lord Whent (Shella's grandfather) + wife = three sons (fathers of Shella, Walter and Oswell, Minisa) Sellsword + wife = Hedge 7 Jaehaerys + Shaera = Aerys II and Rhaella Second Lord Whent + wife = Shella Two brothers of Second Lord Whent + spouses = Walter and Oswell, Minisa Hedge + wife = Baelish 8 Aerys + Rhaella = Rhaegar, Viserys, Daenerys Shella + Walter = (Sarya), four sons, Wynafrei Hoster Tully + Minisa Whent = Catelyn, Lysa, Edmure Baelish + Alayne = Petyr 9 Petyr + Lysa (Whent) Tully-Arryn-Baelish = Robert "Arryn"
  4. Megorova

    What Keeping the Blood Pure, Actually Looks Like

    No statement with the words "could have been" is a fact. Simply by the way English works.  I meant, that a fact, is that Ramsay Bolton was a bastard. And English is my fourth language, and I'm still in the process of learning it, so it's likely, that in some cases I'm using incorrect phrasing. Whether Gwayne died then, or whether he survived, people, that witnessed that battle, told to others about what happened. So eventually members of House Corbray also heard that story. Good intentions and mercy are still worth something, even if in the end Daemon didn't saved Gwayne's life. But it's not like those Corbrays gave away their castle to the Sellsword, as a Thank-you present, they just hired him to work in their household, and that's a small favour to Blackfyres for what Daemon did, or tried to do. He was blinded in that battle (196). Between then and tournament at Ashford (209) 13 years passed. We don't know how old was he in 196. Maybe by 209 he had already died from old age, or an illness, or an accident. Or maybe he was still alive, but because he remained blind, he was not efficient as a Kingsguard, so he was nearly always staying at the White Sword Tower, not to be in the way. Also at Ashford he was not the only Kingsguard that wasn't there. There was Roland Crakehall, Donnel of Duskendale, and Willem Wylde. Besides Gwayne, three more Kingsguards were not at that tournament. Which is not surprising, because someone had to stay behind and guard Daeron, because he is the King and they are Kingsguards. So three of them went to Ashford, and four (including Gwayne, if he was still alive) remained with the King. So what? Other Blackfyres were also not present there. So did Rohanne and Bittersteel. I'm not saying, that Corbrays became pro-Blackfyre just because of what Daemon did, or tried to do, all I'm saying, is that they were slightly indebted to Blackfyres because of what happened in 196. It was war. Nothing personal. Daemon could have not only wounded Gwayne, and crippled and maimed him, he could have also killed him, while Gwayne was blind and couldn't fight anymore. But Daemon not only didn't killed him, on the contrary, he helped him. So yes, I think, that if Gwayne survived that war, he was thankful to Daemon not recentful. Unless, what Blackfyres asked, was just a small favor, that wasn't dishonorable, or in any way harmful to Targaryens or Corbrays. Maybe, whoever asked Corbrays for that favor, didn't even revealed to them, that the guy, that they are asking Corbrays to hire into their household, is bloodrelated to Blackfyres. So Corbrays didn't saw anything incriminating in hiring him. There are several options of what could have happened. Including - Sellsword went to Westeros, came to Gwayne Corbray, reminded to him how Daemon aided him, and asked for a return favor (and did revealed to Gwayne his identity, or didn't). Maybe he brought with him a "recommendation letter" from Blackfyres, with a request to provide a job for this guy, as a payback for Daemon's help. Or maybe it was Gwayne himself, or one of his relatives, who felt indebted to Blackfyres, and thus went to Essos to find them, and offered them to ask for what they need (if that is not something illegal, or dishonorable, or bad for Targaryens). There's another option. Pbobably this one is my favourite. The thing is, there's no maesters in Essos, so in Essos they don't use raven-mail. And because news about death of someone's relative is not the kind of information, that is passed on by strangers, especially if that someone is also your own relative, then, probably, when Daemon II died, King Maekar sent a messenger to Rohanne, to inform her about death of her son. And that messenger was Gwayne Corbray. Targaryens were anticipating, that Blackfyres won't kill blind messenger, even if he will bring them news about death, especially because they have already spared him once before. Then, based on the time of Sellsword's birth, either he was already grown-up (in 219 approximately 22-23 years old, if he was born in 196 or 197, after the Rebellion, or, if he was born earlier than 196, then in 219 he was older than 23) and living with his mother (or separately) in Braavos, or, when Gwayne brough to Essos news about Daemon II's death, he was accompanied there by Manfred (who at that time was 40-41 years old), and that's when Manfred met Otherys-girl (in this case - granddaughter of Bellegere Otherys), that later gave birth to Manfred's son (Sellsword). So the Sellsword could have been born anywhere between 194 and 220. The main reason, why I got an idea, that LF's great-grandfather, who was a sellsword from Braavos, and was serving to Lord Corbray, could be bloodrelated to Targaryens/Blackfyres/Aegon's other bastards, is because of Lord Corbray. Why did that Sellsword out of all Houses of 7K went to work specifically for Corbrays, or was hired by Corbrays? I was reading thru history of their House, to figure out, why them?, and the most significant thing about them, is what happened in 196 between Kingsguard Gwayne Corbray and Daemon Blackfyre. This is resume of their history in Targaryen Era: "During the reign of King Aegon I Targaryen, Ser Gawen Corbray was chosen by Queen Visenya Targaryen as master-at-arms for her son, Prince Maegor, on Dragonstone. On account of his reputation as being one of the deadliest knights in the Seven Kingdoms in his day.[5] Ser Corwyn Corbray was named a regent in 134 AC, during the regency of the young king, Aegon III Targaryen. He was killed by a crossbowman at Runestone that same year[6] when confronting Lord Royce, who supported Ser Arnold Arryn instead of Lady Jeyne's chosen heir, Ser Joffrey Arryn. The Corbrays subsequently supported Ser Joffrey's claim in the war of succession in the Vale. During the First Blackfyre Rebellion, Ser Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard was part of the loyalist forces that fought Daemon Blackfyre at the battle of the Redgrass Field. They dueled for nearly an hour, their Valyrian steel swords Blackfyre and Lady Forlorn clashing loudly. At last, Blackfyre struck Gwayne's helm and left him blind and bleeding. Daemon dismounted to tend to his foe and ordered Redtusk to carry Gwayne back to the maesters for healing, an action that afterwards some considered decisive, since it gave the Raven's Teeth enough time to find a good position to fire the arrows that killed Daemon.[7] Petyr Baelish's great-grandfather was born in Braavos, and came to the Vale as a sellsword hired by Lord Corbray.[8]" Gawen Corbray was Maegor's master-at-arms. Corwyn was Aegon's regent for less than a year. And the most detailed and significant information about their House is info about Gwayne's duel on the Redgrass Field. Around that same time I was reading thru history of Harrenhal, and then those two timelines clicked/matched. 1. LF - 2. LF's father - 3. LF's grandfather - 4. Sellsword - 5. the Bastard of Harrenhal 1. Cat, Lysa, Edmure - 2. Hoster, Minisa, Shella, Walter - 3. Shella's father - 4. Shella's grandfather/first Lord Whent of Harenhal - 5. the Bastard of Harrenhal (I'm not being impolite, it's just really funny) You are totally misinterpreting their relationship, and the balance of power between them. Aegon took Falena's virginity, and afterwards Lucas was married to her, to clean up Aegon's mess. A man with dignity, wouldn't have agreed to something like that. When newlyweds were sent away to Harrenhal, Aegon went after them, and continued to frequently visit Falena in Lucas' house, whenever he wanted to have sex with her. Lucas was pimping out his own wife. First his wife, and then also his supposed daughter. That's why he was called the Pander. Synonyms for pander - pimp, cater, accomplice, ally, encourager. Lucas became master-at-arms at the Red Keep in 136. At that time he was at least 16 years old, or, which is more likely - in his 20s or even 30s. So he was born approximately in 106-120. Thus, in 151, when he married with Falena, he was 31-45, while Falena was close to Aegon's age. At the time of Jeyne's birth, in 163 or 164, Lucas was 44-57, while Aegon was 28-29. In 178, when Lucas brought Falena and Jeyne to court, he was 58-72, and Aegon was 42-43. I highly doubt, that in 27+ years of their marriage, Lucas ever had sex with his wife. He never touched her. She was Aegon's woman, and Lucas was just another "Ossifer Plumm". So Lucas, blackmailing Aegon, is close to impossible. Baelor sent Aegon to Braavos in 161, to prevent him from having sex with Naerys, at least until she will recover from her latest childbirth, and death of those children. Aegon wasn't staying in Braavos for a long time. He returned home, either still in 161, or in 162 (which is more likely, because it seems, that Baelor had sent Aegon away in late 161, so he probably have returned to Westeros in 162). And went to visit Falena, either after his return, or later, or maybe it was Falena who visited Aegon at court. Distance between Braavos and Harrenhal is approximately 1200 miles (1042 nauticl miles). He could have sailed past King's Landing, up Blackwater Rush river to God's Eye lake, on shore of which is located Harrenhal. Speed of medieval ship is 5 knots, or ~5 miles per hour. Thus, it takes ~10 days to travel from Braavos to Harrenhal, and even less from Braavos to KL. Also Baelor and Viserys were not watching Falena after she was married to Lucas. As a married woman, she stopped being their problem. If she got pregnant, it was her husband's problem, not theirs. Based on the same reasoning, Aegon married Elaena to Ossifer Plumm. Exactly. Which proves, that by that time he was already back. If Aegon wasn't back at Westeros, at the time when Falena became pregnant, then there would have been no rumors, about him being the father of her child. I'm not saying, that it's a fact, just that it's a possibility. Though, in my opinion, it is much higher than 0.01%. I'm saying the opposite - that he WAS born in 178, or maybe in 179. And that has nothing to do with Lucas being 58-73 year old at that time, because he wasn't Manfred's real father. Same as Ossifer Plumm wasn't Viserys Plumm's real father. Manfred didn't inherited Harrenhal from Lucas, instead, other Lothstons got it - Lucas' relatives. By the time of Blackfyre Rebellion, if Lucas was still alive, he would have been ~ 76-90 years old, or even older. But I think that in 196 he was already dead. Do you really don't see, where's the problem here? Lucas died prior 196, and he had no legitimate children at the time of his death, so Harrenhal passed to Lucas' relatives. Probably to Lucas' significally younger brother or sister, or to his nephew or niece (if Lucas' brothers/sisters were also already dead), or even to his grand-nephew/grand-niece. So that other Lothston inherited Harrenhal and the title, and became Second Lord/Lady Lothston of Harrenhal. And, based on timeframe of Second Rebellion, Danelle Lothston was daughter or granddaughter of that heir, and Third or Fourth Lothston-ruler of Harrenhal. By the time when Manfred was legitimized in 196, Harrenhal was already owned by other Lothston, and Manfred's legalization, even though it changed his lastname, was not enough to challenge ownership of the castle and title. Probably he thought, that when he will be legalized, and will become a Lothston, then, as a sole child of Lord Lucas, he will have rights to claim Harrenhal. But those other real Lothstons argued, that he has no rights. Could be, that afterwards Manfred went to King Daeron, and tried to "sue" owner of Harrenhal. But either there was a trial (maybe trial by battle), and he failed, or Daeron said to him, that their agreement was to legitimize Manfred as a Lothston, not to make him Lord Lothston or to take Harrenhal away from its current owners and give it to Manfred. So after legal system had failed Manfred, he and his descendants (knights Whents) took over Harrenhal from Lothstons by machinations. Though besides Whents, Manfred also had a child with Black Pearl of Braavos. But that son was not with Manfred, and wasn't Whent, and didn't got Harrenhal. That's why Littlefinger was obsessed with Tully-girls. Because he and them had the same great great-grandfather, but after that those family lines separated, and Whents received Harrenhal, and later one of their descendants even got Riverrun (Edmure Tully, son of Minisa Whent), while LF's line got nothing. Manfred was born in 178 or 179. So by 233 he was 54-55. Or if the fall of House Lothston was caused by House Whent earlier than in 233, then at that time Manfred was younger then 54. Even in 233 he could have played a role of mastermind, while the ground work was done by his children. Danelle Lothston was not a witch. It was Manfred and his family, and his people, who were spreading those horrible rumors about Danelle. Just think about it - if she was a monster and a bad person, then why did she supported Bloodraven at Whitewalls? She could have pretended to be ill - what Lord Swann did. I'll continue later 3) and so on, in a different post. P.S. Can't now check spelling, so sorry for mistakes.
  5. Megorova

