Arthur Peres

From worst to "best":

Euron>Ramsey >Slave masters>Gregor>Qyburn>Roose>Craster>Littlefinger>Cersei>Joffrey>Lorch >Tywin>Varys>Vargo Hoat > Mellisandre > Balon > Black Walder > Walder Frey> Kevan> Lothar Frey>Jaime> Sandor> Stannis> Sand Snakes.

On 11/3/2023 at 12:45 AM, James Steller said:

I find it hard to believe that the Mad King would burn Rickard Stark alive and sentence Robert Baratheon to death for no reason other than his being Lyanna’s betrothed, but finds it in his heart to spare Brandon’s squire. It was clear by then that Aerys’ paranoia made him suspect almost everyone. I think he was beyond the kind of pragmatic thinking you imply with that explanation. Plus, what does keeping Ethan hostage get him? Why wouldnt he have executed Ethan during the rebellion as punishment for his family’s participation in the war against him?

Well Aerys also spared Dontos for being too young at the request of Barristan. Maybe Ethan was also seen as too young at the time.

Aerys was also called mad, his actions cannot be understood by using logic.

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

2. Most of Tyrion's plot in ACoK revolves around hiding Shae SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE Tywin will murder her horrifically and otherwise punish Tyrion if he finds out of her existence. Tyrion's entire plot almost revolves around the fact he can't just be an adult and do what he wants to do, because his father will punish him. 

 

Except he won't... he did find out about her and did none of the things you decribed... he used her as a prostitute and as witness to screw Tyrion.

Bring Shae was a terrible idea and that is the reason why Tywin forbade him. Tyrion gets into a piss contest with Cersei and end's up threating Tommen over a whore.

I don't like Tywin let's make this very clear.

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

3. Lol, the Jaime comment. Lol. Beyond nice. Tywin Lannister. My god man, are we reading the same books? Anyways, Jaime refuses to do what Tywin asks him to do, so Tywin disowns him. You know, beyond nice thing to do to your children. They try to live their own lives, so you...quite literally stop being their parent. When they are in their mid 30s mind you, lol. Dude. 

 

Well he is. Jaime never gets punished for his actions because of big daddy Tywin. He is protected and shelter from his crimes, erros and everything else. 

Jaime gets a Valyrian steel sword, a golden armor, Tywin cleary sees him as his heir, places him in command of his army and so on.

Jaime of the three is the most rebel against Tywin and the one that is treated the better, he is cleary the favorite and by Jaime's own words Tywin is one of the few people that he cares about...

2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

3. Cersei, as I've already mentioned, he treats as a pawn. He doesn't show her love. He tells her what to do forcefully, and without any care for her wants and desires. Honestly, you know why Cersei is the way she is? She tries to be Tywin...but she tries to be Tywin without Tywin actually giving her any education in how to be Tywin. She basically looks up to her father, and he could care less about that. That's cruel. That's needlessly cruel, yet again. 

Yes, he is no diferent than Doran or Mace pushing their daughters into matches they probably do not want. This is Westeros. The reason why Tywin wants her to marry again is to end the rumors of the bastards. She is given her choices and let's her make the final call on the matter and even lets her stall a bit.

Cersei needs to be controled. When Tywin left her to her own devices she started a war with several regions, executed their best hostage, and let Barristan be kicked out of the KG while replacing him with Sandor. Of course he does not trust her with any real power, look what she did as regent, she ended up losing control over the council, the city and being imprisoned by the faction she raised to power. By Cersei's own security she should not be allowed to make the big calls.

You talk like Tywin is trying to impose his will on a normal person. It's not the case. Had Cersei proven herself a decent regent Tywin would never send Tyrion of all people to take her place.

Of course Tywin is a horrible parent, he is cold, distant, judmental, hypocrite and a general asshole. Every single topic about worst parent Tywin is always among the top 5 of the list and I agree with the majority. The thing is that being a parent is just part of the problem of Tywin and Cersei.

3 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Fuck, murdering an entire house that his father has absolved of their crimes created pointless conflict, so that he could then be pointlessly cruel. 

 

They were made a example, and he moved against his father because the man was weak. The action is also not seem bad in Westeros, so much so that Tywin uses that for PR... something he would never do with the RW for example.

5 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Pointlessly ordering the deaths of peasants he cares nothing about is pointless cruelty (I'm pretty sure he does this multiple times, and it serves no purpose other than to be cruel). 

