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Blackwater Revenant

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  1. Blackwater Revenant

    Rethinking Saint Jon and Winterfell

    I agree, but my point being that it's not necessarily exclusive that its his vows holding him back from accepting Stannis' offer, but his commitment and the character he has shown with his dedication to the cause of the Watch. Whether or not, due to the current or upcoming circumstances, he breaks his vows or leaves the Watch, his commitment to doing what is right, and necessary, overrides his desire to have Winterfell. And as I pointed out in my subsequent posts, I don't believe Jon's desire to have Winterfell stems from actually wanting to be a Lord ruling a castle. He doesn't really want Winterfell, those feelings are just a manifestation of his longing to be a true Stark. He wants Winterfell because being a bastard means that he can never have it. To be granted Lordship of Winterfell would be vindication to him that he belongs there, and is in fact a true son of his father. But stealing Winterfell, or acquiring it at the peril of one of his siblings, would not give him the vindication he is looking for. I understand that you are proposing that he may be changed after what has transpired, but if that is the case, I don't feel that his prior desires would then be relevant in establishing a motive for him to attempt to take Winterfell. Yes, but cutting down the Heart tree is symbolic of him disrespecting his family, and turning against them in order to aquire Winterfell. Again, something that would not give him Winterfell in a way that would coincide with the reason he wants it.
  2. Blackwater Revenant

    Rethinking Saint Jon and Winterfell

    Jon's friends? You mean the same friends that shortly before, hated Jon, as he was inadvertently bullying them? You seem to want to ignore the fact that this was shortly after Jon arrived at the Wall, and he has experienced a whole lot since, and has matured and grown exponentially since his attempted desertion. Jon is not the same naive and selfish boy that he was then. He has since shown that he is now completely dedicated to the Watch, and his commitment.
  3. Blackwater Revenant

    Rethinking Saint Jon and Winterfell

    Yeah, I get what you're trying to say with this analogy, however, it's quite absurd for many reasons. Just to name a couple: First, this is a weak example to use, as you are trying to draw an equivalency between a deplorable and willfully harmful act, and a compassionate and humanitarian act, in a sad and failed attempt to portray Jon in a bad light. Secondly, you are making up an extremely unlikely and contrived scenario, and stating it as if it's a guaranteed fact, in order to support your fabricated argument. First off, Jon would not have Arya paraded around in front of everyone, making her presence at the Wall common knowledge; this would be kept as secretive as possible. (Seven Hells, a simple cloak with a hood, and your whole assertion is foiled) Secondly, Arya and Jon are not identical twins. Just because they share some of the common traits of the Starks, that does not mean that everyone who sees them, just out of the blue, is going to make the connection, and assume that this girl is Arya. It's ridiculous that you are aware that an imposter can be used in Arya's place, in order to marry her off in front of all the Lords in the North, but think some random girl showing up at the Wall, with all the thousands of new faces around there, is going to be noticed, and recognized as Arya by the men of the Watch. Sorry, but this just another of your failed attempts to make shit up in order to slander characters, and accuse them of committing acts that are in no way supported by the text.
  4. Blackwater Revenant

    What if Greyjoys were isolationist?

    Either of two scenarios: 1. Instead of dying in battle against the Shield Islands, Quellon dies due to his failing health, and the story unfolds in the same manner as it has been written. 2. None of us illiterate morons see your ignorantly rude and pointless OP, as this is a forum dedicated to discussing ASoIaF, the story that GRRM wrote, and your post would be on a different forum, dedicated to discussing the non existent story that you are referring to.
  5. Blackwater Revenant

    Rethinking Saint Jon and Winterfell

    Huh, no. I must have accidentally quoted the comment by @Widowmaker 811from my previous response to him/her. I didn't comment on whether it was right or wrong to do so. I was replying to the assertion that Jon's decision to rescue the girl in grey, put the Watch at risk of retaliation by Ramsey; Which would not have been the case in the scenario that I've suggested. Mance's decision to go to Winterfell put the Watch at risk, not Jon's decision to have a fleeing girl rescued from the shores of Long Lake. How would that be declaring war, if Ramsey knew nothing about it?
  6. Blackwater Revenant