    What Keeping the Blood Pure, Actually Looks Like

    You wrote before something like Aegon couldn't have impregnated Falena, because at that time he was already in relationship with Bellegere Otherys. I went thru timeline of Aegon's mistresses and children, and found there evidences, that he could have done that. 1. Aegon met Bellegere in 161, their relationship lasted for 10 years, which means, that they were still together by the time of their 10th Anniversary. If they met on 1st January of 161, then they have separated not earlier than 1st January of 171, and if they met later in 161, it also means, that they have separated later in 171, and Daena Targaryen gave birth to Aegon's son, Daemon Blackfyre, in 170, while he was still in relationship with Bellegere. 2. In 176 Aegon impregnated Elaena Targaryen, while he was still in relationship with Melissa Blackwood. He separated with Melissa in 177, after he met Bethany Bracket. (3.) In 172 Barba Bracken gave birth to Aegon's son, Aegor Bittersteel Rivers. Two weeks later Aegon's wife gave birth to Daenerys and stillborn son. If both pregnancies were full-termed, then it means, that Aegon impregnated his wife two weeks after impregnating his mistress. Those are facts. Even though in 170 Aegon's official mistress was Bellegere, and in 176 Melissa, at that time he was still having sex with other women, and even had children with them. In 178 Jeyne Lothston was 14 years old. So she was born either in 163 or 164, and was conceived sometime in 162-164. At that time Bellegere was Aegon's mistress, but, as it's evident from those two examples from above, Aegon was cheating not only his wife, but also his mistresses. Though I realised, that you were also right - there really was no need for the Bastard of Harrenhal to go to Braavos, to meet there with children of Bellegere Otherys. That's because they were at King's Landing, not in Braavos. If someone wants to eat a cake, he doesn't go to live in the bakery to do it, instead he goes to bakery, buys there that cake, and brings it back, to eat it at home. So, even though Aegon has met Bellegere in Braavos, it doesn't mean, that in the span of their 10-years-long relationship, they both were living in Braavos, and he occasionally made visits to Westeros, to have there sex with other women. Instead, after he met Bellegere, he took her with him to King's Landing, when he returned there from his mission to Braavos. And that mission didn't lasted for a long time. So, most likely, all three of Bellegere's children were born in King's Landing, and thus, they could have stayed there, even after their mother returned to Braavos after 171. Or, because one of Bellegere's daughters, Bellenora, later became first Black Pearl of Braavos, it's possible, that either 1) Bellegere gave birth to Bellenora already after she broke up with Aegon and returned to Braavos; or 2) Bellegere gave birth to all three of their children in KL, and left them there, when she returned to Braavos, but later at least Bellenora also went to live in Braavos. Now, based on who was the mother of the Sellsword from Braavos (Littlefinger's great-grandfather), there's also several options of when and where she met the Bastard of Harrenhal, Manfred "Lothston", future father of her son. His mother could have been: 1. Bellenora, 2. Narha, 3. Bellenora's daughter, 4. Narha's daughter, 5. Balerion's daughter, 6. daughter of Balerion and Narha, 7. daughter of Balerion and Bellenora. In my opinion, the most likely option, is that out of Bellegere's children, Bellenora was the youngest, and she had the least age difference with the Bastard of Harrenhal. For example, if she was born in 171 or 172, and he was born in 178 or 179, then she was only 6-8 years older than him. Thus, it's possible, that they had a child together, even though she was older. Probably they have met in Westeros. Most likely, because at the time, when Aegon impregnated Falena (in 162-163-164), Bellegere was already his mistress, so she knew, that Jeyne Lothston was Aegon's daughter. So it's likely, that Jeyne and her half-siblings, Bellegere's three children, knew about each other, and, maybe, even were staying in touch. So Jeyne's son have met Otheryses thru his mother. And that's how, when and where (in Westeros) he hooked up either with one of Bellegere's daughters, or with her granddaughter (that's if three Otheryses were significally older than Manfred). Then, for some reason, after Manfred impregnated that girl, she left Westeros and went to Braavos, so their son was born there, and later became a sellsword. Eventually he went to Westeros, and went into service of Lord Corbray, and he got that post thru his mother's connections with her Blackfyre relatives, and Corbrays took him in, because they were indebted to Blackfyres. And the reason, why the Sellsword's mother left Westeros, could have something to do with First Blackfyre Rebellion. For example, she was Blackfyre-supporter, and Manfred was either also pro-Blackfyre, or he just pretended, that he is supporting Daemon Blackfyre. Then the Rebellion happened, and Manfred betrayed Daemon. So after Daemon's wife and children left Westeros and went to Tyrosh, Manfred's pregnant girlfriend also went with them, but because she had relatives in Braavos (she was descendant of the Sealord of Braavos), she went not to Tyrosh but to Braavos. In 196, in span of that Rebellion, Manfred was 17 or 18 years old, so it's likely, that by that time he already had a girlfriend (whom he impregnated). Or maybe they were even married, and their son (future Sellsword) was already born by 196, so when she went to Braavos, she took their son with her. Maybe, besides that one son, Manfred and his woman had other older child/children, but she took to Braavos only one (maybe because he took away their other children, when he was preparing to betray Daemon. But he didn't knew, that she was pregnant again. So after his betrayal she managed to escape, and one of their children was "with her"). If with that woman Manfred had other children, then one of those children later became first Lord Whent of Harrenhal, and was Shella Whent's grandfather. Or maybe it was Manfred's daughter, who married with knight Whent, that later became first Lord Whent of Harrenhal, which means, that Manfred's daughter was Shella Whent's grandmother. Or, after Manfred's woman (Otherys) escaped with their child, he married with someone else, and it was their children or grandchildren, that became Whents of Harrenhal. Eitherway, the Bastard of Harrenhal was Shella Whent's great-grandfather, and Littlefinger's great great-grandfather. Something like that. For some reason GRRM has revealed to readers LF's ancestors way back to that sellsword. Add this to LF becoming Lord of Harrenhal, and his obsession with the Tully girls (that are half-Whents). Then all this forms into a possibility, that Littlefinger is a descendant of both the Black Pearl of Braavos and the Bastard of Harrenhal (who somehow was ancestor of Harrenhal's Whents).
  6. Megorova