 

He really doesn't. He send his army to pillage the smallfolk to force Edmure to make a bad move in splitting his force trying to defend everything, and it worked. The other time he let his dogs into the smallfolk was the sack of KL, and he also did that with a clear objective. 

6 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Forcing his father's paramour to walk around naked...because why? Because his father liked her and gave her jewels? served no purpose and was pointless cruelty. 

Both Tywin and Kevan saw that woman as a harlot that took advantage of their weak father and took possessions she had no right, she also "helped" Tytos in ruling the Westerlands and by the state of things there before Tywin it was a poor job. No before you start I don't find that okay, but by westeros standarts this action is not nearly as brutal or bad as what Cersei does to Alayaya.

10 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Tywin would order the same maiming in the same situation, and you know it, as long as the person to be maimed had no power (or he wanted to punish them). 

 

He would definily not. Tywin unlike Cersei has the common sense to read into Robert. He knew the man had no taste for killing children and he is not dumb enough to threat the daughter of his best friend. 

12 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Raping his son's first wife is pointless cruelty and has nothing to do with a logical decision. 

This is beyond cruel, but he also used that to turn Tyrion into a cynical and made Tyrion start to see things his way. Tywin did gain something from that mess.

13 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Treating his children like shit after they don't do what he wants is pointless cruelty. 

He does not do such thing. He is hostile to Tyrion and hates the dwarf, but he does not treat him poorly. He goes to war to rescue him, he let's the dwarf travel and spend his money on whatever he wants. He let him into his war council, made him hand, and when he goes after Tyrion is because the BS Tyrion said against Tommen, and for the murder of Joffrey.

Tywin is beyond nice towards Jaime that it's cleary his favorite.

Tywin is not great to Cersei, but he is far from terrible. He never goes after her, even when he sees her bs (when she puts the blame of Joffrey's words into Robert's)

24 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

So you are saying women who are raped should be forced to give birth to their rapists children?

...please stop jumping to the worst conclusion every single time...

25 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I just want to clarify, is that what you are suggesting?

That giving birth to that kid, would push her into a path directly oposed to the prophecy, and the kid would be also a shield for her bastards. 

27 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Arrgh, I'm not going to get into modern takes on abortion...but..

But you will...

29 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

o. You can't actually not understand why someone wouldn't want to spend 9 months of their life suffering and then actually risk death to produce the baby of their rapist. I can't believe you don't see reasons to not want that, other than petty pride. I think this take just lacks empathy man. Trust me, I can't speak for all women, but I can say I've directly been told by my sister, my mother, and my partner that they would abort a baby if they were raped. My extremely Christian mother said this. Come on man, have some empathy dude. 

And once again you go on and presume the worst and attack me...What should we do about this behaviour sir?

44 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Kevan is the kind of man who just obeys orders, however vile.

 

He really isn't. Kevan took part in all of Tywin's crimes and then later on took part on his niece humiliation and had the gal to say that Tywin would do the same... when is more likely that Tywin would kill every single person in KL before letting his daughter be put to through that.

7 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

1. This is important - Being successful...is not a mark of goodness. It is just as evil to be evil and good at it, as evil and bad at it. In fact, I would argue intelligent/successful people who are evil are bigger threat to the world than stupid/unsuccessful ones. 

 

I agree, but Tywin reacts to the incetives that Westeros give him. If being nice, polite and honorable was rewarded he would go for that route. He does not take pleasure in cruelty. Cersei does.

8 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

2. Cersei has reasons.

She doesn't. She has emotinos and lash out like a animal, goes after minor players for petty pride.

12 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Cersei's reasons for most of what she does in AFfC is to "forestall" a prophecy.

Some of her actions are for that reason. Framing Margeary, ordering the death of thousands of dwarves, demanding that Myrcella return to KL while ordering a hit on Tristane... none of the actions I mention have any relation with the prophecy (maybe the killing of her friend).

Going after the baby of Bronn for the name was pointless cruelty.

Going after Jon Snow had nothing to do with the prophecy.

demanding Arya to be maimed was pointless cruelty and had nothing to do with the prophecy.

aborting Robert's kid actually lets her closer to the prophecy and is also made by pure stupidity and petty pride.

Sending women to be tortured by Qyburn has no relation with the prophecy.

Cersei makes one enemy after another, part of that is because she is dumb sure, but a lot of that is just pure evil being self destructive.

23 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Honestly, I think it is fucked up when people "understand" Tywin's reasons. His reasons are just...personal gain of power, money, influence, and control. That's it. He doesn't give a shit about anyone except himself.

