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  1. Jon_Stargaryen


    Where does the term Planetos com from? I just find it odd, seeing as they refer to their world [or things dealing with the surface of their world] as earth. It just seems odd to me.
  2. Jon_Stargaryen

    Lord Eddard Stark's mistakes

    After re-reading AGoT, I notice for the first time that it was actually Renly who first foreshadowed Littlefinger's betrayal: Taken in the context of the scene, this is an indication that,had Tyrion been in attendance, he would have placed his wager on Jaime. He would only be certain of this if there were some sort of pattern of Tyrion betting on Jaime, above all others. Ned totally missed this. (though I did too the first time)
  3. Jon_Stargaryen

    Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

    People being worse than Robert doesn't mean that he isn't a garbage human being. There are plenty of people worse than Tywin Lannister and Roose Bolton, but they're not garbage people themselves; it simply means that there are worse out there.
  4. Jon_Stargaryen

    Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

    Was I wrong though? Robert is a garbage human being...
  5. Jon_Stargaryen

    Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

    Robert was a piece of shit in a crown, who cost the realm thousands in gold and lives. He has almost no redeeming qualities, with the acceptation of his (former) fighting abilities.
  6. Jon_Stargaryen

    Would Balon attacking the Westerlands really change anything?

    This is actually inaccurate. Based on the numbers that Stannis was able to raise from the mountain clans, the North still had thousands more to offer. The North is large and sparsely populated, making it difficult to gather large numbers quickly. Also, the fact that their moving on as soon as Manderly's men arrive shows his sense of urgency. As an aside, he took the entire northern army with him to draw the Ironborne attention South. He also sent men to Greywater to get assistance traveling through the neck. The Freys were meant more as a means of crossing their bridge. You don't actually know this, because Tywin doesn't have a POV. We know that he returns because he learns of the attack on King's Landing. Two things. The reason why he had to sneak past the Golden Tooth is because it's a FUCKING FORTRESS!! This was part of Jon's argument against attacking the Dreadfort, and the idea of Moat Cailin: a strong castle weakly defended is still a strong castle. If I have fifty men inside and you're trying to get by, you may win eventually, but you're going to pay for it. The other point is that he wasn't trying to occupy the Westerlands. He was trying to draw Tywin back. If he takes Lannisport, he'll certainly draw Tywin back, but once he's There, ROBB WILL HAVE NOWHERE TO GO!! Just the ocean to his back and a lot of angry enemies in front of him. You're saying he was holding the North, but was he really. You could say he was, but in the same way that a valet holds you keys. You're leaving it unattended for a while, and sure he might go for a joyride, but once you return, he's going to give it up. Also, to correct another point, the ironborne were being held captive in Moat Cailin, in the sense that leaving meant certain death. That's why Theon had to ride in to get them to surrender, promising sanctuary. Both Tyrion and the author make it clear that Tywin heading to deal with Robb has more to do with Stannis' movements than it is with Robb being in the West. Storm's End is a hugely formidable castle, and should have been able to hold out much longer, as it did during Robert's Rebellion when Stannis was inside rather than outside. And both Tyrion and Tywin knew that Stannis was a methodical commander rather than a daring one, and therefore would be unlikely to leave an enemy stronghold untaken in his rear. There was also the psychological aspect, as Stannis himself explains to Davos; he could not risk being seen as having suffered a "defeat," however minor. Was Lord Tywin marching west a huge risk? Of course it was. That was why he sat at Harrenhal for so long, hoping to lure Robb into attacking him... or Stannis into committing against King's Landing. Neither of his foes would play into his hands, however. At which point he made a calculated gamble. -GRRM "Both of them." Storm's End was strong, it should have been able to hold out for half a year or more . . . time enough for his father to finish with Robb Stark. "How did this happen?" -Tyrion Robb had gone West months before Tywin left Harrnehal and after the Blackwater, with Robb still West, Tywin does nothing and we hear nothing of the lords of the Westerlands pressuring Tywin to act ergo Robb attacking the West was not as influential as he had hoped it would be. We are already chatting. When you reply to someone you engage them in a conversation. Except he does not think that is possible. Casterly Rock is too strong, and Lord Tywin too cunning by half. Aye, we might take Lannisport, but we should never keep it. The North is weaker, parts of it have been ruled by the Ironborn before and has a natural choke point (Moat Cailin) that has successfully stopped all