    What Keeping the Blood Pure, Actually Looks Like

    Ramsay Bolton prior ASOS was Ramsay Snow, and he was legitimized by King Joffrey. Similar thing could have happened during First Blackfyre Rebellion. For example, the Bastard of Harrenhal pretended (same as Roose Bolton and Ramsay Snow), that he is supporting rebells Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel against King Daeron (how Boltons pretended to support Robb Stark against King Joffrey Baratheon and Lannisters). Then, prior the Battle at the Redgrass Field, he went to the King, and made with him an agreement - Daeron legitimized him, and from Manfred Rivers made him Manfred Lothston. Thus, some time later, when Manfred was intentionally late with bringing Daemon's reinforcements to the battlefield, by that time he was already a Lothston. So the history remembered him as Lothston. Manfred Lothston could have been a bastard, same as Ramsay Bolton WAS a bastard. Are you intentionally ignoring this FACT? Probably, I phrased incorrectly, what I wrote before. Daemon Blackfyre helped Gwayne Corbray, and because he was distracted, while he was taking care of wounded and blinded Gwayne, and ordered to bring a van, and to take Gwayne away from battlefield, Bloodraven's archers "snicked up" on Daemon and killed him. So Corbrays were indebted to Daemon, because Daemon saved Corbray (he was given medical help on Daemon's order, and was safely retrieved from battlefield). Daemon was killed, and Gwayne survived thanks to Daemon. There's also a lot of other things and events, that were not mentioned in the World Book, which doesn't mean, that they didn't happened. Sorry. But it was the first bastard, that was a product of incest between father and daughter. Even for Targaryens that was overboard. So Aegon had to keep this in secret, otherwise it could have caused a rebellion. Because once before there was already an anti-Targaryen rebellion, caused by marriage between Targaryen brother and sister. So what would have done people of 7K, when they found out about Aegon impregnating his own daughter? He's not some insignificant wildling like Craster, he's the King of Seven Kingdoms. He was reckless, but he wasn't stupid. There was a limit even to his antics. Yes, he had sex with his daughter, and yes, he impregnated her, though he wasn't going to make it known to general public, he kept it as his dirty little secret. And he neved acknowledged, as his child, not only Manfred, but also Jeyne, in case if someone at Harrenhal, besides Jeyne, Falena and Lucas, knew, that Manfred was actually Jeyne's child and not Lucas'. For example, if Aegon admitted, that Manfred was his son, then people would have realised, that Aegon was hiding it before, because of those rumors, that Jeyne was his daughter, and if he was hiding before, that Manfred is his son, while he wasn't hiding his other bastards, then the reason for him to hide this child, is because this child is not only his son, but also his grandson, because Jeyne really is his daughter. Or a different possibility - if Aegon admitted, that Jeyne was his daughter, then, even if people didn't knew, that Manfred was Jeyne's child, and thus, possibly was Aegon's son, people would have still rebelled, because people knew, that Jeyne used to be Aegon's mistress. Thus, admitting, that Jeyne is his daughter, is not an option. Same as admitting, that Manfred is his son. Because even acknowledging one of those childen, would have caused people to realise the whole truth. Isn't this possible? Maybe. At the time I was writting that post, the Wikia was malfunctioning, so I couldn't check who was who in that rebellion. I mistaken him with Eustas Osgrey, he was the one who fought for Blackfyres. Not necessary. The source of info, about Arlan defeating Lord Stokeworth and the Bastard of Harrenhal, was Arlan himself. Could be, that he didn't even knew, what was the name of that Bastard. And the source of info, that Manfred Lothston was late on battlefield, was some guy in one of ASOIAF books. It's likely, that Arlan didn't knew, that Manfred Lothson was the same guy, that he defeated three years ago at the melee at KL. Who is Arlan? -> Just some hedge knight. So nobody was informing him about tactical movements on battlefield. He had no idea who was supposed to arrive, from where, what for, with what reinforcements, etc. He was just fighting, and doing what he was ordered. He was just some small fry. And he never met Manfred Lothston face to face. When the two of them met before, it was a brief encounter, three years ago, and the Bastard of Harrenhal at that time, most likely, was wearing a helm, because they were fighting in a melee. Furthermore, three years passed, so his face changed, and even if he was still recognizable, it's unlikely, that Arlan still remembered how the Bastard looked like. Thus, there's no inconsistence in one source stating, that Arlan defeated the Bastard of Harrenhal, and the other source mentioning Manfred Lothson, and neither of those sources saying, that later the Bastard was legitimized and became a Lothston, or that before Manfred was a Lothston, he used to be a Rivers. At that time Lothstons were Lords of Harrenhal, so any bastards of Harrenhal, that were born in that time period, were Lothston-bastards. That's OBVIOUS, and doesn't even require any explanations. Edit: It wasn't stated anywhere, that Manfred Lothston, who was son of Lucas Lothston, was also son of Lucas' wife Falena Lothston. And there's no mentioning, that Lucas ever remarried, or had a different wife, besides Falena. So, if Manfred Lothston is son of Lucas Lothston, but not son of Falena Stokeworth-Lothston, then it means, that Manfred is Lucas' legitimized ex-bastard. And, when it was said in the World Book, that Falena brought Jeyne to court, and Lucas was made King's Hand, it wasn't mentioned, that Lucas' son Manfred was also there with them. That's because at that time Manfred wasn't even born yet. I'm not trolling you. I'm serious. It's a theory. And a theory later could be revealed to be either correct, or incorrect. It's not a fanfiction. Though, maybe, you and me have different definition for a word "fanfiction". In your opinion - "Jon Snow is son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark" is a fanfiction? In my opinion, it is not a fanfiction, it's a theory, and there are clues in the books, on which this theory is build. Same with my theory, that Littlefinger is a dragonseed (descendant of the Bastard of Harrenhal, and thru him bloodrelated to House Whent and Catelyn Tully, and thru his great-grandfather bloodrelated to Black Pearls of Braavos), I build this theory on clues from the books. This theory later could be revealed to be correct, or incorrect, but it's not a fanfiction. At least, not by my definition.
  7. Megorova

    What Keeping the Blood Pure, Actually Looks Like

    If you'll keep in mind, that the Bastard of Harrenhal, who was presented to general public as son of Lucas Lothston, and betrayed Blackfyres during First Rebellion, was actually Aegon's bastard, then there is a connection, and here it is: - Son of Lucas Lothston first pretended to support Daemon I Blackfyre, but then betrayed him; So Lothstons are connected to Blackfyres. - Lothstons were Lords of Harrenhal, so the Bastard of Harrenhal in 193 was definitely a Lothston-bastard, same as Jon, the Bastard of Winterfell, is the bastard of a Stark (at least, that's what general public was made to believe); - Lothstons' sigil is a bat, Whents' sigil is also a bat/s; - Whents originally were knights in service of House Lothston. In 193 the Bastard of Harrenhal participated in the melee at KL, if that melee was for knights, and it seems, that it was, because Arlan was a knight, thus the Bastard was also a knight, which means, that he could be one of those Whent-knights, that later served to House Lothston; - LF's great-grandfather, the Sellsword from Braavos in Westeros was serving to Lord Corbray. House Corbray was indebted to Blackfyres, because Daemon I spared Kingsguard Gwayne Corbray on battlefield, and died because of his kindness. So it's possible, that Corbrays were asked by someone (Blackfyre-related from Essos) to take this Sellsword from Braavos (who was bloodrelated to Blackfyres) into their service; - Manfred betrayed Daemon, so there's no reason for Blackfyres to ask Corbrayes to help to Manfred's son. But the thing is, it seems, that Manfred betrayed not only Daemon, but also his "girlfriend" in Braavos, left her with their child, and returned to Westeros to destroy House Lothston, and to become Lord of Harrenhal. So Manfred's son from Braavos was not amongst his fans, same as his betrayed Blackfyre-relatives. Thus, the one who asked Blackfyres for a favour, was Black Pearl of Braavos, that was that Sellsword's mother (or aunt, or grandmother, or sister), and was bloodrelated to Blackfyres (second Black Pearl of Braavos, her brother and sister were Daemon Blackfyres' half-siblings, so their children and Daemon's children were first cousins); - And, because betrayal was in his blood, his descendants were also traitors. For example, Blackfyres used Corbray's debt to help Manfred's son, but later this guy's grandson betrayed Blackfyres, and fought against them in the War of the Ninepenny Kings (Fifth Rebellion of Blackfyres). And Littlefinger also betrayed Blackfyres. Varys is bloodrelated to Blackfyres. It seems, that he knew about LF's ancestry, and that's why he recruited LF, as one of his agents, many years ago. LF known so much about Varys and his plans, because LF used to be one of his Little Birds, and his personal sigil, mockingbird, is a hint about it.
  8. Megorova