Yeah, I never said otherwise. Tywin is selfserving, and his evil actions are made to give him something. Cersei, like Joffrey does evil because she likes it and will keep doing evil even if is counter productive.

She gains nothing by that, it's just pointless cruelty.

Why keep making excuses for Cersei and Jaime ? They are worse than Tywin.

Say what you want about Tywin, the guy does not do pointless actions of cruelty . He always has a cause and something to gain from it or it's punishing something that he perceived as a insult. He is very pragmetical and lack any sort of ethic and moral boundries but he is not a pure evil. Jaime and Cersei are closer to that.

Jaime made fun of a mother after telling her that he threw her child of a tower and made him cripple, he also mocked her husband death , he had no reason to act like that, nothing to gain and he actually had something to lose there(If I was in Cats place he would be a eunuch and later a cripple.), but he did it anyway. Jaime tried to kill Arya and Jaime ambushed Ned and was smilling when Ned's men died and he had nothing to gain by doing that, so much so that he had to flee the city after. The only good deed this monster did in the whole five books was rescueing Brienne from the bear. Everything else is the guy being self serving, cruel, pushing the blame on others. I dont get this bs about redemption. Jaime never says that he was wrong, he resents the judment that he received for his poor actions but he keeps inflicting injustices wherever he goes.

Cersei is cleary more evil than Tywin and probably worse than Joffrey. She has just as much attrocities on her resume as him, but unlike Tywin she does not have any result to show for it, and neither has a reason. She sold kids into slavery, she mocked a victim of rape, she ordered a hit on a baby because she didn't like the name, she send several people to be tortured by Qyburn, she raised Joffrey, tortured he baby brother, killed her friend over paranoia, she kept tauting Ned and Robert for no reason, she wanted to have Arya maimed, she aborted Robert legit kid(that would be to her advantage if it lived),  she ordered Alayaya to be tortured... I'm just putting the ones she had no reason to do that and were pure cruelty for no gain... Maybe even the plot to kill Tristane can enter on that list, and I'm sure I am forgeting plenty.

Cersei> Joffrey> Jaime> Tywin> Kevan> Tyrion>Genna>>>>>>>>>Lancel>>>>>>>>>Myrcella>Tommen.

2 hours ago, James Steller said:

That in itself changes a lot. No death of Joffrey at the wedding, Tyrion isn’t put on trial, Oberyn isn’t killed in a trial by combat, Tywin isn’t shot by Tyrion… though to be fair, Oberyn might very well have poisoned Tywin, but then that changes things too.

Not just that, it could change the whole war.

If Joffrey is killed by a mob, what does that tell the Tyrells about the strenght of the Lannisters when they cannot even protect their king from a bunch of hungry peasants?

With KL starving and Cersei in charge sending threats to the smallfolk, that would also show that the lions are not untocheables, KL could rebel against the Lannisters as whole, there were people calling for Stannis and Robb after all.

Here my sugestion for people that are still not mentioned: 

Halfhand, Squire Dalbridge, Donal Noye, Yoren and Courtney Penrose.

On 10/12/2023 at 4:42 PM, BlackLightning said:

Well of course, I'm not saying that they show up for the wedding carrying Martell banners and screaming "We are here to celebrate and commemorate this union on behalf of all of Dorne!"

Quentyn traveled to Meereen bearing a false name under falser pretenses and asked for a private audience. Barristan (and to a lesser extent, Belwas) did the same. There's no reason why any of the Martells or any other anti-Lannister, anti-Baratheon Dornishman couldn't do something similar at the wedding. Or in Vaes Dothrak. Or Qarth.

Jorah would also have to be an stupid to the Martells like that. Even if he was so stupid, Varys wouldn't be. He'd take it as an invitation to actively include them in his masterplan for the realm...and doing so would definitely speed up the process.

Viserys would for sure be dumb enough to turn that into public information. Daenerys herself tell us that.

I don't see why Doran needs a Targeryan to go after Tywin... I don't even see why he would prefer Viserys over Stannis or Renly.

I don't buy that Doran hates the Baratheon and wants to end their dynasty. He cleary hates Robert for refusing him justice, but Doran goes out of his way to make it clear to the sand snakes that Myrcella and Tommen are not Tywin, I don't see why he would blame Renly that was 6 and trapped in Storm's End for the murder of his family.