armies from the South while there are multiple entrance into the West. As I said, Balon may not be a genius but his decision to take the North was not on a whim but on pragmatic decision making. The North not only offered less casualties to the Ironborn but offered a greater chance of success as well as the fact that with no Navy the North could not offer any retribution while, historically, the West has frequently got their revenge on the Iron Islands. What you are looking at is buzzwords and ignoring the fact that Asha was in complete agreement with her father in taking the North, she saw its value, she is arguing against Euron's plan to take the Reach as it is short term thinking. She wanted to remain in the North and is adamant that had her father lived they would still hold Moat Cailin. You are taking his words too literal. Holding the North does not necessarily mean ironborn soldiers in every town, William the Conqueror was crowned and accepted as the King of England long before he had control of the much of the country. "No," said Catelyn. "Leave them to guard their own, and win back the north with northmen." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- She saw how he studied his maps whenever they made camp, searching for some plan that might win back the north. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "He has lost the north," insisted Hosteen Frey. "He has lost Winterfell! His brothers are dead . . ." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He smiled a wet red smile. "Or should I call you the King Who Lost the North, Your Grace?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mace Tyrell spoke up. "Is there anything as pointless as a king without a kingdom? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "He ought to be offering fealty," snapped Cersei. "By what right does he call himself king?" "By right of conquest," Lord Tywin said. "King Balon has strangler's fingers round the Neck. Robb Stark's heirs are dead, Winterfell is fallen, and the ironmen hold Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, and most of the Stony Shore. King Balon's longships command the sunset sea It is accepted that Robb had lost the North, the characters in the novel are not quibbling over semantics. They are not trapped, they are there for a specific reason, no one has trapped them there, Balon's orders were to stay there and once he was dead the vast majority were free to leave. You do understand that is precisely why they are there? Robb was either going to have to attack or would be ddefeate in the South, that is why the majority of the ironborn soldiers were stationed there. Again not trapped, they are there for a clear purpose. The gain is clear, just because it is not instant gratification does not mean there are no long term gains to holding Moat Cailin till Robb came undone. He wanted more land. How does attacking Lannisssport gain him independence? All it does is leave him weaker through the casualties that would occur from such an attack. Attacking the North means fewer casualties than attacking the West I feel we are going around in circles. Why do muggers more commonly pick on old people than banks? Why are shops targeted by thieve more than banks? It is all about risk vs reward. Balon did not think the risk was worth the reward when it came to the West. No one has claimed it was, what has been claimed by Balon is that it poorly defended in comparison to the West. The West has a Navy, the North does not The Western capital is strongly defended, the Northern capital is not Robb and his army are more than a thousand miles away from home, Tywin only a few hundred These are just facts, just look at the Crag, despite the Westerlings lowly status they were left with more competent guards than Robb left his capital. The North actually has an eastern navy, and there's no evidence that the what's navy is particularly large or formidable. Also, Winterfell had a competent guard; the problem was Bran sent them to deal with another issue. We don't see what a fully staffed Winterfell guard can do against someone who WASN'T raised there, but the Westerlings lost to Robb's host. There's also no allusion to the quality of Casterly Rock's guard.
  7. Jon_Stargaryen

    Would Balon attacking the Westerlands really change anything?

    To be honest, the question was Would Balon attacking the Westerlands really change anything? The simple answer is yes. He's not asking if GRRM would've written it that way; we can all agree on that. What he's asking is, in a Westeros with self-determination, how would this change affect things. Ramsay would still be a prisoner, Theon wouldn't get the chance to betray Robb (in that way), the North would be safe and Catelyn's non-existent grief wouldn't have led her to free Jaime. This puts Tywin in a compromising situation, as his bannermen are now in fear of losing their homes and will be losing morale over what the ironborne(who seem to see rape, murder and plunder as a birthright) are doing to their wives and children. It changes the flow of the war, seeing as Robb was winning before, and would have the overwhelming advantage over the Lannisters with their men so skittish.
  8. Jon_Stargaryen

    Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

    It's odd because you pointed out that particular statement, yet failed to point out another statement in which I said their discussion was about his mother. Odd. Also, it is about semantics. When I star that they guessed his parentage correctly, it is with regards to Lyanna. That's obvious, but you're simply taking it out of context, for some strange reason. 1. And you have the right to be right or wrong. I don't care. 2. Neither do I, but I know that based on their answer he trusted them to adapt his book series. 3. The things you're mentioning are due to budgeting an time constraints. Changing Jon's parentage serves neither. Neglecting the Vale means that they don't have to recast Jayne Poole or add a Myranda Royce. These are logistical changes. How would changing WHO Jon's parents are change the budget. If anything, making him the son of a white would be more cost effective. 4. But we can. We can demonstrate that she was in the Tower of Joy, due to her presence there when Ned arrived. We can't demonstrate that she was with Rhaegar, due to Ned never thinking of that, but we know she was with Gerold Hightower, because he died outside of her tower. Gerold was in King's Landing when Rickard and Brandon died, which we know from Jaime. He was also sent to find Rhaegar. Now, we can't say for certain that he found him, but seeing as he was later killed along with the two Kingsguard that had been traveling with Rhaegar, and Rhaegar returned without him (he went to King's Landing before the Trident) we can safely say that Gerold met up with Rhaegar. Perhaps they found her after Rhaegar left them and decided to keep her, but then they refused to give her back to Ned. And their speech before their fight mentions how the Kingsguard serves for life. What does holding Lyanna have to do with being Kingsguard? And you say this history is well established, but of the two you mentioned, one is mentioned of having a paramour, though it's never stated that this was concrete. And Aerys is part of the Kingsguard who (count them out): has sex with the queen (Jaime, Kettleblack), quits during battle/wasn't a knight (Hound), murders the Hand (Mandon Moore), surrenders the King (Boris Blount) and half of which beat a girl (all documented in the books from several perspectives). Not really setting a high standard, huh. What I'm saying is, using Robert's Kingsguard to justify the possible actions of an earlier Kingsguard is daily weak. There's also no textual evidence to support it (The Dayne and Whent portion/while not very reliable, the Lewyn portion is there). Also, we can be fairly confident with the accuracy of Jon's birth, given Catelyn's thoughts on the matter. Since she bout Ned's story, it can't be that far from the truth. Also, as an aside, I'm making an argument that Rhaegar is the best choice. I never said only. I've said more sensible, but not the only. Most others that people mention make no sense.
  9. Jon_Stargaryen

    Why did Aerys send Bittersteel to the wall?

    If we're going to be technical, most of those men were less traitorous than misinformed. The current (at the time) Targaryen dynasty was under suspicion of illegitimacy by some- due in large part to Aegon IV's propaganda- and the previous king had legitimized his bastard with another Targaryen woman; a handsome man of martial prowess. With all of these factors at play, I'm more inclined to call them susceptible than traitorous.
  10. Jon_Stargaryen

    If I were planning to ransom a lord?

    Exactly. What I was trying to convey was a question regarding a reasonable ransom for anyone, based on their social standing: A Ned Stark with Ice included would be worth far more than a Wendel Manderly or a Galbart Glover; but by how much. I'm thinking a lord paramount- from any region- would be upwards of 50k, a high lord would be somewhere around 20k, and knights of lower birth/little consequence might fall below the 1k mark. Though we must remember that this is for capturing Jaime, as opposed to selling him to his family. You have to offer some type of reward, because loyalty isn't going to cut it alone. But, when deciding on a figure, it's important to remember that foot soldiers won't know what officers know i.e. how much the Lannisters will pay.
  11. Jon_Stargaryen

    Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

    Haven't seen many of those, but I don't have any proof that they don't exist. So, you're presenting an argument based on semantics. You clearly understood what I meant, correct? So, it's less bullshit, as opposed to an incomplete statement, right? I mean bullshit is a lie, but what I did was give an incomplete statement, based on information that is well documented (which is how you knew what I meant). It is correct that they were given the task of guessing who Jon's mother is, so it is true that I misspoke (typed), however, it is also true- by your own admission- that Lyanna is Jon's mother, meaning Ned- who was leagues away for nearly a year, and was her brother who was disgusted by Cersei/Jaime- cannot be the father. This leads us back to R (with Rhaegar being the only person- who had not sworn an oath of celibacy to be near Lyanna)+L=J. Thanks for the correction by the way. Edit: You also missed where I later (before you posted your rebuke) posted this:
  12. Jon_Stargaryen

    Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

    That's the same basic principle. Rhaegar befriending Arthur and Ashara befriending Elia doesn't create a relationship between them. It's not about shaming him publicly. Ned didn't even want Jaime in his house, and advocated (along with Stannis) for having him take the black. How does that mesh with hiding another oath-breaker's secrets? Ned has several character flaws: He's too trusting (Littlefinger) He's too compassionate (Cersei/Joffrey) He's loyal to those who don't deserve it (Robert) Returning their sword was a pretty big thing. There are other options, but none of them are very solid/convincing.
  13. Jon_Stargaryen

    Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

    Your misinterpretation of the concept of logic is that it requires specific/common facts: it does not. Logic is dictated by clear and sensible thought, based on the circumstances presented. What you're thinking of is concrete evidence vs. circumstantial evidence. Correction. Point [C] is correct, due to the vows required to be a member of the Kingsguard. Of those that have been mentioned in the story thus far, Lewyn Martell, Jaime Lannister and Aemon Targaryen are the only ones suspected of having mistresses (pre-Robert, who seemed to be lax on everything). Of the three, only one has been confirmed, and another was thought to be propeganda by a vindictive ruler, hoping to discredit his heir, and the last is only a thought of someone else. This also brings to mind the dialogue in Ned's dream in which the members spoke of honor and duty, while Viserys was halfway to Braavos. Thanks for the reminder. Point [D] states that Rhaegar (thought he) needed three children and his wife was barren. It also brings to mind the the fact that he named Lyanna the Queen of Love and beauty, which is a sort of proposal (for unmarried men), or a pledge of devotion: Barristan thought to name Ashara Jorah named Lynese Criston Cole named Rhaenyra his Queen of Love and Beauty on several occasions It presents a pattern of some sort of devotion or a certain level of regard. Point does not assume anything. You do realize these are not all meant to operate independently. That's not how logic/evidence works. You take seemingly out of place things and form a case that points to something more plausible. What I'm saying is, of all the reasons Ned would need to hide the parentage of a child from his own wife, being Rhaegar Targaryen's son is the most sensible. If he were Robert's, there would be no point. Just say, This is Robert's bastard by Lyanna. We'll take care of him. If he is Brandon's, tell her This is Brandon's bastard. We'll raise him here so that he is not a threat. I wlll claim him as my own. If he is Arthur's, give him to Starfall. Hiding this from Cat makes no sense what so ever. That's logic. Point [A] is meant to head off any argument that it might have been Aerys that had Lyanna kidnapped, as opposed to Rhaegar spiriting her away. As an aside, held and imprisoned hold two different meanings. The point is, if Aerys had been responsible for Lyanna's situation, she'd be broiled alive Point [E?] makes less sense than any other point listed. It assumes that- after Jaime killed the Aerys, and the Kingsguard "kidnapped" his sister- Ned would want to protect their honor. For what purpose? This more in favor of R+L=J than anything. There was no other FEASIBLE reason for three anointed knights of the Kingsguard to be there waiting for Ned, and for Ned to pretend that the child is his. Because what you're suggesting is: Two members (one of whom is famed for his unflinching honor) of the Kingsguard (plus Rhaegar) kidnapped the daughter of a high lord and held her captive in Dorne and had their way with her. They were later met by the the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, who had orders to bring Prince Rhaegar back. But the Lord Commander also stayed after Rhaegar left, because when in Rome. Then these men stopped to prattle on about the honor of the Kingsguard when Ned appear, despite their forsaking of their vows. Then Ned took the Kingsguard (we don't know whose child it is) and raised it as his own. Really? That makes more sense than R+L=J. They stated in an interview that when they met with George, he asked them who they thought Jon's mother was, and based on that answer, he allowed them to do the show.
  14. Jon_Stargaryen

    Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

    Look as I might, I can't find what's not there.
  15. Jon_Stargaryen

    Why do book readers hate R+L=J?

    No, I'm talking about his mother. If x+L=J, then the most logical choice- based on the context clues provided in the books- would be Rhaegar. She was being held by the Kingsguard- and capture was less of Aerys style than burning alive, then raping his queen. It makes no sense for Ned to claim him as his own if he was anyone aside from Rhaegar's (if you want I can easily elaborate). Of the Rhaegar has the most opportunity, given Jon's (aprox.) age and his own inexplicable absense from the fighting for the months leading to the BotT. There's also his comment in Dany's vision about the three heads of the dragon/his insistence that there must be a third/his obsession with prophesy. That being said, it could have been some random hedge knight. To the second part, please elaborate.