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Azarial

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  1. Azarial

    I hate the Starks, should I keep reading?

    Your take on some of the characters is very different from mine, and seems to have missed all character growth somehow, and attributes the flaws of one or two members (that are dead) to the whole family. Maybe from you skimming? That alone tells me you are already not reading the books, so why continue? You like the type of characters you like and GRRM likes the types of characters that you don't like. I haven't read his other works, but those who have say that the Arya type of character is a standard of his, for example. A plot similar to Brans with the CotF hive mind in the trees seems like something he has done before as well. And in his original outline, that admittedly there have been many changes from, he described Dany as the greater threat from the East. And one thing that doesn't seem to have changed is who the protagonists are, and who the anti hero's and antagonists are. In interviews he's likened dragons to nuclear weapons, and is well known for not liking war. So if you don't like the Starks, regardless of why, and the character you like is someone who has weapons of mass destruction, and wages war more often than not...Well, then you may not be the target audience for this series. Nothing wrong with that, it's an inherent issue of this story format where you have no villains and get POV chapters form both protagonists, anti-hero's and antagonists and all characters have good and bad traits, that some people will be attracted more to the anti hero's, and antagonists, and better to figure out now than after reading Winds, then waiting another decade+ for Dream only to hate the way the story ends. As for First Men, based on the name and link to a nature based religion, I'm guessing their name is based more on First Nations, as it's simply that they were the first men on Westeros that earned them that name in the story. The history of the Starks is anti annexing another culture, not saying first men blood and religion is good, Valyrian is bad. This is what Dany does, she goes in and uproots and entire culture. If that story appeals to you, fine, but I doubt that Valyrian cultural superiority because of their magic blood is GRRM's desired message. The Starks assimilated into CotF culture and religion in the end. We don't even know what their original religion or culture was. That is the is the difference, and it's not a double standard, it's just that GRRM is showing that he believes assimilating to a place you move to is better than up-heaving a preexisting culture. When Aegon conquered Westeros he took their main religion as his own, took Maesters with him for advice, spent years learning about the land, and only did so when there was someone who's existence posed a threat to the people. Dany disregarded the customs of the Dothraki when they didn't suit her, in Salvers Bay, she went in and attacked with knowing nothing about their culture, and resented every attempt the people made to get her to respect their customs. Jon assimilated into and learned about the Free-Folk, when he disagreed he explained why but didn't try and force them to change to his beliefs. When he needed to negotiate with them, he knew enough about them to do so in a way that they respected. If that message doesn't appeal to you, then I suggest you don't continue with the series. I have never felt like the story was forcing me to like certain characters, and wonder if that feeling you have is that there is a disconnect with some of the central themes of the story? I've had that happen to me with other authors, where their beliefs and mine didn't align, and I wouldn't read those authors again, regardless of how acclaimed or popular their works are. If your asking us for reasons to keep reading, sounds to me like you have already disengaged from the story.
  2. Azarial

    ASoIaF character poll

    30's Female Jon Catelyn and Cersei. Everyone else had reasons for the devastation they created, where these two just created unintentional chaos resulting in their family members being killed, all while praising their brilliance and blaming everyone around them.
  3. Azarial

