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Lady Dacey

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Everything posted by Lady Dacey

  1. YI don't understand why most posters seem to be operating with a binary reasoning that oposes "forgiveness" and "revenge" as a dicotomic choice. Asoiaf is way way above that. Please. Human interaction is complex. I wanted to point out a few things. Fist, I disagree with the OP in the statement "the only way it can work is to let the past go" when it comes to people working together to survive the threat of the Others. I mean yeah, of course I agree fighting a supernatural force must be a joint venture of the intire humanity - but I don't think people have to forgive each other to work together. People are capable of reason and strategy, and it's possible to make common cause with an enemy to face a bigger threat without "putting the past behind". Alliances can be momentary, tactic. And that's ok (maybe reading "On Contradiction and Practice" by Mao Zedong when I was nineteen left too strong an impression on me). Another thing I feel like I have to dispute is this notion that Arya is driven only by revenge and "too far gone" or "incapable of anything else". That is ludicrous. There are many arguments to be had around this subject, but I don't want to derail the OP. I'll just say that it is canon, it has been published and read by all of us how she comes to take the Hound away from her list after being his captive for a while - that is, we have textual proof that she can change her mind about the people on her list. That sets a precedent and informs us on her principles.
  2. That was an interesting read! Thank you for putting the time and effort to bring this theory to life in a concise and well written text. It's tenuous at best, but I would like it if it were true.
  3. Hey there. I'm really quite confused by your posts... I mean I absolutely agree with the first underlined part and I believe most people in western countries in the 21st century do too. I hope so at least. It's the very common ground of the modern state, that three powers and etcetera. So I agree. But then there is this bolded part I truly don't understand. I mean, in your opinion, how are the Stars any different than their contemporary great houses in Westeros? I'm intrigued. Then there is the second underlined part which makes me wonder: who are you talking about? Seems to me anyone who "completely buys into chivalric romanticism" should not be taken seriously, doesn't matter what it is about. You really think that is the authour's intention? I see how this could be some reader's interpretation, but those are (very) disputable. Even if I were interested in a few characters, I wouldn't read books that I feel 'advocate' stuff like that, for real.
  4. That is just plain wrong (and the whole point of the second article I brought up you obviously haven't read). You are making a lot of completely unfounded affirmations about how inheritance of phenotypes works in humans (they are really disturbing too, but also so far removed from reason it's easier not to be so appalled). It's never really clear in your comments when you are expressing your views on inheritance in the asoiaf universe or in the real world (read: genetics). I find that disconcerting because of the eugenic content in the statements you make, which, because I feel like I should be generous on the grounds that this is an online forum, I will call out as borderline racist.
  5. Are you beeing sarcastic? I'm asking for real because it's difficult to pick up sarcasm in written speech, specially for non natives such as myself.
  6. Not really sure here, but if I remember correctely, most careful historical accounts now agree Juana I de Castilla was probably never mad at all, but locked away under such pretense by her father and later by her son so that they could wield the power that was nominally hers.
  7. You understood it correctly. Lord Varys really didn't.
  8. Deformed? no... It’s true, deformities like lazy eyes and extra fingers don't arise because incest (though I loved the idea of a lazy eyed Myrcella). If Martin indeed means to have a point in flashing so much incest in our faces, and I think he does, it could be something he brings from his own values and agenda. It doesn’t seem to me to be a case of personal, private values, but ideological ones. What I mean is the author is not concerned with the morality of fucking a sibling, but with the ethical problems that arise from keeping power concentrated – incest serving to epitomize the pinnacle of such corrupt power structures. It is no coincidence that the children of Tywin Lannisters are the ones who develop an incestuous relationship outside of the Targearyan family tree. And while there are no deformities to be seen, I think a very strong case could be made for some inbreeding depression fantasy-style in Lannister lineage because of this union.
  9. Ever so sensible, you are. Astute. I know I can count on to get to the point of an argument. Even if new discoveries in the field of human genomics don’t carry any plot relevance (and I don’t really think they do) the historical consequences of inbreeding certainly do. We know Martin has studied European history with a passion and borrows heavily from it to write his fantasy. Power structures. The ones that exist in Westeros circa 300 AC, where did they come from, how to they perpetrate, who do they benefit? The last question is the most explosive one isn't it? What is the point of keeping among equals?
