Lady Anna

On 11/23/2023 at 11:45 PM, Lady Anna said:

I'm 4 episodes into season 2 and I'm loving it. I really like the concepts and themes they're working with so even when the execution falters I still enjoy it. Episode 1 of this season was a bad omen because it felt like a parody version of the show but ever since episode 2 it's just gotten better. All the new actors are excellent and the scale feels larger. They definitely had a bigger budget this time.

@Ran Hober Mallow is the Han Solo-type character you mentioned, right? I see it He was even on a planet called Korell !!

I finished season 2. Maybe I spoke too soon when I made the above post because the very next episode was the worst of the show lol. It's the weird episode when the show suddenly turned comedic. I can't believe they actually did that, like no one thought it may have been bordering on jumping the shark? Cause I thought so.

Speaking of, Lee Pace's acting was so uneven, it's distracting. I've been told that apparently the show-runner wanted more funny (darkly funny?) scenes with him and that's why that horrible tonal shift happened. If so, then this show isn't in good hands. It also ruined Demerzel until the final episodes.

I think overall season 1 was better because it was more even. Season 2 was too inconsistent: the highest highs and the lowest lows. Maybe getting a bigger budget this time went to their heads. While the Empire-Trantor storyline was the highlight last season, this time it was just embarrassing until the very end.

The Gaal-Salvor-Seldon plotline started well with lots of potential but then devolved into an over-extended messy finish. At first, the Mentalics planet and Tellem were interesting but then the whole thing with telekinesis and mind hopping, and Tellem coming back at the very end, was incredibly silly to me and I can't believe that's how Salvor was written off. I feel so bad for the two actresses that play Gaal and Salvor because Llobell is stuck playing a role that's essentially a living plot device and Harvey was clearly being wasted in an equally thankless role. I get the sense the writers have NO idea what to do with Gaal and by extension that whole plotline.

The Clarics-Hober plotline was my favourite this season: it was interesting, consistent, fresh and well-executed. The actors were excellent, in particular Kulvinder Ghir as Poly. The Bel-Glawen storyline was also good but both these storylines suffered from a lack of screentime, which made their resolution lose a LOT of impact. We should have spent more time with these characters; they're new to this season and instead of giving us endless scenes of the same things in Trantor, they should have dedicated more time to them. Ben Daniels - who was acting circles around everyone - was ultimately wasted.

To go back to the whole Empire thing, the matrimony issue and Sareth were initially interesting as well but then... I don't know what happened but it just wasn't good. The first episode of the season was a bad omen after all in that sense. Even the actors' performances declined gradually as it went on, like it's visible. Only in the last two episodes did that story have a highlight with the Demerzel reveal. Laura Birn, wasted until those episodes, was so good and I actually teared up at her scenes. But too little, too late.

I'm 4 episodes into season 2 and I'm loving it. I really like the concepts and themes they're working with so even when the execution falters I still enjoy it. Episode 1 of this season was a bad omen because it felt like a parody version of the show but ever since episode 2 it's just gotten better. All the new actors are excellent and the scale feels larger. They definitely had a bigger budget this time.

@Ran Hober Mallow is the Han Solo-type character you mentioned, right? I see it He was even on a planet called Korell !!

So I finished season 1 and I absolutely loved it. I think this show appeals to what I like. The Emperors's storyline is without a doubt the best thing about the show, though, even acting-wise. If it was only about that, maybe with Seldon's machinations against the Empire as a parallel plot, it'd be even better. Because the other 2 storylines weren't very well balanced, and the one with Salvor and the Anacreons felt over-extended.

I didn't think this show was confusing at all. I'm confused about people's confusion. Of course, if you look deeper you'll probably find inconsistencies especially with regards to Seldon's incredibly accurate predictions, but whatever. I don't nitpick to that extent especially when it's often something that comes with the territory in this kind of stories.

I'm glad I didn't read anything about this show before or during it because I got to watch it with no expectations and that may have helped. I read the pages on this thread relating to season 1 and the overall negative opinions on the show kinda surprised me but I'm glad I hadn't read them before finishing the season. I haven't read the books either so I don't have that attachment to compare this to.

