The Young Maester

Tbh I reckon they might take the throne when the great council was called to name a king after maekars death. Some lords wouldve seen better sense at choosing the blackfyres (arguably a stronger claim than viserys's whole line), since Aegon was seen as more peasant than lordling.

You still gonna argue this point? Their is tons of evidence that point towards leading from the front on a show of bravery is completely normal thing to do and that you wont be shunned for it. If How did he manage to raise an army of 20k for the battle of towton if not because of his fame as a martial man and his likeable personality. When he named himself king it was his battle prowess that also helped attract warriors. And did he lead from the rear? because according to you all these tactical movements that occurred need a leader sat in the rear leading. Edward was an idiot but he was still respected despite his lack of interest in ruling. Martial prowess is an absolute bonus on nullifying those negative traits. And Richard usurped his nephews which made him disliked. Had both the Henrys been more successful on the field they would be more tolerated. Especially Henry lancaster whos humility and kind nature made him likeable to a degree. Im not taking your word for this because nowhere have i read this fact. I might be wrong but never encountered it. And its pretty heavily documented that is a mistake and they thought william was dead, but their also good arguments for it being a feint. But im not gonna just say with my chest is one or the other because people that have invested their lives on that battle dont even know. But you just guessed that money lenders existed in westeros. Whilst i can open some book or find sources that say banks existed and how they operated during the middle ages. So if anything your the one speculating because your inventing things which in westeros we have not seen happen. No it cant. Professional armies are literally standing armies that are kept even during peace times. The only thing id say is professional during the middle ages is lords retinues and they fought the same way as any other knight. How comes? Because from what i can see your the one trying to pin robbs heroism on the death of his honour guard. This is bias dislike towards him. And whatever qoute or evidence i bring you shut it down by repeating the same thing again and again. "He shouldnt have charged", "Its his fault". Yes and he furthered this friendship by giving him a merchants daughter with lots of cash. Ill simplify the quote "save for the Gulltown Arryns, who had the rare good sense to marry merchants." You started with this than i replied with this Than you divert the topic towards universities in europe even tho the main topic is arguing whether the citadel makes westeros in par with medieval europe. I personally dont care how hard it is to do these things. Its not my problem, the important thing to note is that the citadel dosent bring westeros no where near the intellectual studies of the middle ages. And you changing the topic towards how hard it is to implement or whether these kingdoms did have it, is just trying to save face because you dont want to acknowledge that westeros IS NOT in the early renaissance era. So not Early Renaissance. Its the lack of worldbuilding that makes me put westerosi society and mindset into the early middle ages. Trying to defend your point of westeros being in the renaissance era is pointless right now. 100 years?????? Renaissance is clearly from 15th century till 17th century. Thats fact, you can search it if you want. As I said Priests and the clergy were fickle and would do whatever they wanted. Because he wants to? Possibly also for glory. And maybe his sense of honour compels him that his men should see him taking the same dangers as they do. Tywin would scoff at anything. And this is just Tywins personal mindset. He is experienced enough to see these things as pointless. And Tywin dosent represent the knightly class I think were seeing the wrong sort of honour here. Your talking about justice, but im refering to honour in battle and in matter of politics. Like having the honour of being in the vanguard, or being a personal guard to your liege lord. Same as how walder felt dishonoured when Robb shunned his betrothal. Its quite obvious that these knights care little for the knightly vows they swore. My bad If you follow this pretty good timeline https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8 You will see when Theon arrived at pyke informing his father about robbs plans etc. "By now Robb is at the Golden Tooth," Theon said. ACOK Theon I Its quite he clear he set off either some time after theon left for pyke or at the same time because he already told Theon his plans. And Theons arrival at Pyke and the harvest feast has a gap of handful of days. And saying Theon dosent have a clue wont mean anything. Its just denial. And tired of arguing this robb didnt bother to deal with the hornwood crisis since its an issue you brought up, and it has nothing to do with topic that OP started with. Now had Robb been ruling at winterfell and decided to ignore the crisis, than im in agreement with you, but since he his leagues away from winterfell in some land surrounded by mountains its just typical hate trying to bring it up. This is arguing in bad faith. Although you made some good points on your comment. You clearly stated they would defect but instead of just acknowledging the mistake you decide to change your stance. Ah but you see you were the one that started with "he would face troubles when he went north." So now you decide that speculation is pointless.