    R+L=J v.166

    To bad for the realm as whole that Littlefinger lived, be it an accident or restraint as Cat believes. I believe that the Starks do have some wolf like behavior, and that is what you describe as impulse control, but I think that is only part of what we see in Jon. I agree we don't know how much damage was done when, but Emmett surrendered so this implies that Jon beat him, then didn't stop after the surrender. And Jon's thoughts on how tired he was prior hint at something more going on for me. Based on what little we know of Emmett, I think he would fight back until Jon stopped, or he was unable. But, he may have surrendered and taken a few blows before he realized Jon wasn't going to stop? If at the end of the fight, Jon still felt tired, but had just zoned out I'd agree. I zone out with the best of them! But, it's the anger paired with blacking out, paired with Emmetts state at the end when they were closely matched, but Jon felt beat prior and was going to call it. Him having the strength and energy to do that to Emmett, even if he wasn't fight back the whole time, just doesn't fit him zoning out from a bump on the head. I don't know, there is enough to make me question, but not enough to say for sure what happened. I think wolf blood, is wild wolf like behavior. Protecting the pack, that is the impulse we see from Lyanna. Or fighting off another man for a woman, Brandon. Or challenging another alpha to a fight to find out who's the real alpha, Brandon. Jon's instinct to attack Alliser, does fit this. What doesn't is the increased strength, and the anger, anger that in Emmetts case remains even after the fight. By contrast we are shown how a wolf acts in this situation when Bran is in Summer and challenges the alpha wolf so he can feed. There is dominance, there is challenge, but when it's over he is calm. I see where the difference with the wake the dragon interpretation comes from, so I'll try and clarify why I think this is a factor. First, as I stated up thread, I think Visery's has heard the term and doesn't understand it correctly. I don't think meanness and cruelty are a part of it. I think he wants so badly to be special, to have something that makes him a dragon that he's twisted the meaning in his mind. Just think of what he's been through and his age when he lost everything. This would be a very natural thing for him to do, he doesn't have a dragon, so him being a dragon is all he has to cling to. Then Dany learned the term from him. Yes, she also had the dream about waking literal dragons, but she then had a dream where she interprets waking the dragon not as something scary, it's being strong and fierce. Two words that describe Jon's berserker mode pretty well. He gets extra strength and ferocity. There are no shortage of tales of legendary Targaryen warriors, and many of those are considered true dragons in world, so... why trust the delusions of a scared isolated boy who was all of eight the last time he had a parent to teach him their family lore, over all the other information we have? He could have been told that waking the dragon was a form of battle rage, and associated that with anger and vengeance, or punishment. It's not much of leap, given the reasons people fight or go to war. Do we hear of anything just like Jon, nope, but what if we took the predatory/pack animal instinct of the Starks and combined it with the terms associated with waking the dragon in Dany's vision, increased strength and ferocity. Now we have reached something resembling what we see in Jon. The only thing not explained is the lack of awareness, but if that one piece was do to the knock on the head, possibly allowing these traits he suppresses for the most part to emerge unchecked then everything is explained. He thinks almost, then describes them in detail implying that he actually does see them. Jon loves to deny things like this, just like the flash about Benjen that he can't explain, but feels guilty for and assumes it was him wishing it because of Tyrion, even though all his other thoughts contradict this. The way he thinks about the other things you mention is practical, and functional. He's making note of how neglected the defenses are, how he thinks they should be. Picturing a dragon, has no practical reason, so they aren't really comparable in my opinion. Well, if Dany only links to fire dragons, Bran only links to ice dragons, Jon linking a bit to both doesn't seem that odd to me. And we know in World lore about Targaryens being the only ones who can ride fire dragons, but we don't really know anything about ice dragons, so it may not be as odd as it seems. Yeah, for me it's the common links that I find interesting. If these elements that overlap are more Targ, then the tree parts would be more Stark related. It's such a crazy dream, and like everything with him it seems to have elements of both, at least to me. You said, A dream based on pure knowledge isn't prophetic, it's just a normal dream internalizing the information he has learned in real life. That is how I interpreted what you said anyway. Could just be a miscommunication. On this we agree. I don't think either should be excluded, and as I said above, I find that there is imagery in his dreams that relate to both houses. But with Jon people tend to only acknowledge the Stark side. I think this is a mistake. The way imagery is presented in Bran and Jojens dreams, and how to interpret it seems different from how imagery is presented in Dany's dreams, or Mel's visions. So figuring out what each part relates to might help figure out what Jon's dreams really mean. Yes, that is my point. He grew up hearing stories of the Others riding literal giant ice spiders. What he saw, and related to spiders in this dream was nothing like the stories, thus wasn't from what you coined 'true knowledge.' This imagery was something new, that we've only seen in this dream. Yes, but there are several issues with Dany's thoughts on the matter. Her view can't be trusted, as she says it's the same and we know it's not because her hands are burned. We have no idea if her scalp was also tender, or peeling, or anything. She has convinced herself of this, but we have proof that her beliefs on what happened aren't accurate. She never thinks of the damage or pain in hands other than to note their improvement, but if they are blistered and weeping they were badly burned. And if her hair burned off as she flew, as per Barristan's observations, her face would be fine, as the wind would blow the fire behind her. So the fire would mainly be at the back of her head, so she could look at her reflection and seem fine, but have there be damage to the back of her head that she doesn't acknowledge, like her hands. Well, they raced to the bridge, and the wolf is said to be on the shore of the river the bridge spans, and Jon is on his horse still while next to Robb and is clearly visible, so the issue could have been space, not steepness. Bran can't see as he's on a pony and arrived behind everyone else. I think the mother was visible from the bridge, prior to Jon and Robb blocking the view. But, can see how it could be interpreted differently. That quote of him picturing smashing it always makes me wonder. But, given the size of the wall, it seems unlikely he could damage the wall its self. I suspect that his death, and the magic used to resurrect him may be what damages the walls magical defenses, more so than him literally smashing it. Or if he goes berserk after being resurrected and kills a bunch of Nights Watch members, making it a figurative smashing of the wall, I could see that. A combination of the two perhaps?
  4. Azarial

