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Parwan Nays

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  1. Parwan Nays

    [Spoilers] Episode 805 Discussion

    An interesting sidelight, a worthwhile speculation about the Iron Bank. Whether you're right or wrong, it's unlikely that a future book or TV series will say. To me, it's clear that the business of IB is just another example of poorly thought out story telling by the show runners. The bankers are supposed to be hard headed businessmen, right? What the hell could they have possibly expected to gain from Westeros? How would they have made any money on their investment? Did they think that the Night King would repay them with chunks of ice? If Dany won, she would have less than zero obligation to repay the loan. Even if Cersei won, Westeros would have been a wreck, and winter (Remember winter? I think winter was mentioned a few times in the series.) would just be starting. The only reasonable course for the IB would be to write off their losses in the west (i.e. the money given to Stannis) and do what they could to make money in Esos.
  2. Parwan Nays

    The Ending Was very conventional

    Yeah, bittersweet hogwash. The whole thing was more like inferior grade baloney and stale bread. I watched one video where it was pointed out that Greyworm would have called together that sorry group only to Red Wedding the whole bunch. Obviously, that scene was not going to be written and produced by the HBO GoT people. A rather amusing thought nevertheless. A very slightly more likely presentation: Several armed Dothraki fellows appear from the sidelines. They express displeasure at not being invited to the discussion, and at all the credit-grabbing being undertaken by the Northerners. They announce that they and the Unsullied are now in control. Lord Royce rises and announces his support for the warriors. He points out that, not only were he and the other Vale lords and knights unhappy with northern credit-grabbing concerning the Battle of Winterfell, they also would like to point out that they saved Sansa and Jon’s precious skin. The falcon banner guys weren’t the ones who sided with the Boltons and thus gave tacit support to that little event at the Twins. Furthermore, Royce announces that he has discovered the true parentage of Sweet Bastard. The momma’s boy has no claim to rule the Vale. The Starks can have him if they want him. Otherwise, he can go The Fingers. Then some distant cousins of Bobby B step forth. They question the ability of a non-queen to legitimize a bastard. They also point out that they are the ones who have been taking care of Storms End while being ignored by the supposed rulers. Finally, the Prince of Dorne steps into the company of his fellows. He says that the Dothraki and the Unsullied have agreed to turn Tyrion over to him and the Baratheons. They will question him on matters like his knowledge of Cersei and Jaime’s sexual activities, the nature of legitimate succession in the realm, and the use of wildfire. Again, not a scene that was going to be presented on TV, but far superior to that collection of fan service and happy feel-goodism that we had dumped on us at the end of GoT.
  3. Good points here. I believe I'm in basic agreement with this post, though I'm not clear on what you mean by falling back on the failsafe of bad writing. Yes, the 20 good men business was bad stuff. There's lots of bad stuff in the later seasons. I've taken part in some discussions on how one could improve the story telling related to Cersei's rise and her conflict with Daenerys. I believe the best way to make things better would involve going back a good ways. Don't have Cersei destroy the sept. Find a way for her to get out from under the charges against her and also come to some kind of a working agreement with the Tyrells. You should avoid the weird situation where this creep of the torture chamber somehow convinces a bunch of high lords that he has taken time out to get a master's degree in engineering from the Westerosi equivalent of West Post, and so they can trust his never-actually-used anti-dragon weapon. A possibility: The High Sparrow falls ill with a strange disease and dies quickly. A number of Sparrows start getting sick. We have a street scene where a Sparrow encounters a cute little girl with a toy. The toy unfolds to uncover a manticore which attacks and kills the holy man. Now things have taken an interesting turn. Instead of some unbelievable super weapon, we have a more interesting Qyburn, a man of powerful magic, and a man with important connections in the east. Working with his allies, he can develop measures and methods which will threaten the Mother of Dragons. Some elements of the faith, ones who never cared for the fanaticism of the High Sparrow, fall in line. Margaery and Tommen remain alive. Qyburn's rise to power and prominence, however, is a public middle finger to the Citadel, which comes out in favor of a Targaryen restoration. Cersei does not actually become queen, but she becomes a real power behind the throne. No one wants to cross her. I don't say that the above solution is the only, or even the best possible one. I believe, however, that it could have been developed in an interesting way that would involve worthwhile psychology and sociology, while not slowing the pace of things or occupying too much screen time.
  4. Thank you very much. And I repeat my thanks to the OP. This is a good thread.
