Arthur Peres

Robb's mistakes are diplomatic, and not on the military field, the books let this clear "Jaime felt almost sorry for Robb Stark.He won the war on the battlefield and lost it in a bedchamber, poor fool." The two biggest mistakes made by Robb are sending Theon to Balon and marrying Jeyne. The first one is understandable and I feel the majority of us would make it, the second one is pure foolish and indefensable.

They might, but maybe they don't. There is a point to be made that the Tyrells had their forces close to the bay in KL, but they never informed the defense of the city, they waited for Tywin even thought they could be the saviours of the city and get more prestige if they did by themselfs. Also they sent men for Tywin and waited for him to join them, if they wait even a day more, KL falls. and even after Blackwater with the war pretty much won, the Lannisters were still worried that the Tyrells might join Robb: If with the war won, they still worry about them trading sides, what garantee do they have that they will be rescued when everything is against them?

He does not need to beat Tywin, he just needs Tywin out of position. Tywin was in the perfect position in Harenhall. From his position we are told that he can defend KL from the Baratheon threat, he is in the way between Robb and Joffrey, he can stop Roose and Robb/Edmure to link up their strenght, and he can attack the Riverlords like he did against poor kid lord Darry. But if Tywin is in the west chasing Robb, it does not matter if he wins his battle... he is out of position to do anything else. Roose and Edmure can link up. The Riverlands are secured, Stannis can attack KL. Tywin forcing his march for days from the Greenfork to Riverrun was still days too late to help Jaime, how long would take for him to march a much long jorney to West, chase down Robb, defeat him and them return to the Riverlands ? He would be way too late to do anything.

Robb never gaslight Edmure. He praises him in front of his lords and later on is undestandable pissed that he pretty much lost the war. And the orders were clear, "hold Riverrun". Robb calls him out for disobeying his orders of staying on the defensive, Edmure does not contest that and we know that he wanted to go to the offensive because we read his reasoning. I get that the fandom likes Edmure, but he wasn't correct, the text before the battle show us his motivation being almost petty, and his plan makes almost no sense considering that he is waiting for Robb to help him trap Tywin, while he does not have the means to comunicate with Robb. And the aftermatch is pretty much their side losing the war. And Edmure track record at that point was him making one mistake after another. The Fords was just the last example. Robb is not a mastermind that will manipulate his vassals into doing what he wants. When he tries that is very childsh like when he "threatened" Catelyn of sending Greatjon to deal with Renly. He is very foward with his intentions when he commands them. The only defense of Edmures actions is that the terrain allowed him to challenge Tywin in a somewhat advantage even when outnumbered 2 to 1, and he was proven right since he held the position. Tactical victory, strategic defeat.

Tywin was leaving the Riverlands, Catelyn tell us that they don't need to confront him. Edmure does not talk about protecting the smallfolk. He talks about glory, revenge and advantage of terrain.

Almost all the characters I like died in the first 3 books. The few left their arc has become a mess with lot of set up, but very few pay off. And is hard to care about the story when you don't care about the characters. The only two characters I like introduced in AFFC or ADwD was Arianne and Young Griffin.

The only reasonable argument Edmure gave to defend his actions were the terrain. The rest of the text let it very clear that is not a good decision. And the most important detail, Edmure tell us his goals, and he failed in every single one. “Yes, but once the castle falls, Lord Tywin will have no safe retreat. My own levies will defend the fords of Red Fork against his crossing. If he attacks across the river, he’ll end as Rhaegar did when he tried to cross the Trident. If he holds back, he’ll be caught between Riverrun and Harrenhal, and when Robb returns from the west we can finish him for good and all.” Tywin was alive by the end of it, was able to retreat, and was not trapped between Riverrun and Harenhall. Edmure is a good guy, but I don't get the fandom trying to potrait him as competent... the text let very clear that he isn't. Edmure falls for Tywin's trap in every move in AGoT. Edmure keeps making mistakes when the Lannisters invaded him. Then in a ACoK Edmure pressures Robb to return the riverlords to their lands, later on Jaime almost escaped because Edmure went whoring, and the final nail was the battle of the fords. Edmure is always making the wrong move for the right reason.