    R+L=J v.166

    I've always figured it would be Aegon, the whole symbolism around the number seven and if he were Aegon, and fAegon takes the throne as Aegon VI that would make Jon Aegon VII, seven kingdoms, seven gods, seven Aegons; especially when paired with the quote about Aegon V in the world book: Egg being the nickname for Aegon, so seven Aegons, and a link to the title of Lord Commander, seemed like a possible clue to me. Then we have GRRM putting the brothers Pate and Pate, and Dunk wondering if the mother didn't know any other names, bit in the Dunk and Egg novella's. And all the Walders and Walda's of house Frey, where every time he takes a new wife they name their kids either Walder, Walda or some variant. So kids with one parent the same and one different being given the same name is something GRRM has established, no matter how odd it seems to us. We have the hints hidden in how non main characters of the current generation are named too: Robert Arryn, Rhaegar and Aegon Frey, Wylla Manderly, Lyanna Mormont and Ned Dayne. No Ellia or Rhaenys so I take that to mean Aegon is linked to Robert, Rhaegar, Wylla, Lyanna and Ned. hmm that list sounds familiar... And of course the scene where Aegon Frey died involved two throats being slit, and someone being stabbed multiple times in a mutiny, that sounds familiar too, if we wind up with some cross bows being fired off in the aftermath at the wall, even better. If only there was a clear link, like the birth and death of one particular person... oh well. But, if there was a different name, I think it would be Balerion, or Bael, or Baelor, first because Bael names are linked to both the Targaryens and the First Men, so it seems fitting for a child of Stark and Targaryen heritage. Rheagar and Lyanna are similar to the Bael the Bard tale, so them having a son with a Bael name would be poetic. And the cat that belonged to Rhaenys, that Arya chased and gets the line about that black bastard is the true king of this castle is named Balerion and Jon is a black bastard on the wall, so that could be a possible clue too. But as much as I love the Bael names, or how nice it would be for him to have the name of someone he admired like Daeron or Aemon but, I'm still betting on Aegon.
  5. Azarial