    Rethinking Saint Jon and Winterfell

    How do you know what Jon's plans were, and what he was willing to risk? As far as you know, he planned to have Arya sent off to Essos after Mance brought her back from Long Lake, with Ramsey never knowing a thing about his involvement. Jon had no knowledge of, and nothing to do with Mance going to Winterfell.
  7. Blackwater Revenant

    Rethinking Saint Jon and Winterfell

    Oh, and I forgot to ask, did Lord Commander Momont betray the Watch with his decision to not execute Jon for his attempted desertion, or the many brothers who have broken their oaths by visiting Old Town? Of course not, that decision was within his authority as the Lord Commander; As it was within Jon's authority to pardon Mance, as he felt he could be of use to the Night's Watch's cause (unlike Slynt). The only betrayal, was by Marsh and his cronies, who attempted to assassinate their sworn brother, and Lord Commander, for his attempts to fullfil his duties of protecting the realms of men from the threat that it is the obligation of the Watch to defend against.
  8. Blackwater Revenant

    Rethinking Saint Jon and Winterfell

    Aside from the fact that you are making factually false accusations - (AEO) What was this operation? To extract Arya from atop of a dying horse along side a frozen lake? - nothing you are describing is a betrayal. Did Ramsey betray the Boltons by participating in the illegal and secretive marriage to Jeyne, of which has prompted men to make statements as to them wishing to die bathing in Bolton blood? Did Roose betray the Boltons by participating in the secretive and illegal massacre at the Twins, resulting in the entire North turning against them and plotting their downfall? How about Jofrey, did he betray the Lannisters with his illegal and secretive attempted murder of Bran, which set in motions the events leading up to the wofk? Or Jaime and Cercei, did they betray the Lannisters by engaging in their secretive and illegal affair, of which has led to the circumstances that will bring about the downfall of the Lannister House? Sorry, but the acts you are accusing Jon of, do not correlate to him betraying the Watch. And in fact, Jon is the one character in the entire series, who has shown he is wholeheartedly committed to upholding his commitment to the Watch. --- How this pertains to the OP? As I've alluded to up-thread, Jon was given the opportunity to take Winterfell for himself. Despite his desire to rule Winterfell (as laid out in the OP), he refused this offer, as his commitments to his oath and to do what he felt was right, outweighed this desire. Thus, showing that he was not willing to betray the Watch or his oath, in order to obtain Winterfell; Why would he then be willing to betray his siblings, and steal Winterfell from one of them, if he wasn't willing to accept Winterfell by much more honorable and legitimate means? Jon's desire for Winterfell, is a reflection of his insecurities brought on by him being a bastard, and of him being treated as a second class member of the family. It's also symbolic of his yearning to be accepted as a true Stark, and not stemming from a desire to be a Lord, ruling a castle. Him taking Winterfell away from one of his siblings, by dishonorable means, would not fulfill this longing of his to be accepted as a true Stark.
  9. Blackwater Revenant

    Rethinking Saint Jon and Winterfell

    With all due respect @Lollygag, but Jon's commitment to upholding his oath and fulfilling his duties to protect the realms of men as a sworn brother of the Watch, is one of the main discerning factors that influenced him to turn down Stannis' offer to make him the Lord of Winterfell. You cannot expect to have a discussion in where Jon's childhood desire to have Winterfell is portrayed as an undesirable and condemnatory character trait, and not allow discussion pertaining to him ignoring these desires, and making a selfless sacrifice in order to uphold his oath. The fact that he was given a legitimate means to acquire Winterfell (without stealing it), and turned it down due to his oath, I feel, is relevant to assessing whether or not Jon would "attempt to steal Winterfell from his siblings". As well, a false claim that Jon betrayed the Watch, is defamation of his character, and if it were true, would greatly influence my thoughts as to whether or not Jon would be willing to accept Winterfell under the circumstances of it being in opposition of one of his siblings.
  10. Blackwater Revenant

