Alexis-something-Rose

Knights usually wear gilded spurs. Sansa mentions gilded spurs at Joff's tourney (Sansa I, ACoK). Joff is given silver spurs by Addam Marbrand, the silver is likely because Joff is not a knight yet. Ser Arys Oakheart wears golden spurs in the Queenmaker, AFfC 21. And Daario Naharis is only a sellsword, not fit to buckle on the golden spurs of even a landed knight. (Dany VII, ADwD 43) He did not wait for Lord Bracken to reply but touched Honor lightly with his golden spurs and trotted off. (Jaime I, ADwD 48) I will knight them myself when they are worthy, and give them each a horse and golden spurs. (The Queensguard, ADwD 55) Rickard Stark's mother was a Locke of Oldcastle. The two Lockes we have in the story, Ser Mallador with the NW and Ser Donnem who dies at the Red Wedding were both knights. You can draw your own conclusion from this, although people seem to resist the possibility that Rickard Stark might have been a knight in his own right.

I don't know. If I'm Robert (and by that I mean Jon Arryn), I want to keep my vassals in the crownlands happy. Plus there was a Manly Stokeworth who was the commander of King's Landing City Watch right before Janos Slynt. While we don't know what he was to Tanda and her daughters, it's possible that he is the reason they get to stay in the Red Keep for however long they want.

I'm pretty sure I didn't say they came there only after his death, or I didn't explain myself properly, which happens frequently because you're supposed to read my thoughts (it's just a joke btw). I think Rhaegar and Lyanna stopped there on their up the Prince's Pass. I don't think they were there for a lengthy period of time. Maybe they found out Lyanna was pregnant while they were there, so he named it the ToJ I don't necessarily disagree with you here, but Lyanna has been missing and three KG are also missing. Wouldn't Ned think they are with her? And if the missing KG were at Storm's End with Mace Tyrell, then it would be common knowledge that they are there, no? Ned expecting them to be on the Trident with Rhaegar makes sense. Ned expecting to find them in KL with Aerys makes sense. Ned expecting them with Viserys because their vows compel them to be with him makes sense. Ned expecting them to be with Mace Tyrell at Storm's End after the Sack of KL doesn't a whole lot of sense, imo. This is why I think one of the 3 KG might have been in the vicinity of SE shortly after the Trident. I think the answer to the riddle goes through Ethan Glover. That's probably the whole reason he was kept alive. If I misunderstood what you're saying, sorry. Raging headache.

Except that in the case of Starfall, whatever they know there, has never come out as far as we know. But I'm not thinking about Starfall or that Lyanna gave birth there. I think she gave birth where she was found and where she died, just as we have been told. The castle I'm thinking of is Griffin's Roost, and how the group might have stayed during the latter part of the war. Lyanna and the KG can leave by that hidden cove beneath the crag after the news of Rhaegar's death on the Trident arrives. They can ask Paxter Redwyne for a ship to sail them down to Dorne. The ship drops them off near the Wyl and they can continue on their way to the Prince's Pass, and then down to Starfall, but they can't move on from the ToJ because Lyanna has her baby, then everything goes downhill from there. While I think that it's obvious why Ned thought the KG were with Viserys, because he would be their new king. I think it's a little less obvious why he thought he would find them at the siege of Storm's End, a place where they are not needed. So I think it's possible that Ned thought that the KG were at Storm's End because one of them was seen there soon after Rhaegar's death. I think that there was a contingency plan that Rhaegar had in place if he died during the war. I think that's the whole reason he left 3 KG behind, as opposed to just one. Elia also tries to leave KL after the Battle of the Trident. If Rhaegar had come back victorious from the Trident, he talked about making changes, so he we know he was making plans for the future. I don't think he forgot to make plans for his wife (or wives if he had married Lyanna) and his children. Anyway . . . only the George can answer these questions.

While I think we can take at face value that Lyanna did die at the ToJ, I agree that the logistics are off the wall. Is there a sept near the ToJ where Ned can send for silent sisters. Howland is with him. Maybe the crannogmen have a different way to handle the dead. But yeah, the logistics for this are all over the place, including Ned taking his sister's body all the way down to Starfall. I guess the Daynes were fine with Arthur's body not being returned to the family as long as they got Dawn back. (I know it's a cynical view) In any case, my personal gripe is with the length of time Lyanna spent at the ToJ. I don't think she and Rhaegar were there the whole time. I don't think he left her there either. The ToJ isn't just in the middle of nowhere, there's a whole issue with food supplies and the scarcity of water. I'm not sure it's a coincidence that Rhaegar's biggest fan happens to have a castle with a built-in escape route.

There's nothing that I could find in Sansa's chapter of the tourney. But there's this in the next one, day 2 of the tourney. I think it's the closest to what you describe. The tilt between Jaime and the Hound in Ned VII, AGoT 30. The Hound had managed to stay in his saddle. He jerked his mount around hard and rode back to the lists for the second pass. Jaime Lannister tossed down his broken lance and snatched up a fresh one, jesting with his squire. The Hound spurred forward at a hard gallop. Lannister rode to meet him. This time, when Jaime shifted his seat, Sandor Clegane shifted with him. Both lances exploded, and by the time the splinters had settled, a riderless blood bay was trotting off in search of grass while Ser Jaime Lannister rolled in the dirt, golden and dented. Sansa said, "I know the Hound would win."