    R+L=J v.166

    We don't have the full story for Brandon at Kings Landing, what we do know shows him yelling and talking so he may have been angry and stupid, but also appears to be fully in control and wanting duel. With Littlefinger he was calm enough to seriously wound him, but not kill him. He's an impulsive hot head to be sure, but I see no sign of him losing control. Ned gets angry, and grabs Littlefinger by the throat for what he perceives as a slight on his wife's honor. But as soon as Cat calls out he stops. He can be intimidating when angry as his eyes and face go cold, but he was never out of control that we're shown. Jon was tired. We are in his head, he got a good thumping and was tired and about to call it when he was hit, he thinks of something from his past, then when he returns to the present he is so angry that he says it's never enough. Then he realizes what he said and is ashamed and has no recollection of what happened. How does adrenaline explain losing all awareness of what he's doing? Why would a hit on his helmet while sparring, hardly an uncommon thing if I had to guess, result in an adrenaline surge of that magnitude in a guy who was tired, not near death, not excited, not angry?(confused and conflicted about the Stannis offer, to be sure, but he wasn't upset in that moment.) Adrenaline surges often come with increased mental focus and clarity not complete lack of it, it increases senses, Jon blacked out, doesn't fit. The effects when severe take up to an hour to wear off, Jon took about 30 seconds. I know it can increase strength, but what about the rest? You can't take one symptom in isolation and go yep, he's got that so this must be it, despite the rest of the symptoms being absent. Since Robb just stood there and did nothing but talk, that would be odd... It was Grey Wind who attacked Great Jon, he always had men around him in battle to support him. We never hear stories of his famed battle skills, just his brilliant tactical plans. So I'm not seeing it. Ned, too, has only shown normal anger. Show me an example of him going into a rage where he's unaware of his surroundings? Everyone gets angry, everyone does impulsive things on occasion, but that isn't what happened with Jon. I said he got flashes while awake, I never said unconsciously dreaming. The interesting thing was that he saw something similar to the other two, and after made a comment about a dragon or three, that's oddly specific. As for the hot pools Jon has never thought of them that way, that was Cat and they didn't exactly talk. And the thought was that the heat stripped the flesh from her bones turning her to bubbling pool of blood. There was no link to her becoming part of the life blood of Winterfell, this wasn't a happy dream about her belonging because the wildlings and first men were kin, he felt judged by his father, then he refused her affection and she died. The connection I saw wasn't fire, the connection was the flesh being stripped away by heat, and neither woman seeming distressed by it. But, that dream is strange to say the least so I'm not saying it means anything specific, just that there was a similarity. No one said it was needed to be a member of the nights watch, but I doubt most of the members of the nights watch are dreaming about screaming feed them fire while wielding a burning red sword. We're in Sams head, and he knows more about this than Jon, and he isn't thinking any of this stuff. And how can you say the part about them climbing the wall like ice spiders isn't potentially prophetic? No one else has linked wights to ice spiders in the story, only the Others riding them, but that isn't even close to what he dreamed. In the dream he killed his brother over the claim to Winterfell, and also his lover to light the sword, the stories he's told only mention a wife. But, we've seen the Azor Ahi candidates be linked to the death of their brothers. So how would he know this when no one else seems to? Stannis isn't even aware and he's one of the people that killed a brother. I'm not saying this is Targaryen, just so we're clear, I've already said that dreams like this can be either. I'm just addressing your comment about pure knowledge that he has. This has elements he knows and elements that he doesn't, but we as readers have enough hints to suspect there is something more than a straight up dream based on knowledge he has with some filler, especially when he has been shown to have prophetic dreams at other times, like with Sam drowning. I've never known someone burned like that, so can't say to the pain part. But, if adrenaline is a factor for Jon, it would be for Dany too. And I disagree that she wasn't impacted. Why would she have weeping blisters that she wrapped and tended too if she wasn't bothered? When Dany gets exposed to fire of one arm up the elbow, with no blood magic going on and doesn't burn, then I'll see her as different. But a hot spear doesn't compare to reaching into a fire, picking it up and throwing it. The spear is equivalent to touching a hot pan. They aren't the same. Or maybe their wolves are special in some way. Or he could have the potential but doesn't get wed to a tree. It's the link to a tree that makes a greenseer until then, he's a warg with prophetic dreams. We don't know enough for me to have an opinion on it one way of the other. Jon was also very emotional and distracted, and it's not the first time he's not noticed. It seems so natural to him that he seems to note the absence more than the presence of Ghost. So that makes it difficult to say. As for the first meeting, that was before they bonded so a different situation, it was almost like Ghost called out because he realized he was being left behind. No, but we need to call it something shorter than, when Jon blacks out and/or demonstrates abnormal strength and/or rage I don't think we've seen either side do what Jon does. It's just that the Targaryens seem to have heard of something that seems similar. Visery's talks about it but has never experienced it, I don't think it's common. Dany as well, she woke dragons, and draws power from that, but that doesn't mean she has ever woke the dragon in the sense that Visery's told her about. That Starks have the wolf blood, that seems more linked to wild reckless behavior, or acting on instinct. When I think wolf blood, I think Rickon. But, what we see in Jon may be a combination, the reckless animal instinct, combined with the power and rage. That's why I'm curious. Yep! That's what I suspect. I'm just not sure what this ability would allow him to do, that others can't. It's not like the Others are going to be defeated by a trial by combat or something like that, as that's just to simple.
  6. Azarial