Depends what rebel sentiment was at the time. One imagines that he would encounter Robert and maybe even join his rebellion if Robert agrees to swear him homage. Whether Robert and the other rebel lords would agree it’s hard to tell. But it isn’t out of the realm of possibility since the rebels didn’t have a discussion about who should be king till after the battle of the bells. More than enough time for a cousin of aerys to make his bid.

Um yes, These armies were literal a large number of men that were called upon. You don’t know maybe you never campaigned with them before. A leader could do what he wanted and absolutely no one would criticise him for taking the same risks as other men. Yes, Edward iv and Richard iii were warrior kings. Edward was a 6 foot 6 giant that gained the admiration of his men because he fought alongside them. He won the largest battle fought in English soil (battle of towton). All while fighting in the front amongst the confusion and the massive blizzard that was present. You know why he won? Because his nobles acted independently and didn’t require him to sit back and sit on his arse trying to give orders even tho you couldn’t see anything within 50 meters due to the blizzard. Richard iii also famously fought in the front. Betrayed at bosworth field when the earl of percy betrayed him by not committing his left flank. The lancaster didn’t have a martial king. Prince Edward (son of Henry iv), was looking like a remake of his grandfather Henry V. But sadly he died fighting at the battle of Tewksbury. Henry Tudor and his namesake Henry vi were the only ones that didn’t bother fighting much. And guess what? They weren’t as loved as Edward iv was. No one knows if it was feint. It seemed more like a rout because they thought their duke was dead. And how did they feint a retreat if William was charging alongside his knights? Because according to you he should’ve been leading from the rear and if his too busy fighting than he couldn’t give orders. They would have had. It’s just speculation at this point. A bank was a business if a man wanted to open one they would if they had the money. Essos is filed with banks, but Westeros is not. Where did I say this? Did I say someone can’t lend money To whoever they want? Is the act of lending the only thing a bank does? Because it’s obvious its done by lords and merchants. The iron throne alone owns to a couple lords and some local merchants in kings landing. First you said Westeros has a bank in oldtown which is arguably true or not. Now you mention money lenders which is basically a profession on its own. Lords and merchants did lend money but we dont see a class or people that actually do this as a main profession. So no don’t put words in my mouth, because at this point your grasping at straws. A vanguard isnt just one twentieth of its army. It’s the main thrust. An army of tywins size would consist of a vanguard around 3k minimum. And as you said most of tywins army is professional but we have no evidence it was simply because it’s a typical feudal army which was called upon during times of war. No where did I say that Does this sound like me claiming tywins army is full of useless beggars? again putting words in my mouth. I gave you evidence of why their army was no where near professional. An army that consists of chivalric knights will never be considered professional or disciplined. You quoted this on my comment of how our real life nobles disliked the merchant class but you didn’t address it. Instead you switched the topic towards westeros. You mean this wedding. Petyr Baelish was clear across the Vale, though, attending Lord Lyonel Corbray at his wedding. A widower of forty-odd years, and childless, Lord Lyonel was to wed the strapping sixteen-year-old daughter of a rich Gulltown merchant. Petyr had brokered the match himself. The bride's dower was said to be staggering; it had to be, since she was of common birth. Corbray's vassals would be there, with the Lords Waxley, Grafton, Lynderly, some petty lords and landed knights . . . and Lord Belmore, who had lately reconciled with her father. The other Lords Declarant were expected to shun the nuptials, so Petyr's presence was essential. Which was specifically attended by petyrs supporters. And brokered by petyr himself so he could make an ally of lord corbray. "Lord Lyonel Corbray is well disposed toward my rule," There are several branches of House Arryn scattered across the Vale, all as proud as they are penurious, save for the Gulltown Arryns, who had the rare good sense to marry merchants. They're rich, but less than couth, so no one talks about them. And with this quote it’s clear to see merchants are also looked down upon in Westeros. And already by that century Europe had more universities than Westeros. Your argument of the citadel being the university of Westeros falls flat when compared to our own world. Trying to switch the argument won’t change that. Never said it was easy, and It’s really not our problem how hard it is. If Europe could do it, and Westeros can’t than they are far away from being called a renaissance society. We also don’t know how hard or easy it can be pulled off. Maybe the king does have a pull and can attract many intellectuals. But we won’t know. Ehm no. If I seem to remember the time during the 30 years war and rule of Elizabeth was during the renaissance era. If you think I’m talking about the American revolution than no your wrong. A women would be likely branded a witch for doing it a man can get away with it because at the time nobles and rulers started to put less weight on religion and focus more on matters of state and money. In the middle ages it’s legit all down to whatever nonsense your local priest says out of his mouth. During those times a priest word carried more weight. Whilst by the reformations it didn’t so much. You asked for a quote and you probably didnt think I’d find any. But here they are. And you still throw it away just to show face. Your bias is showing. Robb was known as a charismatic boy, and if you read his chapters where he deals with his lords it’s clear to see how much of a good job he does it. I will say this again you saying he shouldn’t charge into battle is the most stupid thing to say. It’s normal for the time, and it shows off your martial prowess. In the end robb didn’t lose a battle or die in battle. So your argument of “Meh he shouldn’t have charged off” is just bias hate towards the character which is clearly showing. Men like petyr believe this, and how many battles or tourneys has petyr participated in? Whilst most knights in Westeros believe chivalry and honour to be the most important thing. Just because some important characters say it dosent mean the rest of the continent believes it. Probably and maybes. Don’t help your argument. By the time Theon leaves to pyke robb is already marching west. The hornwood crisis only escalated after the harvest feast, and in said feast they toasted to robbs victory at oxcross. Maybes and probably too. Maester Luwin sent Alebelly away and closed his door. "My lords," he said gravely, "we have had a message from His Grace, with both good news and ill. He has won a great victory in the west, shattering a Lannister army at a place named Oxcross, and has taken several castles as well. He writes us from Ashemark, formerly the stronghold of House Marbrand." Bran V his harvest feast chapter. So clearly by the time of the harvest robb was already doing his stuff. Clearly you said they’d defect which literally means rebel or switch sides. Might’ve and again were presuming what would happen at this point. We don’t know whether he planned to spend the winter in winterfell or if he planned to raise a new host.