The point I was making is that Edmure was not thinking in protecting Robb, he was not thinking of the orders he had to follow, he was moving based on pride and the text let that very clear. And the only constant we have on Edmure is that on military matters he always makes the wrong choice. At the start of the war he blundered by spreading his force, than he makes another mistake in sending 2 outnumbered vassals against Jaime, than tries to face Jaime before his forces are assembled, than later on after being rescued by Robb he pressured him to let the riverlords return to their lands weakening Robb, and at last the fords.

Robb had nothing to do with Edmure's motivation to face Tywin and the text let this very clear. He never talks about saving Robb, protecting his rear, he talks about glory, about blooding Tywin and he expects Robb to help him trap Tywin even when he sends no menssager. Edmure wanted glory, was jealous of being outshined by his kid nephew, wanted to payback Tywin and saw a advantage on the terrain that could make up for his numbers. He is a good man, but he has too many flaws as a lord.

yeah. his accomplishments sounds like a grow man bragging that he got a driver's license.

The real question is: Did Balon ever did something decent? The guy is incompetent in every subject. As a IB we never see him sail or hear about anything he did... in fact in both of his rebellions he just sat his ass and let his brothers and sons fight his battles. Paying the iron price? nah. He is a terrible politician, rejecting a natural alliance and trying to join forces with his natural enemies during the war of the 5 kings, starting a major rebellion against Robert without any alliance was also beyong silly. Balon also failed to make a sucessor, he ignored Theon his natural sucessor, and even when told to his face that Asha would not be accepted by the IB he was stuborn in his attempt... As a parent in Westeros... we never hear of any of his kids having a match, Theon older brothers were savages that beat their younger brother harder than a full grow man like Ned... Asha is a weirdo that went so far on a prank that she tried to seduced her brother. Theon was a fine man when he was with the Starks and then Balon turned him into a mess in two meetings. And he prayed for his son's death... As a husband, his wife went crazy with grief and he failed to give her basic support that she moved out of the castle to be with her brother. As a son, the first time his father listened to him, got him killed in the shield islands.

Jaime attacked the hand of the king in the streets and later was commanding the Lannister army... It's hard to be more treacherous than that.

I would say that Stannis or Renly are more than justified in rising in rebellion against Joffrey. They (or at the very least Renly) knew their lifes were in danger, and claiming the throne was the best way to gather support. Very similar to what Robert did against Aerys, the only diference is that Aerys gave a order before the rebellion, and Renly rebelled before the execution came for him. There is also than chance that others started to rumor to force Daeron's hand and he started the very thing he tried to prevent. Daeron had lots of reason to fear Daemon. Daeron had his legitimacy contested not by Daemon, but by Aegon IV himself that would not gain anything by making such claims. Daeron was probably not a very popular king, getting rid of Aegon's IV corrupt court probably made him several enemies, making peace with Dorne was not a popular move, giving them several privileges also made him enemies. Daemon is Aegon IV legitimate son, he was his favorite and elder if Daeron is from Dragoknight, even his female line had a strong claim, he had a big simbol of power in Blackfyre, he was popular with the martial nobility, he was married to a very powerfull family in Tyrosh, had his own seat and lands. Daemon was much more dangerous than Stannis is for example, and we see that Tywin wanted to deal with Stannis before Stannis even claimed the throne.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But the first Blackfyre rebellion only started after Daeron tried and failed to imprison Daemon. As far as Daemon knows is not paranoia, they are coming for him.

By that point Ned already had accepted the position and was not turning back, and letting Catelyn in Winterfell was the smart move. They suspected the Lannisters of killing Jon Arryn, Robb would need all the support and advise to rule the north. If Anything Ned should not have brought Arya to KL. It was a decision made purely by her pettyness. There is nothing to gain by driving Jon out of Winterfell. She was simply wrong.