  5. 1. Good. I thought we pretty much agreed on these matters. 2. You're probably right about GRRM, and almost certainly right about D&D. The author certainly needs to know basic rules, but this does not mean he has to know everything. It seems to me that one could write a good story without really mapping things out, even in one's own head. If, for example, Asshai is simply out there and probably somehow connected to the origin of dragons, and if the main threat to the kingdom is the White Walkers, why would it be necessary to have a complete and detailed understanding of the relationship between Asshai and the WW? Why couldn't it be unclear whether or not there even is any relationship?
  6. Does the rest of the realm collaborate at all? Hardly. That's one of the many objections I have to this season, indeed to most of the later seasons. Until that corny Kumbaya conference in the last episode, most of the kingdoms are just ignored. Even the Vale is ignored. The falcon banner lords and knights should still be in the North, shouldn't they? I don't remember any scene where they departed. But are they even on screen? Does it ever occur to Daenerys or any of her incredibly (and quite recently) incompetent advisers to even talk to them? Why would they have to overcome her? She is, after all, a monarch, and the story takes place in a monarchy. Shouldn't the leaders and the people be able to deal with a big ego by now? What the hell (or seven hells), instead of just blathering on about "for the realm," actually make some halfway clever moves for the realm. If, say, the queen needs a victory parade, then provide a victory parade. If some people don't feel love toward her, then tell them to fake it. One might start with the post battle celebration. Why was it that only the ""cool guys" (pun definitely intended) were invited? The wildlings and the northerners made up virtually the entire crowd. There were no Unsullied and no Dothraki. Those men bled and died for Westeros. Why can't they now be counted as Westerosi? They love the Mother of Dragons. If they are included in things, then one should be able to see a solution to the untreated problems. Maybe with just a bit of competent action on the part of formerly intelligent men (first three or four seasons, I'd say), things would not have had to end in disaster.
  7. It appears to me that posters on this thread are talking about a few different things. If I understand you correctly, you don't disagree with people like darmody concerning some big problems with the writing in GoT: I maintain that this is important and fundamentally sound criticism. Some people, in this thread and elsewhere, are severely critical of D&D's efforts, finding their writing to be often poor and sometimes shoddy. Others are critical, but less severe. I belong to the former group. I believe, for example, that the ascension of Cersei Lannister to the throne and her continued hold on power is flat out ridiculous. It would almost certainly not happen in a quasi medieval world like Westeros, and certainly not in the way D&D portray it. One does not need to explain how magic works to validate this position. Another, more general, issue, is your assertion that "You cannot have sociologically driven drama in a fantasy world if the fantastic is not consistently defined." I'm not convinced of this. There are different approaches to magic in fantasy literature. Briefly, we can look at two basic ones (noting that there may be other approaches and various combinations of approaches). Magic could be a sort of alternate science, something that is part of the structure of a created world. This is true in the work of one of my favorite authors, Ursula K. Le Guin. It's true in those worlds where you have colleges and academies of magic (e.g. Harry Potter). Another approach is for magic to be a wild element, something hard to explain, perhaps inexplicable. In this case, it might be something on the fringes, something out there in the mysterious east and/or the frozen north. This, I believe, is the way it's presented in GoT. Magic comes and goes in the world, or at least the world of the Seven Kingdoms. It intrudes and disrupts. This can mean different things, and matters can be handled in different ways, both by authors and by the characters they create. I'd say that your assertion is true in the former case but false in the latter.
  8. Thanks very much to the OP. This is a first-rate thread, my current favorite. Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call B.S. I'd say that the article brings up some good points that are either missed entirely or undervalued In the other criticism I've read of GoT. Nevertheless, the article has some weak points. The show runners dropped the ball badly. One might say that Daenerys Targaryen destroyed Kings Landing, but D & D destroyed Westeros. Theirs was the greater sin. Your point about a would-be ruler not even knowing who's running several kingdoms is well taken. I'd go further. I can't disentangle various characters, their desires, their strengths and weaknesses...from all the general nonsense that infected the show in the later seasons. For example, I have some problems accepting mad Dany, because the theory doesn't explain how Dany became such a moron. Perhaps there is some kind of brain disease going around. Her advisers became morons before she did, and they spread the infection to her. Well before she started losing loved-ones, the The Imp Who Used To Be Intelligent and the Jackass Also Known As Spider were exhibiting total incompetence. They told her that the lords of Westeros would favor her over Cersei. Unfortunately, they did not make even a decent attempt to contact most of the lords of Westeros. The Mother of Dragons at least eventually gets around to asking who controls the