Just when professional army were becoming a thing. Its much easier to command an army that actually obeys. Especially compared to the medieval knights whom were prone to disobey. 15th century? You sure about that. History will prove you wrong. I can point to you towards the war of the roses and youll see lots of nobles that fought tooth and nail alongside other men. And Saying "Just about everyone realised this" is a bold claim since it is nowhere near the truth. Had you said that people started to see the advantage of not getting involved than it would be more believable, especially since its when muskets started being rolled in. You say you shouldnt but thats your opinion. We literally have tons of evidence of leaders doing exactly what robb did in both asoiaf and our own real world. Trying to use a modern warfare mindset to criticise/compare what men in the middle ages is silly because they do what they simply because its considered normal at the time. I can say Lords shouldnt marry off their daughters against their will (my opinion and modern mindset), but it dosent mean im right because this is considered normal for the time. If someone wants to risk their life more than they already are than thats on them. They will reap the rewards and win glory. Its the dark ages not modern times. This is especially true because your trying to link one mans action of bravery to a succession crisis which really has nothing to do with it. I assume you forgot catelyn exists. She is still the lady of winterfell before whispering wood. If lords wish to challenge her regency they might try but seeing as lady Lysa wasnt challenged than I don’t see how catelyn (a very capable women), would fail. Whoever she names leader of the army its up to her. It’s not modern pike and shot era. Middle Ages battles were simpler. Just bash into the enemy, some tactical plan were made (they mostly weren’t followed). Whoever had the strongest will would win. What you want to happen wouldnt work for the era because for their to be maneuvers and coordination you need a professional army with separate regiments, platoons etc. which we dont see until the Protestant reformation. Check Gustavus Adolphus Equipment? The soldiers the lords call upon have their own equipment. Lords didnt equip their armies, they only equipped the retinues. Ammunition, only people that cared about a steady supply of ammunition were the English (heavily centralised kingdom for the time). And nowhere do we see other kingdoms have this level of care for ammunition. True for the roman age, and modern age. But not for the middle ages. Tell that to the pompous knights that seem charge without orders. Same goes for lords deciding to do their own things during battles. Its the dark ages, not the romans or the modern one. Middle Ages saw heavy stagnation on every aspect of life (military, construction, literature etc). Their are so many examples of even the best of soldiers lacking discipline. The age of chivalry was more about personal glory. Its not so hard to see. Armies werent professionally trained, they were called upon in times of war and every man would bring their own training, experience, and equipment. They knew how to stand in a formation, how to do shieldwall, and knights/man at arms with horses knew that when charging at the enemy you stay knee to knee when in a cavalry formation. But other than that no other training or discipline is installed into these men. One bank which is never mentioned and we dont even know it exists. One city in the middle ages would have dozens of banks. Not really a university more like a monastery (but of higher learning), with the maesters being monks. "He watched Ser Gregor as the Mountain rode up and down the line, shouting and gesticulating. This wing too was all cavalry, but where the right was a mailed fist of knights and heavy lancers, the vanguard was made up of the sweepings of the west: mounted archers in leather jerkins, a swarming mass of undisciplined freeriders and sellswords, fieldhands on plow horses armed with scythes and their fathers' rusted swords, half-trained boys from the stews of Lannisport … and Tyrion and his mountain clansmen." Tyrion at the green fork. These trained men are knights (with ill discipline). The lannister army isnt drilled yearly, they dont have platoons or