I personally don't think they were at Starfall at all. I think the KG and Lyanna were headed there, though, after the news of Rhaegar's death came down. I think they were at the castle of some Rhaegar supporter (and I can think of three, although one of them is a tad too far and we have no idea the exact location of the other). The group would have left because they really didn't have a choice in the matter anymore. But Lyanna was pregnant, and babies come when they want to come. I have a very difficult time believing that they stayed for months at a watchtower, or that Rhaegar and Lyanna were holed up there for the entire time that they were missing, then he leaves her there while she's pregnant? This is a guy who is allegedly in love with the woman he is with, who would essentially be having his love child, and this third child that he feels is important to a prophecy, but he leaves her in a tower that has not served in almost 100 years. If Ned managed to pull down the tower, it's because it wasn't the most solid thing to begin with. I do think the group was at Starfall when Ser Gerold found them. And I think that the original plans changed when they found out Lyanna was pregnant, just like they changed when Elia ended up in KL with the children. What if the KG's orders weren't just about Lyanna? What if they were also about Elia? Elia tried to leave KL after the BotT and head to Dragonstone, but Aerys didn't let her. What if she was supposed to take the children and join Lyanna and the KG if the battle was lost? I have a hard time imagining the KG sitting around at the ToJ, waiting for their enemies to find them.

All of this assumes that the KG spent the whole of the war in isolation at an old, possibly crumbling, watchtower. I personally don't think they were at the tower for all that long. And as far ravens go, they have to be trained to fly from one place the other.

Excellent! I knew there was something off. Thanks!

Ned never went to Gulltown. He crossed through the mountains to the Fingers and took a boat there get him through the Bite and to White Harbor. It's in the first Davos chapter in ADwD. So Robert can take a ship from Gulltown in the winter all the way down to Storm's End and Shipbreaker Bay, but Ned can't travel from the Bloody Gate to Gulltown and take a ship from there Gulltown to Maidenpool and then ride to his brother's wedding?

I'm on the app, and while I get that it's semi-canon, it still states that Ned and Jon Arryn did go to Riverrun before heading down to Stoney Sept.

About Ned coming down from the north with his army during Robert's Rebellion. Wouldn't he also have needed the Twins to cross to the other side of the Green Fork to reach Riverrun since that was presumably his first stop before going to find Robert at Stoney Sept?

And all those loyalists will either have died during the Sack or bent the knee. Dorne played with the idea of supporting Viserys, made a marriage pact, then left Viserys to twist in the wind. Their support for Viserys or Dany has nothing to do with them and everything to do with what they can give them. I doubt Doran would have sent Quentyn to Meereen to fetch back Dany if she hadn't hatched herself three dragons. Willem Darry might have stayed in touch with his House, maybe he tried to pass messages through his House. But his House was finished. They were ground down by Robert. They lost a lot of capital when the Targaryen's fell. And who can they trust. The realm is under a brand new anti-Targaryen regime. Well, it would be sweet of Mathis Rowan to send money to the Targlings, but Viserys was 22 years old when he died. By that time he had been exiled for 13-14 years. The loyalists had time to at the very least make sure he knew that he had their support. But the reality is that they chose to bend the knee rather than continue fighting for him. Then they seem to have forgotten all about him. Look at what's going on in the north and all the plots the northmen are part of to get rid of Roose Bolton and install the Starks back in Winterfell. They are marching in abysmal conditions with people they don't care about, they are inside Winterfell plotting, they are at the Wall. And sure, the north is isolated from the rest of the realm and it's a small scale operation compared to Robert's Rebellion, but that's what loyalists do, they continue to fight to set a wrong to right. The Targaryen loyalists did not continue fighting, or at least give support to the one who is their new king, because I don't think they had any interest in him. But I think the story will be entirely different with Aegon and even Jon once he is revealed.

I don't think who knew what about Viserys being named Aerys's heir ahead of Aegon matters at all, because the next logical step after the deaths of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon is to crown Viserys. The loyalists still had a king to fight for. Viserys was still there. He became the head of House Targaryen after the Sack. Did any of the loyalists travel to Dragonstone to show Rhaella and Viserys their support? Because it sure sounds like the new Targaryen king was abandoned by his loyal subjects. I think for me it really begs the question of who the loyalists were fighting for in the end on the Trident. Were they fighting for Aerys? Or were they fighting for Rhaegar? House Targaryen lost everything not when Aerys died, but when Rhaegar died. All those reluctant lords who stayed out of the war went over to the rebels when Rhaegar died. The loyalists bent the knee instead of fighting for Viserys, who was now their rightful king. And the loyalists didn't even know what the three Kingsguard at the ToJ knew when they chose to lay down their arms and take Robert as their new king. One of the loyalists Houses, House Darry, keeps portraits of the Targaryen kings, from Aegon the Conqueror all the way down to Aerys II Targaryen, but no portrait of their young King Viserys III Targaryen? Why is that? He was their rightful king after all. That tells me everything I need to know about Aerys's idea to bypass Aegon as his heir and name Viserys instead. The loyalists didn't seem to give a rat's ass about Viserys or what happened to him.