Stannis and Renly are not guilty of Robert's wrong doing, just like Viserys and Daenerys are not guilty over Aerys and Rhaegar's actions. His family was wronged by the Targeryans just as much if not worse than by Robert, it was the dragons that public humiliated his sister and used her and her kids as hostages to drag them into a war they caused, and them when everything was lost kept her in the city to be sacked while left Daenerys and Viserys safe at Dragon Stone, the castle where Elia should have been.

Renly has a huge army, and two regions at his command while Viserys is a cast out without a single sword to command. The only point if supporting Viserys over Renly is if Doran was a legalist like Robb, which he isn't, or if he was just like Tywin and wanted his family to be part of the royal family which seems odd and out of character.

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Just think what would've happened if Quentyn, Arianne, the Sand Snakes or -- better yet -- Oberyn had been made to present themselves to the Targaryens at Daenerys' wedding to Drogo...just like Jorah Mormont. It would've been so easy for that to have happened.

 

I don't think that it would go well. Jorah still reported to Robert at that point, if anyone from the Martells makes a public visit there it would be no diferent than  declaring open rebbelion. Even if Jorah fails to report, Viserys would be for sure dumb enough to make it public knowloge.

7 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

The alliance between Renly and Doran was almost impossible, he never considered Baratheons the rightful monarchs, then Renly doesn't care about Elia and her children, he did well by doing nothing during the war, Tully, Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, they had a role in the downfall of the Targaryens, so it was good watching them killing each other. 

We must tell the truth, Renly had the weakest claim

Targs are more to blame for the demise of Elia and her kids, than Stark, Tully or Baratheon.

It was Rhaegar that started the mess and public humiliated his wife, Aerys that started the war, Aerys that brought Elia to KL to use her as hostage and Tywin that killed them. 

Renly was 6 when everything was going down and trapped in Storms End. Blaming him for what happened is not diferent from blaming Viserys or Daenerys.

2 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I think one of Theon's big mistakes (aside from the moral one of not visiting his mother), was not getting married to a woman from one of the major families on the Iron Islands. Showing off Jaime's golden armor might have been a good idea too, but Robb and Theon never expected that Balon would have an asinine plan to invade the North while the Lannisters were on the backfoot and the Westerlands was ripe for the taking. They could have taken Fair Isle, destroyed the Lannister fleet and sacked Lannisport. That would have been a far better decision on Balon's part.

Yeah. There is no way Theon would ever think that his father hates him and blames him for his own failures.

Balon would hate Robb even more if Robb married Theon into the Starks...

Balon would not see that as Robb treating him as a ally of equal footing. He would see that for Robb trying to plant a Stark puppet on his seat and trying to use them. Balon does not want Theon to suceed him, he wanted Asha, he hated Theon and hated the Starks to a point he prayed for his own son's death.

Robb already did a lot for Balon in his part of the deal, he showed a lot of good faith by returning Theon to Balon, he reconized Balon titles and would support him in futher conquest. Balon was just a idiot that threw that away to pillage a barren land out of spite. 

The only way Theon could suceed in his mission, is if either Balon is dead, or if Theon instead of going directly to Pyke went to Hawlaw, build his support there from his blood ties, than went on to a another powerfull Ironborn family and married into their families, and with their support he forced Balon and Aeron to reconize him as heir while he also sells them the idea of raiding the Westerlands, showing Jaime's golden armor as loot to impress them.

We all know Doran took no sides in the war of the five kings. We also know that he wants revenge of Tywin, by his own words he wanted to strip Tywin of everything that he held dear and only kill him after that. It's also clear that his revenge cannot be put in pratice without war.

During the War of the Five Kings, the Lannisters were surrouded in all fronts, they were facing multiple foes in multiple fronts. Jaime was a hostage, Tywin was cut off from the West, part of the mercenary hired by Tywin like a Tyrosh company and the trash under Vargo Hoat saw his weakness and changed sides. Everything was going bad for the Lannisters.

Tyrion even feared that Dorne could support one of the pretenders and gave them a free hostage in Myrcella.

Doran choose to sit on his hands, obey commands from Tyrion in placing his armies as a threat to lords under Stannis, they helped the Lannisters in ther war even if by declaration only. After that many set backs the Lannisters were able to win the war with the Tyrell alliance, they put down most of their enemies, and their position now is strong as ever. 

Doran lost tons of face by keeping the peace, his people wanted war, his plans after that are one big blunder after another. From Oberyn to Quentyn, even Arianne seems to be heading towards another blunder, and he will be fighting a war soon enough.