    What Keeping the Blood Pure, Actually Looks Like

    First of all, she was born in 164, not in 162. Second - source about rumors, that she was Aegon's daughter, is the World book, people of 7K suspected it, so they had reasons for it. If Aegon was nowhere near Falena, when she became pregnant, then there would have been no rumors like that. In 161 Aegon was sent as an envoy to Braavos, where he met Bellegere Otherys, and had an affair with her for 10 years. Though it doesn't mean, that in span of those 10 years he was staying in Braavos. If people of 7K thought, that Aegon could have impregnated Falena in 164 or 163, then he was back at 7K at that time, or it was Falena who visited him in Braavos. What GRRM said about Ashara Dayne - that during Robert's Rebellion she wasn't nailed to the floor of Starfall, which means, that she could have left Starfall, and could have went anywhere. Same thing with Aegon and Falena. So Jeyne could be their daughter. It was Jeyne's mother, who brought her to court. "Jeyne was brought to court by her mother, Falena Stokeworth, in 178 AC, when she was fourteen. King Aegon the Unworthy made Lord Lucas Lothston of Harrenhal his new Hand, and it was said (but never proved) that he enjoyed mother and daughter together in the same bed. Aegon soon gave Jeyne a pox he had caught from the whores he had seen after Lady Bethany Bracken's execution, and the Lothstons were then all sent from court.[1]" You are so so naive. There were rumors, that Aegon gave Jeyne a pox, and the same source of rumors was saying, that Aegon had sex with both of those women, with mother and with daughter. But according to those same rumors, only Jeyne got "something" from Aegon. If he had sex with both of them, then how come he infected only one of them? Also, just think about it logically - if Falena wasn't infected, unlike Jeyne, then why did Aegon sent ALL OF THEM back to Harrenhal? It's not like he stoped having sex after that, not to infect more people. Thus, what was the point of sending away Falena, who was not infected, so he could have continued to XXXX her? Jeyne got pregnant, and when they realised it, Aegon sent all of them away, for Jeyne to gave birth to her child in secret, for Falene to take care of both of them (Jeyne and the baby), and for Lucas to bring that baby to Harrenhal and to claim, that the baby is his bastard. Most likely, even at Harrenhal people didn't knew, that the mother of that baby was Jeyne, not Lucas' nonexistent mistress. So, Manfred of the Black Hood, the one who was the Bastard of Harrenhal, and betrayed his half-brother Daemon I Blackfyre during First Rebellion of Blackfyres, was actually son of Jeyne Lothston. "In 193 AC, Ser Arlan unhorsed Lord Stokeworth and the Bastard of Harrenhal in a melee at King's Landing." Jeyne got pregnant in 178, so her son was born either in that same year or in 179, so in 193 he was 14 or 15 years old. At the time of that melee he was just a teen/very young, while Lord Stokeworth, who was also at the same event defeated by Ser Arlan, was an old man. So both were easy targets for Arlan, who at that time was in his prime (six years later he even defeated Baelor Breakspear). That Lord Stokeworth was relative of Falena Stokeworth, and Falena was Bastard's maternal grandmother. So when Bastard's old uncle was unhorsed by Ser Arlan, Bastard wanted to avenge him, and went after Arlan, but was also unhorsed by him. During First Blackfyre Rebellion ser Arlan fought on the side of Blackfyres. So mentioning the Bastard of Harrenhal together with Lord Stokeworth in Arlan's bio is a clue from GRRM, that both of those guys are connected to Blackfyres, same as Arlan. This is actually simple. There was only one Lucas and one Mafred. The guy in AFFC called him "Manfryd o' the Black Hood" because he was an uneducated smallfolk, and they have funny accents, so instead of Manfred he said Manfryd. Manfred was Manfred Rivers, at the time when he was the Bastard of Harrenhal. He was planning to support Blackfyres in their Rebellion, because he was the same as Daemon Blackfyre and Aegon Rivers - Aegon's bastard, but he betrayed them, and for that was legitimized by King Daeron, and from Manfred Rivers became Manfred Lothston, like Ramsay Snow became Ramsay Bolton. During First Blackfyre Rebellion he was 17 or 18 years old. At that age he became Lothston. Though, even though he was legitimized, someone else got Harrenhal, one of Lucas' real children, and Danelle Lothston was daughter of that someone. So Manfred Lothston was left with nothing, which caused him to orchestrate downfall of House Lothston, and Harrenhal was "inherited" by Whents. Either Manfred himself was this first Lord Whent of Harrenhal (because later in his life he took a different lastname), or first Lord Whent was husband of Manfred's daughter. Or something like that. Aegor and Brynden continued to be Rivers even after legitimization, and Daemon continued to be Blackfyre, while Shiera continued to be Seastar. None of them became Targaryens. Also in the World Book it was said, that even though Aegon legitimized his bastards, for many of them it changed absolutely nothing. Those of Aegon's children, that were not acknowledged by him, while he was alive, after his death got nothing. Aegon never acknowledged Jeyne Lothston as his daughter, same with the Bastard of Harrenhal. Officially that guy was son of Lucas Lothston, and they were not stupid to reveal the truth to general public. If the rumors were true, then Manfred was a product of incest between father and daughter, and even for Targaryens that was overboard. So how would have people of 7K reacted to revelation about Manfred's real origin? Manfred and Jeyne were not acknowledged by Aegon, same as his three children from Bellegere Otherys. About them it was said - Bellegere gave birth to three children during the decade, two girls and a boy of doubtful paternity; it was said that Bellegere had a husband in every port and that Aegon was one of many <- was that really truth, or was it Aegon, who was spreading those rumors about his woman, same as he was making up stories about Naerys' unfaithfulness, and Daeron's bastardy. So, based on "ae-rule", at least Balerion Otherys was Aegon's child. So Manfred went to Braavos to meet with Aegon's unacknowledged children, that, same as Manfred, got deprived by their Targaryen-relatives. Bellegere's children are considerably older than Manfred, they were born in 161-170, so they were 8-17 years older than him. It's more likely, that even though Aegon's affair with Bellegere lasted for 10 years, she gave birth to his children in the beginning of their affair, not near the end of it, so they were 15-17 years older than Manfred. He came to Braavos some time later after Rebellion of 196, so at that time Bellegere's children were in their 30s, so they already had their own children. And that's with whom Manfred fathered a child, that later became a sellsword in Braavos - with granddaughter of Bellegere Otherys, daughter of Bellenora or Narha, or, most likely, Balerion's. Aegon IV (Valyrian with a Targaryen father and Lyseni mother) + Bellegere Otherys (her mother was Princess of Summer Isles, but her father was a Sealord (probably white), so Bellegere was a mix, not pure Summerislander). Aegon (VAL/VAL) + Bellegere SI/White or Not-white SEAlord = Bellenora, Narha, Balerion (1/4SI 1/4SEA 2/4VAL). Bellenora, Narha, Balerion + Uncknown partner (even if this person/people are 100% Summerislanders, then their children will be 5/8SI 2/8VAL 1/8SEA). Manfred (8/8VAL) + Bellegere's granddaughter (5/8SI 2/8VAL 1/8SEA) = Sellsword, LF's great-grandfather (10/16VAL 5/16SI 1/16SEA). Sellsword (10/16VAL 5/16SI 1/16SEA) + Wife from Westeros (16/16FMA - mix of First Men and Andals, I'm not adding here Rhoynars, because LF's ancestors were living in Westeros only in The Vale, not anywhere near Dorne) = Grandfather Hedge knight (16/32FMA 10/32VAL 5/32SI 1/32SEA). Grandfather (16/32FMA 10/32VAL 5/32SI 1/32SEA) + Wife from Westeros (32/32FMA) = LF's father (48/64FMA 10/64VAL 5/64SI 1/64SEA). Father + Wife (64/64FMA) = 112/128FMA 10/128VAL 5/128SI 1/128SEA. So Littlefinger has only 3,9% of Summerislander genes, 7,8% Valyrian genes, 0,78% from his Sealord ancestor (grandfather of Bellegere Otherys), and the rest 87,52% is blood of First Men and Andals. That's not exactly how genetic works, but still, in LF's family three generations of women were from Westeros, so he is mostly First Men/Andal, same as majority of inhabitants of The Vale. He is white. Which doesn't mean, that he can't have a few Summerislanders or white/not-white Sealords as his distant ancestors. Have you read GRRM's other stories? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_of_Cross_and_Dragon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuf_Voyaging#"Call_Him_Moses" He does use Bible as his source.
  9. Megorova

