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Azarial

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  1. I thought I was one of the only ones that had this suspicion. Nice to see someone else got the same impression. The true beauty part is what made me wonder if it was possible given Vary's seeming to think Aegon was the real deal when talking with Kevin. Well, that and Ashara's death, there are hints in the wording around that as well, especially if her baby was with Brandon. Actually I've found a few clues to it being true. I don't think it's a strong theory yet, but I don't think it's weak sauce it just hasn't been fleshed out yet.
  2. I think he wrote her to show another aspect of the power dichotomy. She is showing how difficult it is for an outsider to rule a place because they don't know the culture, and don't know who they should trust, and as an outsider the people don't trust them regardless of their intent, or who they are as a person. She is also showing how one person making calls on justice on a case to case basis is inherently flawed. She has no standard set of rules and it causes her a lot of difficulty. We are shown by characters like Jamie and Jon how strict rules with no room for interpretation or circumstance is flawed, she is showing the opposite extreme to that. George is showing both extremes and their pitfalls so that he can establish a middle ground in the end without it coming out of nowhere and feeling unearned. I don't see how her failing to win negates her character. If she loses and lives I think it would be very interesting to read how she handles that. Likewise, I think her letting that dream go in order to save Westeros instead of defeating it would be a fantastic arc for her. Remember she didn't want Westeros, Visery's did. From the moment she started living his goals and dreams and forgot hers she has been unfulfilled and unhappy. She wants a home (not Westeros, a real home) and a loving family. She will never get that if she wins, so her getting the throne means she as a character loses on a personal level. Perhaps you should ask yourself why you think her winning a throne she never wanted, and ruling a country she hasn't seen since she was an infant, and even then she was only on Dragonstone she has never been to Westeros proper, all while making her to miserable forever is the only way for her arc to have meaning? Then ask yourself what other ways of ending her story would give her arc meaning. Then you'll have your answer. I'm assuming you connected with her on a personal level, not just with her arc of becoming queen, so think about what you connected with when Visery's was still alive and she wasn't dreaming of being queen, and think if he lived what would you want for her in the end? Whatever that answer is, her rediscovering that goal/dream will give her character arc meaning. For me it was her desire for a home like the one with the red door, and a loving family and personal security and I don't want her to give that up to become queen as we've already seen what giving up love for a crown does to a person and Cersei 2.0 isn't how I want Dany's story to end. Someone born and raised there who knows the people and the culture. I also don't think anyone could rule the whole thing effectively. I think it should be broken into at least 4 parts-The far north (I'm assuming the wall and Nights watch are going to be gone), the north, central, and the south AKA Dorn. As it is too big, with to many separate climates and needs to be effectively ruled as one country prior to technology existing. If it were broken into 4 kingdoms, there may be a great king or emperor over the other 4 who would be more of a figure head, and we know who that is. I don't get him as a day to day ruler, but a figurehead I can see. And some new checks and balances, GRRM doesn't strike me as the type to put in an absolute ruler. I never thought she was a Mary-Sue, and have never bothered to discus anything with anyone who is calling any character a Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu, as I don't think anyone making those assessments is being honest about the characters. I find the whole picking sides and arguing thing tedious as it detracts from being able to discuss the story objectively. And the people who call characters Mary/Gary tend to be the ones arguing for one sole character and use this to try and discredit the other characters they perceive as being in their way.
  3. There is a lot that people who compare her to a psycho chose to ignore. Her empathy with the Waif. Her horror at what she experienced through her first face. Her seeking to know what people did to deserve death, not being willing to kill blindly (I don't think the FM take on blind killers, this was a test and she passed). They don't want the people to be judged based on emotion, they look for the impartial truth. So much of her training is about this, like a judge in modern times. Her caring for Weasel and the others in the Riverlands even when she knows she'd be safer alone. Her going to try and save Gendry after he was captured instead of abandoning him. Her willingness to forgive the Hound enough to not be willing to harm him (not enough to send help, but still!) despite her hating him longer than any other character. Her love of her family, psychos don't feel love. They only mimic it. Her clinging to reminders of home and family. Her longing for her family and safety. These aren't the things psychos think about, or do. There are very few true psychos in the books. And no main characters that I can think of. Roose is the closest to a true cold psycho I can think of. He's cold, emotionless, his son was murdered and he just accepted it and declared the murderer his heir. That is a psychopath.