regiments (whatever it is called). Ghengis khans Hordes has a closer shot at being called professional. Ehm very wrong because in the early periods of the renaissance era is when they started to create a bureaucracy, and a more stable administration. And raising armies of knights and man at arms was too expensive. Whilst recruiting random peasants and equipping them and training them proved to be cheaper. Yes but they didnt feel disgusted and jealous by the merchant class as much as their medieval ancestors did. They realised that trade is more important than taxes. Well thats a westerosi problem. Easily solved by kings/lords building their own institution so that they can receive men trained in certain roles. And all tho maesters do learn what a man had available in a middle ages university (astronomy, engineering, etc.) this is only available at oldtown. Whilst by the 14th century kingdoms throughout europe already had more than one university in their respective kingdoms, and westeros is three times the size of western europe. If this dosent scream stagnation than I dont know what does. From our point of you we dont see the difference. But civilisation has always been a progressive one. The middle ages were dark for the people, and in the renaissance era we see more gentlemanly things. In the renaissance you had kingdoms promoting freedom of religion and bill of rights. Not to forget you werent burned as a heretic by some zealot priest because you somehow discovered how to cure a disease. Leobald Tallhart had his turn the following day. He spoke of weather portents and the slack wits of smallfolk, and told how his nephew itched for battle. "Benfred has raised his own company of lances. Boys, none older than nineteen years, but every one thinks he's another young wolf. When I told them they were only young rabbits, they laughed at me. Now they call themselves the Wild Hares and gallop about the country with rabbitskins tied to the ends of their lances, singing songs of chivalry." "I have fought beside the Young Wolf in every battle," Dacey Mormont said cheerfully. "He has not lost one yet." In the days that followed, Robb was everywhere and anywhere; riding at the head of the van with the Greatjon, scouting with Grey Wind, racing back to Robin Flint and the rearguard. Men said proudly that the Young Wolf was the first to rise each dawn and the last to sleep at night, but Catelyn wondered whether he was sleeping at all. He grows as lean and hungry as his direwolf. "In truth, the young lord commander and her king had more in common than either one would ever be willing to admit. Stannis had been a younger son living in the shadow of his elder brother, just as Jon Snow, bastard-born, had always been eclipsed by his trueborn sibling, the fallen hero men had called the Young Wolf." She had taken her other daughters with her, but as one of Robb's battle companions Dacey had chosen to remain by his side. He has Ned's gift for inspiring loyalty. Olyvar Frey had been devoted to her son as well. Hadn't Robb said that Olyvar wanted to remain with him even after he'd married Jeyne? Smalljon Umber and Robin Flint sat near Robb, to the other side of Fair Walda and Alyx, respectively. Neither of them was drinking; along with Patrek Mallister and Dacey Mormont, they were her son's guards this evening. She saw Smalljon Umber wrestle a table off its trestles. Crossbow bolts thudded into the wood, one two three, as he flung it down on top of his king. "The Young Wolf is dead," Manderly allowed, "but that brave boy was not Lord Eddard's only son. Robett, bring the lad." You cant be serious? So because Mr.Robb decided to be brave and charge into battle. Which is completely normal thing to do. You blame daryns and others death on him doing what chivalry and honour demands. Yes i assume ravens can smell robbs army on the move and just coincidentally land on robbs shoulder. Robb left regents why would rodrik or luwin ask for orders when they are left in charge. They cant bother him with matters of state because he is campaigning in enemy land. Convincing men to march south again would be hard with winter approaching. But that dosent mean a lord would outright deny him and rebel. And seemed that robb planned to spend the winter in winterfell, but we will never know. So no, defections dont apply here.