    What Keeping the Blood Pure, Actually Looks Like

    There's only one - Wynafrei Whent, wife of Danwell Frey, eight son of Walder Frey, from Walder's third marriage. There was one more Whent, Walder's fifth wife, Sarya Whent, but she's dead, and had no children. And Wynafrei also has no children, only many stillbirths and miscarriages. Her husband is between 39-48 years old. It's unlikely, that they will ever have children. So for now Shella is the only Whent-Whent, not some distant Whent married into some other House. The clues are out there in the books. So it is possible, both things - that the Bastard of Harrenhal was Aegon's son, and that Littlefinger's great-grandfather, the sellsword from Braavos, was illegitimate son of Harrenhal's Bastard (fathered by him in Braavos with descendant of Aegon IV from his mistress Bellegere Otherys, First Black Pearl of Braavos). The Bastard's name was Manfryd (or Manfred), and he was that son of Lucas Lothston, that betrayed Daemon Blackfyre during First Blackfyre Rebellion. But, even though, general public in Westeros thought, that Manfryd, who was known as the Bastard of Harrenhal, was son of Lucas Lothston, actually he was a secret Targaryen-bastard. Similar situation, as with Jon Snow, who is known to people, as the Bastard of Winterfell, and an illegitimate son of Eddard Stark. While actually he is a secret child of Eddard's sister and prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Don't you think, that if GRRM had used this sort of twist once (with Jon), then it's likely, that he could have used the same trick with some other character? Or look at Craster and his wifes-daughters. If GRRM did it once, maybe, he did it again, and again. Like - Jeyne Lothston is actually Aegon's daughter, and her son Manfry(e)d is simultaneously Aegon's son and grandson; and Aegon himself, is most likely, had fathered a baby with his own mother, because I think, that Aegon's mistress Serenei of Lys is actually his mother, Larra Rogare, which makes Shiera Seastar a product of incest between mother and son. Littlefinger, being dragonseed, is not as tinfoily, as you think. GRRM said, that "ae" in names of his characters is a clue, that people with names like that are Valyrians/dragonseeds, or something like that (maybe other posters remember where exactly he gave that info). Like Aegon, Aemon, Aerys, Jaehaerys, Shaera, Daenerys, Rhaenys, Maelys and Aenys (Blackfyre), Maekar, Baelor, Baelon, Daeron, Daemon, Aenar, Rhaenyra, Vaella, Alysanne, Rhaella, Elaena, Naerys, Aelora and Aelor, Aemma Arryn (daughter of Princess Daella), Laena and Laenor Velaryons, Saera, Maegelle, Baratheon, Targaryen, etc. Like in - Petyr Baelish. Like in Manfred (fake son of Lucas Lothston). And, besides "ae", in Valyrian/Targaryen names is also fairly common "e-y" (ery, eny, ely, e...y). Aerys, Jaehaerys, Daenerys, Rhaenys, Maelys, Aenys, Rhaenyra, Naerys, Viserys, Visenya, Jacaerys Lucerys and Joffrey Velaryon-Targaryens, Rosey and Gwenys (Aegon IV's bastard-daughters), Jocelyn Baratheon. Like in - Petyr. Or Jeyne Lothston. Petyr Baelish. It's possible, that he is a dragonseed. Obviously, that my theory about his origin isn't based solely on his name, there's other clues. If in the Winds, when fAegon will "officially" arrive to 7K, Littlefinger will take out Targaryen banners, that he was hiding in Darry castle, and will agitate people to cheer for fAegon and Golden Company, then know, that I was right about him - he is descendant of Falene Stokeworth and Jeyne Lothston. I think, that this part of the plot GRRM had based on the Bible. During the end of the world, described in The Book of Revelation, first appeared the Beast out of the sea, it had ten heads, and one of those heads was mortally wounded, but then healed itself, people were owed by this miracle, and became followers of that Beast. Then appeared second Beast, this one had dragon's voice and lamb's horns. It said to people, to make image of the first Beast, and to worship him. So fAegon, who is pretending, that he is Rhaegar's son (who died, when his head was smashed), is the Beast out of the sea. And Littlefinger with his Targaryen-banners, and his Lothston-Targaryen-bastard ancestor (dragon's voice) and Stokeworth ancestor (their banner is a lamb on green field - lamb's horns) is the second Beast, or false prophet. While Dany, Rhaego and Jon are "Holy Trinity" of ASOIAF (the dragon has three heads) - the Mother, the Son, the Holy Ghost. If, when Dany will be brought to Vaes Dothrak, she will be reunited there with Rhaego, know, that I was right about everything.
  10. Megorova

    What Keeping the Blood Pure, Actually Looks Like

    I think, that all of them have abilities, because their blood is a mix of Blackwoods (power of Old Gods, greenseers, wargs) and Targaryens (power of R'hllor, dragondreams/gift of foresign). As I wrote in this thread earlier, it's fairly possible, that Eddard's great-grandmother, Melantha Blackwood (wife of Willam Stark), is a descendant of Melissa Blackwood's daughters from Aegon IV - Mya and Gwenys. If those girls, or even one of them, married back into Blackwood family, then next generations of Blackwoods were carriers of dragon-genes, and later passed them to Starks. Willam Stark was great-grandson of Cregan Stark, who, same as Willam, was married with a Blackwood (Alysanne Blackwood), and had with her four daughters. It's likely, that those daughters could have married back into Blackwood family. So their descendants were bloodrelated to Starks. And that could be the reason, why several generations later, Willam Stark married with a Blackwood-girl - because they were cousins of some sort. Just look at Starks' family tree - they nearly always married with Northerners, and there are only a few rare exceptions. And first of those exceptions in the Stark family tree was Alysanne Blackwood. Her marriage with Cregan Stark was result of a special circumstances (agreement made in the end of the Dance of the Dragons). Next exception (marriage outside of The North) was marriage between Cregan's grandson Beron and Lorra Royce (from The Vale). Beron's son, Willam Stark married with Alysanne Blackwood, and later Beron's granddaughter, Jocelyn, married with Benedict Royce. And Willam's great-grandson, Eddard Stark, married with Catelyn Tully. So in 300 years of Starks' history they have married with someone from outside of The North only 5 times - 2 of them with Blackwoods, 2 with Royces, and 1 with Tully (which was also caused by special circumstances, same as marriage with Alysanne Blackwood). It's highly likely, that Melantha Blackwood actually was Cregan Stark's great-grandchild, same as her husband, Willam Stark. So they were second cousins. Also it's possible, that Benedict Royce, husband of Jocelyn Stark, was actually her first cousin. His parents were Raymar Royce and an Unknown wife. Jocelyn's grandmother, Lorra Royce, had two daughters, Berena and Alysanne, and it isn't known with whom those two were married. I think, that one of them was that Unknown wife of Raymar Royce, and mother of Benedict Royce. Also it's possible, that Lorra Royce was Cregan Stark's granddaughter. With his second wife, Lynara Stark, Cregan had five children. One of them died, three married with other Northerners, but it isn't known, with whom married their only daughter, Lyanna Stark. If Cregan Stark, during the Dance of the Dragons, forged any sort of alliance or friendship with someone from House Royce, then it's likely, that later he married his daughter Lyanna with a member of House Royce, and thus Lorra Royce, that became wife of Cregan's grandchild, Beron Stark, also was Cregan's grandchild, same as her husband. If my guesses are correct, then it means, that Starks not only always married with people, that were Northerners by blood (like Melantha Blackwood, Lorra and Benedict Royce), but were also closely blood-related to Starks. And, thus, the only real exceptions in Starks' family tree, is marriages of Starks with Alysanne Blackwood and Catelyn Tully - both were made to either end the war, or to gain military support in a span of war. Now about possibility of Starks having dragon-genes. It's possible, that Melantha Blackwood not only was 1/8 Stark, but also 1/4 Targaryen. My calculations could be totally off, but it seems, that Melantha Blackwood could be daughter of either Mya or Gwenys Rivers, and one of Blackwood-boys. Mya and Gwenys were bastards of Aegon IV, so their children were 1/4 Targs. If Melantha Blackwood really was who I think she was, then Eddard, Brandon and Lyanna were 1/32 Targaryens. Though it doesn't mean, that Bran, Arya, etc. are 1/64 Targaryens, that's because they have more Targaryen genes thru their mother Catelyn Tully is daughter of Hoster Tully and Minisa Whent. There's only one known Whent still alive - Lady Shella Whent. Based on what is known about Harrenhal, it seems, that Shella's grandfather was first Lord Whent of Harrenhal, and founder of their House. It seems, that Shella's grandfather was also Minisa's grandfather. It doesn't even matter whether Shella and Minisa were sisters or first cousins, in both cases they had the same grandfather. This man was Catelyn's great-grandfather. I think, that he was the Bastard of Harrenhal. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastard_of_Harrenhal Also I think, that he was secret son of Aegon IV Targaryen, and Aegon's own daughter, Jeyne Lothston. If that is correct, then Jeyne was 1/2 Targaryen, and her son was 3/4 Targaryen. This Bastard of Harrenhal was founder of House Whent, and Catelyn's great-grandfather. By the way, he is also Littlefingers' ancestor, which makes Cat and Petyr something like third cousins. So the Bastard of Harrenhal and first Lord Whent was 3/4 Targaryen and 1/4 Stokeworth. He married with an uncknown woman, and their children were 4/8 Uncknown 1/8 Stokeworth 3/8 Targaryen. Then Shella, Minisa, and Shella's husband, who was her cousin, were something like 8/16 Unknown2 4/16 Uncknown 1/16 Stokeworth and 3/16 Targaryen. Minisa Whent + Hoster Tully = 8/32 Unknown2 4/32 Uncknown 1/32 Stokeworth 3/32 Targaryen + 8/32 Tully + 8/32 Unknown3 (Hoster's mother, who, probably was not a Tully) <- Catelyn, Lysa, Edmure - 3/64 Targaryen. Which makes Cat's children = Eddard 1/32 Targaryen + Catelyn 3/64 Targaryen - 5/64 Targaryens. Approximately 7,8% of Targaryen blood, and even higher percentage of Blackwood blood. That's if I calculated correctly.
  11. Megorova

