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Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

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  1. Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

    "The Others Take You"

    In the old synopsis and book descriptions for the Others, they are referred to as the "neverborn." So they probably cannot procreate the way the warm blooded creatures do. I vaguely remember GRRM mentioning that passion generates heat, or something like that in the books (or was it another story?) The Others disintegrate in the presence of heat. So they probably can't reproduce the mammalian way. The babies were never going to be wights, because how useless would that be? Babies can't walk or fight. So there's definitely another purpose for that. In AWOIAF, it's mentioned that there are no children in Asshai, and no animals. So this probably plays into it. We wouldn't know how until TWOW is released. Do you mean the Night's King? The Night King exists only in the show as the leader of the WW or something. In the books, the Night's King is a former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He's not explicitly mentioned as a Stark, but could be. In any case, the Starks descend from the First Men. Considering the Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander, he probably had First Men's blood too.
  2. Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    "Modern Humans Once Mated with Other Species:Genetic studies reveal that some modern humans carry DNA from extinct hominid species, evidence of ancient interbreeding" https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/modern-humans-once-mated-with-other-species-125536319 Maybe not with chimps because we have long been separated from ape cousins that still live in the jungles. If we could, either the chimps or us would have gotten absorbed into one community, like with the missing hominids of the past.
  3. Yes but Maegor was cruel. By the time he realized he is infertile, people already hated him for his sadism. I suppose the later Targs didn't need to take more than one wife because they didn't need to. If there are multiple male siblings, there would be problems if one brother took two or three sisters to wife. And GRRM has said that if you have dragons, you can have as many wives as you want. Also, the Faith is not necessarily the people. The Faith have always had problems with Targs incest marriages. But the people don't have similar problems. Considering that Rhaegar was widely liked (even Tywin likes him), him taking a second wife wouldn't have caused a major ruckus.
  4. Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    Hahaha. Actually, the incestuous relations don't really happen with siblings who are close to each other. I mean in many parts of Asia, it's not uncommon for the kids to sleep in the same room on a giant mat for whatever, until they are off to college. But that doesn't necessarily lead to them banging each other. Experimentation I think is common among cousins, who don't live together. But in rural areas, where there are no other teens to hang out, some siblings may start experimenting. It should be noted that in socially conservative societies, girls and boys are separated in teen years. For example, if you are a girl, you may get to play with your brother and sleep with him but only until you get your first period. Then the girl is separated from male siblings and even the father. That causes estrangement, which can lead to siblings viewing each other as sexual partners. Doesn't this happen in movies The Witch (only a little bit), the Kite Runner, and Cement Garden (all the kids are isolated from the regular society)? But the incest case I've heard of is when long lost siblings find each other. I've heard of one story when a couple discovered that they were actually half siblings. And there are also these stories of family members who are separated as children and reunited as adults who end up in sexual relationships. Early on, in GoT, people think the Targs have a tendency to go mad. But now we know it's the dragon dreams, or rather prophetic dreams. Some Targs get it, and some can deal with it, like Dany, and others I suppose are overwhelmed, like Dany's father. But other than that, Targs aren't born with deformities. There are a select few miscarriages/ cursed babies with lizard features, but no one grows into adulthood with lizard tales for example. Interesting point.
  5. Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    There are plenty of folktales and origin stories where incest was practiced as a way of survival. People resort to cannibalism when they don't have anything to eat, and they may have babies with close relatives when other relatives are not around. If we go up the Mendelian charts, the people at the topmost levels would naturally be closely related. We can only afford to find mates who are not closely related only after the population vastly expands. In some societies, marrying brother to sister under certain circumstances (like royalty) was considered fine. And marrying cousins from either only mother's side or father's side was okay too. One thing that was never okay was marrying parent to child. This type of relation was always forbidden. Even the Greek were disgusted by it. And it doesn't occur in ASOIAF wither. Targs and old Valyrians marry siblings, and rarely maybe uncles/aunts and nieces or nephews, but never parents and children. I don't think GRRM is moralizing about incest in his stories. He just presents it as something that happens. I listed to Skin Trade and Bitterblooms audio books a while back. In Bitterblooms, the clans practice incest because they are so isolated. Occasionally, there's the Gathering so people from different clans can have sex. The protag, as I remember, has nine children. Some of this children are from her own clan, presumably with people she is related to. There are two or three fathered by a non-clan member. Out of all nine, only some survive. And no one is brought down in that short story because of incest. The story starts with the protag burying an older male relative who was also her lover. But that's just the start of her growing up and learning her true self, like Dany does after she escapes Viserys's control. In The Skin Trade, inbreeding within a very small group of species lead to the birth of a werewolf who cannot change. But that's not necessarily bad this per se. In the end, it was the older direwolf who turns out to be the bad guy. He doesn't like the way his son is, even though from another perspective, there's nothing really wrong with the son. I suppose he's a traditionalist, or rather represents old ideas. He thinks his son is malformed, even though the kid seems to have formed a connection with the mysterious WW-type predator that kills direwolves. All the other werewolves in the book are not pureblooded direwolves. But only the direwolf thinks that there's something wrong with them because they are half-breeds and such. The sidekick is a mixed-blood mutt, who escapes the serial killer, and his small size probably helped. So it's more of new things winning out over old conventions rather than incest being either good or bad. In ASOIAF, GRRM never presents the practice as utterly immoral. What's wrong or immoral is policing consensual sexual behavior. In this sense, the moral position both the Targs and the Septons have is wrong. The septons ban incest, and Targs are insistent on it when there are suitable siblings. So we have situations like Aegon V "Egg" forbidding his children to intermarry, even though one of his sons is in love with one of his daughters. On the other hand, Dany's mother and father are forced to marry to continue the family line. And the Faith jails people for incest and homosexuality, which is something that GRRM does not present in a positive light. (In real life, people are jailed under English law and under some state laws for incest. Both parties are thrown in jail. If the relationships are consensual, what's really the point?) GRRM is also careful not to present children born of incest has "faulty" in some way. There are good Targs and bad Targs, just like the descendants in other formerly royal families of the realm. Cersei's children are normal, except for Joffery, who is as narcissistic and cruel as she is. Cersei and Jamie aren't products of incest, and look how they are. So I very highly doubt moralizing against incest is what GRRM is aiming for here.
  6. Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    I think you mean in GRRM's world. In real world, the opposite happens. I think us humans interbred with Neanderthals, which is inter-species mating. That's why we are how we are now. But I doubt GRRM knew this information way back in the nineties.
  7. Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