Westerosi system is shite. Resembles more the feudal way the Anglo Saxons lived.

But your whole point is that he should stay back and supposedly lead. Your point is that he can better lead his army from the rear. So this is still confusing. Put himself in danger? Who cares he is at war, men die in war, if he dies it’s fine he has 2 heirs available, and dozens of lords that are willing to protect his family’s rights. Well some other man at arms would’ve given chase. You had dozens of lords in that battle. They all would’ve reacted accordingly. They all know the plan, you cant expect one person to make all the decisions. Your seeing it from a board games point of view. Where you as the player can make instant decisions which would otherwise take minutes or hours for the orders to be sent. The whole point of giving other lords command is for them to lead and react to things. You think if someone like greatjon or Richard karstark saw some men slip right past them, that they would just simply ignore them? Their commander would be hundreds of meters away overseeing the battle (as you say), why wait for an order when you know they can’t escape. Plus in this era most nobleman in battle would make their own decisions. It’s why this era was really tough on battles since victory can’t be guaranteed due to the fickleness of men. It’s impossible to completely kill/capture an entire army. Especially if that army is twice your size. Your again thinking from a board players point of view. By the time the enemy retreats/routs, most of the army would be too tired to give chase and those that do wont be able to do as much damage as you believe. Grant you most casualties in battle come from when the enemy is retreating, but to expect your men to give chase for the full retreat is naive. How else do you keep an army from disintegrating. I’d rather have a starving army than an army low on morale. A starving army can still have the will to carry on and win the day, whilst an army with low morale will break at smallest possibility of defeat, let’s not forget desertion too. In any aspects of life that rely on a team, morale is absolutely the most important thing. This is true for the modern and gunpowder era, but in the Middle Ages, discipline was almost non existent, and logistics were essentially “live off the enemy’s lands.”Some did carry baggage trains, but if they are invading a foreign land than theyd ditch the baggage and instead take the food off the peasants. As you said broader world. And saying essos is close to the renaissance era is another arguable discussion. All these points you said apply to Essos only (which I wouldn’t consider continent in brisk of the renaissance era) Westerosi nobles still grumble at the presence of merchants, and they think counting money is beneath them. Westeros dosent have a banks, lawyers, university’s, a larger interest on trade from noblemen, more centralisation, and emphasis on conscripted and trained soldiers, and less use of knights and man at arms that most be called upon. And mercenaries have been around since men have learnt that money can be made off war. The behaviour of the westerosi resembles more the brutal and savage manner people in the early Middle Ages acted. His death defo made him a martyr in the north. But his actions during his campaign is what made him likeable. As I said linking the events during that battle to these events of betrayal is laughable. It’s like blaming me for giving you money to call a taxi home and on the way home the taxi crashes and you get injured. The sons of these lords willingly joined a campaign where they can Die, pinning their deaths on their leader is ridiculous especially when they offered themselves as guards to said leader. Robb was campaigning in the west, when the crisis began. When a king is far away from their kingdom they leave regents behind (e.g Richard lionheart when he was campaigning in Jerusalem). You cant expect a king to rule his realm whilst his on campaign. They dont have telephones or supersonic ravens. And you forget how long it takes for news to reach people across the continent. If robb heard about the abduction of lady hornwood, than he wouldve heard later on how Rodrick dealt with the issue and killed ramsey. By the time he gets news of the capture of winterfell he is also told his brothers are dead. This is an assumption, had went north and taken moat cailin. He would later secure and stabilise the rest of the north. From than on it’s all speculation what would happen. If his lords didn’t defect with all the bad events that happened (duskandale, winterfell, moat cailin, deepwood motte, Frey-karstark desertion). Than I don’t see how him liberating the north would lead to more defections.