If Doran is willing to take the risk and support the Golden Company why not take the risk with one of the pretenders in the war of the five kings ? 

So was Doran smart in staying out of the war or did he waste a perfect oportunity to crush Tywin ? And if he did waste his chance who would be the better candidate to support ? 

1- Robb

2- Ned

3- Arya

4- Davos

5 - Theon

6- Oberyn

7- Tyrion

8 - Euron

Stannis could prevent the whole war of the five kings if he had just swallowed his pride and traveled to Winterfell either with Robert (like Renly did) or by himself.

Renly death is his fault but extending the war is Renly's fault.

Renly was the only party with enough strenght to finish the others, taking KL, and forcing peace on Robb on his terms with minimal concessions. Instead he took for granted the support of Dorne and Stannis, took a message of alliance from Robb and tried to send a threat, marched against his brother that was not a danger to him instead of the Lannisters and paid the price.

To respond to the topic.

Everybody that joined the KG before Aerys being King is noble and is also a victim of a eternal vow when they cannot forsee the future and the type of king they would come to serve.

Everybody that swore the oath after Aerys being cleary mad are human trash. (It was not clear that he was insane and cruel at the start)

11 hours ago, Willam Stark said:

Screwing his sister was part of it, but he joined the Kingsguard because it was a honor for him and wanted fame like all young knights. Besides, he cared about the smallfolk and killed not only Aerys but also the other pyromancers after the Sack to protect them, that's what makes him a true knight. He wasn't a teen when the Tysha incident occured, since he was 20 years old and became a shithead in adulthood.

No.

He joined without any intention of staying true to his vows. He joined to run away from a match with Lysa Tully, and to screw his sister.

Jaime never cared about smallfolk, he let his sister in law be raped, lied to his brother about it and screwed his sister.

Jaime killed the king he sworn to serve not to save anybody but because he wanted and kept the wildfire plot that still can kill everyone a secret because of his sulk pride after losing in a staring contest against Ned.

Later on the man tried to kill 2 inocent kids and had the gal to brag about it to their mother.

Jaime uses his vows to run away from the responsability of his actions. Barristan has more time as KG, also served Aerys and nobody can deny the honor of the man.

Barristan also had a crush, but never acted on it, he defended the king even when the man was worthless, he protected the inocent when he convicend Aerys to spare a young Dontos, he joined Ned in going against the murder of Daenerys and the list of noble actions keep growing.

1 hour ago, Ser Arthurs Dawn said:

If Rickon survives I feel like he would be one of the more likely candidates. If Robb's will is brought up, do you think it would complicate matters? I imagine that would invite more conflict, not necessarily between the Stark kids, but rather the Northern lords. Does legitimizing Jon and making him an heir actually put him before the trueborn Stark kids? Or would he still technically be further down the line of succession?

I don't see Jon usurping his brothers. If worst came to worst, Jon would be like a Artos Stark figure and be a regent.

Unless the whole ressurection chips away some of his virtue and/or incress his desire for Winterfell.

I don't see anyone right in that situation. The Baratheon brothers are a mess, and sadly Robert is the most capable, the better man, the one with most sucess, charisma and sympathetic of the three by a large margin. This does not makes Robert a decent man, but his brothers? 

Renly, the negative side.

Renly cleary has a inferior claim, and has no right to throne, if the Lannisters must be overthrow than he should have at the very least reached Stannis that is the natural oposition to them and should be his natural and blood alliance (people went to Daemon Blackfyre for the rebellion for example). Instead Renly decided to march against his brother when he wasn't a threat, ignored his main objective for a side quest and paid the price.

Renly the positive side.

Even though is clear that Renly is ambitious, we are also show cleary in the books that he did not intedent to be king, he wanted to replace the Lannisters with the Tyrells and grow his own influence in court, he tried that with Margeary ploy, and later on he attempts to push Ned to make a coup and be the regent for Joffrey. Renly doesn't know about Stannis intentions since the fool missed the political time when he was too busy brooding alone, and Renly could not waste time when he head was on the chooping block.

Stannis the negative.

Stannis never comunicated his plans with his brother, can't prove his point, had better alternatives like trying to gain support in Dorne or Vale, making alliance with Robb, but instead went directly for his brother throat. Stannis also missed the time to make his claim because he was too busy sulking, and before all this mess Stannis had the chance to inform Robert, but choose to let his king brother to die, ignored royal summons and later on has the gal to call others traitors.