    Rethinking Saint Jon and Winterfell

    No, what I am saying is that a claim that Jon betrayed the Watch is a false one, not supported by anything in the text. Betraying the Watch would entail Jon commiting a deceptive or treacherous act, with the willful attempt to bring down or impede the cause of the Watch. Like I stated, one can argue that Jon's actions were wrong, selfish, or harmful to the Watch, but nothing Jon did was with the intent to impede the Watch, or to betray his brothers. His decision to save the girl in grey, is not synonymous with him turning his back on his duties. Mayhaps, one can argue that this decision was breaking his oath, but he still had every intent and desire to do what he felt needed to be done, in order to protect the realms of men from the threat posed by the Others.
  11. Blackwater Revenant

    Rethinking Saint Jon and Winterfell

    So you are saying that these people hate Jon for an act that he never committed, and had absolutely no intent of doing? Whether one wants to argue that Jon's attempt to have a young helpless girl (who he thought was Arya) rescued from the wilderness, extreme weather, and starvation, was breaking his oaths or not, none of those actions corelate into him having betrayed the Watch. One may also argue that the decisions Jon made were not right, or beneficial to the Watch, but still, nothing he did (or intended to do) was a betrayal to the Watch, and is just a fabricated falsehood, made up by Jon haters in an attempt to justify their hatred.
  12. Blackwater Revenant

    Will Dany's Dragons lay eggs?

    We are way off topic, so I will refrain from getting into it, but let me just say, you are completely missing my point, and I cannot really agree with anything you wrote here.
  13. Blackwater Revenant

    Will Dany's Dragons lay eggs?

    I know you "cannot really quote that here", it was a retorical question, as I know that GRRM never said that. (certainly not pertaining to the books, and his story that we are discussing here, in the book forum) Ha! You might research that stuff, but I, most definitely will not be doing so. ...I'm disappointed Lord Varys, despite all we do not see eye to eye on, I thought at least we both could agreed that matters pertaining to the show do not belong in book discussion. I would think by now, you would know that you cannot get away with these fallacies with me. Please explain how there is any relevance in the circumstances of the examples you provided, and the circumstances facing Jon. I do not consider Jon a Stark because his mother is one. Jon was raised believing that Ned was his father, and that he is the bastard blood of a Stark. His whole identity is defined by his insecurities born of him being a bastard, and driven by his desire to be a true Stark, and to live up to the example set by the man that was his real and only father he had his entire life. Do you really think that Jon is not going to consider Ned his father, just because he finds out that he actually has Targaryen blood? What you don't seem to realize is that Jon, and the author, do not believe in this elitist right of blood; What makes a man who he is, is his beliefs and his actions, not what blood he is of. Wolves. Plural. The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. I find it comical that you think a story can only be told about a protagonist, if they are a strong warrior type; Especially when we are talking about a story written by an author who has said that the only stories worth telling are that of the human heart in conflict with itself. (Seriously, I'm starting to think you are a closet supporter and fan of D&D)
  14. Blackwater Revenant

    Will Dany's Dragons lay eggs?

    Yeah? Do you have a link to this quote by George? As far as I recall, he considers there to be five main protagonists, and only one of those are a Targaryen; Jon is, and always will be a true Snow/Stark, despite his half Targ blood. I Know you think this story is about the all mighty Targs, and their "rightful" claim to rule the Seven Kingdoms, but you'll see (and be mighty disappointed, I presume), when the cold winds blow, and a time for Wolves has come.
  15. Blackwater Revenant

    Will Dany's Dragons lay eggs?

    ...Sounds as though you've only read GRRM's short stories, the Dunk and Egg novellas, The Princess and the Queen, and The Rogue Prince. You do realize that there are five other, published, full length novels that tell an elaborate, and wide encompassing story that does not revolve around just the Targaryens, don't you?
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