    A middle lane view of Rhaegar and Elia

    I thought I was the only one who thought this! Rheagar and Elia had Visenya, a still born girl, the one Barristan said looked like Dany, and Jon is the Aegon that Aemon talked about with the red star, since that matches Neds vision of a sky streaked with blood, that based on the comet this time appearing shortly after Ned's execution seems linked to Starks dying in the south, so wouldn't have happened yet at fAegons conception. I also like how it ties in with Tywin wanting to keep Cersei at court in anticipation of Rhaegar needing a new wife to have an heir, and Rhaegar marrying/eloping/having a kid and legitimizing whatever in secret to parallel Tywin doing a rush wedding between Tyrion and Sansa, because of him finding out the Tyrells plans to try and marry her. And him saying they can't be offended if no one was supposed to know they intended to marry her because of the plan being a secret, implying Rhaegar and Lyanna kept it a secret and sent a male 'heir' to court because of Tywin. Then Aery's skipped fAegon as heir because he knew he was fake. Some of the inner circle would have known where Lyanna was clearing up the how did Ned find them issue. Add to that, that Rhaegar likely didn't know she was pregnant, nor anyone else at court, and that explains why Ned took such a small group to pick her up. He would have expected the kings guard to leave, since Lyanna wouldn't have been as important as the Targaryens fleeing to Dragonstone, since the rebels weren't a threat to her. Elia was a hostage, because the Martells wouldn't have been thrilled, especially with them not following male primogeniture like the rest of the realm. But, Rhaegar was well read and would know that the realm fell into war the last time the heir was a female starting the dance of the dragons, and that it could lead to a succession crisis with Visery's who Barristan said was showing signs of instability and cruelty already. If the baby that was swapped was Brandons, it explains why Ned went to Starfall to talk to her, and why she may have jumped from the tower believing both Brandon and their baby were dead. This then ties into the story told to Arya about the woman throwing herself from a tower when she heard her prince was dead, since the prince was her baby. If Brandon found out, it makes his reaction and storming into Kings Landing asking for Rhaegar to come out and die make more sense since it's his sister and his child that were taken. Add to that the red wolf symbolism around fAegon, and the whole Griff/Young Griff being the equivalent of Jon/Young Jon since Griff is Jon Connington and the symmetry of the swap feels pretty complete. And since the only two Kings guard left are Barristan, who says outright he wasn't in the inner circle, and Jamie who would never have been trusted with this info and them not knowing seems plausible. Vary's may have been oblivious because of it happening on Dragonstone, or he may know, but in the current story knows Jon is in the nights watch, so isn't concerned? Or he may think Jon is just the younger half brother, and that fAegon is real, who knows with him.
  7. Azarial