    Incest Deficiencies, or lack thereof

    Do the posters think GRRM knows all this genetic stuff when he's writing the characters? It's seems to me that his understanding of genetics comes from simple Mendelian logic. Though geneticists now know that genes and heredity is more complicated. I suppose most people not awfully familiar with genetics think that babies born of incest somehow come out deformed because of deliberate misinformation (like seriously, do majority of people need to told not to bang their siblings?) But most isolated or stationary populations, as several people here have pointed out, would actually be more inbred than they think they are. Especially populations stuck on islands or in small, isolated towns, where people would just marry others close by, who are likely to be related to them. In any case, GRRM is associating dragon affinity with some form of madness in Targs. So I guess that's the "deformity" associated with incest? This reminds me of this news article I recently read about an island of colorblind people. There's this tiny isolated island called Pingelap where an usually high percentage of the population is colorblind because of a common ancestor. The island suffered a tsunami back in the day that killed everyone except 20 people including the king, who was colorblind. The king then took it upon himself to repopulate the island by having as many children as possible. Then those children had children, passing down the colorblind trait. Now the island's population is up to 10% colorblind, a significantly high rate than the global average (I suppose country too). Reading that story reminded me of the Targs.
  8. Actually, no. Rhaegar was the crown prince but he dies before becoming king. Aerys the Mad then names Viserys crown prince. So when GoT begins, if there's a "rightful" king, it would be Viserys. Following his death later in GoT, Dany becomes the heir because presumably Viserys names her heir. Jon is a prince, but he is still only half a Targ. And if (f)Aegon is actually who he says he is, then he would be Jon's elder brother and higher up in line to claim the throne. But none of this really matters. The Targs were usurped. So the rightful king would legally be the next person to conquer Westeros and claim the throne. So far, Cersei has a hold of the throne, but we know that won't last long. I think Jon is now the rightful heir to the throne of the North, given that he is the oldest surviving Stark male. However, he took the oath of the NW, so he is not eligible for any throne regardless of his heritage. He shall be a man of the NW until all his days end (being "dead" is carefully left out of the oath). But aren't Westerosi already used to Targs taking more than one wife? Both of Aegon's sons were kings and no one called the younger Maegor a bastard. We Rhaegar took Lyanna to wife, then Westerosi would have to accept that marriage. Haha, good one.
  9. Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

    Is Dany going to sack more cities?