  10. Hey everybody, thanks for taking an interest in this topic and participating in some healthy (and not so healthy) discussion. I hadn't anticipated it, but I had to be completely off line for over a week so I couldn't respond earlier. Well I'm here now and I feel like saying a few things. This is something to keep in mind at all times, most definitely! Inheritance of physiological traits and characteristics in the world of asoiaf does not follow the rules we know in the real world - which are determined by genetics. That's a plain fact, right? I hope we all agree on that at least. I'm going off a tangent here, but I have seen discussions about "skinchanging genes" and "dragon-riding genes", but I must admit can't stomach such reasoning. Magic is magic and, even if it can be inherited or passed down through generations, it clearly isn't genetic, it isn't in the makeup of the body's biochemical apparatus. I recognize the line is blurry, but this is fantasy and not sci-fi. Supernatural abilities are a thing for real.
  11. @kissdbyfire TL;DR: Ygritte was right of course
  12. I added it to the original post as an edit. Will come back later. The second one is a really fascinating read.
  13. How common is incest, and what are its consequences in the human population? I thought maybe our little community would like to peek at these two recent scientific publications on the subject. These are quite scienc-y (it's solid epidemiological research published in one of the most prestigious journals there are) but I believe the results and discussion sections in each of the articles is approachable even to those who aren't trained on a science background. Extreme inbreeding in a European ancestry sample from the contemporary UK population: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-11724-6 Associations of autozygosity with a broad range of human phenotypes: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12283-6 This of course only deals with incest resulting in children (viable offspring). To sum it up: in the first study the researchers found that the genomes of 1/3,652 people born in the United Kingdom between 1938 and 1967 of european ancestry show extreme inbreeding (unions between full siblings, a parent and a child, a grandparent and a grandchild). Due to many factors that have to do mostly with biases on the sample itself but also some to do with the methodology used to define what ‘inbreeding’ is (this is discussed in the article) this number is most likely an underestimation. In the second study, with a much larger and more diverse sample (so much less biases) inbreeding is significantly associated with deleterious changes in 32 out of 100 traits analysed for first- and second-degree relatives, which means inbreeding depression is a real thing between humans.
  14. You are assuming each altar is placed on a continuous wall, one of the faces of the seven-sided polygon building. If each altar occupies a vertex instead, like on the image @Narsil4 has provided: problem solved!
  15. YES we are on the same page (as usual?) oh, maturity! But also being (forcibly) away from his sister lover for a while and all that. I think it is very significant that Jaime never so much as attempts to follow Tywin and Cersei when they leave him behind. ironic, isn't it? George RR Martin sure loves his inversions, so much so they almost become a trope within the work itself - characters are constantly not achieving what they first stated they meant to achieve, and then getting what they wanted backwards.
  16. Let's! You are too kind. Thanks! me too I'm not sure at all. But let's try and see where we get. The womb is not frightening per se, it is supposed to be safe and cushioned and dark and watery. As the time passes and the fetus grows so does the discomfort. The utherus can't be home forever, and everyone from Freud to Michel Odent agree that being born must be a traumatic experience for the newborn. To be separated, cut off. To be welcomed in the outside world. It is scary, but it is the only way forward. I don't think a baby is comfortable at all during the very last weeks of pregnancy (the mother certainly isn't). The womb becomes too small, too tight. It is not the place the baby wants to be in, but it doesn't know what else there is once it's not inside anymore. Penty scary, if you ask me. You know, labour actually kickstarts with chemicals the fetus produces in his lungs when it fully matures. It's not the mom-vessel that decides the time has come to push the baby out, it's the fetus itself that becomes ready to leave the womb and initiates cascade of recations that culminate in birth (long, painful hours/days later). Even though it has no way of knowing what awaits outside, the baby is the one to actively leave. Doom is outside. Doom is us, our imperfect, complex, failing world (it's 2019 and Bolsonaro rules my country while Trump rules yours, I think we are far worse off than when we first met, my friend, sadly, but I keep fighting back). Doom for Jaime is direwolves, hungry for revenge (but I hope he can escape those). Doom is, in a way, the nihilistic take on the future. Jaime is in inhabiting his own subcountious in this dream, he is facing his shadows, and he is abandoning the approach he'd so far taken to life - the pragmatic, maybe even nihilistic one, where he pretented, to himself too, not to care about his faults of character - it's most obviously his encounter with Brienne that ticks the change within. oh, and nothing is predestined. Ever. I think. Isn't GRRM, like, the best? I've never come across such well depicted dreams in literature before. He portrays the feeling of dreaming splendidly. What, really? I swear to you I had never taken it like that and now I just feel stupid for missing the obvious. Because Jaime states he did not recognize the place, I took it to mean it wasn't Casterly Rock. But I see I'm probably wrong in that assumption, actually, because things are more than one thing at once. Any way, so gald you're here, so glad to be here!