  4. I'm not arguing that I believed that lol. But we aren't told so it is the most extreme option, no matter how unlikely. Most likely is that Howland dealt with the bones, and Ned dealt with Jon ensuring neither was ever linked with the other, and explaining why only Ned was mentioned as going to Starfall. I was simply giving an example of the worst possible thing Varys could have said to Robert. The if Robert heard this Ned would have to lie extreme end of the spectrum of possibilities. I hadn't really thought of what Robert heard, and your option never occurred to me as most people seem to think he heard nothing (silly) or that Ned, Howland, and Wylla all stayed together and made up a story (some that Ashara was also involved) that Varys then relayed(complicated). But my belief of Ned and Howland split up, agreeing to meet at the port near Starfall at a set time, fits pretty well with yours as it removes the complication of there being a second lord present as a possible father. Having Ned, a woman and a baby riding up like a family really works with your theory. And that's my current head cannon until GRRM says different. Plus we have an example of this sort of action with Brienne and Pod, as well as Dunk and Egg, so why not here too.
  5. I always thought he'd hear something. Just wasn't sure what. It could have been Ned turned up with Lyanna's body and a baby and nothing else for all we know. Exactly what was reported would impact if Ned would need to lie. Since Vary's would be trying to win over Robert he would want to tell him something big. That is why my mind never went to something as simple as your explanation. But now that I've heard the missing piece I like it, really. This part I've seen you explain before, and it always made sense to me. It was just the one detail about how the past conversation would have gone that previously kept me from being fully sold on the Ned wouldn't need to lie at all even in the past, I was 90% sold on this theory working before and now I 100% get the theory, and it does fit.
  6. I've heard your thoughts on his conversation with Robert in the main story, and the Starfall stuff, that I always found reasonable, but this is the first time I've read how Robert would hear about it and ask in a way that Ned could answer honestly. That was always the biggest hole in this theory so I'm glad you cleared that up. I just hadn't heard your thoughts on how Robert would link it to the wetnurse, and knew Ned had to have told him something based on the conversation, and had no theory of my own. Simple as that lol. I could go either way on this as it is just a common phrase, so may not have any added meaning, and don't think it changes anything regardless. The fact that Cat is recollecting how she felt about a very general acknowledgement as apposed to recalling a specific event remains the biggest tick against taking her statement at face value regardless. I just see 'the whole north to see' bit as her being melodramatic as it was an emotional thing for her.
  7. I thought it was both a red herring, and symbolic clues. Ned took Dawn/Jon to Starfall. Dawn/Jon are on their respective walls waiting for someone worthy to wield them. White wolf/white sword etc. All linked back to Syrio telling Arya she is a sword, meaning in prophecies and legends, swords can be people. No idea what that means in the long run though since Dawn/Jon is just waiting at the moment. But if Darkstar gets the sword, then maybe Jon will have someone unworthy try to wield him like Stannis? If Edrick gets the sword then Jon will be wielded by someone worthy, likely Bran/Bloodraven? As to the lightbringer symbolism, if RLJ is true, and he is true born then he would be a flaming red sword symbolically. Then we are given the stone wolf pommel, and ugly wood hilt symbolism. Linking to his Stark blood being significant as it gives him a symbolic hilt allowing someone to wield him safely. Dany is also a red sword, but has no hilt, as she's pure dragon. This is why Illyrio and Vary's can't control her and their plans keep getting wrecked, making them look bad and unreliable to Aegons crew. I don't have a fully fleshed out theory or anything, just noticed some strong symbolic parallels. Of course this also ties in to the Ice=Oath keeper+Widows wail, both of which are red. So that's one of the reasons I've never made a full theory as the clues and parallels seem to cover multiple swords. Although, LML did have that theory about Dawn being the original ice (that's what set me thinking on this in the first place) so maybe all 3(4 if you count intact ice) of these swords symbolism is linked.
  8. If Jon was proclaimed as Neds son by the wet nurse then, then Ned says his usual, "He's my blood, that's all you need to know." Cat could see that as him proclaiming him as his son since it would take a previous belief, and say just enough to confirm it in her mind. No crazy manipulation or scheming necessary on Ned's part. Have Howland hire a wet nurse, send her and Howland north. She asks Howland who the baby is and he says the kid is Neds, easy. And based on the story his kids tell Bran, making up these manipulative stories seems right up his alley. Not saying it's the only option, or the most likely, simply that this is one way that Ned doesn't have to be all devious, and people are still told Jon is his son. Or it's Wylla, and she takes it on herself to do this. Claiming Jon as hers may have been her idea. If she was hired by Rhaegar and the kings guard they must have trusted her. Then Ned only needs to lie once to Robert. After she claims he's hers at Starfall and says he's Neds at Winterfell Ned doesn't need to say more than the he's my blood thing, as the people have already been primed to view him as his son. As to the sons plural thing. It would be really odd to say what has my son and my blood gotten into to. And calling each by name would seem to formal for the situation. I'm guessing most of the time he just calls him Jon, when questioned he's his blood, and when referring to a Jon and Rob together it's son's or children for simplicity more than anything. I don't know, Ned making an announcement declaring Jon his son just seems out of character for Ned. And taking Cat's statement at face value implies that this is what he did. At most I can see him telling a few select people, and even then I'm guessing they'd have to confront him with questions and assumptions first based on what we've seen of his actions in the main story. He does appear to be trying to stick as close to the truth as possible, I think Corbon is right in this. I'm not convinced he never lied, but if he did they would be very concise, and necessary for the safety of a family member in his mind, as that seems to be the only time he lies. Cat's statement seems more like her remembering how it felt to her, than reality. To her it would have felt like she was shamed in front of the entire north, by Ned declaring this. But this just seems really unlikely to me.