Looking forward to watching season 2 which I believe ended recently? Also one final word about the actors who played Demerzel (intriguing character to say the least), Halima and the 19 year old Brother Dawn (who perfectly captured Lee Pace's whole energy). They were excellent. I was sad to see Halima go. Brother Dawn I think I will see again.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Nope, no cloning. But yeah, the genetic dynasty idea and how it plays out is easily the best part of the show for most people.

Lifting elements and faithfulness... I don't know, very broadly I guess it manages to get some nuts-and-bolts details (character named X does thing, etc.) right, but thematically it's mostly really different.

You're still on the first season? It's funny you mention Star Wars, since the second season wildly repurposes a character from the books and turns him into something of the show's Han Solo.

Oh wow, then the show really came up with something great regarding the genetic dynasty imo.

Yes, I'm still midway through the 1st season. That's funny about Han Solo 

I started watching this show this week. I'm 4 episodes in. I really like it so far! I haven't read the books nor did I have any knowledge of their plot or characters whatsoever and I'm not having any problems following or understanding the story.

I read the first page of comments and I was surprised to find out people thought the first 2 episodes were slow paced. I thought they were incredibly rushed and crammed with way too much! Episode 3 slowed down the pace and I appreciated that. It was much better that way.

I was also surprised to discover that the 3 Emperors scheme is not in the books (though the Emperor is still cloned, right?). I find it a brilliant concept and this whole genetic dynasty thing is fascinating and definitely a very interesting concept for a writer to play with. Concepts such as cloning and sentient droids (Demerzel) have a lot of room for thematic analysis and being connected to other concepts such as ruling, power and ancestry just makes it that more interesting to me.

I'm really enjoying the mysterious storyline on Terminus as well. I love Salvor and I don't mind that she's "special". I can't say it's a Mary Sue situation when I'm only 4 episodes in and have no resolution or full context but regardless it doesn't bother me at all. I know, because I accidentally spoiled myself, that she's connected to Gaal and I'm looking forward to the development of that.

I also came here to ask the book readers if the show - which is clearly not a 1-1 adaptation - is somewhat faithful in lifting elements from the books. I ask this because I find there's some similarities with Star Wars and since the books predate that movie/universe then either SW was inspired by it or this show came up with those elements while inspired by SW. Either way, it's fun.

Now I'll be very carefully exiting this thread

I liked the new episode but the same things I mentioned on my previous post still stand. In this episode it was very apparent to me how a lot of scenes on this show are just People Standing in Front of Generic CGI Sci-fi Setting and saying their lines in an unexciting way. As people have said, though, at least we're finally going somewhere with Baylan and Shin (who is a character I find intriguing, surprisingly). Lars Mikkelsen was excellent as Thrawn - I think this shows how strong acting can make other things (like make up or costuming) become less important (though I thought he looked fine).

The actor playing Ezra was also perfectly fine and they did seem to have recycled the Sand People and the Jawas for the new planet, didn't they? I love the Nightsisters but I fear they're just here as plot devices and set dressing. We'll see.

I watched Ahsoka up to the latest episode and I think it's getting better episode by episode. I absolutely hated the fact that this started with yet another secret map quest - that was not a good sign. However, I thought episodes 4 and 5 were definitely highlights. Episode 5 really brought it home for me because it covered multiple angles and, while the writing feels non-committal and surface-level, I feel like there's the core of a better story and show underneath all that. It's like you can almost see the better show this could have been but it's somewhat always out of reach. Teen Ahsoka was simply awesome, too. The actress did a very good job!

I also dig the melancholy vibe of the last two episodes. I think it fits the character of Ahsoka very well and her past and sadness and all her issues and demons. I just wish all of this was more clear and fit better together? (Possibly with some thematic connection to Baylan's jadedness and fall, as well).

I just feel like this show needs more of everything: more conversations, more excitement, more characters and plot lines. Like others have said, it feels kinda empty and the editing seems to be doing the heavy lifting in terms of filling in the runtime (I don't think episode 3 was even 30 minutes long and like, why bother, then?). The acting doesn't help; while I personally think Dawson is pretty good - or good enough - as Ahsoka, once again the direction and/or the writing holds her back. The same for the other actors.

I'd expect to have a better understanding of Morgan, Baylan and Shin by now, too. Again, this show makes me ponder why they waste so much time on certain things that just aren't helping the story and characters. Makes me feel like this might have been originally a 2 and a half hour movie extended to a mini-series like Kenobi.