  17. Hey I'm excited! Do tag me when you post your work please
  18. It has. There are people who are awere of the boys' true identities. We don't know exactly how, but the Liddle Bran meets in the cave tells him that Ramsey Bolton is paying for information on the real scaped Stark boys. Ramsey is not stupid and is well awere that Bran and Rickon are pieces still moving and an that they represent enourmous threat to him if they ever show up. So he is trying to quietly locate the Starks, but apparently he is not as quiet as he should have been, and others, such as this Liddle himself, might already know the corpses Theon exhibited didn't belong to Bran and Rickon. So goes the quote: The Liddle took out a knife and whittled at a stick. "When there was a Stark in Winterfell, a maiden girl could walk the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested, and travelers could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and holdfast. But the nights are colder now, and doors are closed. There's squids in the wolfswood, and flayed men ride the kingsroad asking after strangers." The Reeds exchanged a look. "Flayed men?" said Jojen. "The Bastard's boys, aye. He was dead, but now he's not. And paying good silver for wolfskins, a man hears, and maybe gold for word of certain other walking dead." He looked at Bran when he said that, and at Summer stretched out beside him. ASOS Bran II Besides, Maester Luwin had always known Bran had not been killed: Gently, they eased Luwin onto his back. He had grey eyes and grey hair, and once his robes had been grey as well, but they were darker now where the blood had soaked through. "Bran," he said softly when he saw him sitting tall on Hodor's back. "And Rickon too." He smiled. "The gods are good. I knew . . ." "Knew?" said Bran uncertainly. "The legs, I could tell . . . the clothes fit, but the muscles in his legs . . . poor lad . . ." He coughed, and blood came up from inside him. "You vanished . . . in the woods . . . how, though?" ACOK Bran VII This is less likely, but it's not impossible that Luwin also confided in some of the Winterfell men that it wasn't Bran at all. Between the killing of the miller's boys and the sack of Winterfell there might have been comings and goings, and word got out.
  19. I don’t find it so very likely. I might be very wrong, but the way I see it if Mance had always had the political ability to negotiate his way south with the northern lords there would be no point to Jon’s arc. Umber’s words to Stannis stating their thirst for revenge don’t strike me as a ruse because I identify cultural biases that arise from ethnocentric world views as one of the things the author is actively trying and succeeding to depict. If it were all a ruse, well, I’ll be disappointed - what is there to overcome if not the mutual prejudice? In the thread @kissdbyfire provided the link for, the one where it’s proposed the hooded man is a Liddle, there is an argument that the clans might be aligned with the free folk. I’m not sure I’d go as far as say they are working together, but I can see the clans having a more sympathetic view on “wildlings” than proper aristocratic lords like the Umber and the Karstarks. Mance had been a man of the Night’s Watch and as a leader of the free folk he was convinced that to go south of the Wall he’d have to fight his way through. Mance is not obtuse, I don’t think he’d miscalculate that. What changes things radically is the arrival of Jon Snow: he is a natural son to Eddard Stark and becomes the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, therefore he has political leverage, and he is a man with a personal interest in bringing every human being together in the face of the supernatural threat that looms north of the Wall. Things do change. And Mance is not stupid. Going back to the original meaning of this thread and trying to tie this back to the hooded man, it is interesting that Rowan only calls Theon kinslayer after the mysterious encounter he has with the HM. I had never noticed that before it was brought up here. I propose we could indeed have a Mance-Umber alliance, or maybe a general Mance-‘Stark loyalists’ / Mance-‘anti-Bolton’ alliance through the spearwives. For all we know they’ve been having sex with many of the men around Winterfell, high-raking and low-ranking men, and that is a great means to gather information on who is who and make connections. Rowan and the hooded man, whoever he is (I do not buy Theon Durden for a second), might have connected in more ways than one. Mance could’ve/should’ve forged new alliances while in Winterfell.