I would say that Catelyn was more wrong than right the majority of the time. She was wrong when she pushed Ned to take the position of Hand. She was petty to drive Jon out of Winterfell, even thought with the size of the castle she would barely see him, and if she is afraid of him becoming the next Daemon Blackfyre she should keep him close and watch him. Jon was also Robb's best friend and Arya favorite brother. She telling not only Ned, but also Varys and LF about the dagger was a mistake. If only Ned had saw that, they might had a chance to get a real answer. The mission was a secret and she decided to expose that to two of the biggest schemers in the series... LF given their past can be understandable that she trust him, but Varys? no way. Arresting/kidnaping Tyrion while not telling Riverrun, was a massive mistake, that started the war. Letting Robb put Roose in charge of the second army was a massive mistake, Roose is the last person to be put in a position of command. It's made even more tragic or confusing that Tywin was almost caught by surprise showing that the Greatjon's idea might have worked. Freeing Jaime was also a massive mistake and the one that doomed her and Robb. She was the one that suggested Edmure to marry a Frey and we all know how that ended... Catelyn was right about sending Theon being a mistake. She was right about making peace after Ned's death (but that also depend of Lannisters agreeing with peace, and they won't). She was kind of right about not trusting the Westerlings.

I don't think gullible is the right word. Westeros nobility is blinded by ambitious and very short sighted, they seem incapable of thinking ahead for five minutes. Tywin for example was great in short term solutions that poison and create long term issues.

Beyond the clear evils that were meant to be hated Jaime and Stannis

I don't get why compare such diferent situations. Put Jon in place of Daenerys with three dragons I see him doing just a "ok" job as she. Put Daenerys isolated on the wall with a buch of idiots, having to deal with the others, Stannis, Widling, Ramsey and Bowen March, I see her getting just as manny stab wounds as Jon, but probably from a diferent faction.

It was not part of the plan, if anything Roose did everything Robb asked him, not to. From the start Robb was hesitant to face Tywin: Robb hesitated. “The Greatjon thinks we should take the battle to Lord Tywin and surprise him,” he said, “but the Glovers and the Karstarks feel we’d be wiser to go around his army and join up with Uncle Ser Edmure against the Kingslayer.” He ran his fingers through his shaggy mane of auburn hair, looking unhappy. “Though by the time we reach Riverrun . . . I’m not certain . . . ” Then Robb started to explain his plan Robb drew a map across the table, a ragged piece of old leather covered with lines of faded paint. One end curled up from being rolled; he weighed it down with his dagger. “Both plans have virtues, but . . . look, if we try to swing around Lord Tywin’s host, we take the risk of being caught between him and the Kingslayer, and if we attack him . . . by all reports, he has more men than I do, and a lot more armored horse. The Greatjon says that won’t matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won’t be so easily surprised.” “I’d leave a small force here to hold Moat Cailin, archers mostly, and march the rest down the causeway,” he said, “but once we’re below the Neck, I’d split our host in two. The foot can continue down the kingsroad, while our horsemen cross the Green Fork at the Twins.” He pointed. “When Lord Tywin gets word that we’ve come south, he’ll march north to engage our main host, leaving our riders free to hurry down the west bank to Riverrun.” Robb wanted to draw Tywin north, then take Jaime by surprise, he wanted Tywin on march so that he could not help Jaime and he did not thought to surprise Tywin, instead he wanted the infantry to stall for time. Greatjon was sacked because he idea was either too risk or too foolish, instead they go with Roose for cunning. Tywin did fall for Robb's plan, and went on to march North like the young wolf wanted, he would waste even more days if Roose did not marched on him. “My lord,” he said, “Ser Addam bid me tell you that the Stark host is moving down the causeway.” “So the wolfling is leaving his den to play among the lions,” he said in a voice of quiet satisfaction. “Splendid. Return to Ser Addam and tell him to fall back. He is not to engage the northerners until we arrive, but I want him to harass their flanks and draw them farther south.” “We are well situated here,” Ser Kevan pointed out. “Close to the ford and ringed by pits and spikes. If they are coming south, I say let them come, and break themselves against us.” “The boy may hang back or lose his courage when he sees our numbers,” Lord Tywin replied. “The sooner the Starks are broken, the sooner I shall be free to deal with Stannis Baratheon. Tell the drummers to beat assembly, and send word to Jaime that I am marching against Robb Stark.” If anything, Roose should have stopped his march the moment he is harassed by the Lannisters skirmisher, and either retreat to draw Tywin even more, or picked a place to defend himself. Tywin would just see that as Robb losing his temper and being coward as his coments show. His father had set a grueling pace, and it had taken its toll. Men wounded in the battle kept up as best they could or were abandoned to fend for themselves. Every morning they left a few more by the roadside, men who went to sleep never to wake. Every afternoon a few more collapsed along the way. And every evening a few more deserted, stealing off into the dusk. Tyrion had been half-tempted to go with them. He had been upstairs, enjoying the comfort of a featherbed and the warmth of Shae’s body beside him, when his squire had woken him to say that a rider had arrived with dire news of Riverrun. So it had all been for nothing. The rush south, the endless forced marches, the bodies left beside the road . . . all for naught. Robb Stark had reached Riverrun days and days ago. Tywin was days away from helping Jaime, he forced marched his host and still came way too late to help Jaime's host, but Roose actions only gained Robb a single day, if he had retreated back already would have acomplished his mission, instead he wasted more than a 1/3 of his army for nothing. Roose went against the purpose of his command and seeked battle, he tired his men with the intention of surprising Tywin just to threw away the element of surprise, he waited for the Lannisters to form up, he abandoned the high ground, he threw the men of other houses into the mess and shoot them with arrows, and preserved his forces during all this.