    Question about Viserys

    I don't have the app. So what exactly is written there about her age? Can you post a quote?
  12. Megorova

    What Keeping the Blood Pure, Actually Looks Like

    It's fairly likely, that one of Hightower-Targaryen girls married with one of Daynes (because both Daynes and Hightowers are fairly great Houses, thus, good matches for each other, and their castles are also close to each other), which makes Dyanna Dayne partially Targaryen. It's also likely, that Dyanna's daughters, Rhae and Daella, married with their cousins from Dayne family, which makes current Daynes partially Targaryen (including Gerold Dayne, who has interesting hair-coloring (silver hair, divided by a streak of midnight black), similar to Valarr (brown hair, with a streak of silver-gold running through it) and Elaena Targaryen (platinum white with a bright golden streak down the middle)). Valarr's mother was Jena Dondarrion. "The Dondarrions gave refuge to King Baelor I Targaryen and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight when they returned from Dorne via the Boneway." Maybe Dondarrions helped King Baelor, and later Baelor Breakspear married with a Dondarrion, because Dondarrions were bloodrelated to Targaryens. Maybe some time after the Conquest, Dondarrions intermarried with Baratheons, or something like that. Borros Baratheon married with Elanda Caron, and Duncan the Tall together with Arlan of Pennytree were serving to "Lords Caron and Dondarrion when they fought a Vulture King in the Red Mountains three years before the tourney at Ashford Meadow." Maybe Carons and Dondarrions were supporting each other, because they were bloodrelated. Thus, thru marriage of Borros Baratheon and Elanda Caron, and then thru marriages of their descendants with Dondarrions, Jena Dondarrion was partially Targaryen, and that's why Baelor married with her (to keep the blood of the dragon in the fold). So bicolored hair of Gerold Dayne could be a hint about his dragon-blood. Also, it's likely, that paternal grandmother of Rickard Stark, Melantha Blackwood, was partially dragonseed. That's if Mya or Gwenys Rivers, that were half-Blackwoods and half-Targaryens, later married with their cousins from House Blackwood. It seems, that Melantha was from the same generation as Betha Blackwood, so it's likely, that they were either sisters or cousins. So Aegon V married with Betha not only because he loved her, but also because she was a dragonseed (thru descendants of Melissa Blackwood). So it's fairly possible, that Dyanna and Betha, and maybe even Myriah (thru her mother, who could have been a Valyrian member of the Triarchy. Or maybe Myriah's father was son of Aliandra Martell and Drazenko Rogare, thus he himself was half-Valyrian. That's why he wasn't against marrying both of his children to Targaryens.), did had Targaryen genes. Even though we don't know about it, yet.
  13. Megorova

    Question about Viserys

    Wrong. This is info about Rhaenys, I checked all of those links, and more. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Rhaenys_Targaryen_(daughter_of_Rhaegar) Her age at the time of her death is not mentioned by Yandel in the World book. "He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King’s Landing with Rhaegar’s children as a hostage against Dorne. ... The Red Keep was soon breached, but in the chaos, misfortune soon fell upon Elia of Dorne and her children, Rhaenys and Aegon. It is tragic that the blood spilled in war may as readily be innocent as it is guilty, and that those who ravished and murdered Princess Elia escaped justice. It is not known who murdered Princess Rhaenys in her bed, or smashed the infant Prince Aegon’s head against a wall. Some whisper it was done at Aerys’s own command when he learned that Lord Lannister had taken up Robert’s cause, while others suggest that Elia did it herself for fear of what would happen to her children in the hands of her dead husband’s enemies." No age given. (It was not Tyrion, who commented about her age, it was Tywin in Tyrion's POV-chapter) And what Tywin said (in ASOS, Tyrion VI) is: "Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of . . . two? Three? He said she'd kicked him and would not stop screaming." He's not sure, how old she was at that time, either she was still 2, or already turned 3. In AGOT Eddard II, "He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." " No age mentioned. In AGOT Eddard XII, "Yet last night he had dreamt of Rhaegar's children. Lord Tywin had laid the bodies beneath the Iron Throne, wrapped in the crimson cloaks of his house guard. That was clever of him; the blood did not show so badly against the red cloth. The little princess had been barefoot, still dressed in her bed gown, and the boy . . . the boy . . ." No age mentioned. In AGOT Eddard XV, Rhaenys was mentioned by Varys, but he didn't said how old she was, only that "Rhaenys was a child too. Prince Rhaegar's daughter. A precious little thing, younger than your girls." In ASOS Tyrion IX (66) - "Ser Amory dragged Princess Rhaenys out from under her father’s bed and stabbed her to death. He had some men-at-arms with him, but I do not know their names.” He leaned forward. “It was Ser Gregor Clegane who smashed Prince Aegon’s head against a wall and raped your sister Elia with his blood and brains still on his hands." No age mentioned. No age mentioned in Griffin Reborn chapter, and in Aryanne's chapter in Winds, she said "I was seven when Elia died. They say I held her daughter Rhaenys once, when I was too young to remember. Aegon will be a stranger to me, whether true or false." We don't know, when is Aryanne's birthday in relation to Rhaenys' birthday, whether it's earlier or later in the year, so Aryanne, being 7 years old at the time of Rhaenys' death, provides us with zero useful information. In So Spake Martin, the age of children isn't mentioned, same as in chapter The End of the World book. And there's no chapter "Rhaenys Targaryen" in the world book, even though in Wikia there is posted citation 2. in References. I checked those 11 links, and run a number of various searches thru https://asearchoficeandfire.com/ No precise age anywhere. And approximate age mentioned once (by Tywin). So the only info we do have about Rhaenys' age at the time of her death is Tywins' unsure "a girl of . . . two? Three?"
  14. Megorova

    Question about Viserys

    Ok, but if Elia's first pregnancy wasn't full-term, then Rhaenys was born earlier than in the middle of September, like in the beginning of September, or even in the middle of August. So she turned three, and shortly after that the city was sacked, a month or a week or so after her birthday. But even though Rhaenys' birthday could have been earlier than in the middle of September, it doesn't influence, when was Aegon born/conceived, because it is known, that after Rhaenys' birth, Elia was bedridden for 6 months, which doesn't mean, that Aegon was conceived exactly 6 months after Rhaenys' birth. She could have been born in August, and Aegon could have been conceived 7 months later (still) in March of 281 (same as in previous calculation). Or it's possible, that Aegon was conceived 8 months after Rhaenys' birth, in April of 281, and that Elia again had a non-full-term pregnancy, that lasted 8 months, but Aegon still was born in December of 281. Thus, even though we do have some information, on which we could base our calculations, it is still not definite, when exactly happened the Sack of KL. It could have happened anytime between the middle of August and the middle of September, or even the end of September, and Jon still could be Libra (), because dates of Libra's birth is September 23 - October 23. I still insist, that Jon is Libra, i.e., that he was born either in 9th or 10th moon turn of 283, and that there was approximately one month between the Sack and Jon's birth, which makes Dany 8 months younger than Jon, so if he is Libra, then she is Gemini. I insist. I still think, that GRRM did used Libra / guardian planet Venus / Morning Star / lucifer - Lightbringer / Dawn of Daynes / Sword of the Morning / Jon was conceived at Starfall in 12th moon's turn of 282, and was born in 9th or 10th moon's turn of 283, which makes him a Libra (in our world). Robert Baratheon was only 12.5% Targaryen, which was enough for him to claim Targaryen crown. Yes, he additionally gained Iron Throne thru right of conquest, but he still needed some sort of legal basis for getting Targ-crown. And maesters of 7K used as that basis Robert's 12.5% Targaryen blood. If for inhabitants of 7K, 12.5% was enough to acknowledge Robert's right to take that crown, then for Daynes it also should be enough, that Jon is 12.5% Dayne. So, if they will know, who he really is, then they will let him have Dawn, and to become Sword of the Morning, even though he is not a Dayne from male line (Robert was 12.5% Targ thru female line). They held harvest feast, after they gather harvest, and they do it not only in autumn. Latest summer lasted for 10 years, so what, they weren't gathering harvests for all of those 10 years, just because it was not autumn-time? No autumn means no harvesting means no Harvest Feast? Unlikely. So it's an annual event, and it's not based on the current season.
  15. Megorova