Stormlands. It appears that the question never even occurred to anyone else. A large part of the problem can be traced to Cersei Lannister's ascension to the throne. The whole business is totally bogus. As at least a few posters pointed out a long time ago, in a well-written story, the woman would not have lived for a week after what she did. The idea that she would be able to gain and maintain power is ludicrous. Once the show runners put the baloney of Queen Cersei in place, a lot of other bunk follows. We have, for example, a group of lords who are so ignorant that they haven't even heard of the Field of Fire. They go marching out in the open across an entire continent, confident that Ser Creep of the Torture Chamber has designed a great (though inadequately tested) anti-dragon weapon. They attack this cardboard castle defended by wimps, so the battle can take place off camera. Also, the show runners have transformed what was once the seat of a major house, and thus a fair sized city, into a military garrison manned entirely by bachelors. This whole sad business goes on and on. It is easy, of course, to provide lots of example of how the Westerosi just suddenly forgot or chose to ignore the most important elements of their culture, history, and traditions. For the present, however, this post is long enough.
  9. Yeah, this gets to the point pretty well. There's so much dumb stuff going on, why even try to rationalize the dumb bell stuff? This cartoon pirate guy pops up out of the sea and challenges the Kingslayer to a duel. Now, that's just exactly what a cartoon pirate guy would do in this situation, right? I mean, he hears a city dying, there's no way he'd try to save his own life or anything rational like that. He has to challenge the Kingslayer to kill him, because the great Euron is a king. It's clear he's a king because he fucked the queen. Man, I really admire some of these actors. They can often do a good job with thoroughly off-the-wall material and stupid dialogue. Okay, so let's go ahead and look at the dumb bell stuff for the hell of it. According to the "plan" (If you insist on honoring it with that name), Jaime would have to get Cersei to agree to escape. Of course, Cersei has made it clear that she thinks she is going to win and that Jaime is a traitor. Somehow, Jaime convinces Cersei to get the hell out of KL Dodge. They stroll past her two gunslinger cohorts (the creep and the Thing), who make no objection to being left behind. The two Lannisters then inform the bell ringer(s) to ring the bell(s), and they head for the hills. Upon hearing this "plan," Jaime, who has a few functioning brain cells left, objects that sailing a skiff through the pirate fleet parked outside Dodge City wouldn't be a good idea. Tyrion, who used to be able to think, informs him that the pirate fleet won't be there anymore. So we have brilliant tactics: Jaime and Cersei will be able to sail freely out of the bay and head to Esos, because Dany's attack will have destroyed the fleet. This will prevent Dany's attack and save the city. Clearly, someone has bats in the belfry.
  10. I don't know. The main takeaway from the Dany scenes is similar to that for a lot of other characters. Things started out well with HBO's GoT. They went down hill badly.
  11. I agree that the progression was butchered, but I have a somewhat different take on the matter. Perhaps this has been covered elsewhere (in this thread or others). If so, I apologize for missing the relevant post(s). I try to read things carefully, but there is a hell of a lot of Dany material to read. I can't disentangle show Dany from so much of what I see as the nonsense that has infested the whole show for the last few seasons. In truth, I don't think she should be so disentangled. My problems with her are similar to problems with many other characters. The writers didn't give us character development; they gave us character assassination. Dany went mad? Okay, but exactly how did Dany become a moron? Was it similar to the brain damage somehow suffered by her advisers? Was it because so many of the events she was witnessing were not just distressing, but also totally bogus? I have posted this elsewhere. I thought it worthwhile to repeat it here. Daenerys Targaryen's final speech: Unsullied! It is amazing to see so many of you! You were mostly wiped out up at Winterfell. Your bodies were burned on immense pyres, using wood that the North could not afford to waste. Now, rank upon rank, you stand before me in the capital. In Esos, I told you that you were free men, able to choose your own path. You have just seen me slaughter countless people needlessly. I set fire to an entire city while you were in it, so I know you still love me. Now, we will set forth on great conquests, marching through winter lands without food, smashing other lands, some of which have already pledged fealty to me. Also, I and my advisers will totally forget that we will be sailing blind into seas totally controlled by our enemies. We will forget that twice a dragon has been knocked out of the skies by a weapon designed by a creep whose engineering credentials consisted mostly in a love of human vivisection. I have forgotten this despite the fact that on one occasion I was riding the dragon in question. It's clear that we are invincible. Was there ever, could there ever be, such a ridiculously stupid wack job as I have become? Obviously, the guys who write this stuff for me believe this. They also think all the viewers of this miserable television series will believe it. I assure you that, at least in regard to that last part, they are quite wrong.
  12. Parwan Nays