  20. “Infiltrated” is too strong a word. I propose she never hid who she was in the first place... Mance and the other women in her company must have been okay with a northern common woman being part of the crew. I take it wasn’t that easy to find six young and pretty spearwives willing to volunteer to go with Mance retrieve Arya, so Edd ended up with a mixed bunch of young and old, pretty and ugly, free folk and northern.
  21. I really like this parallelism, with Brienne reenacting what Jaime just said, because it brings to mind a second parallel that is touched upon in this dream: I find it telling that Brienne succedes to get the sword she asks for, because of the last word she utters when almost haging in the riverlands, there might be a conection there. She asks for a sword and gets one and fights along Jaime. Am I being to hopeful? The hollow hill is a good connection. Direwolves too, of course. And these are not mutually exclusive by any means. No bears, no lions, but direwolves might be Jaime Lannister's doom. So this got me thinking about "doom" and I was searching the books for the word outside of the "doom of Valyria" use, and it's actually scarce. I did find this quote by Stannis: "Only Renly could vex me so with a piece of fruit. He brought his doom on himself with his treason, but I did love him, Davos. I know that now. I swear, I will go to my grave thinking of my brother's peach." A Clash of Kings, Davos II This really stregthens my earlier point about shadows on a psychoanalytical sense. Renly was killed by Stannis' shadow and Staniss refers to this as Renly's doom. In the recent topic "The untold truth of Robert Strong" by the three-eyed monkey I wrote: I am *mindblown*. I had never thought of that, but it does tie so well. Stannis killing Renly “in a dream”, Renly who is Robert-come-again, Robert who was always the older brother that Stannis resented so very much. The shadow killing Renly is in a way a image of Stannis’s (jungian) shadows, it’s him enacting his repressed desires in his dreams. How did I ever miss that? I am tickling to go back to the books looking for shadows all over again with that in mind.
  22. I'm very excited to be part of a conversation hosted by you again, my friend! As is always seems to be the case, I'm half asleep right now, so I won't be long. Noted! But I will mention the 2nd to start my first draft... Thing is, in his second dream Jaime comes face to face with his mother. When first reading the sequence you propose we analyse, completely unspoiled of what was to come, I took the dark watery cave that is "his place" as metaphorical womb. The imagery and themes just screamed "rebirth" at me from the get go. Jaime meeting his mom in the next dream points in that same direction, so when I got to that I felt somewhat validated in my beliefs. I don't take is as either conviction or comfort, more like a challange. Of course Jaime feels very disquieted when he gets such an answer, but at the same time, if this terrible place is his, is doom awaiting within himself? Does that mean it is easier or harder to escape than if it were and external threat? Looking at the dream through that perspective, I find it very important the Cersei leaves. Jaime is a twin, and what more, he came into the world holding his big sister's foot, but his rebirth is all to himself. Cersei leaves and he doesn't make to follow at all. Instead he goes the other way, towards doom, facing his shadows. We have recently had a very interesting conversation on a topic by the @three-eyed monkey where we briefly looked into Stannis' shadow with Joungian eyes, which is very fitting here too. Jaime starts to come to terms with his shadows in this dream. Acknowledging is always the first step. I think this is the most important of the many meanings the dream most surely has.
  23. I'm really enjoying this thread! Joining in late with just a few ideas from the top of my head... Might be that the hooded man knows Theon never killed Bran and Rickon Stark, but the miller's boys, and might be he knows one or both of the miller's boy's might actually be Theon's. I'm not convinced, but I've seen some people suggest it. I don't think it's unreasonable, but it's unlikely... I'd like to propose a new take on Rowan-is-a-northener theory. I agree there is very convincing textual evidence that she isn't from the free folk. Now I'm thinking that Edd went to fetch women from Mole's Town and maybe the company of six he eventually assembled was never spearwife-only? I remember when Jon goes to Mole's Town before the first wildling charge in asos there is a whore who joins Castle Black's defenses, I think her name was Jal? I'm not sure. I bring this up because maybe the women Edd Tolled recruited for the mission was from the very start a mixed-company of wildling spearwives and fierce northern woman, most likely whores, willing to participate. What do you think? This is my favourite argument for Hallis Mollen as the hooded man!
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