I really enjoyed S1 of SNW, like all the episodes, but I didn't particularly like both episodes of the new season. The first one completely lost me with that slo-mo super-strength scene in the Klingon ship. Also, both the writing and the actors felt off and the plot was forced. The second episode was better compared to it (shout out to Yetide Badaki's guest role, she was great) but I wasn't a fan of this Ellyrian subplot and how it was handled.

On 12/23/2022 at 7:35 PM, Shaun Snow said:

Thoroughly average movie with above average CGI. Nothing with a budget that high should be that forgettable.

I feel that this is exactly what I was trying to say with my original post.

You know, the more I think about the movie the more I like it lol

Saw it yesterday in 3d. It was fine.

The technology is impressive, it's like a seamless blend of animation and real life in a way I really haven't seen before (though i think that video games also do something like this - with motion capture - but I don't play). It's really interesting but at the end of the day not particularly, or uniquely, spectacular for me. I mean, it doesn't beat the great visuals you can also get in other movies and often in real locations. It's just different.

But to me the thing is, tech like this probably "deserved" a better story than this movie. The story is so generic and uninspired that it brings the whole thing down. It doesn't help that the story seems to be secondary to the visuals, like they would do away with it if they could (imo that's why Avatar (2009) didn't have the staying power that they probably thought it would have). It's way too much style over substance.

However, I actually felt like the characters here were a standout. I loved the kids and the Sea People. Maybe it's the good acting or maybe it's the fact that we've seen this story before so these characters are like archetypes that we're already predisposed to root for. Either way, they were the highlight for me. I loved the middle sequence where they got to develop these characters (and the world) quite well imo.

Unfortunately, the third act was sort of a disappointment. It was way too long and dragged out.  But I'd watch the sequels.

13 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I just wish there were some writers/content creators who were making (fair) criticisms of the show. I like HOTD, but it isn’t perfect, and I feel like I’m in an alternate plane, seeing so much unadulterated praise for it.

 

If the story is all about Rhaenyra and Alicent, then I suppose we’ll be getting new material for Alicent next season. All I know is that it’ll probably be very weird.

I get what you mean about the huge praise for it. Granted, I'm not in a lot of online spaces but at least between me and my friends, we did find the season uneven, mostly as a consequence of its structure. But there's definitely things here at fault, namely Mysaria who I think it'd be fair to say comes across as a caricature, for example. Or how certain characters are underdeveloped, like the Velaryons or Helaena. Not to mention some of the technical aspects of the show, like the pacing or lighting. The only article I remember seeing was one in The Guardian about the terrible lighting in episode 7. But again, I'm not really on top of online discussion/articles.

I definitely think that it's not as good as season 1 of GOT. It improved on the things GOT needed improving (sexual violence, sexposition, etc.), but otherwise I thought it wasn't as good. Still fine, of course, but not when compared to that season 1.

And to go back to the technical aspects, I genuinely didn't think this show was extraordinary on that front. To start with, the lighting obscured some things. I also honestly felt like there was something weird about the sets and locations: it felt very stage-like sometimes, like they don't exist behind those doors and walls.* When I think back to GOT, however, that was not the impression I got (at least in the first seasons): even though the budget was so much smaller and there were a lot more characters and a lot more locations, the world felt open and wide like it had a bigger budget than this show. Hotd is very expensive, with fewer locations and characters, and it felt more "low budget" and closed off than GOT. I'm guessing CGI takes a huge slice of the budget. Maybe it's just the small number of locations. But in retrospect, it makes what they managed to do in season 1 of GOT an incredible achievement.

But I do believe there's only room for improvement from now on, since there won't be any more drastic time skips in a very short amount of time.

I am really looking forward to what they're going to do with Alicent, and her relationship with Rhaenyra.

*I wonder if the pandemic enforced some restrictions on the production, as well.

** I just remembered that they built the Red Keep as a multi-storey (2 or 3 floors?) building inside a soundstage with actual rooms and staircases. While that is impressive, it also explains why the Keep on this show feels so claustrophobic and like a small set of rooms to me. I swear, it didn't feel like this on GOT from what I recall.