    Glad that’s over.

    Yeah, real good stuff. One of the main reasons I stuck with HBO's GoT was to watch commentaries like this with full appreciation.
  13. Parwan Nays

    This ending is nothing but Bitter

    I agree that the small council was more than a little bit cheesy. Also, the meeting of the lords and ladies, dispensing justice and choosing a wise new ruler, was a pretty sappy affair. I was horribly disappointed. Kept expecting the group to break out in the Westerosi version of Kumbaya. Never happened. Can't imagine why.
  14. Parwan Nays

    This ending is nothing but Bitter

    It is winter. If you’ve paid attention to the story, you may have heard about winter and its effects. After the horror stories of the past few years, is anyone in the realm even half-way prepared for winter? Is there enough food? Are the walls and roofs in decent repair? Is there enough firewood? Do we currently have available to us the man power and draft animal power needed to correct deficiencies in these areas? Some thoughts— In Kings Landing some time ago, that great humanitarian Lord Baelish had something like this to say:: “We have enough food for 5 years. If the winter lasts longer than 5 years, we’ll have fewer peasants.” Given the actions of many lords and ladies, including some fan favorites, the situation is undoubtedly now worse. In the Reach, those great heroes Bron, Jaime, Lord Tarly and his son…stole all of the peasants’ grain. Then Daenerys Targaryen burned a very large number of the wagons carrying the grain. In Dorne, the answers to the above questions may be in the affirmative. Everywhere else, the answers will vary from “maybe,” to “no,” to “hell no,” to “you can’t be serious.” Will there be widespread, probably massive starvation, many deaths due to freezing, etc.? Certainly. Bittersweet ending? I don’t think so.
  15. Parwan Nays

    Who was Daenerys turned into?

    Unsullied! It is amazing to see so many of you! You were mostly wiped out up at Winterfell. Your bodies were burned on immense pyres, using wood that the North could not afford to waste. Now, rank upon rank, you stand before me in the capital. In Esos, I told you that you were free men, able to choose your own path. You have just seen me slaughter countless people needlessly. I set fire to an entire city while you were in it, so I know you still love me. Now, we will set forth on great conquests, marching through winter lands without food, smashing other lands, some of which have already pledged fealty to me. Also, I and my advisers will totally forget that we will be sailing blind into seas totally controlled by our enemies. We will forget that twice a dragon has been knocked out of the skies by a weapon designed by a creep whose engineering credentials consisted mostly in a love of human vivisection. I have forgotten this despite the fact that on one occasion I was riding the dragon in question. It's clear that we are invincible. Was there ever, could there ever be, such a ridiculously stupid wack job as I have become? Obviously, the guys who write this stuff for me believe this. They also think all the viewers of this miserable television series will believe it. I assure you that, at least in regard to that last part, they are quite wrong.
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