For me it's very clear that he botched the battle of the Green Fork on purpose.

We see Robb send ravens from Ashmark to Winterfell, we see Stannis send ravens to all the lords in the realm. Roose sending a raven from the Twins to the Dreadfort is much easier to be done. I don't belive that Roose ordered the attack on Winterfell, but I belive he did ordered the kidnaping of Donella. Very diferent moments.

At the start of the book is very clear, that all camps are sending several messages between each other. Tywin orders a new army be raised by Stafford, Robb get the news of events that happened after the end of AGoT, like the death of the young lord Darry. The news of the death of the lord hornwood and his heir cleary already got to the north as we see several houses making their claim. I don't see why Roose would not inform Ramsey of what was happening during all this. I don't understand your point about Luwin. Roose was at the the Twins or at the Ruby ford at the start of the book and Ramsey at the Dreadfort. They don't need Luwin to write to each other.

Roose took comand of the North infantry and imediatly he disobeys Robb going after Tywin when his first order was to stall for time, draw Tywin north and avoid the battle if possible. What he did is what the Greatjon told Robb to do and was discarded for being either too risk or too foolish. I also think that Roose botched the battle on purpuse, everything that happened there is too weird. After the battles of WW and GF everyone already knew about the death of Lord Hornwood and his heir, a lot of time passes from the end of AGoT and ACoK, several battles in the riverlands, the discussion for the next Hornwood lord and etc, a lot of letters were being written and send, I don't see why Roose and Ramsey would not keep in touch about the situation in the north and in the south. I think Roose ordered Ramsey to abduct Donella to secure that he would be the one to get at least part of that land, the majority of the houses that wanted to be lords of the Hornwood lands were trying it by marrying her after all. Ramsey's acted way overboard forcing Donella into a marriage with him and torturing her, invading the lands and presenting himself as a clear criminal for everybody to see. From there on I think is Ramsey that botched everything being defeated and captured and Roose decided to distance himself from it and left Ramsey to his fate. Roose later on went on to take the lands for himself when he was declared Warden of the North.

Renly and Stannis calling each other horrible is like the pot calling the kettle black. But Renly being awful does not turn Stannis good. If Stannis did not cared for being king, he could just made what Master Aemon did and get out of the way of his brother, instead he choose to murder him.