(Sorry about the huge posts haha I got carried away)

I don't recall if this was already linked here but it's an interview with Ryan Condal for the New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/23/arts/television/house-of-the-dragon-showrunner-ryan-condal.html

I highlight this quote:

It all goes back to Alicent and Rhaenyra and their fathers. The daughters grew up into adults who’ve been manipulated and poisoned by their fathers, in a world where they’re taught, as we talked earlier, about picking sides. They go on to perpetuate this division that began in the pilot. It’s all about them, and will continue to be.

1 hour ago, RhaenysBee said:

well this is a new read of it, one that I haven’t come across before. Goes to show how many ways the audience can view and interpret what we saw. Which isn’t a bad thing. I think both shows (hotd and got) neglected to incorporate the importance of prophecy into their world building, that’s where Jon Targaryen failed too. Even GoT only made this to be a Melisandre and Stannis thing who were both portrayed as moderately looney for being so caught up in prophecy. There were traces of prophecy around Daenerys but it was never portrayed as the full fledged driver into the story as it was in the books. I think something similar is the deal with hotd, because production is very careful to not border on what the audience might consider “silly”. 

I think in the scene itself Daemon says something like "my brother used prophecies to give a purpose to his weakness" or some such, right before he says "dreams didn't make us kings, dragons did". I definitely think he lost it because 1) he realized that Rhaenyra was following in her father's footsteps of being a level headed ruler, which he hated about Viserys seeing it as weakness (and here, I also think he might have been shocked to see that she wouldn't just follow him but instead assert her own decisions), 2) finding out Rhaenyra is privy to knowledge (relating to their family) that he isn't aware of and that nobody thought he was worthy of receiving.

I think part of his character is feeling the need to have power over women, so when Rhaenyra here "escaped" from under his influence, he snapped, because now he knows that she was Chosen in a special way and that now she's the queen and can give him orders. He's lost the power he thought he had over her. At least, that's my interpretation.

Regarding GOT, you're absolutely right that they didn't seem interested in pursuing the prophecy/fantasy side of things. Which is why the inclusion of this prophecy in Hotd seems stupid or weird to a lot of viewers.

5 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

Yes I can see all that, though the show didn’t do much to establish that the Targaryens as a family were into prophecies, or that Daemon in particularly was or how high society at this point generally views prophecy. That groundwork is missing for me to see the credibility in Daemon’s reaction or the weight of the revelation to him. My impression had been that Viserys was a history geek and this prophecy is important to him but not much more than any other legend from ages ago. It may be different in the books but I certainly didn’t get the Rhaegar vibe out of anybody and so the scene felt unduly over the top. 

It's a prophecy apparently passed down from king to heir, and it comes from Aegon the Conqueror himself, so I do think at least those in the know do believe in prophecies or at least regard them as important (after all, the Targaryens survived because of one). So I do think that was established as not just something Viserys was concerned with. Daemon's reaction was more because he saw how Rhaenyra was her father's daughter, following in the same foolish things, in his perspective (and also how she has Targaryen-related knowledge that he doesn't have), but we, the audience, know it's actually something important and that also he was left out of it because he was never considered an adequate heir.

44 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The defenses of Daemon online are crazy, and there is a certain gender divide that I’m noticing. The women are mostly saying that him choking Rhaenyra is character assassination by the writers because he clearly loves his family above all else, while the men are arguing that it’s okay that Daemon murdered Rhea because she provoked him with her verbal abuse and/or he was acting in self-defense when she reached for her bow. 
 

We’ve got a decade of this ahead of us, friends 

I.....don't have any words for any of that...

Truly being offline is probably the best choice with this show.

19 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

New interview from Condal. He mentions a scene between Baela and Rhaenys that was cut from the final episode, but says that any other cut scenes from the finale didn’t need to be included. I see this as further confirmation that the showrunners see Daemon as a villain. In a way, I’m glad they’re committing to it. Once they decided to have him murder his wife with his own two hands, there was no coming back from that.

https://www.vulture.com/article/house-of-the-dragon-finale-ending-explained-director-interview.html

Agreed. And I personally agree with them. That is, in how their approaching his character.

I genuinely don't get this outrage about Daemon. I mean, from the Daemon stans who somehow thought he was prince charming, yes I get that they would be mad. But that misinterpretation is not the show's fault because there's nothing on the actual show that gives that impression. On the contrary, it was explicitly shown, multiple times, that he is very capable of doing what he did to Rhaenyra. And I also believe that that wouldn't be far fetched even for his book counterpart. I'm just so confused by this reaction and by the crew and cast members being asked to explain it like it's something out-of-character.