Stannis the positive side.

He has the better claim. Stannis was also testing the waters before making his declaration, when he attempt to convince the Stormlords to his cause, but they choose Renly instead of him. Stannis also attempt to talk with Renly, but the younger was too busy making a mockery of his older brother.

Both of them were cleary ready to commit fraticide, both of them after being presented with the oportunity wanted to be king, and both of them screwed each other... the irony is that if they just stayed put, there is a good chance that Robb never proclaimed KiTN and  goes on alone to kicks Tywin's ass. 

53 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Funny how these things go. The Cat-hate in the fandom was very strong a few years back.

There are readers that hate Jon Snow, or that defend Cersei's actions...some people are just weird.

49 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

I wonder if the "Robb and the Blackfish gaslit/pressured Edmure into the marriage" is show creep. The conversation and circumstances were quite different on screen (as were some of the characters), but roughly the same notes were hit: Edmure had inconvenienced Robb strategically, they needed to restore the alliance with Walder, Edmure was to marry a Frey girl to seal it, so it's the kind of thing that infects recollection of the scene.

In fact, on the page, Robb and the Blackfish acknowledge that they're not in a position to tell Edmure what to do regarding his own marriage, but that it would be really helpful if he went through with it.

I think the fandom really likes Catelyn. And she is the POV of the situation so she comes of as more sympathetic.

She is the voice of reason that is ignored several times, in favor of a chauvinistic bias, on other ocasions she is overruled by her kid son, and she seems to suffer the major consequences of others actions and she feels powerless.

But she has much more agency that people give her credit, and she is also wrong on several moments and even from the start of the books we are presented with actions of madness from her when she is pushed to the extreme.

Robb on the other hand is very daring, strong willed, has a good sense of morals but is also fairly entitled, proud, quick to anger and imature. Robb is a dick to Edmure on several ocasions, none that is relevant to any major event. Usually this is show when Edmure's fail to understand Robb's self imposed honor in the Karstark situation or when Edmure calls him a kid before he marches west.

Personaly Cat POV is my favorite in the series and I think she is the best written character but people mix her and Robb's actions, and since Catelyn usually sees Edmure a her sweet kid brother over and over again and Robb is in general a dick towards him and is his liege, people mix that to Robb forcing Edmure to marry.

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I like Robb, but the way I read it, he was trying to pressure Edmure into marrying a Frey to make up for his broken betrothal. Edmure's a good man. Probably a better man than Hoster morally, but he doesn't have Hoster's strength. The way I read it, Hoster was a very formidable lord.

I don't think it is the case. Robb does not come with the idea to marry Edmure, Catelyn does it. When the match is set later, Robb still does not pressure Edmure, but he is cleary pissed at Edmure's reaction, Catelyn on the other hand keeps pushing Edmure, Blackfish points the finger at his own hypocrisy but still uses Edmure's words against him.

Quote

“The Others take his pride! I will not be shamed in my own hall. My answer is no.”

Robb gave him a weary look. “I will not command you. Not in this. But if you refuse, Lord Frey will take it for another slight, and any hope of putting this arights will be gone.”

“You cannot know that,” Edmure insisted. “Frey has wanted me for one of his daughters since the day I was born. He will not let a chance like this slip between those grasping fingers of his. When Lothar brings him our answer, he’ll come wheedling back and accept a betrothal . . . and to a daughter of my choosing.”

“Perhaps, in time,” said Brynden Blackfish. “But can we wait, while Lothar rides back and forth with offers and counters?”

Robb’s hands curled into fists. “I must get back to the north. My brothers dead, Winterfell burned, my smallfolk put to the sword . . . the gods only know what this bastard of Bolton’s is about, or whether Theon is still alive and on the loose. I can’t sit here waiting for a wedding that might or might not happen.”

“It must happen,” said Catelyn, though not gladly. “I have no more wish to suffer Walder Frey’s insults and complaints than you do, Brother, but I see little choice here. Without this wedding, Robb’s cause is lost. Edmure, we must accept.”

“We must accept?” he echoed peevishly. “I don’t see you offering to become the ninth Lady Frey, Cat.”

“The eighth Lady Frey is still alive and well, so far as I know,” she replied. Thankfully . Otherwise it might well have come to that, knowing Lord Walder. The Blackfish said, “I am the last man in the Seven Kingdoms to tell anyone who they must wed, Nephew. Nonetheless, youdid say something of making amends for yourBattle of the Fords.”