    Question about Viserys

    But there is Astronomy and constellations in ASOIAF. Some stars and constellations, that are visible from one planet, could be also seen from a different planet. So it's likely, that some of ASOIAF's constellations are "ours" constellations. For example, could be that Moonmaid is Virgo. "According to the wildlings, if the red wanderer is visible within the Moonmaid, it is a good time to steal a woman." Red wandered is visible with naked eye, so could be, that it's Morning Star Venus, not Mars like it's written in the Wiki -> "Coloured red, it is associated with the Smith god by the Faith of the Seven.[1]It therefore seems to be an analog to Mars." Mars or Ares was God of War, while the Smith was Hephaestus (the Greek god of blacksmiths, metalworking, carpenters, craftsmen, artisans, sculptors, metallurgy, fire, and volcanoes). His wife was goddess of love and beauty - Aphrodite or Roman Venus. So wildlings' "red wanderer in Moonmaid" could be ours "Venus in Virgo". Also, don't you think, that description of Libra's personality does match Jon's character, and Gemini's description matches Dany's personality? No? New and "American" (because GRRM is from USA, so he was using for basis dates of USA's holidays), i.e. - Christmas Eve - December 24th, Harvest Feast of ASOIAF / American Thanksgiving - fourth Thursday of November, New Year's Eve - December 31st, etc. Aegon was born either in the end of December, or in the beginning of January. Full-term pregnancy lasts 280 days, or 40 weeks, or 9 months and 10 more days. It is known, that Aegon was conceived, when his parents were at King's Landing, so it was 6+ months after Rhaenys' birth. If Aegon was born in late December, then he was conceived in the middle of March. If Rhaenys was born 6 months before that, then she was born in the middle of September, which means, that Rhaegar's and Elia's wedding happened in early January of 280. Also, when Rhaenys was killed during the Sack of KL, she still was two years old, which means, that the Sack happened before her third birthday, so the Sack happened before the middle of September. I don't think, that it's Ashara. No no no. Jon could become next Sword of the Morning, even though he is not a member of House Dayne, because he is 1/8 Dayne, thru his great great grandmother Dyanna Dayne. If there's certain blood-based magic in that sword, then he (the sword) wouldn't care what's the surname of his carrier, what he will care is his blood, and by blood Jon is partially Dayne. Jon is a month or two older than Robb, that's why Cat always hated him so much. Because if Ned ever decided to legitimize Jon as his son, then Jon, not Robb, would have became next Lord of Winterfell. And Jon's children would have been next in line of inheritance, which would have deprived Cat's children of everything. I think, that GRRM didn't invented his own calendar and "clock", and that he is using real world as a basis. So a day in ASOIAF-world lasts 24 hours, a month has a different length, same as in our world, and the exact number of days depends on a moon's turn, in some months it's 30 days, in some it's 31, or 29. He's using real world as a basis. And about holidays, lets take Harvest Feast for example - it's a celebration, which takes place after gathering of harvest, and it takes place close to the end of the year (in last quarter), which is similar to Thanksgiving.
  16. Megorova

    Question about Viserys

    My calculations are different. I think, that Tournament at Harrenhal happened sometime around Halloween (it lasted 10 days, and one of them was October 31st), Lyanna was kidnapped less than a year after that tournament, in second half of September; Rickard and Brandon died in the middle of October; Jon was conceived on Christmas Eve, and was born between September 23 and October 23; according to GRRM, Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany, so she was born between May 21 and June 21 (that's because I think that they are Libra and Gemini, Air signs of Zodiac <- it's all connected to Starfall and Lightbringer (Dawn sword of Daynes) - guardian planet of Libra is Venus, which is called Morning Star, and in Latin - lucifer/lightbringer. So Jon, who is Libra, is Azor Ahai reborn, and future Sword of the Morning). Rhaella and Viserys were sent to Dragonstone 9 months prior Dany's birth, and shortly after their departure happened Sack of KL. After the Sack and prior Jon's birth, Ned needed time to go from KL to Storm's End, and then from there to Dorne, so it's more likely, that Jon was born approximately 1 month after the Sack and 8 months prior Dany's birth. Thus, the Sack happened in August, Jon was born in September 283, and Dany in June 284.
  17. Seems that Ironborn have different ancestors, than the rest of 7K's population. They were not First Men. Based on similarity between First Men and Dothraki, I think, that they had a common ancestor in Essos, prior First Men departed to Westeros. Both were using bronze weapons, both were horsemen, etc. First Men then, same as Dothraki now, weren't using ships or boats, they were traveling only on land. While ancestors of Ironborn were using ships. They arrived from somewhere to Iron Islands, and then something happened with their ships, like with Nymeria's fleet, or Targaryen fleet, or something like that, so they were stranded on those islands, and weren't sailing to mainland (though they made boats, and were able to go from one Iron Island to the next one). So they had iron on those islands, and were making weapons from it, but it was unavailable for inhabitants of mainland, such as First Men, until arrival of Andals, that brought knowledge about iron and use of it to Westeros(mainland).
  18. Megorova

    Question about Viserys

    I get it. There's no mistake. People just misinterpreted what is written there. Even though "Prince Viserys was but seven years of age" is written in a section of "The Year of the False Spring", it doesn't actually mean, that he was 7 years old in 281. Read again, what exactly is written there, what's the meaning of it. The meaning of that is this - Prince Viserys was but seven years of age, when he was named Aerys' heir, and that was in 283. He was born in 276, and in 283 he was 7. So there's no mistake. AGOT, Dany I: "Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb." They were escaping from King's Landing in 283. "A boy of eight" doesn't mean, that Viserys at that time was 8 years old, it means, that he was 7 years and several months old, that his 7th birthday has already happened in 283, and he was living thru 8th year of his life. Readers misinterpreted what was written in the section of False Spring, because author wrote there about events from two diferrent times. Same as he wrote about Rhaegar departing from Dragonstone in the beginning of 282, and then in the same entry about Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna, which happened many months later. But because those two events were written together, people misinterpreted them as events, that had happened close in time to each other. Same as events from the time of the False Spring, and events of Robert's Rebellion, when in 283 Aerys's people suggested to him to disinherit Rhaegar, and name 7yo Viserys as his heir.
  19. Megorova

    The Tower of Joy

    Ha ha. Besides Lyanna, there were also other people at Starfall. Ashara, servants, Wylla's family. If Kingsguards took Jon, then they also took Wylla. If Wylla was wetnurse of Ashara's baby, or she was brought to Starfall to specifically become wetnurse of Lyanna's baby, then, most likely, Wylla's own child was also at Starfall, same as her husband. Thus, if those Kingsguards took Wylla with them, then her family was worried about her, and, obviously, before Wylla left, they found out as much information as possible, about where those Kingsgurads are intending to go. Or something like that. Eitherway, the point is, is that Ned knew where he will find those three, he wasn't just blindly running all over Dorne, hoping, that he will accidentally find them. If he knew, where to find them, then someone informed him about it, same as before that, someone informed him about Lyanna's whereabouts.
  20. Megorova

    The Tower of Joy

    2. Because he promised her to 1. stop those Kingsguards from revealing any information to Robert, or 2. get Jon back (if they took him with them, when they left Starfall). The "promise scene" took place at Starfall, and Lyanna was dying in a bed of blood. So, when Ned arrived to the Tower of Joy, and confronted those Kingsguards, he didn't wanted to kill them, or he was hesitating, so he had to remind himself about Lyanna's final moments, and his promise to her, to motivate himself to do, what he had to do. 1. Because he, probably, knew, that they were at the Tower of Joy. Lyanna told him, that they are going thru Prince's Pass out of Dorne, and that, while they were going in the opposite direction, they stoped at the TofJ, so it's likely, that they will stop there again. Because they needed to rest somewhere, and besides that tower, there's not that many other options, where to make a camp. If there's a well, or a stream there, then they definitely stopped there. Ned knew, that they will be there, so that's where he went. Maybe, Ned didn't went after KG via land. He could have sailed from Starfall around Dorne on a ship, past Wyl, up that river to Vulture's Roost, and then continued going towards TofJ via land, thru mountains. I think, it would be faster to sail part of the way, than to go all the way after them on horseback. Or from Starfall he sailed up that river, towards Blackmont and higher, and then from there via land went east towards the Tower. <- This one seems to be the fastest catch-up route.
  21. Megorova

    The Tower of Joy

    He didn't. He left pregnant Lyanna at Starfall. So that's where Ned found Lyanna (dying in a bed of blood). Could be, that she wasn't at the Tower of Joy, when Ned was near it, fighting with Kingsguards. Could be, that when Ned was at Storm's End, he received information about Lyanna's location, so he went to Starfall. By the time of his arrival, Jon was already born and, possibly, kidnapped by Kingsguards. Probably, Ned arrived from Stormlands on ship, and Kingsguards were leaving Dorne via land route, thru Prince's Pass. So, the scene in which Lyanna asked Ned to promise her something, took place at Starfall, and the promise was to go after those kidnappers, and to retrieve Jon. And Ned also had to kill those three, to prevent them from revealing to Robert information about Jon, or about what happened with Lyanna (that she gave birth to Rhaegar's child). If Jon was at the Tower of Joy, then, most likely, Wylla was there with him. She was wetnurse of Ashara's baby. So, when Arthur took Jon, he also took Wylla with them. Or could be, that when Ned arrived to Starfall, both Jon and Lyanna were there, but the Kingsguards were on their way to King's Landing. And when they would have arrived there, Robert would have asked them, where they were, and where is Lyanna. And because he was the King, and they were Kingsguards, they were obliged to tell him everything. Thus, what Lyanna asked Ned to do, is to go after Kingsguards, and prevent them from giving any information to Robert. So Ned went after them, to either persuade them to keep quiet, about what they know, or to kill them, if they won't agree. Also, about the Tower of Joy, could be, that it was one of places, that Rhaegar and Lyanna were stoping at, while they were traveling from Harrenhal to Starfall. Maybe, that's where they got married, or where Rhaegar proposed to Lyanna, and she said Yes. So when Kingsguards were leaving Dorne, they stoped at the Tower of Joy, because there was water and food there, and it was a good place to rest, and they knew about it, because they have already been there, when they were traveling to Starfall. So, in my opinion - 1. Jon was born at Starfall, and 2. Lyanna died at Starfall, and 3. she wasn't at the Tower of Joy, when Ned fought there with Kingsguards (while Jon at that time was either at the ToJ, or at Starfall).
  22. Megorova