30 minutes ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

Oh I absolutely loved the second half and wanted more. More Harwin, all the kids (both ages) and Velaryons. I would have liked to see reactions to Rhaenyra marring Daemon. I think spending more time here could highlight how it was such a bad idea for Rhaenyra to stay away from King's Landing. She should have been there to take a part in running the kingdom, being there for her ailing father, and trying to form bonds with her siblings. 

Even so, I'm grateful we get Rhaenyra and Alicents' childhood friendship since I don't see many female friendships portrayed, let alone one being the focus. It's even better imo when they feel disappointed and betrayed through the years to the point of estrangement yet they are still shown to love each other. Unforgivable lines may have been crossed and still they truly don't wish the other harm. That's realistic.

Agreed! Alicent and Rhaenyra's relationship is truly the centerpiece of the show and I'm glad it is because it's been great to follow it through it all. As you say, their love for each other that still lingers is so realistic and special. I've really, really enjoyed it.

Hi! Which characters, major or minor, from the book are you most excited to see on the show in the next seasons?

For me, it's definitely Cregan Stark, Addam and Alyn of Hull, Alys Rivers and Jeyne Arryn.

37 minutes ago, Adaneth said:

I hope we're having better wigs season 2. lol

But I personally thought only Matt Smith's most recent wig was bad. The others were fine.

Forgot to mention how good Emma D'arcy was. They and Paddy Considine were the best actors on the show for me. (Speaking of, I thought Rhaenyra's hair in the coronation scene slightly resembled Viserys' which was a nice touch, if deliberate).

And for once, I didn't think the lighting on this episode was ever bad at all. Excellent music, too.

29 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

IMO that would have been preferable to what felt like trying to hit a checklist of events covering 30 years, with few of them having much time to feel meaningful. The book is bare bones, so it's not like adapting ASOIAF. Pertinent background info could've been used to craft the last months of the buildup to the Dance. Aegon, Aemond, Helaena, Jace, Luke, and the kids never/barely introduced could have used considerably more time. You don't have to invent major tragedies or wars to do that, just create scenes that develop the traits you want people to associate with them. 

I agree with you. Just thinking about characters like Laena and Vaemond (even Corlys) who could have had more development, besides the ones you mentioned. Or Baela and Rhaena, who didn't even have lines this episode! Or even the people in the Small Council, the Kingsguard, etc. They've already come up with so much more than what's in the books, I'm sure they could have made it work and create longer, more cohesive arcs for some of the supporting characters.

Cause it did feel like some things were only on the show because the writers had a list with bullet points that needed to be crossed out, when they didn't have the time to properly set it up, develop it, and resolve it. And it didn't need to end with Storm's End, it could have continued a little bit more into Blood and Cheese and all that, in 10 episodes.

That said, they still did a reasonable job.

10 hours ago, Ingelheim said:

It definitely resonates with Viserys' statement on dragons earlier this season, "a power men should have never trifled with". I think it also gives both Aemond and the Dance a complexity it didn't have before.

Luke's death is more tragic because he actually had escaped Vhagar, it was Arrax who attacked her. Dragons are fearless and will fight to the death, not matter the cost. Vhagar must have been so offended by the little dragon even daring to attack her that she said: f*ck this.

On the other hand, it keeps on with the whitewashing of certaing Green characters, like Aemond and Alicent. Which I like, but I can also understand certain people will have problem with it

Agree with this completely. Now that the season is over, I see how the writers wanted to convey all of this, in a more humanized, complex, tragic way than the book. I, for one, totally support it.

I absolutely loved it. Best of the season for me, probably.

I do prefer this part of the story - the second half of the season - much more and it delivered. Honestly, if they had omitted the first 5 episodes, and made the other 5 into 8 or 10 episodes, I think a lot of issues on the show could have been resolved, namely regarding the supporting characters and plot points that are very undercooked or were quickly dealt with and forgotten, and reduce the amount of time skips/actor changes in such a short amount of time.

Either way, I felt they did a good job with this season.

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah I think we're on the same page and this was what I was trying to express by calling it tacky and trite. 

Oh understood. I wasn't sure which part of the character we were agreeing on but yeah exactly.