Pretty Pig has likely been butchered for bacon. About Crunch Only if you trust Kasporio. Plumm's not-so-cunning second-in-command claimed that three Yunkish slave-catchers were prowling through the camps, asking after a pair of escaped dwarfs. One of them was carrying a tall spear with a dog's head impaled upon it's point, the way Kaspo told it. (Tyrion XII, ADwD 66) It's possible the dog is dead. I doubt we will get real confirmation either way. With Tyrion and Penny escaping, the Yellow Whale dying, his little treasures would all have been killed as well. It's possible Pretty and Crunch were killed in lieu of Penny and Tyrion. Although I'm sure they would have been killed either way.

All 4? I think it's doubtful. Willamen is a maester, so his vows wouldn't allow him to hold lands. Perwyn is the oldest, so if there's a claim, it would come from him, not his younger siblings.

That was the way of the cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. (The Prophet, AFfC 1) This is the only other time the term bed of blood is used in the text. Lyanna was in her bed of blood when Ned found her.

No harm, no foul

Really? All my expectations of infants have now been dashed. Do I think Ned told Jon he was born in Dorne? No. I don't. I'm not even clear whether Jon thinks his mother is alive or dead. He seems to think that she didn't want him, though. Whether this is his own idea or something he was told remains to be seen. I think Jon knows he wasn't born in the north. Did Ned tell him he was born somewhere in the riverlands? I think as far as locations go, the riverlands would make sense since Ned would have been in there until right after the BotT. Anyway. It doesn't matter. I was just curious to see what the reply would be. Timeline talk is tedious. The AGoT timeline is a dumpster fire, especially when Jon's birth is plugged into it.

Does Jon even know where he was born? There is nothing in his thoughts about it. When he thinks about the red mountains of Dorne, he doesn't think of it as the place he was born, but as one of the places he wants to see, but won't be able to because he will be a man of the NW.

No, it's not. Her body could have easily been dragged by the current into the sea. She might have fed the fishes near the Arbor for all we know. About Jon's birth. The Battle of the Bells was in early 283 AC. Unless Lyanna gave birth prematurely or Ned decided to fudge up dates by a month or so (which is entirely possible), Jon couldn't have been born earlier than October since Catelyn says that she carried Robb to full term. That would put Dany's own birth either in June or July. And that's if the BotB took place in January.

Whatever the truth is, everyone in story believes that Jon is younger than Robb. Ned talks about dishonoring Catelyn, which has been mentioned before. Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body . . . and the look on her face as she slit the old man's throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he'd left Jon's mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night's Watch. (Jon VI, ASoS 48) There are different reasons Jon could be younger. For one, Rhaegar could have decided that Lyanna was too young. Elia's last birth left her unable to have anymore children. So maybe there's caution there. In FaB, Jaehaerys married Alysanne, but the marriage was not consummated because he felt she was too young for that. Something similar could have happened with Lyanna. We can debate this for as long as we want. Until a book comes out to debunk what Jon and Catelyn know / were told. Until some character comes out and says that Ned lied about when Jon was born, Jon is younger than Robb.

I have a candidate for who Wylla might be. Something was dropped in AFfC about Garin's mother. Garin was Arianne's milk brother. His mother was Arianne's wet nurse and she was a midwife as well. By the time 283 AC rolls around, Arianne is already some 7 years old.

No. It was a double wedding. Cat and Lysa married the same day. And one day fifteen years ago, this second father had become a brother as well, as he and Ned stood together in the sept at Riverrun to wed two sisters, the daughters of Lord Hoster. (Catelyn I, AGoT 2) The wedding happened after the Battle of the Bells.

Jon Connington has just resurfaced in the story and with a POV to boot, so I imagine that if there was a wedding, he might have been there to witness it. So it's not just Howland Reed who knows things. I think different people have different pieces of the story. This whole marriage situation reminds me a lot of Robb's will. Robb decided to name Jon his heir. As king he could erase Jon's bastardy and make him a Stark. And as it stands right now in the story, Jon has an older brother who happens to be with Jon Connington, and who can do the exact same thing that Robb did. Aegon can recognize him as his trueborn half-brother if Lyanna and Rhaegar were indeed married or he can decide to legitimize him. ETA - At the end of the day, it's all about perception. Joffrey was a bastard sitting the Iron Throne and now it's Tommen, and they all knew. Pycelle knew. Littlefinger knew. Varys knew. Stannis found out. Olenna believes the letter, Margaery hints she knows. Kevan Lannister practically confirmed that what Stannis said was true. It didn't stop Mace Tyrell from marrying his daughter off to both Joff and Tommen, did it? If Rhaegar was married to Lyanna, we know he was intent on making changes once he came back from the Trident. He could have forced the High Septon into accepting the marriage.