On your first point you said their is a difference between overseeing the battle at a safe position and charging into it. But now you say its either leading a charge or fighting alongside other men. So im not sure which one is the point you stand on. All 3 of robbs battles didnt involve any reserves and they were all ambush battles which have very little risks because you caught the enemy unawares. Stannis, roose, and Tywin led pitched battles not coordinated ambushes. In most of robbs ambush battles it’s quite obvious that whatever struggle the enemy gave lasted very little, so their was no need to stay back and coordinate when by the time your orders would be fulfilled the enemy would’ve been routed. Only exception would be whispering wood in which Jamie’s army was geared and ready to battle, only difference is that they didn’t expect to be ambushed. Mayhaps if robb fought in a pitched battle we wouldve seen how he handles it but we never get to see that. And fighting along sides your men does wonders to morale. Morale is the most important thing when heading into battle. And fighting for a warrior king will inspire people. Seeing your lord take the same risks as you will make you risk yourselves even more. Westeros is nowhere near renaissance. It’s social, feudal, and economic structure resembles more the early Middle Ages. Only thing that resembles early renaissance era is military equipment. Their are risks and rewards when fighting. Robb reaped all the rewards, since after his death, his subjects talk fondly about him and his bravery. After his marriage to a women of lower status, desertion of Freys, and karstarks. His lords still remained loyal. The one thing we can pin on him, which resulted with lords deserting/switching sides. Is the Frey betrayal, his marriage really was a slap on the face. Everything else the karstark and boltons was a result of other peoples action which were out of his control. I attribute it more towards robb being young and naive, whilst Tywin was an experienced man who is willing to take the extra step to win.

A leader that joins the fray of the fighting is someone that will gain his mens loyalty and it would boost morale. So no their is nothing wrong with charging headlong into battle. It’s the Middle Ages, kings and nobleman would constantly put themselves at risk. Their are risks in war and if you willingly join an army on campaign than you already acknowledged the risks. Daryn willingly joined robbs guard and by doing so he also knows that he will sacrifice his life for robbs. So blaming robb for daryns death is like blaming a world leader for one of his bodyguards taking a bullet for him. It was his job and he did his job successfully.

So basically he should’ve stayed back with his mother and let the men do the fighting?

If Berena Hornwood is Lord Halys only sibling than by default her two sons (or herself) become the new rulers of hornwood.

So basically a book based on Essos

Povs aren’t meant to be primarily for character development. Some of them are literally just for us to have eyes on whats happening on the the other side of the world. And Jon did have ton of character development. Need to re-read acok and asos, and you’ll see how much he has changed when compared to agot. And if he does comeback for winds I suspect he wont be the same person. We might even see Jon become more ruthless.

As you say, that is how you see it. Which is not the way I see it. Let me guess, every single one of those kings should be put in a god tier.

Sorry I dont follow. Do you mean to say that the greens usurped the throne only because the heir wasnt present, or do you mean to say that the heir not being present just accelerated the process of usurpation.