    R+L=J v.166

    I agree with what Ygrain said, how the reactions of the Starks when angry still fall within the realm of normal, but a teenager who looses all awareness and takes down a fully grown man, and master of arms at that, needing to be restrained forcibly before he even becomes aware of his surroundings is something very different. And while I have heard of people getting adrenaline fueled strength in rare, normally life threatening circumstances, where was the threat when sparring with Emmet? He got hit on the helmet and snapped into a memory and lost all awareness of where he was and what he was doing, their was no danger, he wasn't feeling threatened or scared. But something happened and it seems linked to rage, based on how he was thinking, no not enough, it's never enough, in regards to being asked if her heard Emmet yielding, and his friends saying that's enough. That reaction from Jon isn't the Jon we've seen throughout. And adrenaline doesn't explain everything that happened. Sure, dreams, green dreams, lots of people have dreams I never said any different. But there aren't lots of people dreaming of dragons, and there aren't lots of people dreaming of someone melting and having their flesh slough off their bones turning into a thick red bubbling pool when he refuses to kiss them, because of worry and shame over his father watching, and not wanting a bastard. It's not that he has dreams, it's what's in them. Ned's are all about things linked to the north, or his family, not a dragon or girl melting from the heat, or wielding a burning sword while yelling feed them fire. It's that these dreams are a bit fire and blood esque that is interesting, not the fact that he has dreams, or even prophetic ones. That's pretty standard stuff in this story. Dany grabbed a spear that was a bit hot from Drogons blood and got blisters on her palms that did bother her, as she wrapped them and thinks on how much they've improved but we don't see her in the healing process. Jon grabbed a ball of fire and used it as a weapon giving him burns over every inch of skin from the tips of his fingers to his elbow and we are in his head as he's healing. Context makes a huge difference here. What is significant is that he felt no pain while grabbing the fire, only while healing. Most people would never be able to stick there hand into a fire like that and pick it up because the heat would trigger their instinctive reflex to pull back. But he never felt the heat, or any pain while being burned. I don't think they are that different. Green seer is different from warg/skin changer. Jon saw Bran as a tree, he likely was connected to the Winterfell heart tree, not summer or was using the tree to bypass the wall. Bloodraven, is a greenseer in a tree. The 'theory' as you put it, is based on how Jon's powers were shown to work/not work in specific instances, and how that contrasts with Arya in Bravos, showing that range isn't a factor for wargs, so when Jon can't feel Ghost on the other side of the wall, or can't feel the other wolves there must be another explanation than distance. When he is north of the wall, he can't sense the other Stark direwolves, at all. He thinks about this, and is focused on it when he talks to Bran, who has no wolf smell, only death and soil, and looks like a tree. Then when Jon climbs the wall, he can't sense Ghost. He worries about where he is and if he understood to go to Castle Black from the moment they were separated. When they reunite he goes north of the wall, and sits to think. After he's been there a bit he senses ghosts hunger, so Ghost likely was staying close to the wall and sensed Jon when he went north. When Bran goes north Jon notes that he can't sense Summer anymore. Jon spells it out for us, the wall is a barrier to his ability. What Bran and Bloodraven can do is irrelevant, since Jon's thoughts have made it clear that he can't sense the wolves from the other side of the wall. Or it's just that the Starks, as his family, are what make him emotional, since he has a deep emotional bond with them and with Winterfell, since it's his home. I don't see why a link to the berserker mode would be based on him worrying about Stark issues specifically, as apposed to the strength of his emotions in general. But, what I'm curious about is what will this allow him to do in the future books? Regardless of what side of his family it all comes from. All the main characters with magic have something unique to them. Bran is a green seer, Arya can control wolves and cats, Dany hatching dragons is obvious, Jons seems to be this berserker mode. And Bran, Dany and Jon all seem to get visions. Starks are good with cold, Targs good with heat. It has to add up to something right?
  8. Azarial