  9. But the issue that was stated in the text was that summer had lasted so long that they knew winter would be coming, and no one would want the lands with winter approaching. It's a 9 year summer, and if this plan was thought of prior to summer waiting for spring wouldn't be stated as the reason they waited. That means this plan was thought of in summer, and likely not in the first year of summer either. That places us at 5-6 into his rule at a minimum. Then it has to be long enough for Jon to be old enough to understand that he could have been one of those lords. He didn't even realize he couldn't rule Winterfell until he was sparing with Rob, as we're shown in Dance. We see that Bran is just learning how to spar when he is seven, and not at the level Jon and Rob were shown to be at in that memory, so likely they were at least a few years older so 9 years old if not older. That is only 5 years before the start of the story, and would be 4 years into the summer. Them believing a 4 year (or more) long summer must be near it's end and choosing to wait for spring to establish new holdfasts that would need time to build/repair structures and create food stores isn't unreasonable. How long Lords rule for on average doesn't change the logistics of setting up new lesser houses, and the concerns over winter approaching. It's not like they can just build a house in a year and run to the store to buy food. Only a poor leader wouldn't think about logistics and the fact that most summers are much shorter than this one freakishly long one. Something he had no way of knowing in advance, and it's stated that he was waiting for spring. Rickard was executed, I don't think he was concerned about that happening to him prior to the current story, he was wrong not to worry as we all know but he never feared for his life or safety until Cat placed those fears in him. We're shown this pretty clearly. So he wouldn't rush this and place the new lords and their bannermen's lives at risk from being unprepared for winter, especially knowing that longer summers mean longer winters, over some fear of him dying young. I just don't see any indication in the text that this was a concern of his.
  10. I hope not, I can't have the abomination be the only ending we get! But, realistically his plots don't simplify as time goes on, so it is an unfortunate and realistic possibility.
  11. In the past the gift was settled by peasants, and they kept getting attacked by the Wildlings. The idea seems to be Lords, plural as they would have the resources to defend the people that live there, something the nights watch was unable to do. Then taxes would go to the nights watch since the intent of the gift was for them to use it for food and income, and the peasants would have given them food prior to them fleeing south. So their is no cost to Winterfell. The land is already paying taxes to the nights watch (in theory) and their Lord would be the LC. Eddard just wanted to place more lords there in order to protect the people there, while leaving the rest the same. There is no vow considerations as people have lived there in the past, it's a non issue. Think of it along the lines of LC would become warden of the watch, with those new lords sending resources and taxes to the watch. Since he said new lords, that would be peoples younger sons who would be otherwise landless. This would be Jon and Rickon, from his household and equivalent men from other noble houses. If we think of the 19 castles, and use that as a guide for how many holdfasts the new gift could support this implies land for at least 19 new lesser lords, possibly more depending on how much of the gift is given to these new lords. As for who would they fight for, the shield against the Wildlings implies that they would support the NW in times of need. As to the rest, Ned was only in charge 14 years. He was not prepared or expecting to become Warden of the North, so would not have had any plans laid out. So implying that this means he was not serious is disingenuous. Ideas take time to form and this would only happen after seeing a need, then time to brainstorm various ideas, select the best idea and make a plan, then execute. It seems he notices an issue, likely because Ben mentioned it. We know new recruits are kept away from their families for extended periods of time, and that recovering from the war, and getting his bearings as Warden of the North, new husband, new father etc. would take a long time. His whole life was upheaved by the war. He then took the time to think of a solution, and then create a plan with Ben. The issue was time, and it was only discussed when Jon was old enough to be part of the discussion and to have processed what it meant for him and his future. This isn't a plan they sat on for years on end. They were waiting for spring, it was planned they just needed the LC to agree. It's right in the text.