    The Tower of Joy

    In my opinion, Jon was conceived on Christmas Eve of 282 at Starfall, and was born during autumnal equinox, in 20s (22-24) of September 283. If my guess is correct, then Jon's sign of Zodiac is Libra, and his guardian planet is Venus. Venus is called Morning Star. In Latin it's also called Lucifer, which translates as Lightbringer. In the Bible Jesus was referred to as Lucifer, and Morning Star. Satan was also referred to as Lucifer, and also Son of the Dawn. Starfall is build on a site of a fallen star. Their ancestral sword Dawn was forged from the heart of that star, and whoever is wielding that sword is titled The Sword of the Morning. I think, that all of this are clues from GRRM, that point to the time and place of Jon's birth, and reveal, that he is Azor Ahai and next Sword of the Morning, while Dawn of Daynes is Lightbringer (the same sword, that was forged by previous Azor Ahai thousands years ago). So I don't think, that Jon is Brandon's and Ashara's child, or that he was born much earlier than Robb, my guess, is that Jon is just a month or two older than Robb. GRRM said, that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. Dany was born in first half of 284, so Jon was born not earlier than in second half of 283. By the time of Jon's conception Brandon was already dead. Not a chance. Rhaegar is Jon's bio father. ? I'm not arguing about whose child Jon is. To me it's obvious, that his parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna. Though Jon, most likely, was born at Starfall, because, in my opinion, that's were Rhaegar brought Lyanna, after he kidnapped her. And that's where they were staying all that time, while they were missing. That's from where Rhaegar returned to King's Landing, prior going to Trident. So, no. What Arthur said, could be interpreted differently. Just because he said that, it doesn't mean, that he refused to acknowledge Robert as King. Even if they did agreed to accept Robert as their new master, it doesn't mean, that they will be bending their knees to Robert's "dogs". Could be, that the fight at the Tower of Joy had happened because of mixed reasons. Could be, that those Kingsguards were intending to deliver Jon to King's Landing, either to give him to Robert, or the opposite - to crown him as the new King. In both cases it was as good as death sentence for Jon, so that's why Ned had to stop them. It's just doesn't make sense for Ned to kill all of them, if what they were trying to do, is to serve to Jon as their King. In this case, there really was no reason for all of them to fight to the death. Something's not right in that Battle at the Tower of Joy story. There's missing an important piece of information, and without it, we can only speculate about what was going on there.
  23. Megorova

    The Tower of Joy

    I think, that, maybe, Jon was born at Starfall, and then Kingsguards kidnapped him (they either left Lyanna at Starfall, or took her with them. If Lyanna was left at Starfall, then, when they were leaving, they took with them wetnurse Wylla, who at that time was serving at Starfall, as wetnurse of Ashara's daughter Meera Reed), and were intending to bring him to Robert. Aerys and Rhaegar were dead, and Robert became King of 7K, so Kingsguards were obliged to serve to Robert. If Robert, when he seized KL, had sent summons all over 7K to missing Kingsguards, hoping, that Lyanna was with them, and ordered them to return to KL, then they were obliged to do, what they were ordered. Because they swore an oath. An oath of a Kingsguard, which is to serve to the King, and to abide to his orders, even if those orders will result in a death of a newborn baby. And, possibly, what Ned had promised to Lyanna, when she was dying in a bed of blood at Starfall, was to go after those Kingsguards, and to get Jon back. So could be, that the battle at the Tower of Joy happened not because those Kingsguards were protecting Jon, and wanted to make him a King, but because they were intending to bring him to Robert. That's why Ned had to kill them all, to prevent them from revealing Jon's origin to Robert. Could be, that both Jon and Lyanna were left at Starfall, and they weren't at the Tower of Joy, and the battle had happened there, just because that's where Ned caught up to Kingsguards, and was trying to prevent them from revealing to Robert what had happened at Starfall (that Lyanna gave there birth to Rhaegar's son).
  24. Megorova

    Top 10 Fighters, 281 AC Edition

    Third place should be Rhaegar's. In 276 he participated in tournament at Lannisport, where he defeated 15 opponents in a row, among them Barristan Selmy, and only in the last melee was defeated by Arthur Dayne. In 278 or 279 at Storm's End Rhaegar defeated Jason Mallister, Oberyn Martell, Simon Toyne (leader of Kingswood Brotherwood), and Arthur Dayne (broke 12 lances in 13 tilts), and in the end was defeated by Barristan Selmy (who had defeated Robert Baratheon, Jon Connington, Oberyn Martell, Jason Mallister, and Kingsguard Leyton Hightower). In 281 at Harrenhall Rhaegar defeated Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy, Brandon Stark, and Yohn Royce. Barristan defeated Robert, and killed Simon Toyne, Maelys Blackfyre (who had killed Daemon Blackfyre's destrier, and then twisted Daemon's head until he tore it from his shoulders), Symon Hollard (master-at-arms at Duskendale, who had killed Kingsguard Gwayne Gaunt), and a pit-fighter Khrazz (who was much younger and heavier than Barristan). Rhaegar was only once defeated by Barristan and once by Arthur, while he had defeated both of them twice. So Rhaegar is approximately as strong as Barristan, only significantly less experienced, and he's about as strong as Arthur Dayne without Dawn. It's fairly possible, that Arthur Dayne was a dragonseed. Dyanna Dayne, mother of Aegon V, had two daughters, Daella and Rhae. One of those princesses could have married back into Dayne family, with one of her cousins. In this case, Rhaegar was third cousin to Arthur and Ashara. Which could be an explanation, why Rhaegar and Arthur were close friends (like King Aerys and his cousin Steffon Baratheon), and why Ashara became Princess Elia's lady-in-waiting -> because they were bloodrelated to Targaryens. Could be that Barristan Selmy is also a dragonseed. I could be totally wrong about this, but I think, that he is a Blackfyre on his mother's side (who possibly was daughter of Aenys Blackfyre). So, because of their dragonblood, Rhaegar Targaryen, Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy and Robert Baratheon (whose paternal grandmother was a Targaryen) should be in first quad of Top fighters. Arthur should be on first place with Dawn (or without Dawn on third place before Robert). Barristan gets second place, but only because he has more fighting experience than Rhaegar. If Rhaegar lived longer, and fought in more battles, then I'm sure, that he would have eventually surpassed Barristan. And Rhaegar third, while Robert is fourth. Just because Robert managed to kill Rhaegar in a combat, doesn't mean, that Robert was a better fighter. I think, that we should take into consideration circumstances of that battle - they were highly unfavourable for Rhaegar. His wife and children were kept as hostages by Rhaegar's crazy father. He had to leave pregnant Lyanna back at Starfall. By the time of his return to King's Landing, Targaryen troops had suffered great losses, and were severely demoralized. Troops of The North, The Vale, Riverlands and Stormlands were fighting on Robert's side. Troops of Westerlands were staying away from battlefield. Troops of The Reach were stalling time at Storm's End (in my opinion Tyrells didn't went into battle to support Aerys' troops, because Tyrells and Redwynes were secretly supporting Blackfyres, and were working in tandem with Varys, who is an agent of Blackfyres). So on Targaryens' side there was only meager army of Crownlands, and 10.000 soldiers, that arrived all the way from Dorne, so they were not in a best condition, because they (same as Rhaegar) barely had any time to rest, after their arrival from south, and were immediately sent to fight at the Trident. Under all of those unfavourable conditions, it was nearly impossible for Rhaegar to win in that battle. So we shouldn't judge Rhaegar's fighting capabilities solely based on his death by Robert. Also Robert's weapon was heavier (Robert himself was also heavier than Rhaegar, so it wasn't hard for him to wield that warhammer), more deadly, and had further reach than Rhaegar's sword. Rhaegar's sword wasn't Valyrian steel, so even several dozens of hits of that sword on Robert's armor, were not deadly. While even one well-aimed hit of Robert's spiked warhammer was an end-game for Rhaegar. They were armed unfairly. Under more fair fighting conditions, Rhaegar would have definitely won. Robert was physically stronger, but Rhaegar was more skilled, more agile, faster, and smarter. If they both were armed with swords, Rhaegar would have won. Rhaegar defeated both Tygett and Gerion Lannister in 276.
  25. Megorova

    Poll: Has Brienne Become a Wight?

    No. I think, that she is not undead. Furthermore, in my opinion, it's unlikely, that she will die before she will deliver at least one of Cat's daughters to her. Probably, she will take Jaime, and will persuade him to go to The Vale to find Sansa. Then she will bring both Sansa and Jaime to Cat. And then either Cat will execute Jaime, or he will be spared, if he will promise to free Edmure, and if he will reveal to Cat, that Arya in Winterfell is a fake. So, probably, Jaime will go to fetch Edmure, and Brienne will go to search Arya.
×