    Hmmm...it's possible. But I think you are misunderstanding Illyrio. I don't think he's completely against Dany or the Targs. Remember he tries to actually convince Viserys to stay with him and not go with the khalasar. Viserys ignores both his and Dany's advise and goes. I don't think it was Illyrio who "convinced" Viserys to sell her. He only facilitated the transaction. If Illyrio really wanted the last Targs dead, he could have just easily disposed of them and not gone to any trouble. I mean, he did take a risk with Dany's wedding to Drogo. If Drogo hadn't liked Dany or if the wedding had gone wrong somehow, all of that would come back to Illyrio. So that makes his motives all the more unclear. If he wanted (f)Aegon on the throne, he could have made a claim without the last Targ heirs being in the way. I think it's entirely possible that he didn't really take Dany or the Beggar King as serious threats, like Bobby. Maybe he planned to install Balckfyres on the throne, but still keep the Targs around because they are kindred after all. Dany knows that a rich merchant like Illyrio doesn't make deals without some form of benefit to him. So if she does meet him again, she might be grateful to him for the dragon eggs and trying to keep Viserys in Pentos. But if he tries to make a deal again, Dany would know that there's a price attached. I don't think Illyrio and Dany are going to meet on equal terms again. When Dany comes this way west again (from where she is right now), it would be with a Dothraki army. She seems more and more like the Stallion that Mounts the World (from where she left off). I think Viserys was paranoid about assassins since long before they met Illyrio is Pentos. Dany recalls him watching over his back in the Free Cities, ever since they were young. And later it turns out Viserys wasn't wrong. If Robert had been aware where they were, he would have sent assassins earlier, as he eventually did. Also, I don't think Dany changes from GoT. She goes through many things and has to grow up fast. She learns to be stronger for sure. But she is still fundamentally Dany. She's still mentally haunted by her abusive brother. In a way, she is following Viserys's dream. He's the one who wanted to conquer Westeros. From Dany's last chapter in DwD, we can discern that she feels a lot of guilt about his death that she keeps hidden.
  10. Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

    "The Others Take You"

    What? What are you trying to say? Why would humanity need to be protected from the kings of the north?
  11. Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

    what really caused the doom of valyria?

    That is speculation by some scholars. They assume that someone hired FM to kill mages who may or may not have existed. But back then the FM as a group of assassins the world knows now did not exist. As in, people from around the world didn't pay them to take out rivals and enemies. But we do know that the FM originated in the slave mines of Valyria. And they did play a role in bringing forth the Doom. The first FM may have killed slave masters and donned their visage. But that still leaves the big question of how the peninsula got scattered into pieces in the most unnatural fashion. And why no one can go back to assess the damage.
  12. Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

    Is Dany going to sack more cities?

    So her sentiment dramatically changes from GoT? Jorah in Clash is only telling Dany what she already knows. I think she may feel like she owes him, but her sense of gratitude doesn't necessarily translate to trust. She keeps telling herself that Illyrio did this and that, but I highly doubt she would ever do as he tells her to based on blind trust.
  13. Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

    Heresy 208 Winter is Coming

    Isn't this because he doesn't HAVE any more chapters, sample or otherwise, to read? That would indicate that he is indeed writing the book. The sample chapters so far have been chapters excluded from Dance because of book length, I think.
  14. Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

    winter will not come in 2018

    You know, I've been thinking the same. I think GRRM has abandoned the series but really can't come out and say it. I don't think GRRM has ever actually finished a series he has started. His Skin Trade was supposed to be an urban fantasy series that never got past the first book. The Hedge Knight was supposed to be a 12-book series that has since been abandoned. The 1,000-world series, which is made up of standalone novels, was supposed to conclude with a final book called Avalon, but GRRM abandoned that series in favor of ASOIAF. Most of his works are compilations of his short stories and novellas. He starts these grand series, but never finishes them. I think he did say so once. He probably only published Feast and Dance under pressure from publishers because the show was about to premiere, and then it premiered to great success. I know he has released "sample TWOW" chapters, but these chapters were actually supposed to be part of DWD, but the publisher cut them out because the book was getting too long. And the AWOIAF and the Fire and Blood Targ history books are really his notes for the world he was building. So I don't think he is ever going to finish the series. Because if he wanted to, he would already have released TWOW, or something. If the story was getting too long, he would have said so, but would have already published at least a short story. Feast was just one half of Dance. The big question is, can we love the books without ever seeing a conclusion?
  15. Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

    what really caused the doom of valyria?

    Hahaha I hope you are being sarcastic because you do know the FM didn't exist back then? This refers to Robert's Rebellion, I think. The Lannisters joined up with Bob, backing him with their enormous wealth. The result is the evisceration of the last dragon-riding family from Valyria. We can safely say that the Lannisters at the time didn't have a motivation to bring about the Doom or even meddle with Valyrian politics. We still don't know exactly what sparked the Rebellion, as in what led to Robert and Brandon Stark believing Rhaegar had Lyanna kidnapped. Lannister gold may have played a part in paying someone to spread rumors. We know Tywin had major beef with Aerys, even though he may not have intended Rhaegar to die at least initially. The FM didn't exist back when Valyrians were powerful. As the Kindly Man tells Arya, the first FM was a slave in the Valyrian mines who begins to worship their god of death. The FM becomes famous as assassins after the Doom, not before. They only become free because of the Doom. The idea that the Fourteen Flames were controlled by mages who were later assassinated leading to the Doom is only speculation by the maesters. The reality may not be as neat. The Valyrians lived among these Fourteen Flames since forever, even before they had dragons. I highly doubt there were mages back then. Remember that the Doom has cursed the entire peninsula. No one can travel to the region and come back alive or sane. So far, only Euron claims to have traveled there. If that is true, the journey may have driven him mad. A catastrophe like this would not be just a natural thing, or a natural result of volcanoes erupting after spells fail, because the whole place is now accursed.
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