    R+L=J v.166

    I always took it as Visery's didn't have these abilities, but had heard about anger waking power in Targaryen's and as a result acted abusive to make it seem as though he may have these powers appear if the right circumstance happened, or maybe he really believed if he got angry enough it would happen. He never understands things correctly, this is the guy that told Dany that Trargaryens were immune to disease for example, something we all know is false, a higher resistance maybe but not immune. So I never took his abusive nature to mean that the waking the dragon was linked to being abusive, or angry in a negative way as he always gets a tiny bit right, and whole lot wrong in his interpretation of things. I think it's both, but more so magic. I could be wrong, but he is the one who saw the magical significance of the wolves, by their numbers and genders and convinced Ned to let them keep them. His first kill was against a wight. He thinks about how taking his vows at the heart tree seems to have a magical impact on him. Even his compulsive flexing of his burned hand when angry seems linked to the magic side. I'm not saying there would be no political impact from RLJ, that would be silly. I just am wondering what his combined heritage may mean for the magic side, and the battle against the Others and the Long Night since his whole arc is revolving around the North, and far north. Any impact of a political nature is a long way off compared to any magical impacts of his heritage in my opinion, and I don't see it discussed as much, and am genuinely curious what things others have noticed about him, or the Starks, or the Targaryens, or even Bloodraven, that may give us some clues as to his potential in this area.
  9. Azarial

    R+L=J v.166

    Except this is when they were on opposite sides of the wall, and their connection blocked. Ghost returned when Jon went north of the wall after this, and the connection wasn't restored until he was well clear of the wall. The only linking from other sides of the wall involves Bran, as his powers don't seem to be impacted by the wall, but Jon's do. I think this was deliberate to show that it wasn't linked to Ghost.
  10. Azarial