  12. The main clues we have are greenseers being metaphorical giants, and Harrenhall being made to the scale of giants, with weirwood beams etc. Then Dany's vision of the Others reaching the Trident. So the most plausible reason seems that the survivors make their last stand at Harrenhall under Brans direction, and that he is the one who tells them how to survive. Shelter, survival, food, and a link to the Gods (that the Seven followers may adopt after seeing what goes on as the first men are said to have done in the first long night), are all pretty reasonable reasons to declare someone a King. Especially since the Riverlands has intermarried greatly with the North in the past (Creigans troops for example) meaning there are a lot more old gods followers than many seem to realize. Stannis took the storm lords and the lords pledged to Dragonstone north, and they will likely turn to Jon when/if Stannis dies, linking them to the north. The Stoney Dornish could join the North because of the bond between the Daynes and the Starks, especially Arya and Edrick. Sansa will Bring the Vale. Half of the Ironborn are already trying to join the north via Asha and Theon, and are currently with Stannis. So house Stark would have the support of many of the kingdoms with no need to wage war. All they need to do is protect people to earn their loyalty. "Save the realm to earn the crown." As Stannis/Davos said. The big thing will be how does he reach there from north of the wall. But I'm betting on the underground river that goes to the sunset sea, since the sunset Kingdom is the other name for Westeros, I figure that river will take them home.
  13. I interpreted that scene as him adapting a useful strategy, and discarding the rest and Stannis disliking the tactic at first, but he used that tactic in the end, and it worked. This was more showing Stannis's flawed thinking in preferring traditional direct battle plans, over using goat trails, and trickery in how I interpreted it. But I can see that it's open for interpretation. He does seek advice though, he just chose his advisors poorly. He even thinks about how he's glad they aren't yes men as he wanted differing opinions. It's more that he doesn't understand the need to surround himself with people he can trust, choosing instead the ones most experienced in their area, not understanding that being the most knowledgeable in their area doesn't make them the best suited for a leadership/advisory position. He also didn't know how a bias against the Free Folk would impact their ability to advise him effectively, how could he? The alliance with them was very new, and he didn't even know he was being considered for LC and was pressured to make decisions in the moment with no time to think it over (Bowen). I view it more as him not being willing to demote them and replace them with someone better once their personal biases make it clear that they are ineffective advisors, as he is to used to a role being for life. Also him trying so hard to not show preferential treatment to his friends that he went to far the other way. He is very extreme (for a man in a feudal society) in his belief in you get what you earn, without understanding that leadership roles require more than expertise in a specialized area. The death changing him bit is true, but since we don't know how it's going to change him, and the resurrected characters all vary greatly, I try not to make assumptions on how he will be when he comes back. We don't know if he'll even be able to talk when he comes back. Him having a silent wolf, getting his throat slit, Dany's vision of silent wolf, and Lady Stonehearts difficulty speaking could mean he loses the ability to speak for example (thankfully he and Bran are telepathic if this does happen) but we just don't know. And if it enhances the traits shown when the person dies as many speculate, then we really don't know since no one agrees on what his main motivations were at that time. (Please, thread posters, don't discuss this here, as it would derail the thread, it's just an observation ) So I, personally, try to approach these questions based on how he was in Dance, and when we see what happens in Winds I will reevaluate. As basing things on how he might be when he comes back is just guessing. Fun and interesting, but way to many variables to say for sure when it comes to resurrection. Especially when many don't believe he actually died and won't have any magical changes. I don't know what I believe in regards to it all, and change my mind on what I think may happen often so refuse to use speculation on how he'll be post res. as a starting point for theorizing. Although analyzing all the possible changes and ways the various possibilities in regards to res./being in a comma etc. in isolation could make a fun thread. I've only seen this discussed in combination with other things.
  14. But Lord commander is an elected position, and he made those unilateral decisions in that capacity, nothing to do with blood right. I didn't mean to imply he was against him being in a position of power, it's the why that I think would be an issue for him. And he did the job, but was miserable as LC so I don't think a much larger role where he wasn't chosen, and didn't earn it would appeal to him unless there is a big shift over the next two books (and there easily could be) As for this: He was trying to show that he was old enough to make a life altering decision at his age, while drunk lol. And he was a hero to him for accomplishing so much when of an age with Jon. It's natural for him to be his hero, and was likely a hero of many young men in Westeros. But, if Jon thinks on what Ben said, and he thinks on everything people say to him being such a brooder, paired with everything he's seen as he grew up some over the last two years, I suspect his beliefs are now more in line with Ben's than his own original thoughts as he values protecting lives over earning glory. I'd be surprised if he still thinks costing 60k lives, with no long term gain other than songs and post humous glory, for no reason other than he wanted to, and felt entitled to rule a place his family has no real claim on simply because they listed it as one of their kingdoms is admirable. Kids and teenagers have all sorts of heroes that they themselves find laughable when they grow up a bit. And we know that in Dance he respects Mance more than Stannis, and Stannis more than the Lannister's. This shows he values a king that is chosen by the people over one that is entitled, and one that fights to save lives over one that fights for glory and titles, at this point in his arc. He's no longer a sheltered 14y old.
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