    R+L=J v.166

    What story reasons beyond ruling, or making a claim would make RLJ have a strong narrative purpose? We see hints of his berserker strength, and see him have a rage where he doesn't seem to be in control of his body, or even be aware of what he's doing, that does seem linked to Visery's description of waking the dragon (Not that he seems knowledgeable on much, since he also told Dany they were immune to disease etc). Jon has prophetic dreams, some that seem to line up with some of Dany's dreams and HoU visions, like his dream of his lover (Ygritte is the representation in the dream) having her flesh melt and fall of her bones in his arms, and Dany having the dream of the black dragon breathing fire, burning her flesh off and scouring her clean making her stronger, seem to be two versions of the same thing. Tyrion sees dragons wheeling across the sky, Jon sees them coiling against a dark sky outlined in flame, Dany sees them cartwheeling I believe (so many dragon mentions in her chapters it's difficult to find the quote) There must be a reason for this right? I just think RLJ must be linked to the magic elements in some way, more so than the political elements since the magic elements are, and have always been, at the heart of Jon's story. Normally paired with him being taught that thrones are meaningless when facing a magical threat. His only political acumen seems linked to alliance building, and peace pacts, but those tend to be helped along by Ghosts actions and presence, so are still linked to the magic side of things. Our very first introduction to him, with the finding of the wolves makes his strong magical link clear by him being the first to establish a mental link to a wolf, and him being able to connect with Ghost wile fully awake, and conscious as shown by them reuniting in Dance. We know he can keep tabs on all the Starks through their wolves (and is the only one shown to do this) and talks to Bran when they are on opposite sides of the wall. Starks can withstand more cold than other people. Targaryens can withstand more heat than others. So I guess he can handle extreme conditions well? I just can't figure out how this all ties together, but know that it must.
  11. I 100% agree, but this also means we will likely never get the true ending given how slow GRRM writes... And I really want to know all about the fAegon, Euron and actual Stannis stuff...
  12. Oh, this post made me so happy. It gives me hope for what D&D's stupid ending, that tosses two character arcs out the window, could really mean. What if you're right and Conington brings grey scale to Kings Landing. Dany and Jon find out about it. Dany burns the city to prevent the grey scale plague from spreading, starting at the walls and moving in to the center, like we were shown. With troops killing those trying to flee, like we saw, but the motive is entirely different. Then, maybe she doesn't burn the red keep, or the throne and somehow gets infected because of this, and starts to go mad from grey scale and Jon kills her out of mercy, then melts the throne and burns down the red keep. Same end, Dany burns city, goes mad, Jon kills her, dragon melts throne. But, all of it is in character. Eliminating fAegon and Jon Con may be why this whole season felt so wrong. Until I read otherwise, this is my new head cannon. Because we have been shown that Dany will kill in large volume without needing to determine guilt of innocence of each individual, and this is a scenario where that quality is a positive. Another fAegon casualty as he should be the one going mad with power on the throne when Dany and Jon ride into town, with Tyrion working to crate peace with him as he is friends with all three of the Targs (or two and a fake, depending on how it plays out). And him being a man changes the narrative feel drastically. I do not for a second think the books will have the misogynistic feel that the show had. I feel the same. I suspect that the order is correct as it fits the prophecy of Water- ice is frozen water, and when the others are killed in the books they turn to water not ice shards. Cersei, even if she isn't the last one on the throne like in the show will still need to be dealt with and is a Lion. Then the love forging is the Targs, and the waking from stone stuff does seem to link this to the grey scale epidemic in some way. Most fans just took the prophecy to literally, as we were no doubt supposed to. But in the books the Free folk are described as a spear pointed at the heart of the realm. So if a people can be a weapon, and the realm is a heart... then the house/element that holds the realm or is defeated to save the realm would be the symbol. So I'm pretty sure this is the way it will go, just executed much better in the books. The Bran stuff makes me uneasy, as the whole thing feels sinister to me, and when I think of the books it feels even darker than the unease the show gave me. I kind of picture Brans end as being similar to how we see Hodor when Bran takes over his mind. So fitting, but scary at the same time. But, it fits with all the Pearl Emperor stuff if you think of his wives as Weirwoods, and carrying as him flying so... And when you think in terms of prophecy and 'brings the dawn' meaning brings the return of the Empire of the Dawn, and the regaining what you lost meaning the Starks descend from the Pearl emperor it does seem to fit, in a slightly horror vibe kinda way.
  13. Azarial

    Aegon Targaryen and the IT

    Yes, exactly! Some of the stuff she does reminds me of James Bond, and how all women love him and he uses it to his advantage, and causes destruction everywhere he goes yet everyone loves him anyway. She's like that, and it's great. A dragonbone bow and arrow that she can fire from dragonback for precise hits, would be a great weapon for her and/or throwing spears. Or if they did they sped read them only, and didn't bother to read the books that came out after GRRM signed on the dotted line.
  14. Azarial

    Aegon Targaryen and the IT

    Yeah, just the links to her using it that way were so weak in comparison to the red herring that most people seem to believe it's their own creation. Makes speculating the end difficult when their foreshadowing is very inconsistent. Right now it looks like Jon for the win, on Sunday they could give us a curve ball and have it be Arya steals Dany's face and rules in her stead, since they said she'd kill the queen, never return, could be a lady and wear pretty dresses so long as she took a face, and would kill anyone who would harm Jon. It's possible, but the narrative logic that would make this satisfying instead of just shocking would be lacking. That's what I have issue with when it comes to the show.
  15. Azarial

    Aegon Targaryen and the IT

    I agree that the main beats will be the same. But, the difference will be that when the twists happen in the books there will have been enough hints that it will feel right. I had Arya as an option for killing the NK in the books as there are hints, but they are very subtle as this is still a long way off. But the show just skimped on the hints and went for shock, over story. At some point it needs to make narrative sense. It's not that twists are bad, or that there is a magic cut off, but they should be shocking in a way where you go, oh how'd I miss that. And to truly subvert and shock to the end would mean that there would be no ending. And that wouldn't be satisfying.
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